Originally posted by AAliyah416: i am not sure i can tolerate an individual who calls emself somali yet claims to be christian :confused: Then, to call you religious bigot is more than fair. Not much different from Islamophobe or anti-semite.

Originally posted by Northerner: quote: But even if you're right, so what? What exactly do you hope to achieve with such stat? To prove my earlier point which you contested?Good then, otherwise I would've held your feet to the fire. ps those stats are bogus Yes, they're still bogus. My last post shows incontestable evidence to the contrary. What do you have to say about that?

Originally posted by ThePoint: If you agree with that - how can you say that multiculturealism has failed? First, I never said multiculturalism has failed. That's a judgement best left to posterity. However, what I did was it is a failure where it's practiced: Europe and to lesser extent Canada for example. As I have said already multiculturalism is flawed idea, an unattainable dream, at variance with human history. Good intentioned albiet untenable one. It posits different cultures should remain what they are, be proud of it and keep it that way. To the extent Laws are enacted to protect their distinctiveness. The flaw in this position is cultures aren't static, they're fluid... either a culture must be responsive to changing times or wither away. Contrast multiculturalism with assimilation and you'll see the pragmaticism of the latter... how lands where assimilation is official policy, everyone feels (after sometime) more attached to their adopted nation's mainstream culture than the one they left behind. In America, you can be any hyphenated american, be proud of it, have parades celebrating your ancestoral home's culture but you're american first and foremost. When you land in America, you're forced to ADOPT or risk getting your fair piece of the pie. And to mainstream American culture, adopt is also the modus operandi... You have multicultural Neatherlands enacting draconian laws like forcing new immigrant claimants to watch videos of dutch social mores... in France, muslim girls can't wear the Hijab in government buildings and on and on. None of this takes place in the US because cultural differences are incorporated into the melting pot. The societies/countries have failed at enacting the very essence of multiculturalism. If they did, good thing. It's time they accept the best way to reduce social frictions is assimilation. The melting-pot example of the US.

Originally posted by Northerner: SB, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the west. You know that. No, I don't know that. Last I checked, the US was part of the West. Islam is not the fastest growing religion in the States. But even if you're right, so what? What exactly do you hope to achieve with such stat? Top Twenty Religions in the United States, 2001 (self-identification, ARIS) Religion 1990 Est. Adult Pop. 2001 Est. ADULT Pop. 2004 Est. Total Pop. % of U.S. Pop., 2000 % Change 1990 - 2000 Christianity 151,225,000 159,030,000 224,437,959 76.5% +5% Nonreligious/Secular 13,116,000 27,539,000 38,865,604 13.2% +110% Judaism 3,137,000 2,831,000 3,995,371 1.3% -10% Islam 527,000 1,104,000 1,558,068 0.5% +109% Buddhism 401,000 1,082,000 1,527,019 0.5% +170% Agnostic 1,186,000 991,000 1,398,592 0.5% -16% Atheist 902,000 1,272,986 0.4% Hinduism 227,000 766,000 1,081,051 0.4% +237% Unitarian Universalist 502,000 629,000 887,703 0.3% +25% Wiccan/Pagan/Druid 307,000 433,267 0.1% Spiritualist 116,000 163,710 0.05% Native American Religion 47,000 103,000 145,363 0.05% +119% Baha'i 28,000 84,000 118,549 0.04% +200% New Age 20,000 68,000 95,968 0.03% +240% Sikhism 13,000 57,000 80,444 0.03% +338% Scientology 45,000 55,000 77,621 0.02% +22% Humanist 29,000 49,000 69,153 0.02% +69% Deity (Deist) 6,000 49,000 69,153 0.02% +717% Taoist 23,000 40,000 56,452 0.02% +74% Eckankar 18,000 26,000 36,694 0.01% +44% Islam's percent change from 1990 to 2000 was 109%. All the data points in bold indicate faster growth rate than Islam.

Originally posted by Northerner: A wave of conversion to Islam after 9/11 babble on,,,,,,,,,, So your evidence for Westerners converting to Islam in droves include such anecdotes as Italian Ambassador and Jarmaine Jackson embrace of Islam. Is this a joke? And thousands converting in a land of nearly 300 million is a drop in the ocean. When you get millions of Americans converting to Islam do you have a case.

