Thread on rebellion against muslim rulers!

[Khalaf]

Originally posted by Taliban:

You aren't wrong. Surely, you can't suggest Muslims like Sheikh Dahir Aweys, Sheikh Sharif Ahmed and hundreds thousands (if not millions) devout Somalis have more faith in clan than in Islam.

no i do believe many somalis love Islam more by Allah i do we are one brotherhood one ummah. but to get back to the courts sxb they were clan based no? that makes them clannish. And their leaders were one subclan no? they chased out other warlords from different subclans but not theirs (white eyes) no? How come they did not diversify their leadership and have well known scholars from Puntland, Somaliland, Gedo regions or at least have their support :confused: .....

[Fabregas]

Sheikhow brother you have made some excellent points lakin you haven't got to the crux of the issue and answered the questions i posed.I agree with most of what you say.This same message was given long ago by a man called Abdullah Azzam to the muslim brotherhood members such as zawahiri and others whom where tortured in secular prisons thus wanted to overthrow muslim secular governments. Sheikh Azzam simply wanted to concentrate on freeing the muslims lands first such as palestine, afghanistan, and Chechnya etc. However the sheikh was mysteriously killed in a bomb as he walked out of a masjid.After this what you had was confused groups of muslims carrying out acts of terror here and there and justifying it in the name of Islam. Which led to the blood of the muslims being spilled in places such as Algeria.This must be avoided at all costs.

 

However this is completly different from the situation in Somalia. You are right the islamic courts union recognized the T.F.G and even said they would welcome the president in muqdisho.On this i agree with you completely. But what you have not clarified is the involvement of a third party, namely Ethiopia.Was it islamically justified to declare a jihad against the invading Absynian troops?Thus far all you have said is that the T.F.G can make treaties with anyone they like, this is not the issue at hand.When the islamic cours came to the table all they said was remove the ethio troops and we will negotiate with the T.F.G.However the t.f.g refused to remove the ethiopian troops and claimed that the ethio troops where only advisors. This was far from the case thousands of troops had circled Somalia with the help of somali warlords such as Qeybdiid near Galkacyo. During this time General Abizaid of America had met Meles Zenawi for discussions(probably for war).Furthermore Meles Zenawi had reported to the world and his parliament that His State had made "all preparations for war".In addition to this the Ethiopian Parliament had voted overwhelmingly for war against the islamic courts union:

 

http://www.ethiopianreporter.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=10153

Dr. Negasso Gidada, former president of the Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopia

 

In essence, are you saying that the Ethiopian government entered a war without a declaration by parliament?

 

Yes, it has already entered into a war. Again, recently the prime minister openly stated that we are technically at war. This is wrong. We just can't go to war by bypassing what the constitution requires. We shouldn't do it again. We must respect the constitutional order. This is a breach of the constitution.

 

 

 

Last Thursday, the PM told parliament repeatedly that we are at war with the Islamists even though we didn't respond. In your opinion, does the present situation constitute a war-like situation? And does it warrant the parliament to declare war?

 

 

Well, four reasons were given to justify it as a war. The first one is that they declared jihad on Ethiopia. But when they declared jihad on Ethiopia, they qualified it to have meant only on Ethiopian soldiers who entered Somalia. As for their declaring jihad on Ethiopia, I don't know: it could be a matter of interpretation .

 

 

 

Did they really declare jihad against Ethiopia and crossed the border? Is that the fact? I don't think so. As comparison, if you take the conflict with Eritrea, that country, in fact, crossed the border and took control of parts of our territory. But we don't see similar situation this time around.

 

 

 

The other thing that amazes me is that Ethiopia is under repeated attack from the Somali forces and that we are absorbing those attacks according to the prime minister. If that is the truth, then why did the government keep silent? An emergency session of the parliament should have been called and the problem must have been dealt with.

 

 

 

The second reason given is that the Islamic Courts are assisting and sending here anti-Ethiopia forces. This was not clearly explained. What kind of anti-Ethiopia forces are these. Are they snicking in Somali or foreign jihadists into Ethiopia? Or are they supporting and sending other local opposition forces such as the ****** National Liberation Front (ONLF)? These local opposition forces have long existed. Did they train and send fresh forces during the summer? Despite this, I believe that going to the extent of declaring war ought to be reconsidered. I don't think there is a situation currently which forces us to go to war. I see a problem with the request forwarded to parliament to give the green light.

