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Yes, indeed, ...........The Shia of Noah, Abraham Jacob, David, Moses, Jesus , Mohammad .... Abu Bakar, Omar, Othman, ALI , HASSAN , HUSSEIN!!!!! and all of those who follow the footsteps of the Messenger of Allah with Ihsaan. .........and a Sunni because I am A Follower of the Sunnah of Prophet Muahhamd SAWS**



The long awaited topic is about to start, the format is different, it is not complete as I have collected more information than printable amid all the calls from Viking and Mutakallim to address the core issues of Aqeedah, so with Allah's help I will begin. Please come back to the same page for contniuation of the topic.





This is the summary of my research the past few days, I realize how painful it is to present facts that question the validity of of one's faith, but as long as few people on this SOL forum are active in preaching their beliefs and the rest of the audience are not getting a counter point of this orchestrated effort from the Shia brothers and sisters on this forum, I will do my best to dig into their sources and present my findings, not to insult them as they are quick to say, but to give the audience another perspective in order to judge it for themselves as they are the target of the orchestrated effort of some of the Nomads who are passing themselves as another Islamic school of thought with minor differences with the majority Sunnah.


After reading the materials I researched in the Shia literature, you the reader will be the judge if I am insulting anyone or if indeed I am simply presenting raw facts about their faith.


I am well aware that I may not convince them, but I pray, after all is said, that they will go back to their mentors and demand answers to the questions I raise, and hopefully follow the straight path inshAllah, I have written over six hundred posts on this board, my landmark is that of a writer who is doing community work, my work is cut out for me, I want all of those who are in search of Allah SWT to be saved, that includes me, because I believe that my salvation is conditional to the delivery of the messages of Allah SWT to his servants, specially SOL Nomads. Allah SWT says:


" Qul innii lan yujiirunii minal Allaahi axadun wa lan ajida min duunihii multaxadaa, illaa balaaghan minallaahi wa risaalaatihi "


" Say, No one is going to rescue me from Allah's( punishment), and further, I will not find no refuge other than with him, If I fail to deliver Allah's messages(to mankind) " . Quraan, Suurah Al Jinn. So help me yaa Allah, amin.



The Research.


Will answer:


1. Who are the Shia, their past and present


2. What do they believe that differs from the Sunnah wal Jamaacah


3. What are their beliefs ( Aqaaed) like Brother Mutakallim called it.


Note: My work is all prepared from original ingredients, I never ( CUT and PASTE) , so what you will read is my hand typed written materials only, I go out of my way to assure reliability of sources. I read, understand , then relay it to you in my way, and back up all I say with references that are available and accepted by stakeholders of this issue ( Shai, Sunnis).



Bismillah wa bihi astaciin, wa usallii wa usallim calaa Rasuulihi Muxammad wa calaa Aalihi addayibiin attaahiriin wa saxbihi wa man ittabacahum bi ixsaanin ilaa yowmiddiin



The Shia


I looked up the word Shia in the Dictionary of the Quraan, here is the exact meaning of the word I found the following meanings( hence the Title of my Post):


1. A plural form, root Category ( Faclah); Followers and Defenders. In the Quraan " Wa inna min Shiicatihi la Ibraahim, Idh jaa'a Rabbahu bi qalbin Saliim " " Abraham was one of his ( Noah's) helpers and supporters when he approached His Lord with a non deffective heart ( Saleem) , ( defective heart is a heart that beleives in Shirk, in any form ). Abraham earned this great title of being a Shia of Noah for simply questioning the status quo, saying " Idh qaala li qawmihi maa tacbuduun * A Ifkan aalihatan duuna Allahi turiiduun ?" meaning: " When he said to his folk, what are you worshipping?, Are you seeking false gods other than Allah " Suuraah Saaffat 83-86


2. A Group, " Thumma la nanzicanna min kulli Shiicatin, ayyuhum ashaddu calaa Raxmaani citiyaa "

" Then we shall take out ( A sampling, the leaders) from every (Shia) group (who helped each other in Shirk) to see which one of them was most involved in Shirk ( worshipping others beside Allah)"



Historical Development Of Shiaism .


It was a great day when Allah SWT sent a Messenger to mankind who taught them the book ( Al Quraan) and wisdom, making lawful that which is good and making unlawful that which is bad for them.


When the revelations came down to Muhammad SAWS, the first adult person after his wife Khadiija and his servant Zeid Ibn Haritha, to beleive in him was Abubakar Radiyallahu canhu, his cousin Ali who was a young boy , those two, Abu Bakar and Ali, one very mature man and a child will who lived and died on the same path of islam following the teachings of Prophet SAWS, will leave a remarkable history behind them for Muslims the world over.


Abu Bakar, was nicknamed the Siddiq, the man who believed in him when his folk denied the message, the man who traveled with him in the risky path of Hegirah to Makkah, leaving behind his possessions, and family to accompany the prophet SAWS, one of the few companions who Allah SWT honored in the Quraan when Allah SWT referred to him as " The Friend Of the Messenger when they were hiding in the cave of Hiraa " Idh Qaala li saaxibihi, laa taxzan, innAllah macanaa" when he said to his friend, do not be sad, Allah is on our side " a man who'd later be the father in law of the prophet SAWS, and who had the honor of being asked to lead the Messneger of Allah in prayer when the prophet was sick.



As the Prophet SAWS and Abu Bakar made their get-away , Ali May Allah be pleased with him, on the other hand was left behind to sleep in the Prophet's bed to fool Qureish impersonating the prophet SAWS, Quresih hired hands where waiting to ambush and kill the Prophet SAWS in his sleep, only to find out that it was Ali in the bed, Ali being Abi Talibs little boy, he could not be harmed, Abi Talib was a fellow Mushrik.


Ali Radiyallahu Canhu was a man of piety and fear of Allah SWT, a man who grew up in the house of the Prophecy, the youngest to accept Islam and one of the most brave warriors in the history of Islam, Ali Radiyallahu canhu was very dear to the Prophet SAWS as he married his beloved daughter, Fatima, giving birth to the Hassan and Hussein, two toddlers who had the honor to have a joy ride on the back of the prophet SAWS while in prayer, he loved them dearly as any grandfather loves his grandchildren.



