Danish Foreign Minister Villy Sovndal and Minister of International Development

World Bank for Somalia, Sudan and South Africa

Apophis;875048 wrote: I doubt the Ugandans have the T-90 tanks (you maybe confusing it with the T72s which most African armies have, even the Ethios) but that is irrelevant because the Jubba terrain wouldn't be ideal for any heavy tank warfare plus they don't need tanks since their enemies posses none; they only need enough fire-power to knock out shabab technicals and they have light armoured fighting vehicles for that. The KDF is highly trained and specialised unlike the UPDF and the Ethiopian army. That's why they cannot absorb the same amount of casualties as the a other two, especially compared to the ethio army with it's trench warfare mentality. It may have taken them a year but the territory they have captured is a lot more secure than those captured by the Ethios. I'd rather a good job was done over a year than a shody, half hearted one in 2 weeks. I support the KFD. Patience bro; I know you wanted the long bearded ones to win but accept they have lost and their time is up. You are right, they haven't got T-90 but T-90 is an upgrade of T-72 anyway so therefore small armies do not see the need for it and opt for the T-72. Algeria is the only African army with T-90. A military thread should be created! :cool:

It was noticed, Ban Ki Moon said it and the Italian envoy I believe, so maybe, lets wait till Abdiweli returns.

Al-Shabaab still controls the city, I wonder how many Kenyans died because it was an amphibious attack they were conducting. :eek: It's truly a Complicated situation. *rimshot*

The PM's team were hard at work and they delivered a good speech.

Kenyan troops have launched an amphibious assault on the port stronghold of Somalia's Islamist al-Shabaab militants, landing forces on Kismayo's beach in a long-heralded attack meant to deal a fatal blow to the rebels. Residents, many of whom were hunkered down in their homes as the battle continued, said the attack came from the air and sea at around 3am local time. Some expressed fears the assault would signal the start of a wider battle for control of the strategic port among rival clan militias. "It was an amphibious assault, delicate and … meticulously planned," Colonel Cyrus Oguna, a spokesman for the Kenyan military, said. "We have so far encountered minimum resistance," he added, saying there had been no casualties among the Kenyan troops or their Somali National Army (SNA) allies. The Kenyan army has also been supported in its campaign by Ras Kamboni, a local militia. Abdi Buule, an elder in Kismayo, said Kenyan and Somali forces had pushed deep into the city. "The people are worried. No one could go outside this morning, even the people could not cook their breakfast. The fighting is now going on," he said by telephone. Al-Shabaab, which is linked to al-Qaida, withdrew from Mogadishu in August last year after fierce fighting with the Ugandan and Burundian troops of a 17,000-strong African Union peacekeeping force – Amisom. Since then, the militants, who include foreign fighters as well as Somalis and who have imposed a strict form of sharia law in the areas they control, have been forced further into the south of the country. Kismayo is their last major stronghold, and a key source of revenue: the militants are heavily dependent on earnings from charcoal exports through the port, and taxes levied on businesses. "We heard roars of heavy guns and aeroplanes flying over us. I fled from home with my two children to the other side of town," Aamina, 34, said by telephone from Kismayo. She said she had seen four bodies on Friday morning, including those of civilians. The elder, Abdi Buule, said around 160 people had been arrested by the Kenyan forces, who feared the militants would try to hide among the population. Oguna said Kenya used most of its naval assets in the operation, and that ground forces, which had been massing for an attack from the other side of Kismayo, were moving in, with some having already entered the city. He said the operation was carried out mostly by Kenyan forces and fighters from the SNA. "The operation is dynamic. We have been there for only a couple of hours. It is too soon to predict how long it will take," he said. A lot of infrastructure had been destroyed, he added, and al-Shabaab fighters had been killed although he could not give a number. Al-Shabaab said heavy fighting was continuing on Friday morning. "Ships have brought Kenyan troops on our Kismayo beach last night. Fierce fighting between us and them is going on now," Sheikh Abdiasis Abu Musab, al-Shabaab's spokesman for military operations, told Reuters. Kenyan forces crossed the border into Somalia in October last year to pursue the militants officials blamed for a series of kidnappings and cross-border raids. They joined Amisom in June. In the days before the beach-front assault, Kenyan jets attacked al-Shabaab logistic centres in the port, raising fears among aid groups that many civilians might be killed and injured in a final battle for the city. Human Rights Watch (HRW) reported in August that at least three civilians had been killed in shelling by Kenyan navy ships. HRW and the UN called on Kenyan troops to do more to protect Somalis during the military advance. Thousands of residents were reported to be fleeing the city in the past few weeks. The assault came less than a month after activist and professor Hassan Sheikh Mohamud was elected president in Mogadishu, the first leader to be chosen inside Somalia since the 1991 overthrow of dictator Mohamed Siad Barre. His inauguration raised hopes that Somalia might be entering a new era, although optimism was tempered by a series of deadly suicide bomb attacks in Mogadishu, including one targeting the new president. Analysts have pointed out that even if Kismayo falls, al-Shabaab fighters may melt into the sparsely populated countryside, harassing the Amisom forces and local population with guerrilla-style hit-and-run attacks. Some have also raised concerns about a possible power vacuum opening up. It is unclear who would ultimately control Kismayo, a lucrative source of income that has been fought over by Somali clans in the past. There have been reports of local militias arming themselves, and even of a former warlord travelling to the city from Mogadishu in the past few weeks. Abdi Buule, the elder in Kismayo, echoed these fears. "Every person is thinking what will happen in the next days. Al-Shabaab officials escaped but their fighters are still in the town … People here are very worried over the militias [fighting] alongside with Kenyan forces, who can create new inter-clan rivalry … Kismayo … is a very strategic town and so now every clan militia is getting ready to have its role in the town," he said. The fall of Kismayo will also intensify fears of retaliation within Kenya where security is already very tight. Kenyan youths are known to be fighting with al-Shabaab and there have been a series of grenade attacks on bars and churches in Kenya since the country's troops crossed into Somalia.