 

 

As you can see from this interview a third party in reality a kafir led state had declared war on an islamic party of sorts(Islamic Courts Union). This means that the T.F.G where deceiving the I.C.U and the somali public as the "advisors" they had brought into somalia had been preparing for war all along.Furthermore the Ethiopian Parliament not the Somali Parliament had voted for war against the Islamic Courts.Technically this can be interprted as meaning that the Ethiopian Troops on Somalia soil where at war with the islamic courts as their superiors had ordered them to prepare for war. What do you think sheikh should have been the response of the islamic courts union?Put down their weapons and give them all to the T.F.G whilst their friends across the border and the somali warlors had made "all preparation for war"? At this point my opinion is that issue had surpassed the t.f.g and the i.c.u, rather it was that a third party had declared war on the islamic courts. Where the islamic courts not jusitified in resisting the Ethiopian troops on somali soil whom they had asked to peacefully leave all along?Should they have hid in the mosques and quietly preach dawa? What is the true islamic response when a kafir led state declares war on you(islamic courts union) and sends thousands of troops across the border?

[Rahima]

How come they did not diversify their leadership and have well known scholars from Puntland, Somaliland, Gedo regions or at least have their support

Little you know Khalaf. The courts were made up of every qabiil and had support from all the Somali Culimaa’, from Shariif Cabdi Nuur (arguably the most learned somali man in Islam), Umal, Mustafa, Shibbille etc. All of these learned men hail from every corner of the horn, from SL, PL to the south.

 

You see that is when you know that one should support an establishment- when the scholars give their support.

[Taliban]

Originally posted by Khalaf:

but to get back to the courts sxb they were clan based no? that makes them clannish. And their leaders were one subclan no? they chased out other warlords from different subclans but not theirs (white eyes) no? How come they did not diversify their leadership and have well known scholars from Puntland, Somaliland, Gedo regions or at least have their support :confused: .....

No, the courts were not clan based, and their leaders were not one subclan. They chased out warlords (Yalaxoow, Qeybdiid, Hiraale, Caydiid, Dheere, iwm) from different subclans as well from their own subclans. They had and still have diverse leadership from Puntland, Somaliland, Gedo regions, iwm. Those diverse leadership from other regions might not be well known scholars, because the well known scholars have been arrested by the secular regimes of those regions and sold to Ethiopia and the US, while others are being tortured in jails/prisons of those regions. I am sure you have seen the video of the well known scholar from Somaliland who was being tortured by the secular regime of that region. Of course, you are entitled to hold a different viewpoint of the truth, which is understandable for that's what "democracy" or "freedom of speech" is about.

[Fiqikhayre]

Brother thanks very much for your reply and let me deal with the views and concerns you have highlighted!

 

You've said that the TFG was betraying the courts by keeping ethiopian troops in the land that would eventually threaten the ICU's existence, right? If not so correct me please!

 

For you it was an act of declartion of war from the Ethiopians inside Somalia to the ICU!

 

Yes, it could be true but what should the ICU have done brother is the question!

 

Wallahi I know what it comes to the ICU could have survived because it was prevented by Aweys for political reasons because it would mean him losing! Actually he would be thrown out of the window, the decision of war came from them and it was not steming from their islamic believe!

 

Many people think Indhacadde is a lunatic the courts are lunatics for declaring a war on Ethiopia but I don't think that way, I would allude that they simply did not have any choice!

 

The negotions stopped and were halted because they could not agree on several issues!

 

The government put it on the table that Aweys and his international group of 'jihadists' i.e. khwarij would not be allowed to be in the country because they would harm the government so the governement call for their removal!

 

However if the courts were stronger in their faith and they didn't look out for the interests of certain indiviuals they would have dealt and asked their friend Hassan Dahir Aweys together with their 'Jihadists' to go and seek refuge somewhere else, I would think that Saudi, Egypt, Sudaan, Djibout and Yemen would not hesistate to have those people staying in their countries and offering them asylum!

 

Now that would be the best option because you cannot hand these people over to the Americans and others and they shouldn't have been because an offer was alread on the table, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan, Djibouti and Yemen were all willing to take them!

