Saudi Scholars and Adult Breast-Feeding

[Blessed]

Okay, I've found a good explanation of the hadith on another site, it was a solution for keeping an adopted son in the house. Doesn't explain these stu*pid fatwas, though.

 

My imam would get slapped silly, if he came out with such nonesense @ Che. It doesn't only contradict ayat on suckling but also those on modesty.

[Ibtisam]

Rhazes, ciidi debategaresan uu sheeg. I don't really see the need to comment on this. As I said this hadith has been for years, I don't see the point of debating it now. I dont think it is a solution to Saudis problem.

 

I take the Quran over all else, the odds seem stacked against this issue.

[Khayr]

Originally posted by *Ibtisam:

[QB] The hadith normally used: Book 008, Number 3425:

 

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hadhaifa, lived with him and his family in their house. She (i. e. the daughter of Suhail came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Salim has attained (puberty) as men attain, and he understands what they understand, and he enters our house freely, I, however, perceive that something (rankles) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa, whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said to her: Suckle him and you would become unlawful for him, and (the rankling) which Abu Hudhaifa feels in his heart will disappear. She returned and said: So I suckled him, and what (was there) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa disappeared.

In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

 

 

Let us first look at the translation of the Hadith mentioned in the Sahih of Imam Muslim and elsewhere:

 

 

Sayyida A?isha (Allah be pleased with her) reports that Sahla bint Suhayl came to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) and said: ?O Messenger of Allah! I see on the face of Abu Hudhayfa (signs of dislike) on the entering of Salim, who is an ally, (into our house). The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: ?Suckle him.? She said: ?How can I suckle him as he is a grown-up man? The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) smiled and said: ?I already know that he is a young man.? (Sahih Muslim, no: 1453)

 

 

Another version of this Hadith is as follows:

 

 

Sayyida A?isha (may Allah be pleased with her) reports that Salim, the freed-slave of Abu Hudhayfa, lived with him and his family in their house. She (i.e. the daughter of Suhayl and wife of Abu Hudhayfa) came to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) and said: ?Salim has attained (puberty) as men attain, and he has began to understand what they understand, and he enters our house freely, I, however, think that Abu Hudhayfa feels uncomfortable with this. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said to her: ?Suckle him and you would become unlawful for him, and (the dislike) which Abu Hudhayfa feels in his heart will disappear.? She returned and said: ?I have suckled him and what (was there) in the heart of Abu Hudhayfa has disappeared.? (Sahih Muslim)

 

 

Before coming to any sort of conclusion, we need to first understand the background and context of this incident. Imam Abu al-Abbas al-Qurtubi (Allah have mercy on him) states in his commentary of Sahih Muslim:

 

 

?Salim (in this Hadith) is Salim ibn Ma?qal?Abu Hudhayfa had adopted him in accordance with the customs of the Arabs. He (Salim) had been brought up and raised by Abu Hudhayfa and his wife as their own son. When the verse of the Qur?an ?Call them (your adopted children) by (the names of) their (real) fathers?.? (Surah al-Ahzab, V: 5) was revealed, the ruling of adopting children was abrogated (in that one can no longer consider an adopted son to be one?s own). However, Salim continued to reside and enter the house of Sahla (the wife of Abu Hudhayfa) as he was a minor. When he grew old and came close to puberty, both Abu Hudhayfa and Sahla disliked the idea of him entering freely upon Sahla, but they found it difficult to mention this to him, given the fact that he had lived with them (and was brought up by them), hence they asked the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) regarding this. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said to Sahla: ?Suckle him and you would become unlawful for him, and (the dislike) which Abu Hudhayfa feels in his heart will disappear? hence she suckled him and it so happened (i.e. the dislike of Abu Hudhayfa disappeared)?? (al-Mufhim lima Ashkal min talkhis Kitab Muslim, 4/186, Dar Ibn Kathir print)

 

 

The above clearly illustrates that Salim was adopted by Abu Hudhayfa and his wife Sahla. He had lived with them and was raised and brought up by them since childhood. However, Islam does not recognize legal adoption and an adopted child is not considered a real child, hence after reaching puberty, the rules of Hijab are applicable. It became very difficult for Salim to live with his adoptive mother due to this rule, thus the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) advised Sahla to make Salim drink her breast-milk, whereby the rules of Hijab would be lifted.

 

 

It is narrated in the Tabaqat of Ibn Sa?d and elsewhere that Sahla would pour her breast-milk into a utensil each day for five continuous days and Salim would drink from it. He did not directly drink from the breast of Sahla, as it is not permitted to expose one?s nakedness (awra) in front of a non-Mahram adult, let alone have him suckled. Thus, the objection raised by some non-Muslims that this was an immoral act has no significance, for Sahla did not directly suckle Salim, as he had reached puberty. Imam Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani (Allah have mercy on him) has also mentioned this in his al-Isaba fi tamiz al-Sahaba. (See: Tabaqat Ibn Sa?d, 8/271 & al-Isaba, 4/337)

 

 

This leaves us with the question whether is it allowed for an adult to drink breast-milk, and what implications would that hold?