The message of the Prophet SAWS was simple, Laa ilaaha illaa Allah, No deity other than Allah SWT.



Tawheed, the basic Faith



When the prophet SAWS called his tribe the Qureish  for Islam, they asked him about the essense of his message.



The prophet told them ( "My message is laa ilaaha illa Allah ")


A bedouin responded, ( then all Arabs and non Arabs will fight against you for establishing this creed ).


Because the bedouin knew the far reaching meaning of the word ILAAH in Arabic language.


In Suuratl Jinn, aayah 19, Allah says " And when the Abdullah Servant of Allah stood up to calling for his (ilaah), (the polytheists) almost ganged up against him"  at that distant time, there was a confusion about the meaning of ilaah, because Quresih insisted that they only glorify their dead saints, or the daughters of God as they claimed to get them close to Allah SWT. So in order to have a unified meaning of ilaah, here is the linguistic meaning of ilaah in Arabic:


The root meaning of the word ILAAH was derived from the Arabic word (ALIHA) the masdar of this word means among others:


1. To seek a protection ( Like an infant seeks mother's love , warmth and protection)


2. To seek a rescuer ( in times of distress)


3. To seek the highest authority, no one scapes from ( Jurisdiction and Sovereignty).


4. It meant leadership. ( ZACIIM UL QOWM)


5. Any thing one follows against orders of Allah, even desires is called ilaa.


Ali Radiyallahu Canhu learned that principle the most, he was one of the four imaams of Islam and one of the bravest companions of the prophet SAWS. Once he volunteered to fight a vicious Qureishi challanger, he was very young, but Ali insisted he can take him on, Muslims watched the fight in awe, and amazingly, the Qureishi kufr imaam falls and Ali is about to strike at him and chop his head off, the Qureishi kufr imaam in arrogance spits on Ali's face, and contrary to what most of us would do in such a situation, like killing the Quresihi, Ali surprised everyone by walking away and giving a chance to the fighter who was much stronger, experienced and older. Ali would later kill him, and when asked why he a risk with such a great opportunity, he said " I was fighting him in the cause of Allah ALONE, but when he spit on my face, I got angry, i realized that my intentions to kill the man where no longer for Allah alone, as I was angry at him spitting on my face, so, I walked away to dedicate my effort to Allah SWT alone".


Ali Radiyallahu canhu was fighting an imaam of the Kuffar of Qureish, Allah SWT says, " Wa qaatiluu a'immatal kufr" meaning " fight the imaams of Kufr" . So what is the meaning of the word Imaam in Arabic? It simply means (Qudwah), leadership, and a Model to be followed.



The Imamate in Quraan


In Quraan Allah SWT says : " Wa jacalnaahum a'imattan yahduuna bi amrinaa lammaa sabaruu, wa awxeynaa ileyhim, ficla al kheyraat, wa iqaama salaat wa iitaa'a zakaat, wa kaanuu lanaa khaashiciin " we have made them ( the Prophets) Models to be emulated who show the way with our authority after they endured (trials), and we have communicated with them to do good, to establish prayers and pay the poor's due, and they were responsive to our (wish) ( Allah)" Suurah Anbiyaa 73



A Brief History Of the Shia



A major confusion that arose in this SOL forum is the apparent scholarly gap between some of the audience and debators on one hand, and bewteen debators themselves on the other. In my writings, I was initially looking for a debate that addresses present day Shiism and its validity, I did not bother to present the background of the development of Shiism, rather I posted stark materials to show how far we have grown apart after being a single ummah, any Sunni who reads what i posted about present day Shiism would shake his head in disbelief to the point that to some, it may look like an outright fabrication, when in all honesty the materials I posted are well imbedded in the present day literature of the Shia and their most respected books .


The problem of the Shia literature is the process of authentication, ( verifying the authors of the Shia hadeeths, their background, their tribes or nationalitities, their credibility level, etc. I have yet to read their authentication process similar to the Sunni stringent process I posted before which gave us the likes of Al Bukhari, Muslim and Tirmidhi Saxiix Hadeeths collection. Or a Hadeeth authentication Process Scientist like Ibn Salaah. So you may ask, then how can we resolve the conflict between the Sunni perception of greatness and piety of the Imams of the Alal beit we have just mentioned, and the present day Shia literatutre claiming that these great imaams have said these nonesense Hadeeths, a selection of which I have posted on other threads? which luckily my adversary, Mutakallim denies them, like the hadeeths about the falsification of the Quran and other more Aqeedah damaging hadeeths in the most reliable Shia literature? I hope Mutakallim realizes the dimensions of this problem.



Here is the unswer.



The Development Of The Shia Sect


Shiaism went through three distinct stages.


1. The First Phase Shia Early Shia.


They were the companions who lived at the time of the Caliphate ofAmirul Mumineen Ali, RAA, the time of Fitna and confusion, who stood by him, supported him and followed him with ihsan, some of them even won the honor of Shahaadah with him, the Shia of Ali, they were on the right path XAQQ. It was reported that Ali was once asked, " Why do we see so much confusion in your Caliphate while there was no confusion in the Caliphate of Abu Bakar, and Omar"? Ali witfully responded " Kaanuu yaxkumuuna amthaalii wa ana axkumu amthaalukum" meaning, they ( Abu Bakar and Omar) where leading (ideal)citizens like me, and I am leading (not ideal )citizens like you" clearly showing that those who opposed Ali where wrong and confused people, and those who followed Ali where the guided ones. The Shia of Ali in that era where some of the best men on earth like the companion, Abdullahi son of Omar RAA, they never talked bad against any companion, nor called them Kaafir, and never differed in anything in the faith from those who opposed them politically.



2. Second Phase Shia


These men appeared three years after the first group, they were dissenters who believed that Ali RAA was better, ideal for leadership ( AFZAL) than all other companions, and that he had a special place. Men like Abi Saeed Yahya Ibn Umair. Like their predecessors, they never insulted any of the companions, never hated them nor preached hate against them, they never introduced any new Fiqh ( Jurisprudence) , Aqaed( beliefs) different than the mainstream Islam. They were seen as wrong by the Majority, but never seen ouside the limits of the Sunnah. Because the Ummah unanimously agreed that the best companion after the Messenger of Allah was Abu Bakar, with Ali's approval and loyalty to him when he took power, and then Omar, and then Othman and the Ali, in that order.