Hmm, reer Unuka is really becoming Unuka, damn :D

No, not Hutu, I am talking about Kacaan loyalists from Somaliland which led the first massacres during the 1980s, especially in Mudug areas where they imprisoned, killed and raped. A Khaatumo native even went as far as saying it was xalaal to do such things, a man who is alive today and living comfortably in continental Europe. So, I therefore ask Jacaylbaro who is making up 60,000 (notice, it's not even 50,000 anymore, it has been upgraded) to facilitate the smooth transfer of the accused if they really want justice.

Excellencies, The durability of our stabilization efforts will depend in large part upon our ability to revive and develop the Somali economy. Security and durable peace cannot exist without jobs and food therefore we must work hard to ensure that food is on the table of the average Somali family, to create job opportunities and to enable Somalis to work for themselves. Our country is abundant in resources - we have the longest coastline in Africa, 9 million acres of fertile land, the highest per capita livestock in the world. We have oil and minerals. We are strategically located at the gateway of the Middle East and Africa, at the confluence of the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea. Our challenge as Somalis is to use these resources to bring our country and our people back onto the global economic playing field. On the topic of resources, we are committed to strengthening the government's financial accountability. Somalia is a poor country and we cannot afford corruption. We seek the assistance of our international partners in establishing and strengthening transparent systems of public financial management. Excellencies, The problems of Somalia have spilled far beyond our borders. Foreign countries have taken in hundred of thousands of Somalis fleeing the crisis in our country, atconsiderable sacrifice to their own citizens; Somali pirates have become the scourge of shipping far from our shores. Extremists from across the world have used our territory as a base from which to plan and launch attacks against foreign countries. As Somalia reclaims its status as a full member of the International Community, we must acknowledge our responsibility as a nation, both for the proliferation of these problems and for their eventual resolution. We recognize the urgency of tackling these threats to international security, but we are also conscious of their complexity, and that lasting solutions can only be achieved through reflection, consultation, the force of law and only, as a last resort, the judicious use of force. We intend to engage with our international partners on all of these fronts, as we strengthen our own internal capacity to address these challenges. Excellencies, The road ahead is long, but we the Somali people are committed and we are ready. We have created the guideposts, and we have chosen a new leadership to help us move forward. We are grateful for the support of the world community - we would not be here today without your moral, political and financial support. Most dear to us is the personal sacrifices made by our African brothers and sisters who have come in person to help us protect our country and people. We cannot thank you enough and we hope one day to be able to repay you. As many today have noted, the United Nations was founded on the conviction that the nations of the world could come together in the spirit of cooperation to tackle their common problems for the sake of the whole of humanity. The world is going through a challenging period - economic cnses, religious tensions, resource disputes. Every nation has its own challenges and priorities. And yet, we come together as the United Nations to forge a common way forward because we recognize that this small earth is all the space we have and we must find a way to share it and coexist peacefully. As Somalis, we have learned this hard lesson through bitter experience, and we are living through it every day, each time another young man chooses to take his own lifeand the lives of others; each time a young mother has to bury a child. Let us not forgetthat in rebuilding a nation, or in steering the world to a better place, we are dealing with the lives of human beings, each life as precious as the next. For the future of our children, we must work harder to make our world peaceful and prosperous. In this context, on behalf of the Somali people, I want to convey our condolences to the United States and Algeria for the recent violent loss of their senior diplomats. Diplomacy is a peaceful calling and the foundation of the United Nations, and we must protect diplomats for their important role in promoting dialogue and better understanding across countries and cultures. The Members of this Assembly are not strangers to conflict and war. Many countries have experienced violence and destruction equal to or greater than my own. But few other countries in modern times have experienced such a prolonged period of 'statelessness': a nation without a recognized government, a valid passport or a convertible currency.But it is not just the material attributes of statehood that we have missed. To be 'stateless' in this world of States is injurious to a people's identity, to its rights and privileges as a nation, and to its dignity. It is time for us to reclaim Somalia's rightful place in the community of nations, to shoulder our duties and obligations, and to place our country in the service of peace, security and prosperity of this planet we share. On my behalf and on behalf of the people of Somalia and our President, H. E. President Hassan Sheikh Mohamud, I thank you.

