^^^^ It was in North London, saaxib. A few shops, launderettes and restaurants are still on the lookout for me for some outstanding debts. An elderly relative of mine went though. Well, when I say relative, I mean close relative. Ok, when I say close relative, I mean my mother. My father himself would have gone but he had a little accident with a painting ladder. He’s fine of course; just a bit of a bruised ego I’m told. I’m not sure if any of my siblings went, I hardly keep in touch with any of these wretched competitors for my parent’s affections. I hear that, maybe, a cousin or two were there though. Talking of fatherhood. I didn’t go on Friday because I was bullied into babysitting (again). But I had an enjoyable and quite revealing evening lost in a deep conversation with my six year old daughter. Apparently, when she grows up, she wants to be a wise man! Maybe I should start from the begging and tell you the whole story in boring detail. Ready? Well, there we were, sat in our living room and spending the last half hour before she had to go to bed doing some simple writing exercises (which she forced me to take part in). In the middle of all the painting and arguing over the right choice of colours, she suddenly stops and says: Her: Aabo, have you ever been to Bethlehem? Me: What? Her (with a mocking smile and a high pitched question): You Never heard of Bethlehem? Me (irritably and defensively): Of course I did. Her: Where is it then? Me: it’s in the East Her: (with a sympathetic giggle): No it’s not. The three kings are from the East. Me: What three kings? Her (tittering openly now): you never heard of the three kings? The three wise men, aabo? Me (finally working it out): Of course I did. This is about Jesus, is it not? Her: No. It’s about the school play. Me: I know that. I meant the school play is about Jesus. Her: and Mary and Joseph and the Shepherds! Me: Do you like that story? Her: Yes. Can you sing Away In A Manger, aabo? I know all the words. Me: I do too but I don’t like to sing it. Her: Because you’re Muslim? Me: Yes. Who told you that? Her: My teacher Me: so you’re not going to be in the play? Her: Yes I will. I’m going to be a Shepherd. My friend Rebecca is going to be a wise man but she’s so silly. She keeps laughing all the time. Me: Do Shepherds talk? Her: No. Aabo, why can’t we have a Christmas tree? Me: Because we don’t celebrate Christmas Her: Can’t we have one for Eid? Me: No. Trees are just for Christmas Her: Can we have a cake on Eid? Me: Ok. What sort of cake do you want? Her (frowns for a bit an says): Errm, one with a Christmas tree on it. Me (pretending anger): WE ARE NOT HAVING A CHRISTMAS TREE! Her: I was only pretending. I know we are Muslim. You know Karimah, the Quran teacher’s daughter; she said that if we have a Christmas tree in our house we would go to hell! Me: What’ that then? Her: Don’t you know hell? Me: I know it, but do YOU know it? Her: Yeah. Allah puts all the bad people there. Me: Who told you this? Her: Karimah did. Me: For a six year old you are very clever Her (suddenly looking all excited and interested): like a wise man? Me: yeah, like a wise man. Her: Are you going to ask my teacher to make me a Wiseman? Me (noticing that the news has started): Yeah. As soon as the news is finished. Her: Don’t make fun of me Me (absentmindedly): I’m not Her: goodnight aabe, I’m going to bed. Me: yeah ok.

** Checks thread and scuttles away in shame **

^^ Not sure what knowing that I’ll post on this thread means. I almost didn’t as it goes. Mr Goth, like Rageh above, is not aiming at a Somali audience. Ok, maybe a few Somalis read the Khaleej Times but the paper is mostly read by non-Somalis and that’s the audience that Goth is trying to enlighten with his articles. You and I are not too impressed with his mention of Cinemas, chaperoned women and the (allegedly) hard methods the Courts use. Even if we happen to agree that they’re all true we still need it presented to us in stronger terms with Waxa-la-yedhi sort of evidence and not in two simple lines. However, the readership of the Khaleej Times are not likely to be as fussy as you and I. To them, this is an alien story being told by one from those parts. Perfect opportunity for further his own agenda there, though of course, it’s also futile. Ps Did you see how managed to squeeze Somaliland into the story.