 

Then after that the government of Somalia have been reassured that the trouble makers have been ousted, America would not even do anything they'd forced to be silent and many of the death in southern Somalia would have not occured!

 

The Shariif Ahmad wing would have taken over and after a couple of years, where they purify and teach the people, they could take power and then recall their former friends to the country, that's politics brother!

 

Think of it, the Americans were out for this folks so where many enemies, because Aweys was harbouring terrorists in Somalia the embassy bombers that's why he was disliked but still he could travel to Saudi, UAE and Egypt which he did a couple of month ago but they didn't play the game because they're men that don't have an understaning of the sunnah!

 

Back to the Ethiopions brother the 'jihaad' was a farce because you and me knew that jihaad has some shuruuds!

 

One of them is that you've to be ready for it! Can we say honestly that the courts were ready for jihaad?

 

No is the answer! They were miliatary not ready and spiritually aswell!

 

Brother Purification and teaching has to come first before you wage Jihaad! How could they call for jihaad when amongst them were divisions in the aqeedah! The Qutubis, Jamaatu Tabligh, Salafi jadiid, Jihadists Ittihaad and Islaah and so many more were amongst them! Shouldn't they have purified their aqeedah first! Let alone the many clan warriors, self-guarding intersts groups, clan haters and opposers that were fighting along side them!

 

How could such an unholy alliance succeed in a Jihaad brother?

 

How could you do jihaad when you ideologically differ or detest the person that is fighting along side you and you're in groups and don't fight together or socilase?

 

Think of it brother! A poem said 'Establish islamic rule into your heart and it will be established for you in the world (earth)'!

 

This people have not purified themselves nor their souls do you think Allaah will grant them victory!

 

Think of it akhi! It was a mere political game that was played nothing else the khawaarij or Hassan Dahirs idea was to keep Somalia in anarchy because he hoped then his group would train and then conquer the whole country that in itself is a sick mentality because a man who wants for a tired nation and people to bring further misery on them whilst they're lying down to create a futile revolution that will not last!

 

Think yaa akhi!

[Fiqikhayre]

I challenge Xiin for a debate at a time of his choosing inshallah!

 

Xiin choose your time and we should discuss in this thread or another inshallaah in the audience of this gallery being or witness!

 

Bring forth your arguments I want a live discussion with you!

[Khalaf]

Little i know muminah! All i know were the interest driven icu leaders I wonder what the good sheikhs u listed would say against the points fiqq brought up (about the methods) and Sh. Abdullah Azzam believed!

 

Taliban the world is not black n white sxb...this conflict in somalia and what is happening in falistine even they are not united and are killing each other.......this so called "ummah"..... :confused:

[Khayr]

لاطاعة لمخلوق في معصية الخالخ

There is no Obedience in the creature when disobeying the Creator (ALLAH)

How you can justify siding with those that want to uphold Secularism against those that want to establish the Word of Allah as Supreme is beyond rational. And on top of that, you try to use the deen to support those that don't want the deen. :confused:

 

 

Allah yaheedka!

[Fiqikhayre]

Folks the debate is closed inshallaah. The logic has prevailed and the illogical challengers to that logic have been dismantled one by one!

 

They couldn't come up with any counter-arguments and therby have fled the scene. Again Fiqqikhayyre has done it to them and he will inshallaah continue doing it to them until they hold up their hands really high and visible and say 'We were wrong', 'Please don't condemn us any further'!

 

They have been given a taste of their own medicine and now I'm heading towards the fake nationalists and inshallaah taking them out one by one and exhibited their fake nationalism and fakery!

 

One has already tasted the blows soon many will follow and the wind will also blow them off inshallaah!

 

Fiqqikhayyre their worst nightmare, they run a mile when they see him coming!

[Fabregas]

Sheikh you haven't dismantled anyone, all you have said thus far is that there was no jihad against abysnia because there was, no imam, lack of unity ie aqeedah,etc....You also said, when you where hypothetically speaking if sheikh shariff would have done this and that, dahir should have done this and that.....This is all assuming things with hindesight. Of course naturally you will tell us that there was no jihad against the abysnians on somalia soil.But a scholar of islam might easily disagree with you.Like those scholars who where present on the ground in somalia. The everyday dude should not declare fatwas........

[Fiqikhayre]

No one is declaring fatwas akhi but I'm putting a restraint on the runners that's all akhi!

