Somalia in 1978 - Pics

[Rahima]

The issue is not whether a garbasar or malkhabad fulfill the conditions of hijaab but rather if the so-called tent is a foreign and sledge-hammer solution to swatting a fly, so to speak. The tent is a symbol, among others, that show a society that is regressing into gender inequality and oppression.

The garbasaar and malkhabad became an issue for this is what our people wore as a hijab. The only garbasaar which would be considered as a type of hijaab are the big thick ones and we all know only the old women really wore those. Just do us a favour, get all the photos of even the 70s and 80s, pay close attention to the style of dress of the many halimas and please tell me whether or not that is hijab. Our women have alxamdullilah come a long way with regards to the hijab.

 

Moreover, with all due respect adeer you sound like those non-Muslims who have this never-ending obsession with asking whether or not we are forced to wear the hijab. Has it ever occurred to you that many many Somali women chose to wear the jilbaab? To this day many many Somali women still choose to wear the jilbaab even in the west. I think that this quells the issue of force. That said, even if we do accept that it is a foreign form of the hijab, who gives and really what difference does it make?

 

Is it breaking the conditions of the hijab? No!

Is this particular style of the hijab been forced? No! No one is holding a gun to people’s heads, there might be pressure in some areas of Somalia, but there sure is no brutal force.

Finally so much of our culture is stolen anyway. The trousers that you’re probably wearing now, was that not originally foreign? Similarly, that shirt, and heck those shoes too . Let’s not forget our foods, spaghetti is thanks to our previous occupiers; likewise we chose to steal the sambuus from across the ocean. The trail goes on and on- point is, it doesn’t make a difference

 

I can’t say this enough, it fulfills the conditions of hijab and it is a choice that others have made. .

 

Now, you still maintain the tent fulfills a religious requirement when you've failed to show how it is the only one that does so. What makes it the preferred solution to hijab requirements? And why is it not adopted by the majority of Muslims on earth (except in societies where oppression of women is rampant)?

I don’t think that anyone said that it is the only style, so there is no need for me to try and explain that. I did not argue that, but what I did argue was that it is a style which does fulfill the requirements (and very good at that too). Also, if we are to go by the ways of the Muslims all over the globe, we’ll miss the target of Islam. We have texts of Islam; all our worships are by that. The Somali style jilbaab once again fulfills and really if you read the ahadith of how the female companions dressed, it is the closest style.

 

At the end of the day Castro, often you seem to be hailing for the rights and choices of others, yet here you seem hell-bent on denying others this right, you seem hell-bent on debasing the choice of many Somali women. Understandable it would be if you were arguing on the premise that it violates the conditions of hijab, that adeer would be righteous, but you sit and write here that you just so happen to not like the style. What kind of an objection is that? No one is forcing you to wear it, but leave those who chose to wear it alone. They don’t need your taunts of ‘tent’ adeer, they get enough of that from the kufaar. Like it has been said, it is here to stay adeer. Don’t become like the kufaar who menace us hijabes everyday with taunts of napkin put-downs. It is very disheartening to see your fellow Muslims mimicking such vulgar taunts. What we need is for our fellow Muslim brothers to support our choices in worshipping Allah, not turning on us- like I said we have enough of that already.

 

Are women not being made to bear an inordinate share of the blame for the sins of a nation? When all else fails, wrap up the women for they are the ones who wreak all havoc. What really gets me is how some view this as a choice.

Adeer don’t try to teach me about the fighting for of women’s rights. I’m sure I’d be at the forefront of such a battle before you manage to pull on your shoes. That said; don’t make this about an issue of subjugating women or controlling them. With this insinuation dear Castro, you are inadvertently insulting the strong Somali women. Women have made this choice!

 

Ahura,

 

Tent as a description is not hurtful or sacrilegious. Like I said the square hijab does look like a napkin, laakiin it is the form and tone in which it is said which makes it sacrilegious. To say such taunts, be it ‘tent’ or ‘napkin’ in a tone of yasid (which Castro seemingly did- I still have not been corrected in case I am wrong) is sacrilegious. You are a hijabi Ahura, and you know how degrading and hurtful taunts such as ‘napkin’ and ‘tent’ in a tone of yasid can be. That is the point of contention here, at least as far as I’m concerned anyway.