Speech by Dr. Abdiweli Mohamed Mr. President, Mr. Secretary-General, Distinguished Heads of State and Government, Ladies and Gentlemen, Just over two weeks ago, Somalia took a bold and decisive step away from decades of division, disorder and conflict, and instead towards the reconstitution of a more representative, more democratic Somali republic at peace with itself, with its neighbours and with the rest of the world. On August 1st this year, a National Constituent Assembly adopted the new Somali Constitution; on August 20th, a new Parliament was sworn in, which elected our new president, His Excellency President Hassan Sheikh Mohamud, on September 10th. In the coming weeks, the President will appoint a Prime Minister and a new Cabinet will be duly established. Let me take this opportunity to convey the sincere regrets of President Mohamud - he would have liked to be here himself to address you on this great occasion however the tremendous scale and urgency of the challenges of leading Somalia and the demands of the new role did not permit him to travel here to New York to present his remarks in person. However he asked me to come here to convey his warm greetings and his vision for Somalia's future. Excellencies, For more than two decades of crisis, the Somali people have suffered and endured, but we have not done so alone. The United Nations have stood by us, providing humanitarian assistance to those of our people in need, helping us to rebuild from the ruins of war, bringing us time and again to the negotiating table to resolve our differences, and maintaining the dignity of the Somali nation by keeping our flag flying through these long, dark years. As we emerge from the long dark days, 1 wish to express my personal thanks, and that of the Somali people, to the Secretary General and his Special Representative, Ambassador Augustine Mahiga, for their tireless support and crucial role in helping to open this new chapter in Somali history. Somalia's progress is also due in great measure to the selfless courage and sacrifice of our brothers and sisters in the African Union, including our closest neighbours, whose forces have fought long and hard, with So many laying down their lives in the battle to give our children a better future. With the support of AMISOM and other partners, our armed forces are becoming increasingly experienced and capable, but we will need AMISOM's steadfast presence and mentoring for some time to come, and we call upon our brothers in the African Union to renew their commitment as we move forward to assume our own responsibilities in full. We thank our international partners who are diligently supporting AMISOM, especially the European Union and the US amongst others. The members of the League of Arab States and the Organization of Islamic Conference have also extended the hand of friendship to the Somali people during these difficult times. We are especially grateful to the government and people of Turkey, for their faith, courage and leadership in ending our long isolation, and building bridges between Somalia and the rest of the world. But now, with all these partners standing by us we must increasingly learn to travel our own path with our own energies, developing the ability to stand on our own feet, and step free from the reliance of our kind friends. Already, the Somali diaspora from around the world are returning to the country with investment and skills that will build the future Somalia. We can learn from how peace and growing prosperity has developed in other parts of the country. We must build on the return of normality in Mogadishu, and elsewhere in Somalia, and growing public confidence in the future. It is the Somali people, in the villages and the nomadic pastoralists, with their resilience, drive and dynamism that are best placed to lend real stability to Somalia's future. Excellencies, The end of Somalia's transition was brought about by the tremendous joint efforts of the Transitional Federal Government, Somali regional administrations, civil society and our traditional elders. Against all odds, within one year, Somalis were able to adopt a new provisional constitution, create a new parliament and elect a new President, heralding the beginning of a new era. This one-year experience has shown several things - when we put our minds to it, we Somalis are capable of overcoming tremendous obstacles and delivering on expectations. It has shown that we can effect our political transitions within our owncountry. It has shown that Somalis are indeed ready for a new chapter, and are calling for a permanent government that can build on the foundations of this remarkable year. Excellencies, Somalia's transition has officially ended, but the work of rebuilding our nation continues. The new administration has four short years to translate agreements and objectives made on paper into concrete, tangible progress for our people, and to place Somalia firmly on an irreversible path to enduring peace and growing prosperity. The most urgent challenge is to restore peace and security throughout Somali territory. Our forces, together with our African Union allies, are making great progress in this regard. But a stable peace cannot be achieved through military means alone. We must practice the politics of inclusion, establishing a credible, representative, inclusive and capable government: a government by the people, for the people; not government of the few, serving the interests of the few. Initially that government must be about delivering real governance and. connections with the people; it must be about the process of building local representation, addressing community justice and seeking to build basic services, rather than about distant institutions of government from Mogadishu, or even provincial centres. Power and responsibility must be devolved as close to the people as possible in accordance with the principles of federalism. It will be important to recognize the existence of other Somali authorities, as well as de facto political and military forces across the country, with whom we will work to establish a vibrant, prosperous and stable representative government democracy, firmly adhering to and grounded in Somali and Islamic values. And we will require a fair and independent judiciary, resistant to executive interference, that will meet the needs and earn the trust of ordinary citizens, while bringing an end to the culture of impunity that has gripped our nation for the past two decades. We have repeatedly extended olive branches to the government's adversaries and although these have been repeatedly rejected, our new President will continue to reach out and offer peace. AI-Shabaab is a complex and heterogenous movement: most of its members are ordinary citizens who have aligned themselves with AI-Shabaab out of fear or a sense of grievance. At the same time we must also be honest with ourselves that some sentiment comes from a nationalist, conservative faction of our fractured country that has been disillusioned and damaged by decades of conflict and have sought refuge in an extreme and harsh source of justice and security. To them we must prove that there is a better way. To them we have always said and will continue to say: "Brothers and sisters, lay down your arms and let us talk." We Somalis have a saying: "Colaad kasta nabad baa ka dambeysa" - after every war comes peace. So let us remember that we have no choice as a nation but to live together; let us settle our differences through dialogue and compromise, so that there is no longer any justification for any Somali to take up arms against another. To these few ideological extremists in AI-Shabaab's ranks who remain committed to the use of terror and the murder of innocents to achieve their aims, we say: there is no place in Somali society, nor in international society, for you and your violent creed. We willfight you until Somalia is once again a nation founded on peace, tolerance and management that constitute the true spirit of the great religion of Islam. Excellencies, As we focus our energies on the immediate challenges, we must nevertheless keep our longer-term goals clearly in view. The new government understands clearly that its purpose is not to entrench itself indefinitely in power, but to lay the foundation for a democratic system of governance, anchored in Islamic values, and based on universal, competitive elections, by August 2016. The new government has just four short years within which to establish the states and regions of this federation, and to do so in a way that unifies our people rather than dividing them. We must validate the new Constitution through consultation and referendum; establish systems of governance that serve the interests of the Somali people. And we must design representative electoral systems that serve to heal the divisions of our society, rather than to aggravate them. As we move away from transitional government, into the era of permanent government, we must establish a new compact for national coexistence, in which the aspirations of all Somalis are reflected, not only some. We recognize that the bonds of love and solidarity that bound us together in 1960 have been heavily damaged and sorely tested. The talks initiated earlier this year between the Transitional Federal Government and the Somaliland administration have begun well, and we intend to continue them. We will not use military or political coercion to bring out an artificial unity: we want genuine unity that results from negotiations, mutual respect and mutual agreement.