The Third Phase Shia


Also known as the ( Saba'eyyah) by the founder of this group who was a convert Jew, who was the first to insult the companions openly and regarded them kuffar and hypocrites except for very few like Salman Al Farisi and others. They claim that all the companions who came to Ghadeer Khum and who failed to make baycah to Ali became Kufaar. This group appeared during the time of Ali, RAA, this group was inflamed with hate by Abdullah Ibn Saba Al Yahudi Al Sancaani, Ali as you could imagine rejected them, Ali Radiyahllahu canhu after he heard their claim said " If I hear anyone making me more privileged (Afzal) than the two Sheiks ( Abu Bakar and Omar), I will punish him ( wipping) for blasphemy". After they became afraid from Ali, they began to spread their concept secrely in their meetings, (hence the secrecy issue in Shiasm to this day). It is reported that Ali was so annoyed by this claim that he said to Abdullah ibn Saba " You will not live in the same place with me" He was later bansihed to Mada'en .


After this incident many companions who were Shia in the older way, were shocked and disassociated themselves from this new blasphemy, rejoining their brethren the Sunnah, Al Waaqedi reported that " if in the Sunnah literature you find that Fulaan , so an so was a Shia, it could well mean that he was one of the top leaders of the Sunnah wal jamaacah, because he was partof the old order of Shia who were same like Sunnah" . Imam Shafici who Majority of Somalis follow his Fiqh when accused of being a Shia for his love of the Aalal Beyt said with confidnece in his famous poem : " If the Love of The Aalal Beyt makes me Rafidhi, Let all people know that I am a Rafidhi" , and shouldn't we all be Shiis like him if that is the only criteria that matters?




In this thread we learned:


Meaning of the word Shia , Ilaah , and Imaam

Keywords that will serve as a benchmark and a common reference point for the discussion to come.


NEXT : The Shia School Of Thought


How many types of Shia and their differences

Special attention to Present Shia Imaamiyah Ithnaa ashariyah, heir Aqaed ( beliefs)


Their Scolars, Books, Beliefs.



Extreme Shia ( Ghulaat)


Are those who believe the divinity of Ali Radiyallahu Canhu, they appeared during the time of Ali. One of their key advocates was Abu Hadeed, their extremism continued through the ages, flourishing when ignorance is predominant and becoming dormant when people became well informed. Thes extreme views gave birth to many forms of present day Shia of which the Ithnaa Ashariyah imaamiyyah Shia is at the forefront.



The Shia Ithnaa Asheriyyah, imaamiyyah .


They are called Ithnaa Asheriyah ( Twelvers) for believing twelve Imaams as the Sacred Imaams, who are infallible , have access to the Ghaib of Allah ( the unknown knowledge of Allah ), representing Allah on earth by being middlemen between men and their creator, accepting prayers, enriching the needy, healing the sick and in generalthey believe that seeking the imaams is a must for those seeking Allah SWT. This Shia sect appeared in the year Hegirah 255 and here is a list of their twelve Imams:


1. Ali Ibn Abi Talib also known as Abul Hassan


2. Al Hassan Ibn Ali, also known as Zaki


3. Al Hussein Ibn Ali the Martyr also known as Abu Abdullah


4. Ali Ibn Al Hussein also known as Al Sajjad (Always making Sujuud) and Zein al Abiding


5. Muhammad Ibn Ali Ibn Hussein also known as Al Baaqir, Abu Jaafar


6. Hussein Ibn Muhammad Ibn Ali also known as Al Sadiq


7. Mousa Ibn Jaafar also known also known as Al Kazem


8. Ali Ibn Mousa also known as Al Reza, Abul Hassan


9. Muhammad Ibn Ali Ibn Mousa also known as Al Taqi, Al Jawwad


10. Ali Ibn Muhammad Ibn Muhammad Ibn Ali also known as Al Naqi


11. Al Hassan Ibn Ali Ibn Muhammad also known as Al Askari


12. Muhammad Ibn Hassan Al Askari .


This last Sacred Imam, Muhammad Ibn Hassan Al Askari who assumed the Sacred Imaam Title as a Kid, is said to have disappeared at age 4, he is missing to this day and he is expected to return as the Mahdi who will uphold justice on earth .


The Ithna Asheriyah Imaamiyah Shia innovated much of what is seen today of Shiism, and although much of their literature indirectly implies Sacred status of Ali, thay have not directly claimed his out right Divinity, neither have they joined the purity of Aqeedah of the first Shia generation of Shia who held same beliefs likie their Sunnah brethern, however they believe that:


A. Ali shares the Prophethood with Prophet Muhammad SAWS .


B The Rajcah Concept: (that all their Imaams will come back alive again, each one living a term as the rightful Khalif which was denied him by Sunnis, until all rights that was due to them are given in Rajcah concept, Abu Bakar and Omar will be taken out of the grave in Madinah desecrated, and Crucified in public before they are sent to hell, like all the Sunnis .


C. Al Budaa : A concept that says that Allah SWT changes his mind frequently, and the unreliability of the perfection of Quraan as they also claim that the Holy Quraan was changed by their adversaries to take out all reference of the sanctity of their Imaams .


Main Scholars of the Shia Ithna Asheria .


( I have used their sources to show their beliefs )


1. Abdullah Ibn Saba Al Yahudi Al Sancaani: Source look at the biographies of Shia Scholars ( Rijalul Kashi, a Shia Writer)

The First to claim the Holy Imaamate of Ali, openly cursed Abu Bakar, claimed that all Companions of the Messneger who Allah SWT said about them in Quraan " Laqad Radiy Allahu Canil Muminiin) Allah was pleased with the believers ( Companions)", That all of these companions became hypocrites and Kuffar except for three companions, Salman the Persian, Abu Dharr Al Ghaffari, and Al Miqdaad Ibn ul Aswad. The Shia justify their claim of the unreliability of the Quraan on this fact, that they can not trust to take their Quraan from Kuffaar.


