Here

^^^ How long before the authorities block youtube?

Originally posted by Valenteenah: ^^ It means most don't do it, that's all. I can't say I have ever seen a Somali bloke pushing a pram (and I live and work in massively Somali-populated areas). Tell us if u have. If Baashe were here he would remind you that no manly-man would be seen dead pushing a pram, manly men carry their kids on their arms, you see(and I’ll agree with him).

Originally posted by AYOUB_SHEIKH: ^^ Can't be worse than asking us to speculate. A pointless throwaway comment there, saaxib. Furthermore, it’s about ten posts late (if not seventeen). I suppose, so far, the adage that says :“There are none so blind as they who refuse to see; none so deaf as they who refuse to hear!” applies here. I’m quite satisfied that I’ve presented this topic in the best possible light now I’ll sit back and await replies (if they’re ever forthcoming) from those that might be interested in having a beneficial discussion rather than snipe and grumble. Caamir, Fair reply, saaxib. But it does not deal with what I’m getting at here (read my second and third posts). I wasn’t aiming for a discussion about what is allowed or forbidden in Islam. The lady was merely an example of the problems and choices we (as Muslims) face in the West today. Maybe I overestimated the level of indifference here and should have spelt it out very clearly from the outset. Though I strongly doubt that and seriously believe that most people follow current events (more so those that concern Islam and Muslims) and would easily tie this situation to all the recent breaking stories and debates.

Does she not wear the hijab now and where is it mentioned? As far as I could tell, she wrote an article about the security at the airport not checking her face under the niqaab but nothing else hinted to her not wearing the hijab. Don't you think it would be speculation on our part to attach a reason, if indeed she doesn't wear the hijab anymore, to her abandonment of the "bushel". This is unfair, people, unfair I tell you. All along I was under the impression the problem was one of comprehension but now it turns out that you don’t even read what I write before commenting on it. GRRRR. :mad: Seeker, Did you see the link to The Sun website that I put in my first post? See her photo? In addition, the photo that now regularly accompanies her column is not one of her wearing the hijab (this is what started this whole thread – read dammit). Ayoub, I’m not interested in her personally, though I would be lying if I didn’t admit that I’m curious (but on a personal level, it really is not my business nor my place to go and ask. Besides, it’s a vulgar thing to do).

Zafir, I accept your criticism there and agree that maybe I should have given you (the readers) a few pointers as to how I wished the discussion to proceed. However, I truly did not want to dictate this discussion and really wanted it to be as open as possible. The only way I could have done that (in my opinion) was to present you with the story, add a few questions and attach a final disclaimer requesting that the discussion does not completely revolve around this particular lady alone (I hoped that this hint would be more than enough to encourage participators to widen the net a little). Unfortunately, this was not enough and it looks like I’ll have to try to expand the topic’s horizons whilst also attempting to keep it as open as possible. First though, as is usual with most of my posts, permit me to start lecturing a little. When I read this story, I was assaulted by a plethora of ideas, thoughts and impressions. My initial reaction, as is always the case, was one of horror, confusion and despair! Still, these soon passed and I soon moved on to the relationship between this story and the veil debate we currently have in the UK (and Holland). I’m a Muslim. An individual Muslim. I have my own interpretations, understanding and view of Islam that is (possibly) different to those that others have. I’m also part of a group (of Muslims) and their actions, choices and viewpoints have an impact on my individual life. Therefore, whenever I see anything connected with Muslims or Islam I’m naturally concerned, interested and attracted both in my individual and collective capacities. My positions, interests and worries become even more intense because I live in a place where I and We are a minority. Here you see, the public actions of other Muslims would have more of an impact on me (and us) than, say, if I were living in Saudi Arabia or Kuwait! I fully realise that I have no say, control or influence over what other people do. However, this does not stop me from observing and debating their actions in relation to myself (and us) and the consequences of those actions on my (our) Muslim identity. When Bin Laden and his ilk engage in murder, extremism and start wars (without consulting the rest of us) in the name of Islam, their actions have an impact on me (and us). In their case, I find myself hemmed in and left with two realistic choices; to agree with their actions, methods and wars or to disagree. These actions of theirs force me (and any sane Muslim) to re-examine my positions and align myself to what I believe to be the true face of Islam. In my case, that would be to oppose these people; in someone else’s case it might be to support them! In both situations, we do so because our choice defines our identities as Muslims and the viewpoints we have. Had Bin Laden been an angry Arab sitting in a Jeddah or Cairo coffee shop and angrily complaining about the state of the Muslim world today or expressing his wish to destroy the infidels I would not have paid him any attention or seriously worried about the rants of a nobody. However, the minute he chose to put his face, rants, threats and actions in the public sphere I had no choice but to take notice and contemplate the consequences and effects of his chosen views. Do I identify with such views? Could I associate with them? Likewise with the journalist above, and seeing that she too is in the public arena (she goes on about her Muslim identity), noting her choices and the opinions she holds, I was again confronted with the same ideas and worries. Do I identify with her views? Could I associate with them? How could they impact on me (and us)? I believe I know my stance on all of this and can (as a Muslim individual) happily go on with life having reached my own conclusions and made my own decisions on this issue and others. However, it’s not really all about me and my choices alone. I am part of a community, collective and group that is Muslim. Each and everyone in that group (including the journalist) have their own opinions, positions and viewpoints. Knowing that these opinions will have an impact on my life (regardless of whether I choose to examine them or not) I’m obliged to seek these opinions and find out what the Community, collective and group think (even though I understand that not every single one will present me with coherent challenges to my already reached viewpoint). To prompt, to coax or to present loaded questions in order to illicit some opinions from the community would restrict the variety and quality of the replies I would receive. The topic has to be left as open as is humanly possible and the readers have to be free to present me (us) with as many options, viewpoints and angles as possible. That’s the only way I (we) can benefit from the wisdom of the group. Of course, this might be nothing but air as some Nomad already said. But I suspect that like the person in that Chinese proverb, she was still fascinated by the finger instead of the moon it was pointing at.