Originally posted by ThePoint: Wow - I must say - today is 'retard' day for you because you keep making all sorts of asinine statements. Grow up! Everyone lives in enclaves - rich, poor, Christians, Jews, people who like the same activities(ie. tennis, golf etc), retirees, expatriates etc. Well, rich and poor people do live in their own enclaves, that just reinforces my point. It's an issue of economics, not social. But the rest of what you said is complete nonsense. Where I live Christians live side-be-side with Jews, muslims, Hindus, Budhist, animist etc. Is that a sign of failure? Depends. In the case of Europe, where say muslims have to ditch their cultural baggages if they want to be accepted or risk being pushed to the fringes of society, then YES. In the case of the US, where you can bring along some of your home culture to the melting pot resulting in the full acceptance and given equal oppurtunity for social mobility, then NO. Immigrant communities in Europe are isolated and insulated because the larger society has not allowed them the space to be themselves and partake of the society at the same time. Canada, US and Australia/NZ are different. And the UK is decent too. I know. Duh! That's exactly what I said. The concept behind multiculturalism is to encourage and nurture cultural intermingling, borrowing, learning and openness. That's your definition of multiculturalism. Not the one accepted by most people. For example, according to dictionary.com, multiculturalism is idea of several distinct cultures co-existing and mainting their distinctiveness. No mention of borrowing or learning. Canadian Multiculturalism Act stresses preserving and enhancing cultural heritages, not assimilating.

Originally posted by ThePoint: quote:Originally posted by Socod_badne: very much doubt Westerners are reverting to Islam in droves, specially in post-9/11 climate. This can't even be mistaken for an assertion. How you come to think I was making an assertion -- a positive statement -- fails me. quote: In the States, I think Budhism is fastest growing religion. First, this is not an assertion per se. I didn't say Budhism is the fastest growing religion in the States, just that I think... based on something I read while back in a magazine about popularity of Budhism among Westerners. That said, here are some stats if you're interested. ARIS data to 2001 More recent data And about people reverting to Islam, it means nothing. People convert/revert between religions all the time, nothing unique about few Western reverts. The above links discuss in detail how people switch religions. And the difficulty that poses in gathering data. This very thread's original purpose was about muslim Somalis who opted for Christianity. But my central point still stands. Most people of faith, 85-95%, follow the same faith as their parents. The evidence for this is Somalis. But pick any other community and you'll find similar stats.

Multiculturalism is abysmal failure. Just look at Europe, where entire immigrant communities live in insulated enclaves, completely cut-off from the society they're embedded in. And to certain extent Canada, where fault lines are fast appearing. At it's core, multiculturalism is an idea premised on cultural purity and that purity shouldn't be tampered with. Rather celebrated and shielded. In other words, rather than encourage cultures to adopt, borrow and shed some of their ethos to facilitate the greater well being off all involved, they're encouraged to stay the way they are. Of coure, human history shows cultures can never be pure, they must change with time or be left to rue. Thus, why you have brewing social upheavals with recent immigrants (last 20-30 yrs) in the West. The exception is the US. Being a land of immigrants, their system gives greater importance to assimilation or economic integration than touchy-feely, feel good idealism of multiculturalism.

Originally posted by ThePoint: Could you be any more obnoxious, tasteless Sure I can. and evidence-less for your assertions? :rolleyes: The onus to present evidence is on the claimant. In this case, Northerner. Not moi.

Originally posted by Northerner: Just this past friday an Indian made his shahada in the masjid i was at masha allah. Statistics revealed in a website (i will find it) revealed that most reverts here are of western (white) origin with Filipino and Chinese behind. I like to see stats... very much doubt Westerners are reverting to Islam in droves, specially in post-9/11 climate. In the States, I think Budhism is fastest growing religion. And about people reverting to Islam, it means nothing. People convert/revert between religions all the time, nothing unique about few Western reverts. But my central point still stands. Most people of faith, 85-95%, follow the same faith as their parents. Indians are a stubborn bunch, you notice just from talking to them. India has one of the largest muslim populations. There are more muslims in India than Pakistan and nearly as many as in Indonesia. Striking statistic.

Originally posted by Jimcaale: I hope you don’t expect me to cite hadiths to a hadith denier. Stop squirming and produce what you said (but ever one else knows was a lie) existed. If such Hadiths exist, you should be able to produce them regardless of whatever credence I'll lend to them. You're prevaricating and you're not putting on anyone... we can all see through your facade. Show us the Hadiths that talk about Artic fasting times or admit to lying when you said they exist.

Originally posted by LayZieGirl: Hurry up, and vote now, No. I first need physical confirmation you are what you say.