2. Ali Ibn Ibrahim Al Qumi , died 307 AH, wrote that the Quraan was falsified, among others, he wrote History, Sharia, and Tawheed and Shirk


3. Muhammad Yacqub Al Kuleiny, died 328 AH. Wrote one of the most trusted and followed books ever written by the Shia Scholars, the Al Kaafi, with three parts, Usuul, Furuuc and Rawdah. In His Rawdah, i the first two volumes 1, 2 alone he claims the falsification of the Quraan in 22 pages


4. Muhammad Ibn Hassan Baabuweyh Al Qumi, died 381 AH. Writer of the ( How To- Book) Titled " Man Laa yaxduruhu Al Faqeeh ( For those who have no access a Faqeeh Scholar)


5. Muhammad Ibn Hassan Al Tusi, died 460 AH. wrote many volumes of different sciences, one of the most respected Shia scholars, wrote about the absence of the Imaam, biographies of Shia men, and his famous book, Tahdeeh al axkaam.


6. Al Haaj Mirza Al Nuri al Tubrusi, died 1320 AH in Najaf, Iraq, the writer of the famous book " fasl Al Khitaab fii ithbaat taxriif kitaab Rabb al arbaab" translation " The critical proof of the falsification of the book of the lords Lord" printed in Iran 1288 AH.


7. Aaayatullah Al Maamaqaani, their expert on biographies, Called Abu Bakar and Omar ( Jibt and Dhaaghut) Idols.


8. Muhammad Baaqir Al Majlisi, died 1211 AH. The Mufti of the Safawi Dynasti of Iran, writer of the multi vloume book of Bihaar ul Anwaar ( Oceans of Light)


9. Nicamatullah Al Jazaa'eri, died 1012 AH writer of the Al Anwaar Al Numaaniyah

11. Abu Mansour Al Tubrusi, died 620 AH Writer of Al Ixtijaaj


12. Abu Abdallah Al Mufeed, died 413 AH, writer of Al Ershaad, Amaali Al Mufeed


13. Muhammad Ibn Hassan Al Aamily, died 1041 AH, Writer of Al Eeqaad minal Hajcah fii Ithbaat Al Rajcah ( proof of the Rajcah principle that all 12 Imaams will come back to rule one after the other and that Abu Bakar and Omar will be taken out of their graves and crucified and many more interesting occurances)


14. Ayatollah Ruuxullah Al Musawi Al Khomeiny, died 1989, His grand father immigrated to Iran from India, in 1885, born in Khomein. wrote many books such as " Kashf al Asraar, in which on page 116 he says that Omar Ibn Al Khattab committed a lot of evil, Kufr and violations against the verses of the Quraan. In his book the Islamic Government, Khomeini said " The teachings of the Imaams are as sacred as the Quraan" again implying the divinity of the Imaams, in the same book Khomein wrote that " Imaams in our faith are more sacred than any prophet that was sent or an angel close to(Allah SWT). When Khomeini died 10 million people took his body through Tehran wailing and crying, his tomb is reportedly enshrined with a 7 billion dollar Gold plated top.



Their Beliefs ( Aqaaed)



Before we explore the Shia beliefs, it is important that we do some investigative reasoning:


Islam as we have discussed was a faith that started as a rebellion on earthly powers, Qureish being the custodian of holy shrine of Mecca, was not prepared for a new ideology that preached a unitarian belief, because as middlemen between man and the Gods ( 360 Gods in Mecca alone), because they had a lucrative business serving the pilgrims in the Pilgrimmage season. When Prophet Muhammad SAWS declared Islam and the worshipping of a single God, the brotherhood of man, freeing of the slaves, and equalityy of man, paying alms, feeding of the poor. Quresih recognized that this new mesage was eroding their power, so they resisited Islam ferociously. Likewise, the new message affected other foreign powers, both religious and Political, The immediaite affected powers were:


1. The Persian Kingdom, defeated by bare footed bedouins.


2. Judaism as a religion, rejected to accept Prophethood of a Gentile from Ishmael's linneage.



It was the commbination of these two factors that must be seen as the backdrop of the development of modern day Shiaism.


The Jews were expecting their own Mahdi Deliverer when Muahammad SAWS and Arab appeared, they insisted on waiting for their Messiah and refused to believe in the Prophecy of Muhammed, although the Quraan was very convincing to the point that many Jews converted to Islam.


Throughtout, the Quraan is addressing the Jews as the favored (Most Number of Messengers sent to any single nation) people of Allah. The longest Suurah Al Baqarah, The Cow, and the Suurah Bani Israel, Children of Isreal, and many in between were dedicated to them to win them over for islam, their true religion and that of their fore fathers, but because they were stubborn and proud, they missed the opportunity to join Islam because al along followers of Judaism felt moral superiority over their cousins, the Arabs.


Politically The Persian Empire ruled over Bedouin Arabia, specially in Yemen, an ancient empire spanning hundreds of years, they never imagined that their empire could be lost to the bedouins they despised as illitrates and ignorant, they also looked Arabs as inferiors.


All in a sudden, the equation is changed, a new faith for the down trodden Arabs and the world at large appeared and the Muslim armies defeated the Super power of the time, The Empire of Persia, Kisraa Yazdajerd, The Emperor's daughter was captured as a war captive to become a wife for Hussein as recorded in History. It is said that Zein Al Abidin's mother was that woman, regardless, of the authenticity of that story, the Persians felt humiliated by Arabs, and reclaiming their past glory was always a driver for having their own distict form of Islam, this was in addition to the fact that the Imams were disendants of that Persian King's daughter had a lot to do for the Safawi Dynasty of Iran three centuries ago to force all Muslims in Iran to adobt Shiaism as the official state religion. It also explains the fact that the Shia movement was always a secret order using the Tuqya principle to hide their true motives, by mixing with the mojority of the people and hiding their true religion until they are able to come out in the open at the opportune time.


The Jews on the other hand, due to their numbers could not mobilize an army to stop this advancing new faith. So their choice was to work against it in a discrete way. So a Jew who came from Yemen, the territory that was ruled by the Persian Empire before its down fall, converts to Islam, and travels widely through Muslim lands preaching the supremacy of Ali, his divinity, the hate of Abubakar, Omar and all the companions to brake their ranks and cause confusion.