^^ Too hasty again

Ah! Now I know why you call yourself lazy! You’re showing your intellectual limitations there, dear. This was an open topic (in fact, as open as it could get). Some of the topics you could have tackled as a result of reading this would have included: Hijab and careers Token Muslim female journalists Propaganda against the Hijab (I’m sure you can’t have failed to notice all the recent controversy about the Hijab/veil on SOL and outside) The choice of women to keep or discard the Hijab The pressures Muslims women face at work Reasons why someone would wear the Hijab Reasons why someone would discard the Hijab The marketability of someone wearing a Hijab Islamic attitudes to female journalists Western attitudes to Muslim female journalists Integrity, principles and professional honesty Contemporary Islamic role models The list is really endless. All it requires is a bit of imagination, which sadly, you refuse to exhibit. Choosing instead to remain within the comfort zone of your angry-teenager character! Don’t be a one-trick-pony Lazy, dear. Don’t look at things at their face value. Delve deeper, examine different angles and raise yourself above the laymen/women with your ability to critically look at a piece (no matter how simplistic it is) and revealing worthy parts in it that not even its author knew existed. Val, You disappoint me, woman. You really do. You’ve regurgitated what I wrote and then asked if there was a discussoin to be had! Don’t be hasty, slow down and take your time to think the topic through. You’ve read it, right? Now change gear and lets try to comprehend then analyse. This following question is not directed at you personally, but have any of the Nomads here done any Case Studies at school/college/universtiy? It’s a long time since I had to do any of that and it’s possible that Universities have abandoned that method now (would be a real shame). But in a Case Study scinario, as I remember, you are presented with a topic/case/issue and are shown changes that took place, etc. Your mission is to critically analyse the Case and present your understanding and conclusions in the form of reasons, climate or forces that occassioned that change. Consider this a case study (you don’t have to reply to it if it’s too much work but if you choose to reply lets us please raise the bar slightly higher than the level of the Primiry School’s Debating Society). ** Loosens his tie **