 

 

It is a well-known and recognised fact amongst the majority of the Muslim jurists (fuqaha) that suckling is not permitted after two (or 2 and a half) years, neither does it affect the rules of Hijab and marriage. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) quite clearly mentioned this in one Hadith where he said: ??suckling is only valid if it takes place in the suckling period.? (Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 2504 & Sahih Muslim, no. 1455) The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) also said: ?Suckling (radha?a) does not prohibit (i.e. marriage) except which penetrates the intestines (m: meaning which serves as a nourishment for the child) from the breasts, and it is prior to weaning.? (Recorded by Imam al-Tirmidhi in his Sunan, no. 1152)

 

 

Due to the above narrations, all four Sunni schools of Islamic law are in agreement that suckling and breastfeeding will only be considered (i.e. in effecting the rules of marriage and Hijab) if it takes place in the period designated for it, and it is of no significance after that period.

 

 

Thus, scholars mention that the permission given by the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) for Sahla to give her milk to Salim was a special dispensation and an isolated case, and it cannot be generalized. Imam Abu al-Abbas al-Qurtubi (Allah have mercy on him) states that all of the Prophet?s wives with the exception of A?isha (Allah be pleased with them all) considered this to be a special dispensation, and this is the view taken by the majority of early (salaf) and late (khalaf) scholars. They considered the Hadith to be specific with Salim and Sahla, and are of the opinion that it is not permitted for an adult to drink breast-milk. If an adult did drink breast-milk, it will be of no consequence with regards to marriage and the rules of Hijab. (See: al-Mufhim, 4/186-187 & I?la al-Sunan, 11/119)

 

 

Moreover, Umm Salama, the wife of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) used to say: ?All the wives of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) rejected the idea that one can come to them (without observing the rules of Hijab) with this type of breastfeeding (i.e. the suckling of an adult), hence they said to A?isha (Allah be pleased with her): ?By Allah, we do not consider this but a dispensation given by the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) for Salim. No one is to be allowed to enter (our houses) with this type of fosterage and we do not subscribe to this view.? (Sahih Muslim, no: 1454)

 

 

Thus, in conclusion, it is not permitted for an adult to intentionally drink breast-milk; neither will it have any bearing on the rules of Hijab and marriage. The companion Salim (Allah be pleased with him) was given a special dispensation by the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) to drink the milk of Sahla, the wife of Abu Hudhayfa, due to the special circumstances of their case. However, Salim did not directly drink the milk from the breast of Sahla, rather, she would pour the milk in a utensil and he would drink from it.

 

 

And Allah knows best

 

Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari

Darul Iftaa, Leicester, UK

[Che -Guevara]

Originally posted by *Ibtisam:

Why @ Che? Miya la qarininya?

 

The hadith exist, and has done so for centuries; why it is suddenly being used is the issue. Why now? and how is this linked to the new inventions of sexual expression.

Sorry-I'm little lost (watching Nigeria game). The is Xadiis being used to justify the Fatwa or you are quoting to dismiss silly thing.

 

I was gonna say one doesn't even have to refer to religion to see somethings are silly. Common sense should prevail here and those Fatwa issuers should be karbaashid.

 

 

loool@blessed

 

The extreme segregation of sexes is causing all sorts of ill behaviors.I wonder when it comes to Saudis or Arabs in general, is it religion or culture determines how women are treated?

 

Growing up in Pakistan, one comes to understand Islam plays little role in the treatment of women. Islam is only reinforce old traditions which are oppressive to women.

[Prometheus]

Khayr, I guess it depends on which scholar you accept as authoritative. Al-Albani not only refutes the idea that this was a particular incident or an abrogated one (makhsuus or mansukh) - that is inapplicable thereafter - he argued that it was a ruling of general import. In fact, he's even on tape saying that a man can suckle directly from the 'helma' or nipple. There's no shortage of weird dispensations by this or that mullah.

[Prometheus]

Originally posted by Che -Guevara:

 

I was gonna say one doesn't even have to refer to religion to see somethings are silly. Common sense should prevail here and those Fatwa issuers should be karbaashid.

 

 

The extreme segregation of sexes is causing all sorts of ill behaviors.I wonder when it comes to Saudis or Arabs in general, is it religion or culture determines how women are treated?

[Blessed]

It's definitely cultural. Historically the position of women changed over decades with early 'golden era' being more favorable times in some places; there were more female scholars, judges and teachers which was reflected in fatwas. Hada the role of women has been reduced to reproduction and pleasing husbands which is far removed from what we learn about Muslim community of Madinah.

 

Saudi intrigues me, most of their social problems are created by their obsession with segregating the sexes, from personal observation they have more problems than 'less conservative' Arab states.. .

[xiinfaniin]

Rhaze, su'aaal awoowe.

 

Ma sheekadaad xiiseyneysaa mise, xaddiiska iyo sixadiisa baad dood ka qabtaa?