 

I say put the things in place lets purify and teach then can we agree on a strategy to win the hearts of our people but not in the khawaarij way of opposing the government by throwing handgrenades at a market and therefore putting ordinary citizens into harms way and increasing the deaths of many by unlawful and ill-planned bloodletting!

 

I'm advocting for peace whilst the khawaarij think they can win a war by harming the ordinary citizens in the way of standing against them and a government if it's a good or bad isn't in question here but the maslaxa of the ummah!

 

I'm reiterating to save the innocent people of Somalia but not allowing them to inflict on them more harm they can not bear, you see the logic?

 

Those who oppose without a plan are clueless bloodspillers who want civil strife and chaos to peak in our battered, bruised and brutalised nation, they're not working for the Maslaxa of this ummah!

 

Is that too hard to understand or comprehend? Yes, they all ran off because they couldn't stand their ground and have been exposed one by one so the discussion is over and the logic has prevailed!

 

You did not bring anything new neither did you oppose nor did you support it shows why the others have chosen to stay away because you cannot debate with logic and the ultimate truth!

[Fabregas]

I haven't opposed or supported because i do not have the neccesary knowledge to give fatwas on the net .Rebelling against a muslim government and fighting an invading army of kufar is two different things.As i said before you may say that the where was no jihad against the Ethiopian invaders on somali soil.But a scholar or a sheikh on the ground at that time in somalia might say differently.Note that i am not refering to the incidents of throwing hand grenades but the initial conflict with the ethiopians and their American allies.Your opinion is that there was no struggle against them. Others may differ but it doesn't prove in any way shape or form you are right.

[Caano Geel]

Q.

Define 'Muslim government'

[Fiqikhayre]

Q.

Where is a muslim government?

[Rahima]

Little i know muminah! All i know were the interest driven icu leaders I wonder what the good sheikhs u listed would say against the points fiqq brought up (about the methods) and Sh. Abdullah Azzam believed!

Khalaf I’m not in the mood to engage with people who are driven by clan and worship the clan (not yourself), that is why I wouldn’t even bother addressing a thread misusing Islam to support oppression. But just an overview allow me to remind you of a few Islamic principles:

 

-In general Islam orders that evil can only be removed by that which will itself remove or reduce the evil and not exacerbate it.

 

-Warning off evil by ways which will result in greater evils is not permissible, however if in the case of a leader which openly commits acts of Kufr (note acts, not a kafir), if a group of Muslims is able to remove this leader in a way which will benefit the Muslims and not create more evil then letting this leader be, then as is the ijmaac of the scholars it is permitted to remove him from his post. This of course is after this leader has been advised of his faults many a times. The UIC tried many many times to meet with this government of ours, pleaded with them to come to negotiation table, stated that since we are brothers let us build a nation on the principles of Islam. This government however refused; instead they resorted to the language of the kufaar by labelling their brothers terrorists. Up until the point where this government employed the aid of kufaar the courts were far more able and undoubtedly were had the power to remove this government in a way which would not result in a greater evil- mind you they didn’t even get to this point. The courts were able to provide the people with peace and prosperity that this government was unable to do.

 

-Another major point in Islam is that to employ the aid of the kufaar against your own brethren is another act of kufr- a point once again this government was and is guilty of. Now I’m sure some will say that courts used the aid of the Eriterian administration- this is nothing but an accusation thus far, unlike Ethiopia which has openly admitted to their involvement. Muslim eriterians who wanted to participate in a jihad (their intention is with Allah) are separate from their kaafir administration. That said, one also becomes a hypocrite when they use the aid of the kufaar against their brothers.

 

-Next is jihad in self-defence when a Muslim land is attacked by kufaar, in this case Ethiopia invading Somalia. In this situation where the whole region is overrun by kufaar it becomes obligatory upon every Muslim to defend their homes, lives and honour and it becomes obligatory upon every Muslim not in direct attack (like ourselves) to assist in any way that we can.

 

All these fiqhi points brother are points of general consensus amongst the scholars, the daleels for them are everywhere (if it is a point of interest you can research them). As for the intentions of the wadaado- that you do not know aside from what you have read from the qabiil orientated somali media who are misguided into thinking that the wadaado put qabiil before islam. That is the speciality of CY and Qaybdeed-not men of religion.