Thread on rebellion against muslim rulers!

[Rahima]

The ICU didn't rule Baidoa nor did they rule Puntland or Gedo for that instance so what is the defensive Jihaad you talking about?

 

They were invited by other enteties who were not under the control of the Islamic courts! What these people don't get is that they think the ICU was in control of the whole country and all Somalis were in agreement with them there laid their error!

Defending Somalia in a defensive jihad has nothing to do with the courts for they like the rest of us are MUSLIMS who are obligated to defend their land against the invasion of KUFAAR, invited or not matters not for to invite kufaar to fight your brothers is munaafiqnimo. That is the bottom line here. Even if one disagrees with the courts and questions their motives, you can never justify the invasion. It is not about what jurisdiction or control or whatever else you wish to label it, it is about Muslims having the right to defend their land against gaalo- very simple mate.

 

Don't lie sister even Aweys said and confirmed the courts being predominantly from one clan and he said as the clans who join the local-based courts who have elevated themselves to become broad representatives of Somalia and other areas they did not control increase they shall be included and reflect its leadership!

Don’t lie, don’t lie? Where have i lied, quote me.

 

Have I ever claimed otherwise? There is nothing wrong with a clan establishing an entity to deal with the problems of their own clan as the courts had originally started out with. As their support base grew from people of all clans so did their control. This I’ve always said and I don’t see any shame in it for every Muslim should start advising their direct family first, extended family, clan and so forth- this is what Islam teaches us.

 

As for the rest, I’d take your disagreements with the UIC seriously if I didn’t think you were tribally motivated. If memory serves me correctly you’ve often in the past expressed such sentiments, not necessarily against the courts but in a general sense. You for God sake support the likes of CY, the worst of them all (if we are agree that they’re all evil). He is the worst of the bloodsuckers and worse still commits acts of kufr on a daily basis, from refusing to rule by the book of Allah to inviting KUFAAR to invade his country and not to mention massacre his people and then claim that every nation (US) has a right to defend itself. Don’t talk to me about morality and right and wrong when you support such filth.

[Fiqikhayre]

I asked you earlier sister this simple question which you for obviously good reasons avoided!

 

'How did a qabiil based local Mogadishu clan courts system turn into a broad exclusive and representative body that can speak for the whole of Somalia'?

 

Remember the majority of Puntland clans and their Ulama weren't joining them! Sheikh Faarax Gacmey is the 'patron saint' of the righteous Ulama, who adhere to the true aqaaid you and me believe never joined the ICU, so didn't many but Fahad Khalaf did, a young 'sheikh' from the United Kingdom!

 

To say he represents a clan or region is madness, so what are you advocating whilst we are disunited and have contempt for each other we call an ill-advised Jihaad we cannot win even if it is defensive Jihaad?

 

You would agree with me that the jihaad their called for was Fard Al-Kifayah which means it was a group-based jihaad, who felt their were attacked and therefore defend their homeland?

 

But again didn't their homeland have a government?

 

Yes it did!

 

Didn't they recognise the legality of that government?

 

Yes they did!

 

So what led them to declare that defensive 'Jihaad' you're talking about?

 

Why didn't the people of Puntland and the rest of Somalia participate in the Jihaad because Puntland was also attacked and the Ulama should have taken their swords to fight off the Ethiopians inside Puntland but they didn't, why?

 

Because their regional government brought them into the country and the federal government also brought them in the country and that's why they didn't revolt!

 

The government of Puntland said 'They're not attacking you nor your livelihoods or wealth but they're here to safeguard your safety and fight along side us because the ICU was illegally trying to force on themselves to people that had peace and didn't want them!

 

They had a functioning government and told them to stay out but the people of 'We were invited didn't know that or took a grasp of it as usual'!

 

So are you saying because the Ulama of Puntland didn't agree with the strategy and the marathon of the ICU, they'd had a right to wage Jihaad on behalf of the Somali people? No because I already told you they were not universally accepted in Somalia nor did they rule the whole of Somalia!

 

So let's do Jihaad in a really messy way, disunited, battered and without resources and a dvision in aqaaid!

 

Walaal what do you say about the Hiz-ut-Tahriir, the Ikhwaanul Muslimiin, the Islaah group and the Jamaacatu Tabligh aren' they part of the 73 sects that will go to hell-fire!

 

I know you got the right aqaaid, so how can a person like you fight along side Hizb-ut-Tahriir, Ikhwaanul Muslimiin or the Al-Islaah?