This lady works for the Sun newspaper. When she started working there they had a photo of her wearing the Hijab on the top right hand corner of her column. It was strange to see a Hijab-wearing woman writing for a newspaper (tabloid) that is famous for having photos of topless girls on Page Three! Still, one assumes she thought Muslim women needed to take the beast by the horns and confront it head on. This, supposedly, was her contribution to Islamic progression/integration in the West. I don’t often read that paper but whenever I happened to get hold of a copy (abandoned on a bus, train or staff canteen) I always wondered at Ms Baig’s motivation for working for such a newspaper. Today, I came across another abandoned copy of The Sun in a coffee shop that I went to during my lunch hour. After a quick glance at the beauty on page three (as you do) I quickly started turning the pages and browsing the usual nonsense found in that paper. I saw Ms Baig’s column and lazily started reading it (it was instantly forgettable). As I was scanning the article I noticed that the photo of Ms Baig was not one with her wearing the Hijab! Seeing that I’m not really a regular reader of The Sun, I quickly concluded that this photo was not hers and that this was probably a new writer that took over this column (as happens with newspapers every now and then). But the whole thing still irked me. When I got back to the office, and just before I had to start working again and save the world, I decided to Google-image Ms Baig’s name. The search returned photos of her wearing the Hijab. So it was her after all! I had no choice but to Google her name again and unravel this great mystery (quite at the back, man). I found the following article on The Sun’s website: She has lovely eyes It seems that Ms Baig threw her hijab in disgust at the lax security arrngments in British airports. Atta girl, man, atta girl. Here is a bit about the lady herself: Anila is a feature writer in the tabloid ‘The Sun’ and was formerly a columnist with the Yorkshire Post, which she joined in 1998. In 2004 she won the Press Gazette’s Regional Newspaper Columnist of the Year 2004 - the citation noted “At last, relaxed, humorous writing about issues so often dominated by political correctness. Anila’s columns have an easy, light touch. She never takes herself or her subject matter too seriously, and thus gets her message across”. At the Yorkshire Post she covered a variety of topics, from TV reviews to local news and community issues. In a recent article she observed, “every Muslim woman is my sister, every Muslim man is my brother and no, I am not secretly dating a member of Hamas. Things I didn't care about before now irk me like the men who shake my hand though I am clearly a woman. But the man at security is still baffled. ‘But why do you lot have to keep your hair covered?’ he asks. I think for a second, flash him a smile and say: ‘Because we're worth it’." On joining The Sun she declared, “Don't be put off by the picture of me. I'm just a gal who likes to hide her highlights under a bushel - or a headscarf". After the youth disturbances in her hometown Bradford in June 2001, she wrote, “I woke up to discover my beloved Bradford had been burning. Images of police in riot gear and Asian boys, faces in purdah and hurling missiles, were flashed across the world. Burned out cars are strewn across the road like broken promises. Nothing has worked. Even the traffic lights have given up. Community leaders speak of unspeakable disgust. After going round in circles we have wound up back at square one. But this was not Islam. Muslims would have packed the mosques at the obligatory prayer times, not mixed Molotov cocktails and stared at police. And their heads would have been covered, not their faces. Shame, anger, disgust. We condemn the actions of the mindless thugs who have brought this nightmare back to Bradford. Yes, Asian boy, the world is racist. Yes, the National Front was stirring. But you and you alone, have made things a thousand times worse”. Source Do you think she abandoned her hijab out of pressure? Choice? Or is she just confused? Is ditching her Hijab also a principled stance just like when one puts on a veil or wears a hijab? What think you? Ps Though she is the subject of the discussion, I do hope we don’t all end up just talking about her and what a strong/weak woman she is. Spread the discussion about a bit please.

Is it the position that makes a man seem impressively presidential or is it the man that fully fills that job?

^^^ Love the way you did your research there and looked at what's important, ayaayo. Arab women are tough little cookies. They give birth in the morning and are already cooking lunch by the afternoon. To them 40 days is far more than enough. Still, you know about their holidays, don’t you? They seem to have something like eleven months holidays per year! ps The whole labour regulations and laws in that country really, utterly and totally stink. I hear that there is light at the end of the tunnel though.

^^Suspended one moment and severe delays the next. I managed to finally stagger to work at 9.45!