7 September 2012 – Addressing the General Assembly today, Somalia’s Prime Minister Abdiweli Mohamed Ali thanked the United Nations for all its help during the two decades of factional strife that has afflicted his country and acknowledged that it is now up to Somalis themselves to forge a peaceful and prosperous future. “The United Nations have stood by us, providing humanitarian assistance to those of our people in need, helping us to rebuild from the ruins of war, bringing us time and again to the negotiating table to resolve our differences, and maintaining the dignity of the Somali nation by keeping our flag flying through these long, dark years,” the recently-appointed Prime Minister said. “As we emerge from the long dark days, I wish to express my personal thanks, and that of the Somali people, to the Secretary General and his Special Representative, Ambassador Augustine Mahiga, for their tireless support and crucial role in helping to open this new chapter in Somali history,” he added. After decades of factional fighting and lawlessness, the Horn of Africa country has been undergoing a peace and national reconciliation process, with a series of landmark steps over recent weeks helping bring an end to the country’s eight-year political transition period. These steps included the adoption of a provisional constitution, the establishment of a new parliament and the selection of a new president. However, despite the recent advances in its peace and national reconciliation process, Somalia is still dealing with the impact of the Al-Shabaab militant group, which has been pushed out of Mogadishu but still controls some areas, primarily in south-central regions of the country. Prime Minister Ali thanked all the international partners who had helped Somalia over the years, including the UN-backed African Union peacekeeping force known as AMISOM – which has been instrumental in supporting Government efforts against the Al-Shabaab – the League of Arab States, the Organization of Islamic Conference, the European Union, Turkey and the United States, among others. “But now, with all these partners standing by us we must increasingly learn to travel our own path with our own energies, developing the ability to stand on our own feet, and step free from the reliance of our kind friends,” he stated. “Already, the Somali diaspora from around the world are returning to the country with investment and skills that will build the future Somalia.” The Somali leader stressed that the most urgent challenge is to restore peace and security throughout the country. “Our forces, together with our African Union allies, are making great progress in this regard. But a stable peace cannot be achieved through military means alone,” he said. Prime Minister Ali is one of scores of world leaders and other high-level officials presenting their views and comments on issues of individual national and international relevance at the Assembly’s General Debate, which ends on 1 October.