 

Rahima,

A friend of mine once told me that the Somali style jilbaab is recommended by some scholares because your not allowed to show the parting between the arms (like with the surwaal). Have you heard this, do you know the source. Sorry to put you on the spot darling.. just have a feeling you'd know

I too have often heard that the Somali style of the jilbaab is most often preferred by the Scholars because it fulfills the conditions that more. Furthermore, it is most often an outer garment which is what a jilbaab (as is used in the Quran) should be. As for the proofs, some hadiths and Quranic ayahs I’ve often come across:

 

Hadith - Bukhari 6:282

'Aisha used to say: "When (the Verse): 'They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms,' was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces."

 

Hadith - Abu Dawud, Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin

When the verse "That they should cast their outer garments over their persons" was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads by wearing outer garments.

i.e. indicating that it was one piece of clothing on top.

 

The Noble Qur'an - Al-Ahzab 33:59

O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils)* all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

 

*the arabic word here is Jalabeeb (plural of Jalbaab), which is the loose outer garment that covers all a woman's body.

 

Hadith - Abu Dawud, Narrated Dihyah ibn Khalifah al-Kalbi

The Apostle of Allah was brought some pieces of fine Egyptian linen and he gave me one and said: Divide it into two; cut one of the pieces into a shirt and give the other to your wife for veil. Then when he turned away, he said: And order your wife to wear a garment below it and not show her figure.

P.S. I have a question for the more knowledgeable Nomads of this thread in religon, particularly: Khayr, Xiinfaniin, Rahima , or anyone else. What is the history or the story behind this particular Jalbaab (the tent-looking one) in Islam. Were muslim women donning this particular style since time immemorial?

 

Hit me with a hadith, slap me with a verse, or just pull-out the formidable Fatzooka (the islamic juridical Bazooka). I promise, I will not retaliate.

All that said before it, is a clear indication of your attitude walaal. I really am not ready for ridicule, so please excuse me if I chose to decline the answering of any questions coming from you in my directions.

[- Femme -]

Rahima,

 

When have you not made sense? Great stuff.

 

Xiin;

 

[Khayr]

Originally posted by Rahima:

[QB]

They don’t need your taunts of ‘tent’ adeer, they get enough of that from the kufaar. Like it has been said, it is here to stay adeer. Don’t become like the kufaar who menace us hijabes everyday with taunts of napkin put-downs. It is very disheartening to see your fellow Muslims mimicking such vulgar taunts. What we need is for our fellow Muslim brothers to support our choices in worshipping Allah, not turning on us- like I said we have enough of that already.

 

HENCE THE POINT THAT RAHIMA AND OTHER MUSLIMS ARE TRYING TO MAKE. Laakin, others can't see that and continue to mock and defend their mockery of their own history, thier own islamic lineage.

 

 

Finally so much of our culture is stolen anyway. The trousers that you’re probably wearing now, was that not originally foreign? Similarly, that shirt, and heck those shoes too

. Let’s not forget our foods, spaghetti is thanks to our previous occupiers; likewise we chose to steal the sambuus from across the ocean.

It is in the Symbolism behind it walaal, it is very very fashionable to bash RELIGION and any and all things that might have a symbolance of a non-modern ethos like ISLAM.

 

This explains why somalis want to bash the arabic culture and becoming 'arabized' laakin when its time to mimicking the Italians (spaghetti is thanks to our previous occupiers) and the British (The trousers that you’re probably wearing now), somalis don't see a problem. Infact, they see it as a sign of 'PROGRESSION' , where as mimicking anything from the Islamic World, is seen by some as 'REGRESSION'

 

Ahura,

 

Tent as a description is not hurtful or sacrilegious. Like I said the square hijab does look like a napkin, laakiin it is the form and tone in which it is said which makes it sacrilegious. To say such taunts, be it ‘tent’ or ‘napkin’ in a tone of yasid (which Castro seemingly did- I still have not been corrected in case I am wrong) is sacrilegious. You are a hijabi Ahura, and you know how degrading and hurtful taunts such as ‘napkin’ and ‘tent’ in a tone of yasid can be. That is the point of contention here, at least as far as I’m concerned anyway.

Ahura,

 

Inshallah, you will take what Rahima is saying with some reflection and not take this advice as an insult or a personal attack on you.

 

'The Believers are a Mirror unto each other'

 

Alhamdulillah caala kuuli xaal waacudha bilaah miin xaal axil al-nar!

[Castro]

Originally posted by Rahima:

What kind of an objection is that?

A weak one at best.

 

No one is forcing you to wear it, but leave those who chose to wear it alone.

Done.