Now in that context please read this passage written by a modern Shia writer of history about the worship of their Imams:



When you wish to visit the tomb of Musa ibn Jafar and the tomb of Muhammad ibn Ali ibn Musa, first you must bathe and make yourself clean, then anoint yourself with perfume and put on two clean garments, after which you are to say at the tomb of the Imam Musa : -


Peace be upon thee, O Friend of God!


" You are then free ," said the Imam Ali Naqi, " to ask for your personal needs, after which you should offer a prayer in salutation to the Imam Muhammad Taqi, using these same words ."



Highlights of the Beliefs ( Aqaa'ed) of Shia Ithna Asheriyah.



1. The Imam is the Lord who dwells on earth.


It was reported that Ali RAA said " I am the Rabb ( Lord) who dwells on earth " source; Mir'aatul Anwaar wa mishkaatul Asraar, page 59

The Shia Sheikh Al Ayaashi interpreting the verse " Wa laa yushriku fii xukmihi axadaa" " He does not share his authority (judgement) with anyone" Ayaashi says, it means that no one should share the Caliphate with Ali.



2. Fatima and Ali Reason Of Creation :


A contemporary Shia Scholar in Sheikh Hussein Feheid Al Ahsaa'ey, says " Ali RAA is the face of Allah SWT" he also says Allah said " O Mohammad, if it was not for you, I would not have created the universe, and if it was not for Ali I would not have created you, and if it was not for Fatima, I would not have created both of you"


3. Affairs of Present Life on Earth and the Hereafter are in the hands of the Imaam . Source Al Kuleiny, Section, that Earth belongs to the Imaam, page 407 -410


4. Natural phenomena like Thunder and lightening belongs to the Imaams .


It was reported that Samacah Min Mehran that he said that " I was Abi Abdallah, then the sky thundered,, thenAbi Abdallah said, it is Ali ordering it " Source Bihar ul Anwaar, Majlisi Volume 27 page 33


5. Extraordinary powers of Ali RAA : It was reported that Ali RAA used to Rideclouds. A concept all Shia sects share, Biharul Anwar, Majlisi Volume 27 page 34. Also Ali is reported saying " I am the eye of Allah on earth, I am the Light of Allkah that is never exitinguished, I am the proof of Allah against servants"


6. The Imaam holds the keys to the Unknown ( Al Ghaib) Source Al Kaafi, Kuleiny, Voulme 1 page 258, Section titled " The Imaams know when they die, and they never die without their consent"


7. Imaams know what was and would happen in the future and nothing is hidden from them Al Kaafi, Kuleiny, Volume 1 page 260


8. It was reported (Falsly) that Al Saadiq said " Wallahi we (imams) are given the knowledge of the ancients and the future generations, he was asked " Do you have access to the unknown? the imaam responded " we know what everyman and woman will beget as decendants" Source Bihar ul Anwaar, Majlisi Volume 26 page 27 - 28


9. Allah reveals revelations after the death of prophet Muhammad on the Imaams via angel Gabriel . The Imam Muhammad Al Saffar ( Died 290 AH) says " An angel even greater and more knowledgeable than gabriel comes down with revelations to the Imaams" also see source Asxaabul Imaam Al Macsuum, page 111


10. ALI Talks To Allah : Al Saffar also reported in the Basaa'er Al darajaat Al Kubraa in ten volume proofs of the continuity of revelations on Shia Imaams, Ali Talked to Allah SWT. That he saw Gabriel, Ten stories volume 8, section 16 page 430.


11. Al Saffar also reports : It was reported that Humran ibn Acyun reported from Abu Abdullah Aleyhi Salaam, " I said, O Imaam, I heard that Ali Talked to Allah Aleyhi Salaam " The imaam said " Yes indeed, they talked in Taif Gabriel came down in their middle" Source Basa'r Al Darajaat, Section 8-16, page 430, Printed in Iran


12. Al Saffar alos reports in 13 reports that the Holy spirit ( Ruuxul Qudus) comes down on the imaams, the imaam said " We are increased knowledge at night, because if we did not have revealtions, our knwledge would run out" source Basaa'er ul Darajaat, Section 7, volume, 15. page 252


13. Angel Gabriel, JIBREEL, is with Imaams always : Kuleiny explaing a verse " And thus do we reveal to you a spirit form on authority" Kuleiny said the Imaam said " since Gabriel came down, he never left, he is with us imaams" Source Kuleiny Al Kaafi, Volume 1 page 173


13. Angels come down on earth on the night of power to tell the Imaams about the Qader and all that would happen the following year. Sources Al Kafi , Kuleiny Volume 1 page 261 and Al Fusuul al Muhimmah fii usuul al a'immah, Volume 94 page 145.


14. Divine Light penetrated Ali. Source Al Kafi by Kuleiny Volume 1 page 440


15. The Imams are shown our deeds avery day and night Source Al Kafi, Kuleiny Volume 1 page 219



Most of the above beliefs were developed during the shorter absence of the Mahdi, Muhammad Ibn Hassan Al Askari, who we have mentioned briefly before although many fundemental changes that represent a departure from the original beliefs of Muslims were attributed to him through his handlers who claim that they had an access to this disappearing Imaam for an enduring 65 years. Let us look at the belief of the Shia about this imaam.


As we have seen above, Shiism today represents a big departure from the Shia of Ali during the Caliphate of Ali and the even through the early stages of teh Amawi and Abbasid dynasties, so let us look at the building blocks of Shiism that departed from main stream Islam to become a stand alone religion of its own.



The Imamate:


Th three main Shia sects today


1. Zaydiyyah , who believe that the Imamate dynasty branches out from Zayd Ibn Ali Ibn Hussein Ibn Ali


2. Ismailia who believe that the Imamate branches out from Ismail ibn Jaffar ibn Muhammad Al Saadiq


3. Imaamiyyah Ithnaa Ashariah , whose list is abovementioned, and are the focus of this thread, as the Zaydiyyah are accepted by the Ahlul Sunnah with some non fundemental philosophical differences, and the Ismailia with ultra philosophical differences.