Rageh is again talking to a western audience. To quote him is to state the obvious here. His article is only good if you have not been paying attention to the events taking place in Somalia in the past six months. Northerner, Lately, I’ve started to enjoy reading the articles of Bashir Goth. Like most other journalists, he seems to have his very own (not that well disguised) agenda, one that involves fighting for the Somaliland case from an Awdal point of view. His dislike of mullahs is also not much of a secret. However, in this case, he’s talking about something that (these days at least) plays a huge part in Somali daily life. Is it true that the ban of khat will have such an impact on the people of the capital or is it just wishful thinking? Why?

The venom is within the threads, Nur, not your posts. Though you already know my opinion on the subject.

Originally posted by sheherazade: ^ta. Still in denial, Ngonge? Until I lose all my teeth and I’m unable to walk. I actually tried to convince them to call me by first name but their representative (my eldest) giggled and said ‘don’t be silly, aabo’.

^^^ I'm sure that link made great sense to you, saaxib. I'm ashmed to say that it didn't make any sense to me though. Take two, take two (and I'm not talking about wives here).

^^^ How about a Sunni woman that practised 'Misyaar' marraige? Seeker, I'm not scholar but I'm sure most scholars and sane people would agree with me when I say: if in doubt, stay away. ps Nur spoke about this topic several times in the past. I think it’s an ugly, divisive and pointless discussion to have in such a forum as this. But if you’re really interested, try to check out the two (maybe three) threads Nur started on this topic. Very informative ones (if you can tear yourself away from the venom within the threads).

^^ How come I didn't see this thread before today? I'm practically here everyday and it’s strange that it’s only now I saw this thread. Maybe it’s the word fatherhood that did it!

^^^ Correction. You’ll only be sent to prison if you uttered such words in Austria not the West at large. This conference is nothing but a silly Iranian gimmick to hit back those prophet cartoons. It’s vulgar, silly and totally pointless.

It does add a spring to your step, doesn’t it? My advice, should you feel like accepting it is to leave him right where he is, in a normal school with normal children. Life is not about education alone, it’s also about interaction and being able to fit in with normal people. You can still expand his mind and sharpen his wits by either arranging extra tuition (would probably work out cheaper than private school) or, which is something that is certainly lacking in the West, directing his attention to Eastern wisdom (buy him simple books, get him an Islamic encyclopaedia, etc). Whatever you do though, and I insist on repeating this point, do not at all stile his ambition by making him believe the tired old story about going back to build Somalia. You bring him up right with Somali values and when the time comes he’ll probably make that decision on his own. Make his goal in life all about going home and you risk him settling for less. Enjoy the moment. He’ll probably break a plate or lose the remote control next and spoil it all for you.