60,000, in what world? :confused: I call on Hargeisa to extradite the men behind the massacres in Mudug during the early 1980s to Gaalkacyo where they will face justice, if justice is what you are looking for that is.

It was one mistake but then she went into Mo Farah's background and I was like 'Hey lady, jooji now!' She was the late wife of Cigaal and Somalis throughout Somalia could have loved her, but then again Apophis is right, she's catering to a specific crowd.

Look at Pennsylvania! RCP Obama +8.3 CBS/NYT/Quinnipiac Obama +12 Franklin & Marshall +9 Tribune-Review/Susquehanna Obama +2 Rasmussen Reports Obama +12 WeAskAmerica Obama +6 Mercyhurst University Obama +8 Morning Call Obama +9 Rasmussen Poll which is the most conservative mainstream :eek:

Omg I totally understand what you are saying, like we are talking about candy and they go to muffins and I'm like 'u serious :rolleyes:', and they like 'yeah dude, this muffin be good ' :eek:

He's done. The polls are in. Ohio which is a must-win for Romney; In Ohio, where both Obama and Romney were campaigning Wednesday, a Quinnipiac/New York Times/CBS poll put Obama on 53% to Romney on 43%. The same poll put Obama ahead too in Florida, 53% to Romney's 44%. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/26/romney-campaign-polls-obama-ohio?newsfeed=true

Xaaji Xunjuf;874795 wrote: Somalia what if in 4 years time no states have been established than what and the situation in the middle regions is still the same Where u have ASWJ allied to the government and Oday Qeybdiid controlling half of Mudug. What is the government than suppose to do. Do you think its the task of the government to create federal states for the regions, or is it the task of the subclans all over the country? Then as Xiin said, the Somali people can vote on the constitution, if they are against federalism, they can reject it, but then we will say to each other, bye bye, it has been good and the Mudug border will be secured. :eek: What difference does it make if it is a self-appointed federal state or an official appointed from Mogadishu being governor of the region, cause in the end he still governs the same clans?