No such explicit WASIYYAH from the prophet SAWS exisit, The strongest mandate for the Imaamah of Ali that the Shia narrate is the Sermon at Ghadeer Khum in shich the Messneger of Allah SAWS is reported to have said " Whoever I was his Mowlaa ( Friend , Protector, Ally) then Ali is His Mowlaa, O Allah he who befriends , supports, shows solidarity with Ali, O Allah become his supporter, friend and Ally"


However Ali RAA EXPLICITLY said the following in the SHIA trusted source Nahjul Balaagha:


" I was elected by the same people who have elected Abu bakar, Omar and Othman whith the same mandate as theirs, so neither does a present person has a right to elect nor an absent person have the right to reject (as the same committee elected me with the same mandate), because the Shuraa consultative election is for the Muhaajirs and the Ansaar, and they have unanimously elected a man and they named him an IMAAM, an action that pelased Allah SWT, so in case a person dissents their choice by a slander, or introduces a Bidcah, (innovation ) bring him back to his sense, if he refuses, fight him for his (crime) of following a different path than that of the believers "


Source: Nahjul Balaagha, Volume 3, page 7.



Ahlul Sunnah wal Jamaacha subscribe to that above principle of Ali, Jamaacah, and No Bidcah, so how did all these innovations find a way in the Shia prionciples?



Muhammad Ibn Hassan Al Askari, the Mahdi of the Shia is said to have disappeared as a Kid at the age of 4 or 5 years. The fact that this boy is made an Imaam in their beliefs is built on another concept that Imaamah is devinely preselected and the boy was born holy as an imaam. One day while the boy was playing out, he disappeared falling in a SIRDAB (underground passages for sewage), he is said to have been absent for 65 years after which he sent a letter saying that " anyone who brings you anymore message from is a liar, I will not come out until Allah sends me back ( as Mahdi)" or something to that effect.


In these years, the Ghaybah al Sughraa , a lot of religion was invented, and that will be my focus in the next episode...



Beliefs of the 3G Shia ( Third Generation Shia )


As I have promised, I will present the most divergent Aqaed of The Shia:


1. Their Departure from the Tawheed Principle

The belief that Ali and the Imams are Super Natural, Holy and Infallible


a. It was reported that in the Shia Biographies source, that Ali RA said " I am the First and I am the last, I am the Apparent and I am the Hidden and I will inherit the earth" source : Rijaalul Kashi, Page 138: This concept contradicts with the verse from Quraan that Allah is the ( First and I am the last, I am the Apparent and I am the Hidden) see Suurah Al Hadeed


b. It was reported that Abi Abdullah Aleyhi Salaam said: That the This life ( Dunyaa) and the next life ( Akhira) belong to the Imaam, he places were he wishes, and he gives to whomever he pleases, it is his right from Allah, Source: Kuleiny Al Kaafi, Usul , page 259

Allah SWT says in Quraan that the above belongs to Allah in more than one place in Quraan.( Wa lillahil aakhrata wal uulaa) ( Lillahi Mulkus Samaawati wal Ard) ect.


c. The Tafseer of the verse in Suurah Zumar " Wa ashraqatil Ardu bi Nuuri Rabbihaa" The earth sunrise was due to the light of its Lord" the famous Shia Scholar Maqbul Axmad explains that it means : " He said that Imaam Jaffar Al Saadiq says that the Lord of teh earth is the Imam, so when the Imam (mahdi) comes out his light will be sufficient , people will no longer need the sun and moon" source Biography of Maqbul Ahmed page 339


d. Kuleiny, the author of al Kaafi, the most reliable Shia source says that " Imaams are knowledgeable all the knowledge accessed by the angels and the Prophets and Messengers Aleyhim Salaam he writes " It was reported that Abi Abdullah Aleyhi Salaam said, that Allah Tabaraka wa tacaalaa has two types of Knowledge; A body of knowledge he exposed to Angels, Messengers and Prophets, which we know of, and a knowledge body he reserved, so if Allah changes his mind ( Bidaa) and wishes to share it with us for s reason, he makes us ( Imams) aware of it the Apparent Knowledge and the hidden Knowledge, and He also teaches this to past Imams before us Aleyhim Salaam"


The above belief of the Shia is in clear confict with Tawheed as Allah SWT says in Quraan (ولا يشرك ÙÙŠ حكمه أحدا)) that he does not share his judgement with anyone, while the Shia Scolars claim that that Allah SWT is actively communicating with the Imams to this date, and that Allah's religion of Islam is undergoing changes as Allah ST is continuously changing his mind and sharing this with dead imams of the Shia, that they are so important as to require that they should be updated of any changes the religion undergoes while they are dead.



Their Departure from the Tawheed Principle


2. The Principle of Bidaa


Which means something that was hidden to be made apparent to the Imamas, Allah SWT says in Quraan, Suurah Zumar describing the fate of those who disobeyed Allah SWT and belived they were guided that " وبدا لهم من الله ما لم يكونوا يحتسبون) that they were in for a surprise as what they saw was not what they expected from Allah SWT.


In Suurah Yusuf, Allah SWT says narrating the story of Josef, says " ((ثم بدا لهم بعد ما رأوا الآيات ليسجننه حتى حين)) meaning, "that the brothers of Josef after seeing the proofs and indications, went ahead with their decesion to imprison Josef for a while)

Bidaa in the above two verses implies two inferences :


a. Prior Ignorance


b. Arrival of new knowledge


Both of those two above qualities are not compatible with Allah' perfection SWT as his Knowledge is eternal, and is not ignorant, Allah SWT says ( وعنده Ù…Ùاتح الغيب لا يعلمها إلا هو ويعلم ما ÙÙŠ البر والبحر وما تسقط من ورقة إلا يعلمها ولا حبة ÙÙŠ ظلمات الأرض ولا رطب ولا يابس إلا ÙÙŠ كتاب مبين) meaning , His are the keys of the knowledge of the unknown, no one has access to it except Him, He( even) knows all that is on earth and the sea and no leaf falls without his knowledge nor a grain in the darkness of earth , neither a wet nor a dry (object exists) without being (meticulously) recorded in a clear record)


Kuleiny reports in his Masterpiece Al Kaafi that Allah SWT (بدا لله ÙÙŠ أبي محمد بعد أبي جعÙر ما لم يعر٠له) meaning that Allah SWT reconsidered ( Badaa) in the case of Abi jaffar due to his lack of Knowledge before: source Kuleiny, Al Kaafi, Usuul, Page 40.