Originally posted by LayZieGirl: ^^^Unlike you, I have taken the time to approach these girls I speak off and asked why they behave the way they do. I have asked them why they wear the Hijab when the rest of their wardrobe isn't that appropriate(even I wouldn't be dead caught wearing what they have a nerve to wear), and the reply is always the same, hooyo doesn't want me going outside with my hair like that. Hooyo hooyo hooyo...and hooyo. I have asked not but one female, and it always goes back to someone telling them what to do. Sweetie, not so "dubious assumption" after all, huh? I'm not taking anything away from the few God fearing females out there who wear their Hijab with dignity. I'm just wondering how many of us out there fear allah. Personally, I fear no human being, never did, never will. ...and sweetie, next time, don't come at me with "coulda, woulda, or ifs", but I understand that its not u, its the air in you talking most of the time. Muaaaaaaaaah For someone that claims to be Lazy you’re pretty meddlesome, aren’t you dear? Still, I’m satisfied now you’ve clarified your dubious assumptions. Carry on..

The Mrs is planning to take my little ones there; purely for the kids’ activities I’m told. I’m not that fond of crowded places (not after having to take the Central Line each morning), so I’m very likely to give it a miss. Unless of course, like with the Central Line, I’m forced to go there!

Quite mild and restrained when compared to some of the bile and twaddle we read here about Ethiopia.

^^^ Could it not be just a bad hair day, my dear? Could it not be that, for some, this is the version of the hijab they know? Could it not be that they, follow what the popular trend is with no pressure from parents? I could go on and on with a dozen other reasons for this choice and not many would have anything to do with your dubious assumption above.

It is often said that Somalia’s main problem is the zealot following of the clans! However, I’m yet to come across a Somali that will confess to that fact. We all seem to be accusing others of having clannish agendas, but, oh, not us. We are whiter than white and straighter than an arrow! There is no problem with supporting one’s own clans. After all, when push comes to shove, they’re the ones that will save your (my) backside. Therefore, I suggest you all stop the nonsense and come out with your support for your people. This attitude of yours is beyond duplicitous and shameful really. Do not be the ones that let their people down. Stand up and be counted. Caaqil argues above that some people are so sick with the clan fever that they will choose their brothers over their cousins! What is wrong with that, I ask! Wouldn’t you TRUST your brother more than your cousin? Wouldn’t you TRUST your cousin more than some stranger? It’s all a matter of TRUST after all. And it would be utterly foolish after sixteen years of mistrust for someone to suddenly turn around and start TRUSTING strangers. With brothers and cousins one at least has some guarantees that they’re not going to double-cross him or betray him, what do the strangers offer? It is natural to fear the UNKOWN and seek friends and relatives to cover your back from any potential danger, should people go against their natural instincts just because it became fashionable to abhor tribes? Still, Caaqil, having seen the way people switch from one side to the other as soon as a new change takes place in Somali politics, wouldn’t you think (at least) that these people are like the drowning man attempting to clutch at any floating straw in order to save himself (instead of assuming that they all have some evil intentions)? After all, everyone looks for what’s best and safer for them. In the case of Somalis, and from long experience, it’s one’s immediate clan that is best and safest. It stands to reason then that most people will align themselves with their clan’s policies and plans. On a side note, and I’ve said this several times already, this business of accusing others of ‘opposing Islam’ is an extremely obtuse and dictatorial way of winning the argument. If you support the Courts come out and SELL them to the readers. Don’t sell Islam, for everyone here (one assumes) is Muslim. Sell the Courts’ version of Islam. Bring people to your side with good words, pointing out the good deeds and winning their TRUST. To always start threads in this aggressive style and argue the Courts’ case with all this tough talk and bravado only increases people’s worries and makes them stick closer to their clans. Now, let us get to the Freedom of Speech issue and talk to the brother that ‘runs a large Islamic forum’! The difference between YOUR forum and this one is in the topics you both decided to deal with. This one is an open forum that deals with all manner of discussions. In this particular section, we talk about politics. The fact that the Courts are now part of Somali politics make them open to criticism and analysis. Sadly, the nature of Somali politics with it’s emphasis on hearsay and rumours means that, sometimes, some people will be accused of things they have not done or committed (being culama or not does not matter - the saying was about eating the flesh of your brother, not just your caalim). It’s either that or we don’t discuss politics at all! And that, as I’m sure you realise, is almost impossible. What you need to encourage (instead of making vague statements) is the verifications of any news before it gets posted on sites. When I say encourage I speak about other Nomads and not those that run the site. At any rate, to discuss all manners of political ideas no matter how ugly, abhorrent or wrong they are is a sign of a healthy forum and FAIR discussion. It’s why you and I come here and don’t go to other sites. If there are ideas, positions and claims that you don’t agree with, the chance is there for you to tackle them and express (what you believe to be) the correct position to have. To silence opposing voices only encourages duplicity and dishonesty. Ps A final point on General Duke’s cleverly disguised positions and Oodeweyne’s eloquently expressed prejudices! One truthfully wishes that everyone in this forum would follow the footsteps of these two gentlemen. This is a discussion forum after all and WORDS are all that matters. Use them correctly and eloquently and people will clearly understand what positions you hold, use them in a lazy and shabby way and you’ll only come across as a total simpleton! In addition, you can only fully refute, tackle and challenge someone’s arguments when you really understand what is it they’re talking about and what opinions they’re bringing forward. I’d wager that not one single person on this site (other than those with comprehension problems) does not understand these two gentlemen’s positions. At times, I even find myself (reluctantly) agreeing with them. That’s the power of rhetoric and words for you!