Of course there is such a thing as Somali culture and it does not matter what were its influences. Where a garment or piece of furniture came from is not important, what is important is how the new users (Somalis) have adapted it. Besides, culture is really not limited to items of clothing and furniture. The real problem with Somali culture is its current weakness. Strong cultures spread and transcend their original habitats. Nobody in the world, for example, has not been influenced by American culture. Many parts of the world have also been influenced by British culture. Large parts of Earth know about the Indian culture and have borrowed from it. A strong culture is one that can apply and be used by almost everyone. There was a time when Somalia had a culture strong enough to influence and be adopted by its neighbours (if not the world at large). Today though, not even Somalis are influenced by it. So, to answer your question of whether we have culture or not, my answer would be Yes we do but it’s totally an irrelevant one. Our current poets are weak (or else we would have seen MMA driving us crazy with the poems of the latest star). Our artists are non-existent, in the world of painting and pictures I could only think of that caricature making guy, Amiin something or other. And he himself is a remnant of the old days! In the world of music, most of the known artists have been around for the past 25 years (at least). Writers, thinkers and even comedians are also very rare. This is why many of us accuse each other of abandoning our culture. It’s not strong enough to withstand the onslaught of other cultures. Give me a replacement for Tupac and I shall follow you. Show me a Somali Dickens and I’ll be with you. Unearth a Somali Ronaldinho and I’ll be your fellow in national culture. Spoil us with our own Richard Dawkins and I’m your friend. Sadly, because we are preoccupied with other sorts of nonsense we seem to have neglected our culture. Still, one never ceases to be met by proud Somalis trying to drum it into our brains that we have a great culture and that we should all be pleased with it! Culture is like a tree, when it’s being watered it becomes green and healthy. It sprouts many leafs and one can be proud and happy with it but when it’s not being nurtured it withers and dies and nothing remains of it except the trunk (which is what we have today). The originator of the thread quoted someone talking about Islam and the adoption of that as our culture. I think that, now, has gone beyond a mere suggestion and is a fact. Observe any number of Somali men and women and in at least four out of ten you’ll see the familiar ‘Islamic’ dress and habits. Visit any cities in Somalia and wonder at the similarities in dress and behaviour between them and your average Saudi mullah! I hear the capital nowadays has many Islamic school and the ‘madrasas’ are not the same as our old Somali ones but are more similar to those you find in Pakistan and Afghanistan (I stand to be corrected of course). The schools teach Arabic and the curriculum (I’d wager) is closer to Arabic than African. Now, before you start shaking your head at the screen, let me tell you that this is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, it’s a good thing. For the entire Somali nation to understand and speak the Arabic, Urdu or English language is akin to Ali Baba knowing the words that will allow him to go into the 40 thieves’ cave. In two simple words (Open Sesame) he managed to find immeasurable treasures, yet that didn’t mean he wasn’t still Ali Baba! Likewise, Somalia being exposed to Arab culture does not mean Somalia will be nullified but rather improved and enhanced. Because the main part of culture is language, it binds the people together and helps them have a separate identity from others. Unfortunately, the Somali language (because of war, laziness and many other reasons) has not been allowed to evolve and develop. Worse still, what makes people regard it as primitive is the fact that it’s not widely written. The written word, broadcast media and visual arts all play their part in improving language and, to a bigger extent, culture. Somali’s weakness is in the shortage of all of these. And that, putting aside any bravado and pride, is the reason Somali culture is now weak and somewhat primitive. I’m all for the Arabisation of Somalia, not because I speak that language but because I believe it will enrich and strengthen Somali culture in the longer term. Because, lets face it, Somalis are not going to get rid of all their habits and norms however, if they were exposed to other cultures they will inevitably take the most appealing parts (be them good or bad) and incorporate them into the already existing culture. And that, by anybody’s measurements cannot be but a good thing.

Nur A disclaimer in that post of mine would not have flushed you out, saaxib. I have to admit though, I was on the hunt for small fry that would get indignant with my words and attempt to challenge them. Maybe then, with dribs and drabs of discussion we would have reached an area where a real full fat dialogue will commence. Nonetheless, I seem to have hit the jackpot and got there in one swoop. To start with, let me completely and totally declare my full agreement with all you wrote in your above reply. It was brilliantly presented and thoroughly covered the entire subject, and then some. However, (no need to panic, it’s a harmless clause) I fear that your words are not in keeping with the tempo of this thread. Had you joined us in two pages time it would probably have been spot on and very timely. Still, nothing is lost. Your reply is more than adequate and truly answers the questions asked. The only problem is that the answer is not explicit enough. A skim reader (as we have on this site) is not likely to get your point or understand the purpose behind the words. In fact, I’d go as far as saying that some would wonder and ask themselves the apparently obvious question “ what has all of that got to do with the punishment for those that don’t pray?”. It would be much better (IMHO) if you put the dots on the letters (as the Arabs like to say) and clarify in simple terms the meanings of your words. I’m only asking because now the topic has become yours and it would be presumptuous for me to tarnish your words by attempting to explain them or rewrite them in layman’s terms. What I will do however is tackle a different issue that you missed out on in your explanation. This, I feel, is also important to the discussion and should never be ignored. I’m talking about the difference between punishment and advice. In our topic, the talk is about the penalty of he who does not pray! Though the idea of punishment itself is in dispute, I’ll choose to sidestep that argument for a minute and focus on the advice part instead. Where I see a fault in most of these discussions is in the fact that their originators always focus on the harsh part. The emphasis is always on punishment (hence, my mocking words about stoning, beheading and cutting of hands). Even in the case of Zina that you hinted at in your first post, most people would dedicate the bulk of their words to the punishment of stoning rather than focus on giving advice about the pitfalls of Zina! I feel that it’s pointless, on a social level of course, to waste our time talking about punishments when the advice would be more beneficial. For the punishment does not come if there were no crimes and if there was a crime, due process has to take place. In addition, the whole issue of punishment is usually applied on individual bases. In short, one person at a time is tried for their crime and found guilty or not. A society as a whole can not be punished (I’m talking actual punishment here and not a metaphorical one). Therefore, when talking about such topics, in public, the speakers’ emphasis should always be on the guidance part rather than the blood and thunder of chastisement. Sadly, in all our discussions this hardly seems to be the case. Zero tolerance is what always seems to apply here. Even should it prove true that the punishment for abandoning prayers was to be beheaded, I think it is still important to still dedicate the lion share’s of one’s replies to advice and guidance part. To always declare that those abandoning prayers are Kaffirs would only make them abandon it even more. Their thinking process being: If I’m already regarded a Kaffir, what is the point of repenting and going back? The whole idea brings to mind the aayah (though I’m always very reluctant to quote ayaat in general) that says: walo konta fadda galeeth al qalb la en faddo men xawlik (And had you been severe and harsh-hearted, they would have broken away from about you). (Al-Imran, 159). Having said, I’m probably, sometimes, guilty of that crime myself.