Originally posted by Kashafa: The Middle East, Asia, and Africa have been the playground of the West for the past 300 years. Like kids in a sandbox, Western governments(with a few exceptions) have been changing the fates of entire nations with a few strokes of the pen. Nonesense! Were these continent's peoples rich prior to Western subjugation, were they markedly better off back then than they are now? No! The main reason why Africa, Mid-East and large junks of Asia came under West domination was due to their weakness vis-a-vis the West. Otherwise, they would've withstood the onslaught of Western encroachments, faired better... instead, as we now know most collapsed like a house of cards as the early whiffs of Western approach reached them. Lastly, this is hackneyed arguement of the Left... our friend Kashafa and other of it's proponents would never admit this but the incontrovertible fact is this arguement is rip-off of the old battle cry of the Left. It goes something like this: the West is the source of much of the Word's problems; Western coloniasm is the reason why many nations are poor and underdeveloped; 3rd world people are ****** , things always happen to them and they're never able to think for themselves to do what's best for them... inherent in this arguement is Racism of the worst kind. It practically asserts 3rd people don't have will of their own and wherewithal to dig themselves out of their misery... they're powerless beings unable to do what their Western counterparts can and do. To blow this arguement right out of the water, to show it's complete lack of merit, all one needs to do is cite few examples of nations that have been under the West's thumb for eons and yet have, somehow, realised their potentials by rising to status of immense wealth and power. But the greivances that SB so causally dismisses(u need to wake up, boy) are being constantly stoked and restoked by imperialistic interference in the lives of Muslims and non-Muslims worldwide, covertly and overtly . It's like picking at a scab wound and saying "Dammit, why won't it heal"(Dammit, why do they hate us so much) Well, this is more or less along the same lines as the previous reasoning. However, it's further compounded by it's dearth of truth. Most muslims in the World are under the imperialistic interference of other muslims... most muslims are killed, disenfrenchised, terrorised and ruled over by other muslims. Western imperialistic intentions in the Muslim world today is pure apocryphal... endorsed by those who embraced victimhood wholesale and wallow in self-pity. "With respect to Western goverments, they need to do much more to fight imperialism in their ranks. So far, it's been See a Muslim, Steal a Muslim , Kill a Muslim. The rather perversely inhumane attitude many have towards Muslim lives & property doesn't help matters either." This doesn't explain why it seems only muslims react violently. I'm sure you'll agree Western foriegn policy hasn't been all that different across continents and peoples in the last 50 or so years. Why no S. Americans (or african or asian) ever blew themselves up while using martyrology espoused by Catholicism (or whatever) as excuse? The only reasonable explaination is sick, demented mindset promoted by depraved minority has taken hold in popular muslim discourse. As shown by the popular support of groups like Al-Quida garner... isn't Osama Bin Laden some sort of hero in the Muslim world, particularly in Pakistan where new born boys are named after him. You can put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and pretend you don't see and hear reality for what it is but that would only take you so far.

Originally posted by RendezVous: Many Muslims are not aware about these Quraanic verses and when asked, If Islam said this and this, quickly get panicking, Naah! It's just you being who you are. That said, it's always fun watching you battle to knock down strawmen of your own creation. Too hilarious at times!

Originally posted by Modesty: Socod, don't dare say I follow Islam blindly, I am not muslim because my parents are muslim because I know my deen, and I have no doubt that Islam is the correct path. Now you're trying desparately to mimic a trained seal. Why, I don't know. I know you said you believe Islam because your parents were not muslim. They believed in the funky Lizard Worshipping Cult... you found Islam after harrowing escape, in the nick of time, just before the savage Lizard worshippers were to sacrifice you to the Lizard God. You get my sympathy for your terrifying ordeal but as far as believability goes, it flunks big time.

Originally posted by RendezVous: There is no brainwashing of Muslims.. Whether muslims are brainwashed or not is a moot point. According to Modesty Christians believing what they're told is unique occurance with no parallels. I raised the rhetorical question, how is she any different to get her to think. If you look the religious figures from most countries, you'll find a consistant pattern. Most people of faith follow the faith of their parents. THis seams to be true for Muslims as well. We are learned people who have studied theology Oh! I see now! Telling bold faced lies has become a fashion statement, heh? Who you think you're jiving here pal? And who is the we you talk of? I hope you didn't mean Somalis, the majority ethnic somalis can't even read. They're illiterate. I'd bet the same is true for many other muslims.