DoctorKenney;874759 wrote: A rehabilitation program would be an excellent idea, and it remains the best option available in dealing with Shabaab militants. Some of the Shabaab militants are indeed a lost cause, but I think prison should be handle those militants well To be able to do this however, we need mass manpower , with social workers, psychologists, and even teachers employed to rehabilitate former Shabaab militants and Shabaab-sympathizers. There are some Somalis who, even though they are not part of Shabaab, they still sympathize with Shabaab's rules and tactics. Those people are an enormous worry... We are talking a liberal view to this problem but studies have shown it to be a more effective method to changing a person than with brute force. For example in countries such as Norway they deal with criminals on a more humane level albeit they are a different breed but the overall theme is the same. Some ethical issues are bound to rise soon, but we will have to see which direction the president goes.

Xaaji Xunjuf;874742 wrote: Somalia , you are not seriously comparing Germany with Somalia , Germany is a country of 81 million people a country which had a German empire for centuries. By the way Germany was not dealing with subclanish rivalries and divisions their provincial federal states are based on normal regional constituencies. Their division was eastern Berlin was under the rule of communist Russia while the western Germany at that time was capitalist Germany. Somalia is dealing with other problems Somalia needs a strong decentralized state which delivers basic services to its people instead of being busy building more Qabil states. But we shall see how it goes in 4 years time if there is more progress in building another Qabil state in another part of Somalia time will tell so far after 21 years we have one federal state. I am comparing Germany because it also came out of a war and there was deep mistrust due to outside interference, the same with Ethiopia. The division with Somaliland is comparable cause we all fall under foreign influence due to lack of government. And if we have a federal system power will not lie with a few in a critical time of mistrust and borderline hatred. We can't say not to federalism because some people are not capable of forming a government, we can't conform a good system. If we were to give an alternative structure of government there is no indication that these regions would abide by it.

Carafaat;874729 wrote: When will Azania secure Kismayo. Or will Faroole make Galkacyo secure enough to visit himself. Hey! Faroole visited Gaalkacyo this year during the funeral of Halyeey Abdullahi Yusuf Ahmed, friend of Republic of Somaliland, with the president Sheikh Shariif & senior government officials and foreign dignitaries, after which they struck the Gaalkacyo Amendment (of Garowe Principles) and they all flew away from the airport which should not be named for Abwaan's health.

Well, we can't blame the misuse of federalism on the concept. It has worked in many countries throughout the world, it's a success, for example look at Germany it is federal, but it is getting closer and closer to a centralised state and it also had a reunification in 1990, so when the success of federalism is realised and put into effect, we might reunite with the separatist region Somaliland as the founder mudane president Tuur realised.

Carafaat;874723 wrote: Duke dreams of clan states. He wants every clan to have State. That is his vision of governance. See Galkacyo divided by 3 States. What are you talking about, Gaalkacyo is two sides.

This is the job of the acting defence minister, Xuseen Ciise Carab and AMISOM.

Xaaji Xunjuf;874717 wrote: I am not insulting any one they are Somalis and good people in my book but i dont see it Somalia, federalism was introduced in 2004 and i never seen any one enthusiastic about forming blocks and states in those regions have you? Ximan iyo xeeb and galmudug are basically from the same sub clan yet they cant agree to form a state. Hiiraan its self was suggested by the hiiraan people to be divided into 2 regions i dont see where this is heading. But they have many problems including ICU threat and now Al-Shabaab threat so that's why they have been late. Also Hiiraan will have to unite with other regions if their bid to divide the region does not suffice. Because Hiiraan is the same size as Hobyo district and what if every region wants to divide, we have now 36 regions in Somalia, it is a slippery slop. Are you saying we should shelve federalism because people do not want to build states? It is not wise to shelve federalism and change the system because some people are peacefully unable to form states. So as an alternative, we must allow the people of Ximan and Xeeb, and Galmudug to have a dialogue. I think Galmudug can become a federal state on its own if it gets villages in Galguduud. Mudug intellectual Kaligii Duul talks about it here http://mudugnet.com/Aragtida/2012/yaa%20ka%20dambeeya%20shirqoolka%20&%20khiyaanada%20Galinsoor.htm And here is also another insight depth. http://mudugnet.com/Aragtida/2012/Arinka%20Galinsoor.htm