Before accusing him of stealing people's money, do you have a record (or even an idea) of how much he gets paid per year? He's probably stealing money. He probably eats children. He's probably the best president in the world. But unless we have solid proof it all really remains a case of waxa-la-yedhi! Don't fall into that foolish habit, saaxib.

Doubt if it will be an enforceable ban. They’ll just bring it in by road (or sea). For some reason, I doubt if the Courts have an advanced border control system. Of course, it’s a hasty decision and will probably have bad consequences for the Courts. Cold Turkey was never the best method to wean people off drugs.

Originally posted by J B: A Child nursery career, a Day-care center cheif to be exact is the advice i( sister JB ) can give to sister Hiba, thus agree with sister NGONGE. What exactly is wrong with being a housewife, JB? Look at this one minding her own business and washing dishes. (On second thoughts, maybe the photo was very suggestive).

^^^ To shell all that money for something that is not fully legal is utter and pure madness. My Villa when it’s built will be built in a place that is recognised and has a functioning government (Somaliland and Puntland have the latter and the rest of Somalia has the former). ps Save your money for now, Val. Buy yourself a three-bedroom house in Pataya (Thailand) for £21,000 (with Sea views and everything).

^^^ Was not really being harsh to him. I sort of guessed that his question was a rhetorical one. Just felt like a rant, saaxib, just felt like a rant.

Originally posted by HornAfrique: Do not tell me the "police" had the audacity to harm this woman this much? :mad: Poor woman. Though I’m more surprised at your shock there, Horn. Is it affected and done in the spirit of saying/doing the right thing? Surely you didn’t really fall for the Somaliland idea of being a total democracy that affords rights and freedoms to all its citizens! It’s the police, my friend (and African police at that), if you go out demonstrating you have to expect the worse. I can’t for the life of me imagine a police chief sending out his riot police and asking them to be gentle with the demonstrators (and I can’t imagine that anywhere in the world, never mind Somalia). Bad publicity makes no difference to those in charge and hardly ever harms them. On the issue of the cement factor, I’ve got to admit that I’m glad it was dismantled. May all Somali cement factories be shut down and dismantled. Maybe then all those old Somali ladies living in the West will stop starving themselves in order to save the money to build an empty little villa in a place that they’ll hardly visit (or live in at all events). That little scam has been going on for far too long.

^^^^ Those that chew do it all the time, saaxib. Don't go acting like you've never met any.

^^^ If the rapist films his crime and sends the Bluetooth images to all his friends (or worse, he puts it on YouTube). Come on, JB, this is most unlike you, saaxib. Pakistan is a very weird place with a hazy picture of Islamic rules. They’ve had this rape law since 1979 and the mullahs there are adamant that any change, improvement or clarification of this law is the equivalent of rejecting god’s laws! These mullahs are strict, firm and unyielding. They don’t compromise when it comes to their Islamic principles, erm, well, err only if their Prime Minster happens to be a woman of course. Weird bunch, real weird bunch.