 

Those listed groups and the Salafis don't talk to each other so what to do, what was needed was 'purification' of the soul and heart then teaching and then Jihaad sister!

 

But an unholly alliance between those groups, hardcore Jihaadists and khawaarij and clan soldiers won't bring you any victory!

 

Again I remind you on the poem 'Establish the Islamic state in your heart it will be established for you in this earth'!

 

Again did Indhacadde have the islamic state in his heart? Did the clan-fighters? Did the westernised Islaah group, Ikhwaan/Qutubis and Hiz-ut-Tahriir group?

 

No is the answer.

 

We needed a process sister and to purify ourselves but not to wage futile jihaads and revolutions because they will be crushed and the reason they're being crushed is because they don't follow the sunnah! Simple sister.

[Rahima]

^Honestly I don’t feel that you are the type of person I can debate with, our differences are beyond belief, so let me highlight a few points and leave it at that:

 

'How did a qabiil based local Mogadishu clan courts system turn into a broad exclusive and representative body that can speak for the whole of Somalia'?

Because this wretched good for nothing hypocritical supposed government of ours which is aiding the kufaar was not fulfilling its duties. Someone had to fill the vacuum, not perfect but a much better option.

 

Remember the majority of Puntland clans and their Ulama weren't joining them! Sheikh Faarax Gacmey is the 'patron saint' of the righteous Ulama, who adhere to the true aqaaid you and me believe never joined the ICU, so didn't many but Fahad Khalaf did, a young 'sheikh' from the United Kingdom!

I’m not interested in the views of one or two men who have less knowledge than the most knowledgeable of the Somalis, from Shariif Cabdi nuur, to Umal to Mustafa and cukaasha. I’d rather take the views of these men then the ones you have mentioned (never heard of them anyway). You can’t compare Shariif Cabdi Nuur to these men.

 

PL Culima’ and their views are irrelevant in matters where Rasuallah has spoken. PL culimaa' are irrelevant in matters where the more knowledgeable have spoken. When a Muslim land is attacked by kufaar, it is the responsibility of every person of that land to defend their land. I don’t know which caqiida you follow laakiin this is not a matter for opinion.

 

We needed a process sister and to purify ourselves but not to wage futile jihaads and revolutions because they will be crushed and the reason they're being crushed is because they don't follow the sunnah! Simple sister.

I gotta love your rationale, so I suppose Rasuallah and the sahaba were crushed in Uhud because they didn’t follow the Sunnah? So defeat always comes because one disobeys Allah? I suppose that there is no way it could be test ay? Victory comes from Allah and He has promised ultimate victory to Muslims (even if sinful) not kufaar and kufaar loving munaafiqiin. That is the promise that Allah has given. Don’t you forget that my good brother. Cheer for the kufaar and their lovers all you want. Try to demonise Muslims as much as you wish, for at the end of the day this is a war of Muslims against kufaar and hypocrites. You have chosen who you support and i have chosen who i support, laugh now, cheer now for it will be short lived inshallah.

[Fabregas]

Originally posted by MKA Yoonis:

 

 

But the Jihaad issue on a muslim land being invaded, who gave the authority to the UIC, which was lead by one clan because it originated from one clan to declare a defensive Jihaad on territories they don't even rule!

 

Because Ethiopia had declared war on them as admitted by their P.M and as voted by their parliament.Logically this means the matter was out of the hands of any somali clans or the government.

 

You see that's the madness I'm talking about. The sister however will not understand the peculiar issue of here, the UIC recognising the authority of the government TFG but on the same time opposing them!

 

 

They recognised them, but told to me remove the thousands of ethio troops, whom the government had said where only advisors but we know they where planning war all along.Where does is say in Islam you can lie on the negotiating table to your opponent, when a kafir entity is plannning to wage war on other muslims

 

The ICU didn't rule Baidoa nor did they rule Puntland or Gedo for that instance so what is the defensive Jihaad you talking about?

 

Defensive Jihad against the Ethiopians who where planning to attack them sooner or later.

 

They were invited by other enteties who were not under the control of the Islamic courts! What these people don't get is that they think the ICU was in control of the whole country and all Somalis were in agreement with them there laid their error!

 

Invited? Thousands of troops for what?To drink tea and khat, look after sheep and camels?Or "train" the government?Where does it say that when an entity had legally declared war on you cannot go and meet them face to face on the frontline?

 

Hassan Dahir Aweys a well-known khawaarij is known only to know how to spill blood without having a clue or plan! He failed as he always did because he's doing was not a 'Jihaad' nor defensive Jihaad.