[xiinfaniin]

Grammaticus,

 

Those ‘tent-wearers’, as you put it, good Grammaticus, are observant of the divine laws of their lord. Whether you ridicule their attire publicly or mock it in private, they care not. If the act of mocking the Hijaab (lets not kid our selves: ‘this particular jalbaab’ = Hijaab), how ever, fills you with an evil joy, and, for some bizarre reason, you get satisfaction out of it, then , unfortunately, go right ahead and do it, I say. Spare us though, dear Gram, from your silly questions as they are, just that, silly. Such questions naturally have no answers.

 

Anti-tent-wearers (anti-Hijaabis);

 

It is asinine really to labor on the obvious. Making a distinction without a difference is neither convincing nor practical. That every jalbaab is a Hijaab is a fact. Arguing that every jalbaab is not Hijaab is a useless one. The reason it is ineffective to argue from the point of mocking at jalbaab is a fair game because it is not synonymous with Hijaab is for it contradicts your basic premise of respect. If your respect of Hijaab emanates from the religiosity of it (Hijaab being an application of divine law), same respect should be awarded, it follows, to this ‘particular jalbaab’ as it is subset of the Hijaab. You see, if you truly respect the mosque because it is the placed where (exclusively) Allah is worshiped, then you should award that same respect to the ‘mawlac’ as it serves the same purpose. It is a simple logic. Comprehending it, though, proved to be a difficult task for some.

 

 

I can understand those who stated their preference as to what type of Hijaab they would wear without mocking the jalbaab. I can also understand those who do not believe Hijaab in particular and shariicah in general as they are out side of the sharicah. I deem this particular group to be irrelevant to this discussion.

 

But confused, I found, are those who’re trying to make a point without one. Theirs is a weak armor. Xag un labada daa-rood ku daran ha is xakabin meele’e, I say.

 

Walgeey tanoo kale! hadba mid hor leh oo suuxsan baa soo boodayya!

[Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar]

 

Quruxsanaa! Waayo waayo iga dheh. Xataa xasuustii iskoolada see u dhisnaayeen, darbiga wareegsanaa, ganjeelka weynaa, ar maxaa ganjeel xiran dhexdiis isku cariirinay inaan iskoolka u gambino. Socodka aaba i dilay, xataa. Lugta sida loo qaadaayo fiiri? Shaati jaalo iyo surwaal kaaki maxaa loo xiisay. Jaceylnimada ka dhaxeyso.

 

 

Igaartaan taloow manooshahay? Hadee nooshahayna saan ma u egtahay wali?

[Gabbal]

Women have made this choice!

Bless your heart walaal. Debase the hypocrites (or hypocritical views if you like).

[Blessed]

Grammaticus

Reread what I wrote walaalo. Then mock. I don't respond well to those who give my words a makeover. So, begone. Thank you.

 

Castro

Your argument as I understand it, is that style of hijaab is imposed on the women. It isn’t a choice. It’s a response to a tragedy blamed on women (and the weak, you said). To validate this, in my mind I’d have to come to the conclusion that Somali women are either too dumb to question it or simply take what is given to them. In other words, weak. That’s the message I got from your posts, particularly the last one Atheer.

 

I was asking what logic you were on. British slang. Apologies.

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Afronaut:

Its not a str8 non ducking answer sxb.

 

You're futzing around despite a plea not to. It is simple question really. If a muslim girl in SHARIA run country (I understand wearing the hijab is voluntary everywhere else), refuses the Hijab for whatever reason, what do you suggest be done with her? I know you don't have authoritative answer, maybe not know the ins and outs of Sharia law and any answer you give will be speculative and based on your opinion. That is fine. Go ahead and speculate, opine. That is what opinions forums like this one are for. So, will the recalcitrant girl be jailed, fined or beaten?

 

Keep in mind, the bone of contention here for me is not if the Hijab is Islamic obligation or not. That is moot point but hither and thither. I don't have a problem with any muslim girl who wants to wear Hijab out of her own will. It is her God given right. It is the forceful imposition of universal dress code for one sex who, for eminently self-evidence reasons obvious to all, don't all share a unison view on proper Islamic apparel.

[Kashafa]

So, will the recalcitrant girl be jailed, fined or beaten?

She'll be strongly advised and the State will write a stern letter of protest to her Imam. How's that for an speculative opinion, Homer ? The fact of the matter is, there's no Sharia-run country today(don't even say Saudi, Why ? different topic for a different day). You pluck a hypothetical situation out of thin air and expect a serious answer.

 

 

I don't have a problem with any muslim girl who wants to wear Hijab out of her own will. It is her God given right. It is the

forceful imposition of universal dress code for one sex

who, for eminently self-evidence reasons obvious to all, don't all share a unison view on proper Islamic apparel.