Kuleiny further reports that (ونقل الكليني: عن أبي حمزة الثمالي قال: سمعت أبا جعÙر عليه يقول: يا ثابت إن الله تبارك وتعالى وقت هذا الأمر ÙÙŠ السبعين Ùلما أن قتل الحسين صلوات الله عليه اشتد غضب الله على أهل الأرض Ùأخره إلى أربعين (2) ومائة Ùحدثناكم ) menaing that Allah SWT set a seventy year as the Mahdi's time to appear, but when Hussein was killed, Salawatullahi Aleyh, Allah became angry with the people of the earth, then he deleyed the appearance for another forty years "

From The above we learn that the Shia's belief in Allah SWT is not in line with the qualities of perefection of Allah SWT, the quality of KNOWLEDGEABLE or in Arabic, Alk Aleem. thus the Bidaa concept is a clear opposite to the Tawheed principle of the perfection of Allah SWT.



Their Departure From The Tawheed Principle


3. . The Priciple of Rajcah (الرجعة)


Is the complementary principle to the Bidaa, whic simply explains the follwing verse in the Quraan in Suurah Anbiyaah ( We have recorded in the Zabur, after the mention that the the earth will be inherited by my good servants) The Shia scholars say that these servants are the Imams, who will be reseuurected one by one to rule the earth making justice until the last Imam Muhammad Al Askari , the Mahdi appears, after which the day of judgement will happen.


During this period of Rajcah, the enemies of the Imams , Abu Bakar, and Omar will be taken out from their graves, they will still be flesh as if they've just died, they will be then taken to be crucified for taking Caliphate away from the Imams. Afterwards all the enemies of the imams will be punished as justice and their followers will be vindicated.


This principle contradicts with the principle of the day of judgment, only, Allah SWT in the day of judgement will serve justice to all his creatures, not Imams. Also, no dead person will be revived, Imam or Abu Bakar.


In Conclusion:


1. The Shia (Latent) have departed away from the original teachings of Islam, as we have shown the meanings of ilaah ( God ) which parts of the qualities of Ilaah they ascribe to their Imams


2. They Belief Allah to lack knowlege


3. Their beliefs of Justice is not in line with that of Allah's in Day of Judgement as they believe in a little Qiyaamah before the bih Qiyamah


4. They believe that All the companions of the Prophet became Kuffar except for three



5. They believe that the Imaams are supernatural , infallible , sacred and have access to the unseen


6. They believe the Wilayatul Faqeeh concept which means that the Faqeeh is the interpreter of the absent Imam and his obedience is like the obedience of the absent imaam.


......and more





This is my small attempt to present the case I have promised, There are still many other issues that I have mentioned briefly but do not have the time to present in detail, however, I feel this much to be sufficient to pose for Mutakallim to respond point per point as he promised.








2004 e-Nuri Aqeedah Vigils

If you don't stand up for Allah alone, You will fall for everything else.


** I received a private message from someone who thought I was a Shia. May I clarify that I am a Somali, Sunni, ahlul Sunnah wal Jamaacah. The Title was meant to show that the original Shia ( Phase 1 and 2) were not different in beliefs than their Sunni brethern. The title was meant as solidarity and an attention getter, like John Kennedy's famous " Ich bin ein Berliner ". Sorry for the confusion and my rusty German.

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Brother Nur

I thank you for sharing your knowledge.

May Allah Almighty all show us the Light. Amin


I wish that we could overlook our differences and all become one Ummah just like in the times of our Rasululah (saw) Amin

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That was very interesting information, its been a while since i've visited this website and its good to read a good topic like this on my first day back. i grew up in asia and there are a lot of shiats muslims but u rarely see a somali shia, as long as we muslims i think thats all that matters.

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This looks more structured and inshaAllah I am (like many others) looking forward to benefit a great deal from the discussions to come.


I would like to point out an error you made when you said...


When the revelations came down to Muhammad SAWS, the first person after his wife Khadiija to beleive in him was Abubakar Radiyallahu canhu, his cousin Ali who was a young boy

The first one to accept Islam was offcourse Khadija bint Khuwaylid, but the next person was Ali ibn Abi Talib and the THIRD was Abu Bakr as-Siddiq (may Allah have mercy on their souls). Ali ibn Abi Talib was the first MALE to accept Islam and even in some literature, it is said that Zayd ibn Harithah was the thrid person to accept Islam, Allah SWT knows best.

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Asalamu alaikum


Nur, It's been awhile since I read your posts. It was a great read, looking forward for the next part.



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Please read the contiuation of the topic on same top page , I have just added more interesting materials I compiled.


Quick responses



Hasnah sis,, May Allah enlighten us all with his Quraan so the Quraan can guide us thru thbis life to be our guide in the next life, amin.


Angel Eyes, Jazaakellahu khairan sis, speaking of living in Asia, did you live in Cambodia? some Somali seamen community who intermarried with Campbodians are there as I met two of them in Nairobi.


Haddad, Thanx saaxib, I just potsted the contiuation on the same page please read.



Viking Bro.


Referring to the same incident for the third time again ( lol), when you have asked me who was right Ali or Muwaawiyah, I wrote in two words ( ALI). When I raised the issue again you asked me " Was it that difficult" as if I was choking when I said that. It was not difficult to say the truth saaxib, jit was ust a question that needed a thread to answer, and alhamdulillah, Allah provided me with the time to answre it. I hope it is clear once and for ever


May I say that kids are not accountable in Islamic Jurisprudence, all of us are born with initial default state of islam, later when we reach, no good or bad is accounted for us until we reach puperty ( Baaligh). For that reason, accepting Islam or denying it would not count for a child as a credit or a debit. so in the Seerah we read, the first to accept Islam among women was Khadija, among men was Abu bakar and among kids was Ali. The reason I am emphasizing this is because of the empowerment of the last Imaam who was only 4 four years old befire his disappearance, which is against the Sharia, an Imaam has to be intelligent enough before he can assume a responsibility, unles of course it is a devine decree that came down after the death of the prophet SAWS as the Shia claim.( Revelations continued after the death of the prophet according Shia sources to be posted inshAllah)




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Thank you for informing me on this simple matter of Islamic jurisprudence. But, I have always been taught (and read) that Ali accepted islam before Abu bakr (may Allah have mercy on their souls). However you twist and turn it, one person took the shahada before the other.