 

He is a khawariij and wasn't following the right quran and sunna right?All you are trying to do is the excuse the warlords and the invasion of somalia by Ethiopia.Furthermore the warlords who where regrouping and fought the i.c.u had a proven history of kidnapping ulema and even using mosques as rubbish sites.You'r telling us that these people where following the quran and sunnah? This is nothing to with islam rather cheering for the entity you support.

 

Your boys in Badioa had no say in the matter.

When general Abizaid came and met Zenawi in adiss, the money, intelligence and logistics was prepared.The top boys at the neo con and zionist heaquarters had given the go ahead for Ethiopia and America to strike, invade and dismantle the islamic courts union.Zenawi is not the leader of somalia nor are Neo cons.

 

Put your hand on your heart and tell me that, the islamic courts union did not have legitimacy to fight the ethiopian troops on somalia soil who had declared war on them?And don't tell me they had to get consent from the other clans.Tell me that the warlords had a legitimate cause as opposed to the i.c.u?.I actually agree with most of what you say but your total support for the actions of t.f.g make your views rather biased.Look at the title of the thread "thread on rebelling against muslims rulers" where the ethiopian parliament the rulers of Somalia?

[Pi]

MKA Yoonis: I am really ignorant when it comes to Somali Scholars. Can someone enlighten me? I'd like a brief biographical sketch of those scholars Rahima considers to be incomparable (Shariif Cabdi Nuur,Umal or Mustafa or Cukaasha) and those that you consider to be "patron saints" (Gacamey). I don't know any of them.

 

Are there any websites dedicated to them?

 

Please don't tell me that Somalis evaluate scholars in terms of where they're from. That's pure madness.

[Ms DD]

MKA Yoonis

 

"Walaal what do you say about the Hiz-ut-Tahriir, the Ikhwaanul Muslimiin, the Islaah group and the Jamaacatu Tabligh aren' they part of the 73 sects that will go to hell-fire!"

 

Above is very bold statement to make. Who gave you the authority to make such statement? We all know that 73 sects will go to hell-fire but do we know who? I dont think so. It would be really wise if you refrain from making such ludicurous remarks.

[Taako Man]

^ Sheikh Faarax Gacmey has alot of respect from the whole Puntland populace.

 

I know sheik Umal is neither a puntlander nor a Somali national. he is based in nairobi if I am correct. The other ones I am not sure.

[Fiqikhayre]

For me the religious discussion is over and I will not futher argue on the matter because everyone can see my record on the issue and make up their mind themselves but going forth and back will not bring anything contructive about!

 

I rebuked them already and they couldn't move for days!

 

The sister is talking emotions, you can see that from her abuse and rebuking of Puntland Scholars!

 

Sheikh Cabdulqadir Farah Gacmey is a very well know Caalim but unlike the sister I will not say anything bad about our muslim scholars she mentioned!

 

To Cambaro, if you don't know about that matter why raise them! I'm not a takfiiri but the righteous Ulama of this deen, who I follow said so because of the actions and methods of this people!

 

In islaam one can error or committ a sin but that will not take him out of the fold of Islaam but an aqaaid belief or ideology opposed to that of Islaam will take you out of the fold of Islaam!

 

For example if you deny the Cadaabul Qabr (the torturing in the grave) like the Jamacaatu Tabliigh do, then you become undoubtedly out of the fold of Islaam!

 

Because you're denying an important part of our dogma and ideology! But if you drink, fornicate, gamble or even kill that will not take you out of the fold of Islaam except that you believe that what you doing is 'lawful' i.e. if you say drinking Alcohol is lawful under Islaam, then you will get out of the fold of Islaam!

 

So educate yourselves I say about this groups and new sects from the righteous Mashaayiikh/Shuyuukh and Ulama of this deen who are Sheikh Al-Cuthaymiin, Bin Baz, Muqbil, Raafici and Sheikh Albani and what they said about those groups!

 

But don't listen to the Bin ladans, Ayman Al-Zawahiris, Zarqawis and the others such as the Qutubis, Islaahis and Ikhwaanul Muslimiin!

 

We can judge people about their actions and the things they commit like shirk, inventing things into the deen and throwing some of it's established belief pattersn away or refuse to accept them but not on the basis of committing sin!

[xiinfaniin]

Waryee beenta aayar saaxiib!