THERE IS NO UNIVERSAL DRESS CODE FOR THE HIJAB. HIJAB HAS A SET OF PARAMETERS. ALL VARIATIONS OF DESIGN, COLOR, WHAT-HAVE-YOU ARE ALLOWED WITHIN THOSE DEFINED PARAMETERS. IT IS AN REQUIREMENT FOR WOMEN OF ISLAMIC FAITH. NO ONE ELSE IS OBLIGED TO WEAR IT.

 

^ I hope the Caps helps you out there. Don't wanna hear that "forceful imposition of universal dress code" line again.

 

Now, when an Islamic State comes into existence, the scholars(Not SOL'ers) will decide on how best to deal with those that break any laws of that State. Any answer you get till then has no weight, and as such, your question is about as useful as "What's the color of the number 8" ?

[Paragon]

Originally by Castro: And is this the sum of your response to how Somalis understood and practiced Islam for centuries prior to the civil war? Is it not more than just coincidence that a failure, at every level, of this society after 1990 has more to do with the tent than any new or elightened understanding of Islam? Is this not an irrational response to trauma? Are women not being made to bear an inordinate share of the blame for the sins of a nation? When all else fails, wrap up the women for they are the ones who wreak all havoc.

What really gets me is how some view this as a choice.

Ern, to asnwer all the above questions: NO. One question: who forced these girls to wear the Xijaab if the society itself (as you put it) has failed after the civil war? Is there really an overarching authority that imposes things such as Xijaab wearing? Maybe after we determine in who or in what these imposing authority is vested, can we discuss the Xijaab's un/fashionability (because as I see it, the argument of anti-jilbaabis is centered on modern fashionability than it is about religous obligation).

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Kashafa:

The fact of the matter is, there's no Sharia-run country today(don't even say Saudi, Why ? different topic for a different day).

 

The Iranians would disagree with you. So would the now-gone Taliban. But but I KNOW what you'll retort, "they're not practing real sharia, the Iranians aren't Sunnis blah blah blah." Who's to decide? You? There is no body, not a single entity, who garners wide support and allegiance of muslims. Where ever Sharia Law is to be practiced, it will be at the whims of the local imams/scholars, interpreting through the looking glass of their culture, sect, prejudices etc. This will ineluctably result in some local prejudices (ie towards women) creeping in. What's there to filter pure prejudice towards selected group (ie women, minorities etc) from legit Islamic credos? The only plausible solution I can think of is what the leader of Libya, Qaddafi, proposed. Namely, that there be female advisory (maybe governing?) counsel with the power to veto any law they deem is unfair to women and having no basis in Islam.

 

 

THERE IS NO UNIVERSAL DRESS CODE FOR THE HIJAB. HIJAB HAS A SET OF PARAMETERS

 

Of course there is, the Hijab by definition is a headscarf worn by muslim women only. Therefore, it IS universal in that sense. If I tell you to go and pick a girl from the airport wearing a Hijab, would any girl not wearing a headscarf be an option? Of course not. How long, what color, whether it covers the whole face and body or not is beside the point. You're just being punctilious. You KNOW what Hijab is and looks like, so lets not beat around the bush.

[Castro]

Paragon, not even. The tent is as ugly as it is foreign. However, it is a choice for some (or all, who knows?). Protesting that it is fashion faux pas is weak (and misplaced). Is it used as a tool of oppression? Sure. How widespread is that oppression? I don't know. Do those who wear it (by choice) deserve my support? Yes.

 

Blessed, point taken.

 

Originally posted by Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar:

Igaartaan taloow manooshahay? Hadee nooshahayna saan ma u egtahay wali?

I hope she is alive but highly doubt she looks like that still. She'd be older and, naturally, more conservatively dressed.

[sheherazade]

I'm with CW on this. I don't really give a hoot what others do or wear but when I walk down the street and I see Somali women wearing jilbaab's made of the most uncomfortable materials and garish colours I blush. Who spread the word that u have to look like u've given up on yourself to be modest? To make it worse, many I have come across see any other form of covering up as less and sometimes even qawanaan! Even my mother tells me some do not return her salaam. I guess I got that from her. Subxaanallah.