Nur, I’m surprised you didn’t address the topic at hand and instead tried to read what was not there in my words. You are right though, I was indeed mocking and ridiculing and, brashly, I shall continue to do so. Stop shaking your head though. I’m sure you have read me declaring myself a Muslim on countless occasions in this site. It’s tedious to always go back and remind you of this fact. However, since you allow your hothead to rule your senses, I limply have to state that fact once more. I am a Muslim ya sheikh Nur. When I mock, I always mock attitudes, stances and behaviours. I don’t mock divine laws. Here, and after reading some of the responses on this topic I could not help but give such a retort. There is certainty in the replies you see. Those that support it believe 100% that they are correct! Those that don’t also seem to believe 100% that they are spot on. I’ve looked into this topic in the past and discovered that even amongst the scholars there has been varying differences of opinion. Because of that fact alone I didn’t want to preach on the correctness or otherwise of the topic itself. Nonetheless, my mischievous streak wouldn’t allow me to walk past without having a dig at the ignorance I observed. A different Nomad than I would have been offended by your implied accusations but, again, my mischievous nature got the better of me and made me chuckle at your quick tempered reply rather than get angry or offended. Still, the fact that you replied and the message it gives (you’re sure to correct me if I’m wrong) obliges me to finally address the topic and, possibly, put your mind at rest. From your reply, I get the impression that you’re in total agreement with the central point of this topic. In other words, you believe that he who does not pray IS an apostate and deserves to be killed. I only make this assumption because I reasoned that if you were not in agreement with this idea you would have tackled it in your post first before attempting to challenge my words, which were, at best, questionable. Now, it’s my turn to say what I think of this punishment and declaration of Kufur. I’m not sure if you remember, but in a previous topic of yours, I once spoke about doubt and how it’s important that we have doubt in everything (other than Allah swt). Solid positions, immovable stances and certain beliefs are not things I subscribe to. Of course, things that are clear cut are not the ones I speak of here. What I question are those things that are open to interpretations. Our subject here is a case in point. The scholars have differed on it and though one is free to choose to side with any of their opinions one can’t possibly argue that it is the truth! Therefore, I was (and still) am reluctant to 100% declare that this opinion or that is the truth, the full truth and nothing but the truth. Anything else, in my opinion at least, is nothing but ignorance. Still, because I already declared my doubts on the subject, it automatically means that I am receptive to new arguments and convincing opinions and could be persuaded to move from one camp to the other. Of course, it will have to be a very good argument that will make me do so. Nonetheless, this receptiveness also makes me aware that one group might be correct! Now, if they’re correct, why am I not convinced? I would carry on and answer the question myself but because of my mischievous nature (again) and desire to be tickled with the replies I’ll receive I’m compelled to leave this question for you (and anyone else reading this) to answer. PS Though there is a little doubt here too, I’m inclined to believe that you’re shrewd enough to read between the lines and (finally) get my drift.

Beheading is such a dull way to punish someone. Stoning is much more exciting and allows for more crowd participation. Only the ‘hands on’ approach will help remind the crowd of what they stand to lose if they don’t pray. Unless of course they already had their hands cut off.

^^^ What a bunch of idiotic know-nothings! Do these simpletons never tire of war and sabre rattling? I do hope that this is nothing but political manoeuvrings and that these incompetents do not go ahead with fighting the other long bearded incompetents in the capital. This whole thing is quite disheartening and makes me wonder if there are any wise heads in Somalia at all.