If you had jurisprudence in mind, why then did't you put the name of Zayd ibn Haritha, Uthman ibn 'Affan, Zubayr etc. in front of Ali on your list of people who first accepted Islam? Did Ali become baaligh before they accepted Islam?

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Viking bro.


I am not certain who took Shahada first, you seem to be certain, I will have to research it and come back, but from the point of Jurisprudence we agree, Ali was not Mukallaf, so no credit, and in case a child his age rejected, no Sin. What remains is your question. The funny thing is that I expected that you respond to any of my analyses on the topic that you seemed so keen to read, and kept asking me to post, and once I posted , instead of a asking me a question on the subject matter of Aqeedah, you are so fixated on picking a side issue and you have the nerve to accuse me for twisting the topic. Respond to the core issues either agreeing or disagreeing with proofs.



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About your post, there are two things that I do not agree with. The first is the story of ibn Saba being the man behind Shi'ism; I am sorry, I just don't buy that old propaganda that has been accepted as factual by some. The second thing was the part where you said that "the first person after his wife Khadiija to beleive in him was Abubakar Radiyallahu canhu", which I also pointed out. The first people to accept Islam were...


1. Khadija

2. Ali

3. Abu Bakr (some say Zayd, the servant)

5. Uthman


...may Allah be have mercy on their souls.



Since your post says "to be continued", I'll be looking forward to reading the second part and to Mutakalim's contribution. As for the "core issues", they were supposed to be debated by him.

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Surely All Praises BElongs to Allah!


Brother Nur and Viking, according "AR-RAHEEQ AL-MAKTOOM" Memoirs of the Noble Prophet by Saifur Rahman al-Mubarakpuri


under the chapter Ending: "Phases and stages of the call"


The Early Converts are:


(1) Khadijah (RA),

(2) Zaid bin Harithah ,

(3) ‘Ali bin Abi Talib

(4) Abu Bakr As-Siddiq( the truth verifier)

(5) Uthman Ibn 'Affan


Jazakallahu Khair!

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In Seerah Ibn Hishaam, After Khadija, Ibn Isxaaq reports that it was Zeid Ibn Haritha, then Ali then Abu Bakar. Salafi's chronology is according to the Seerah books.




You say that you don't buy the propoganda of Abdullahi Ib Saba'a! Have you verfified this fact before calling it a propoganda? or you are blindly believing some Shia version?


Secondly, I have proven the exisitence and role of Abdullah Ibn Saba from your own Shia Books, then please tell me, do you believe in these Shia Scholars like Al Kashi and others who support my point or you dont buy their story? or are you selective of what you take from your scholars? if that is the case, then when they say that it was an Imaam of the 12 who said that, do you believe it or are they fabricating it from the imaam since your imams are infallible?




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posted by OG_GAL

I am glad my Shia brothers let you bark alone here and there!

OG_gal please do something betta with ur self...ur becoming too predictable...insult after insult.....if u don't hav anything good/productive ta say ..please don't say anything at all....yaaa xabiibul llaaah...




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I am glad my Shia brothers let you bark alone here and there!

I have to agree wholeheartedly with brother SHOOBARO. Sister you are speaking words that are uncalled for and unnecessary.


You are here fighting for unity and that is a blessed thing, but at the same time we must understand that unity is only with those who ascribe to the kalima properly (regardless of what they call themselves). Rasuallah already told us that the Muslims would be divided; therefore we can’t all have a group hug and chant slogans of brotherhood when some are stepping on the tenets of Islam. Let’s face it, there are many people who follow and practice things outside of Islam (including many who claim to be sunnis) and hence we MUST clarify this for them and keep away from this ourselves. All brother Nur is doing is giving us proofs, he is not articulating his own opinions, but rather stating points based on daleel.


To be honest, you on many occasions seem to be articulating your own opinions and making unfounded accusations against various people. If you have a point to make, do so in the respectful manner that brother Nur is doing. If you have noticed, even those who are heralding shiasim such as Viking and Mutakalim hold Nur in high regard- this I’m sure says a great deal about the character of a person. I do believe that this is the difference between one who respects others whilst making a stern point and one who retaliates with abuse such as yourself sorry to say.


On many occasions sister to be honest I have bit my lip (or rather held my fingers) from responding to your tactics concerning Islamic discussions (especially your "I study islamic shariica and hence know it all" point- which you have pointed out in a few discussions), but personally I feel you have gone too far where brother Nur is concerned, not only here but also in other threads. The brother may Allah bless and reward him has served Islam greatly (on the forums), not only that but I’m sure many would agree that he is a respected nomad who we all love for the sake of Allah. It is therefore I ask you to show a little more respect to your fellow nomads, especially as far as respectful people such as Nur are concerned.


Sister please contemplate the following two hadiths, as I will also, for as a Muslim we need to continuously remind ourselves.


The Messenger of Allah (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) said: "Let he who truly believes in Allah and the Last Day speak good or be silent." [saheeh al-Bukharee]


Abdullah Ibn Amr Ibn Amr al-Aas (radhi allahu anhu) narrated that the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) said: "Whoever has the following four characteristics will be a pure hypocrite; and whoever has one of these four characteristics will have one characteristic of hypocrisy unless and until he gives it up; whenever he is entrusted he betrays, whenever he speaks he tells a lie, whenever he makes a covenant he proves treacherous, and whenever he quarrels he behaves in a very imprudent, evil and insulting manner." [saheeh al-Bukharee]


If I have offended you in anyway then i hope you will accept my apologies, it was not my intention- I just feel that someone needed to say this.

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