 

I think Somalis learn more by word of mouth and don't spend enough time reading for themselves, digesting and questioning. I keep hearing: so-and-so Sheikh said. I talked with a girl I barely know recently and she quoted me two hadith re women that I found objectionable and I was pretty certain weren't saxiix. She'd heard one being quoted by a respected sheikh(her words) and seen the other in a book. I had skimmed through that book myself, had found it patronising and some of the hadiths unfamiliar. I advised her to be careful when reading books and listening to talks on women. I had read and heard fictitious and weak hadiths being used to convince women to behave in certain ways.

 

I have looked up the hadiths since and they are both weak. Now I have to find her somehow and tell her to drop them out of her repertoire; she was trying to convince me I felt to accept the interpretations of those two hadith and when I refused to do so(based on my knowledge of Islam and how those hadiths conflicted or contradicted with what I already knew), she tried to find something that I would agree with that Islam expected of women. I could not understand why she was so eager to convince me to accept as though I needed subduing. She didn't know if the hadiths were authentic or not. I told her not to repeat hadiths she wasn't sure of.

 

Er, back to the adopted topic. There's a grimness I hear and see when many Somali women talk of what is expected of them. What happened to hope and beauty? The jilbaab as worn by Somali women has a lot more hiding under it than flesh.

 

P.S: don't bother getting your hijab's, jilbaab's, caps in a twist.

[-Serenity-]

There are so many arguments in the air, its difficult to make out what the topic of this discussion is.

 

1) An appreciation of Somalia-past.

2) Should Sharia impose the hijab?

3) Do Somali women choose to wear the jilbaab.

4) Is the jilbaab imported and foreign?

5) Were our forefathers ‘ignorant’ of the hijab?

6) Is it sacrilegious to say the jilbaab is unattractive and impractical?

 

Now, time doesn’t permit one to cover each and every topic, so here are my concluding statements for this discussion:

 

There is no disputing the hijab is obligatory on a Muslim woman. That I doubt, is even the topic of discussion. However, there is also no compulsion in religion and when man mandates God’s religion, there is bound to be leeway for error and abuse and dare I say – oppression.

 

With regards to the hijab, to my knowledge… there is no agreed perfect one, just parameters on how to dress (like Kashafa said ). The concept of more clothes, more hijabed is preposterous. You’re either fulfilling the requirements of the hijab or you’re not. Then again, having read some of the requirements, its all subject to interpretation… some even go as far as saying the only thing that should remain uncovered is the left-eye (I kid you not!).

 

Now, what’s a woman to do with so many people willing to interpret something that should essentially be simple in so many different ways? I, personally hate walking around and thinking I’m well hijabed but doubting maybe not. It’s a terrible feeling to have. One that is constantly fed by the array of descriptions of what the ‘good hijab’ should look like. The other day, I was browsing some Saudi sites and came across the following poster… appropriately titled ‘Choose for yourself ’ with two arrows pointing to what looks like a representation of hell and heaven.

 

 

Both women look decent to me (and to the naked eye) but the poster puts a cross on the woman in the left and says she is ‘dolled up’. While a tick of approval is next to the other woman and under her it reads ‘ the right way to wear the hijab’. And in the middle are stipulations on what the hijab should do.

 

This is where what you guys consider ‘mocking’ comes in. Am I supposed to sit back and say nothing on seeing that? (I laughed hard and then replied somewhere and asked where the rightly-hijabed woman puts her belongings? – bra?). I really don’t mean to mock… but my sense of humour gets me thru a lot of overwhelming absurdities.

 

My point is simple. We cant go around promoting every awkward looking attire as a good hijab. If you look dowdy and unshapely and insist on sweeping the floor, you will be mocked (just like if you insist on wearing 7-inch platforms and plastering urself with make-up). One doesn’t have to look like a black walking mass of shadow to be ‘rightly hijabed’ and a woman’s ticket to heaven is not her dress.

 

When I write on a topic of this sort, I don’t have a hidden agenda nor am I gaalo-hearted. Walaahi the last thing I would want to do is isolate masaakiinta jilbaabka xidha. I already think they have it tough. However, as muslims.. we need internal criticism to maintain some level of moderation in views… otherwise the most extreme point of view gets aired and taken to be standard. When I posted the pic of the two school photos – I genuinely could understand why people thought the nation went not just through overhaul but a sort of arabization… because it did. It is better or worse? A bit of both…atleast where the hijab is concerned but dare I say its not all dandy. The school girls definitely don’t have a choice in their school uniform and the imposed jilbaab is unpractical…. And should I be saying this? I think definitely.

 

Lastly, the jilbaab is not the only triangular thing that Somalis wear, but also the overcoat dress that Pakistanis wear is referred to as jilbaab (below pic).

 

 

Will the real jilbaab please stand out?