Ready to do what? Defend or attack? How long before the Courts start claiming there are Ethiopians in the Ugandan ranks? At any rate, now the government of Mr Yusuf have the advantage and it all depends on what they do next. Will they sit and attempt to have a civil discussion with the Courts or will they childishly start making threatening announcements (just like the Courts were making a week ago)? I sadly believe it to be the latter but seriously hope it’s not.

Three teams competed. Qatar came third. It was a shooting competition.

It’s also very likely that the United Nations Security Council, in it’s deliberations to lift the arms embargo from Somalia, will order Ethiopia not interfere in Somalia politics. If this should take place, and at first glance, it would be a viewed by some as a sort of victory for Courts. However, the idea of using AU peace forces in Somalia is still unlikely to be ditched. Indeed, some are still arguing for the deployment of Ugandan forces in Somalia! I wonder how the Courts will behave should such a resolution is reached! Will they start ranting about the Ugandan’s being unbelievers too and the necessity of Jihad against them? Could they guarantee that the public at large will not be suffering from propaganda fatigue by then? I fully agree with Baashe there and believe that the Courts’ only way to victory is to sit down with the TFG and make temporary concessions. Because looking at it from all angles and considering all possible outcomes of the political manoeuvrings so far I really can’t see any way out for the Courts. They’ve well and truly walked into this trap (a trap of their own making).

It's a shame that Mutakalem is keeping silent on these exchanges.

^^^^ Why would anyone want to collude against Somalia, my friend? Is it not possible that Kenya has changed its policy and concluded that a united Somalia is something that would never happen? Surely you can't really accuse them of hyporacy after they helped in creating the TFG. The failure of the TFG after all was not due to any outside interference but rather internal stubbornness and mistrust. Ps If having an interest in Somali politics would equal conspiring against Somalia (in your opinion) where does that leave your beloved Djibouti? I'm asking the question because your name indicates that you have some connection to that part of the Horn of Africa, if you don't you needn't bother to reply.

Couldn’t agree more, Baashe. Let us hope the UIC quickly get the hint and tone down their war cries. In the end the good guys will be those that avoid conflict at all costs (including tolerating one or two Ethiopian soldiers on Somali soil).

Originally posted by Northerner: Before we continue can someone define a mujahid/mujahideen? Does defending your land from Ethiopia (gaalo) and their corroborators make you a mujahid? Then we can at agree on something nice and early. If you read all the reports about the situation in Somalia today you must already know that it’s not only Ethiopia that is involved. Eritrea is also involved and is alleged to be supporting the Courts. As far as I’m aware Eritrea has never been a Muslim country! Does that mean that those in the TFG could also claim to be fighting a jihad against Eritrea? The situation in Somalia is really not as black and white as some of our hasty brothers here are painting it out to be. These Courts have been calling for a holy war against African troops since 2005 (way before they took power). The call for deploying African troops was in response to the stubbornness of the warlords of the capital (back when most of the brothers here used to support them or at least act indifferent). Now you’re all acting as if you’re dealing with simpletons and as if the issue of African troops was brought about as a response to the Court’s emergence! It’s not Ethiopia that is calling for a holy war. Ethiopia merely wants to support their lackeys in the Somali political scene. This, as you and I know, is not a new position or policy. It has always been thus. I am not siding with the TFG here for I consider them as rotten as the next group. However, I find this jihad nonsense to be insulting to any sane person’s intelligence. So far and from the way things stand it really looks like all sides are taking us for a nasty ride. If the Courts and the TFG are genuinely interested in the fate of Somalia they will both make concessions and trash a deal in their next scheduled talks. Ethiopia and Eritrea should not be the ones that call the shots here. It should be the Somali politicians (on both sides). However, I doubt that either side is willing to make any concessions and for that reason I’m reluctant to consider this coming war (should it come) as anything different to what we had before. Well, maybe the only difference would be is that Tigrey would be fighting other Tigrey on Somali soil. Stuff the lot of them.

^^^ The sheep that are full of bravado (but I have a feeling you already knew what I was talking about).

I give them a month of fighting before they start losing hope and blaming the Courts for bringing the Ethiopians into Somalia. Don’t really care for these so-called Mujahidin (for it’s not for me to bestow such a title on them) but my one and only prayer is that Allah eases the consequences and results of this war on the poor, simple and innocent people of Somalia. May the warmongers (on all sides) get stuffed.