Originally posted by Khalaf: we believe in Islam because we believe it to be truth….not because of our parents. And yet your parents were muslims, just like you. What was your point again? I have read the old and new testament….because there was this preacher kid in school and I did it to counter him. I very much doubt you did such thing. For one, being cought reading OT and NT is prospect every muslim must avoid in most muslim majority nations. In some countries, you can find yourself incarcerated like criminal if found carrying a Bible. In others, there's frightful stigma attached to converting to or even taking interests (even if for research purposes) in other religions . Of more relavence is the futility of a muslim in muslim dominant country reading the Bible (or any non-muslim holy text). Apostasy is capital crime in many muslim countries... so what's the point of reading other holy texts? It's not like you were ever seriously going to consider leaving Islam. lets concentrate on being better Muslims…..and not ourselves being Muslims by name and not by deeds. In Islam, being better muslim and doing the deeds of a better muslim are inextricably tied. How does one become a better muslim if not through good deeds? Remember a Munafiq is worse then a Kufar! There are more of those I think! A meaningless blurb. Without qualifying, it means nothing of substance. Adjectives don't make a man, they don't earn you a ticket to eternal salvation... it's your deeds that will. Suppose this, all to real, scenario. A depraved, psychopathic Kufr and a Munaafiq who does all the good things expected of the ideal muslim. No chance in hell will you convince me or any rational minded person the latter is worse than the former.

Originally posted by Jimcaale: There are many hadiths regarding these matters, but Socod_badne doesn’t follow the sunnah. Maybe that’s why he doesn’t think the rulings are different. There are NO Hadiths (sahih or otherwise) that speak about Ramadan times at the Article cirle. And the reason why is pretty self-explanatory: the Hadith authors didn't know better. But since you have knowledge of these yet undiscovered Hadiths, describing about what to do during Ramadan if you live in the Article circle, you could be perhaps share it with us. Islam is universal religion that’s compatible and applicable in at all times. This is linguistic redundancy that says absolutely nothing. As the saying goes, "proof of the pudding is in the eating!"

Originally posted by Modesty: ^stubborn due to brainwashing. Since you believe Islam due to your parents being muslims, how are you different?

This letter reeks of double-talk so common with these organisations. Always grumbling about overlooked root-causes as if that exonerates them from their failures as leaders of their respective communities... in protecting it's most vulnerable -- the impressionable and the young -- from sinister characters, intent on using them to carry out macabre plots. Let's be honest here and look at the facts from purely rational, detached perspective. What are these root-causes that has so many people teed-off, some unable to restraint their anger and express it in violent means? The most ubiquitous, of course, is the West's support for Israel. But I question the sincerity of this grieve. I say it's phoney. The geographical epicenter of this grievance is Palestine/Israel. Land populated by Palestinians or Arabs. But we see Indonesians 15 miles removed from Palestine threatening to blow-up Westerners for what they did to people they never met. You can substitute Indonesians for another group of non-arab muslims and they'd all rail against the West. It's examples like these that tosses these claimed grievances over to the disingeneuos side. Since the sense of muslim grieve cuts across all cultural, national, racial boundaries it would be the height of disingenuity to say Westerners can't be suspicious of muslims in general. Afterall, it wasn't the West that turned a petty land squabble into religiously charged one that has every doomsday enthusiast bursting with excitement. With respect to muslims in the West, they need to do much more to fight extremism in their ranks. So far, it's been see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. The rather perversely skewed perception many have of the West doesn't help matters either.

Dr Zakir Naik is hilarious. He once said...The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. In America, most people consume pork. Many times after dance parties, they have swapping of wives; many say "you sleep with my wife and I will sleep with your wife." If you eat pigs then you behave like pigs.

Originally posted by Aniga waaye: All Justice is trying to do is show you the problem and all of you dudes are defending your self’s and not seeing what you doing wrong. No, Justice is peddling load of crapola that doesn't fly. Like her oxymoronic contention that Somali men have foibles. Ya, and I am the emperor of China! There's nothing wrong with Somali men. In fact, they're perfect... certainly better their opposite sex. And if any Somali man leaves alot to be desired, the blame rests squarely on the shoulders of Somali women. Please stop spreading hate and violence against Somali men. The poor sods have already seen more than their fair share.

Originally posted by Dhubad: I thought there are seven Earthes and seven Heavens. :confused: Not in our universe. Maybe in our next door neighbour... hold on, let me see if they got 7 earthes and heavens...

Originally posted by Rahima: But in places where the sun does not set, I’m sure the ruling would be different. I don't think any rulings exist for those places. Ramadaan is based on Sunset and Sunrise. Yep, there are places in this world where the sun doesn't set for months on end. Check 'em out here: Athropolis

Originally posted by Shabanu: Discuss. In a minute. Before I get to it, who the fudging hell are you? I got tailor-made responses handy, gotta know your old monicker.