 

Puntland scholars including shiekh CQadir Nur Farax supported the icu! From Shiekh CNasir of Laascoonod, to Jamac Salam of Gaalkacyo, to the intellectual pen of Somali saxwa, Cabdullahi CaliXaashi, they all supported this movement adeer! In fact some of these great scholars mentioned above are either missing or wounded! There ofcourse hundreds of shabaabs from the said regions who got the shahaadah while fighting for the caused they believed in Bandariidley and Iidaale battles!

 

...just a little correction!

[Fiqikhayre]

You're distorting it Xiin, so stop the corruption!

 

Sheikh Cabdulqaadir and other Puntland Ulama were meeting in Bosaso on how to implement sharia law properly, they advised the government on what is good in private!

 

Then they made supplication for Adde and his government, that's the righteous way!

 

But they didn't go to call for futile revolution and I thank them for that!

 

Sheikh Cabdulqaadir Gacmey is the most respected Scholar in Islaam in the state of Puntland and his words count! He's the Mufti/Qaadi of the Puntland and may Allaah protect him!

[xiinfaniin]

That was a correction so don’t turn it into one those pointless duals of yours that you are seemingly so fond of, adeer!

 

The theatre of the revolution was in the south and Puntland scholars resisted to prematurely move it to other regions but as you know actions speak louder than words and Jamac Cabdi-Salaam and Cabdullaahi CalXaashi with hundred of shabaabs fought in Bandiiradley! It’s impossible for Cabul-Qadir to fight but he gave his support and approved for those shabaabs who wanted to partake in the Jihaad against Ethiopia!

 

As for the infamous pact between certain scholars and Cadde, that as we all understand now was a wishful thinking from both parts. Cadde’s hasty withdrawal was no less an indication of how his regional superiors disapproved of him and his appeasement!

[xiinfaniin]

That was a correction so don’t turn it into one those pointless duals of yours that you are seemingly so fond of, adeer!

 

The theatre of the revolution was in the south and Puntland scholars resisted to prematurely move it to other regions but as you know actions speak louder than words and Jamac Cabdi-Salaam and Cabdullaahi CalXaashi with hundred of shabaabs fought in Bandiiradley! It’s impossible for Cabul-Qadir to fight but he gave his support and approved for those shabaabs who wanted to partake in the Jihaad against Ethiopia!

 

As for the infamous pact between certain scholars and Cadde, that as we all understand now was a wishful thinking from both parts. Cadde’s hasty withdrawal was no less an indication of how his regional superiors disapproved of him and his appeasement!

[Khalaf]

Originally posted by MKA Yoonis:

 

So educate yourselves I say about this groups and new sects from the righteous Mashaayiikh/Shuyuukh and Ulama of this deen who are

Sheikh Al-Cuthaymiin, Bin Baz, Muqbil, Raafici and Sheikh Albani and what they said about those groups!

 

But don't listen to the Bin ladans, Ayman Al-Zawahiris, Zarqawis and the others such as the Qutubis, Islaahis and Ikhwaanul Muslimiin!

[/QB]

1. Who are those righteous sheikhs? 'patron saint'....dat dont sound islamic....what are their views on jihad against for example a ruler that commits open kufar ie the shah in Iran? they sound like the ulma who are paid by the state ie KSA!

 

2. Ikhwaanul Muslimiin, Hizb? Sxb dont acuse ppl and say they will enter hell for "innovations" what innovations are u acussing them those who are of ahlus sunnah wal jammah? bring forth your proof 1.

[Fiqikhayre]

You're a disillustionit khwaarij utopian adeer and because you couldn't argue with me properly you distort to corruption!

 

At one hand Sheikh Gacmey was working with the government to uphold the civil peace but on the other hand he was giving his 'blessings' to the shaabaab fighters in Bendiradley, there is your khwaarij logic for you!

 

The Sheikh didn't agree with the futile revolution and he didn't gave his blessing to fight and bring down the peace in Puntland reason because he is a man who doesn't believe in burning down his own house without a plan of how to restore it again!

 

Usually if you bring down a house you need constitutions plan of how to rebuild it properly and better!

[Fiqikhayre]

You're a disillustionit khwaarij utopian adeer and because you couldn't argue with me properly you distort to corruption!

 

At one hand Sheikh Gacmey was working with the government to uphold the civil peace but on the other hand he was giving his 'blessings' to the shaabaab fighters in Bendiradley, there is your khwaarij logic for you!

 

The Sheikh didn't agree with the futile revolution and he didn't gave his blessing to fight and bring down the peace in Puntland reason because he is a man who doesn't believe in burning down his own house without a plan of how to restore it again!

 

Usually if you bring down a house you need constitutions plan of how to rebuild it properly and better!