[Prometheus]

xiinow, arrinta meesha taali maaha xadiiska iyo sixadiisa, umaddu way wada ogtahay inuu xadiiskani iyo 'xigmadaha' la mida Bukhaari inoo soo tebiyay. Awoowe, su'aasha waxa weeyaan innagu ma wixii naloo sheego uun baynu iska qaadanaynaa mise wixii faa'ido leh oo macquul ah.

 

Dooddu nuxurkeedu maaha sidii qofka loo naas nuujin lahaa: mubaasharatan miyuu qofku ibta uga cabayaa, ma hadhuub baa loogu shubi? Ula-jeeddadaydu waxa weeye in umadda casr taxajjur-ka laga saaro. Teeda kale, waxaad adigu ogtahay inuu khaldanyahay maxaad u difaaci? 'Fulaynimada fikirku', waa halkii qoraagii macruufka ahaa, ma wanaagsana, awoowe. "Diintaa meel lagaga dhacayaa" kaa dhegaysan maayo.

[xiinfaniin]

^^

 

Goormay wax-isweydiintu 'difaac' noqotay, Arhassoow?

 

Mabda'iyan kaama fogi, ee waxaan saluugsanahay mawduuca taagta daran ee aad malaha damacday inaad doodaada caarad uga dhigto. Qof dumar ah oo soo jeeda, nin weyn oo ilkihiisa qaba ma nuugi karaa horta awoowe? Waxaas baashaal aa la dhahaa ee diin maaha. Somalida rag baa ku qaldamay oo fiqhigaa ciriiriga ah ku ag kufay allaha abaal ka siiyo dadaalkooda laakiin wax curfiga mutawaatirka ah ee ammaddan islaamka diiday weeye waxa aad ka sheekeneyso

 

xigmadna kama arko

 

Hadaadse mawduuca xiiso u hayso maad u caddaalad fashid oo soo tebisid waxay mad-habuhu ka yiraahdeen. Intaad Blogs haween caraysan qoraan aad soo xiganayso maad naga waraabisid ceelka rasmiga ee diinta marjaca u ah.

 

difaacna maahi

[Prometheus]

^ After a laborious exposition of his intent and sentiment, a storied poet, chagrined by the astounding ability of his interlocutor to misapprehend so simple a message, replied:

 

Dhankaan ka hadlay wakaa Qamaan, dhaafay hadalkiiye

 

Ka rog oo haddana saar. Fiqhiga naas-nuujinta anigu macno wayn ii samayn meyso oo wakhti lumis baan u arkaa. Hadaayay anigoo is lahaa inanta Ibtisaam wax tusaalee waxan idhi culimo ay Albaani ka mid yihiin baa ku iftooday nin weyn oo gadh leh in toos loo naas nuujin karo, malaha wuu khaldamay sheekhu, laakiin waxaasi ma cudur daar caqli galayaa? Muu khaldamin sheekhu ee xadiis ay fari ku godantahay buu cuskaday.

 

Dhibaata waxa sabab u ah sida axaadiista Bukhaari looga dhigo aayad quraan ah, dabadeedna qiil iyo ta'wiil loo raadiyo. Bukhaari wuu dadaalay laakiin markani wuu yara kufay miyaan la odhan karayn. Naas-nuujinta qof weyn oo dhan ayaa wax ka khaldan, taasi isweydiin ma leh; xadiis caynkan oo kale in dheg jalaq loo siiyo maaha. Qawlku waa intaa, awoowe, ee wax fahan, waa halkii NGONGE.

[Maaddeey]

^Albaani oo Muxadithul Casr ah baa Xadiith ay fari ku godantahay cuskaday, markaasaa Rhazes al majhuulul afiin qaladkiisa gartay! yaa daycatal cilm.

 

Yaa Miskiin, Xadiiska Bukhaari kuma yaal ee ujeedadaadu ar mey tahay: Maraajicda Muslimiinta ee ugu saxsan inaad dagaal ku qaaddo?.

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

this is progressive for those cave dwellers, islamically speaking, drinking the breast milk of some old lady can gain you a larger circle people that you can interact as you see fit...

[NGONGE]

Saudi Arabia is a curious society where the forces of progression are in a constant struggle with the traditionalists. There is a middle ground of course but it is getting ignored by the extremists from both sides. For example, the link to the Saudiwomen blog that the author of this thread posted is one from a group who are extremely liberal.

 

As a result of this constant and unending debate/fight between the two sides, all manner of arguments over non-issues keep arising. One of which is this breast feeding fiasco. Still, what could a scholar do when asked a question about such a hadith and its permissibility? Tell the questioner that the world has changed and that such an idea is not acceptable (despite the presence of a hadith)? Dismiss the hadith itself? Dismiss the questioner?

 

Those that seek to sensationalise such issues are taking advantage of this fatwa for their own political reasons. It is an attempt to chip away at the authority of scholars in Saudi Arabia and saying to anyone that would listen “The scholars are rubbish. They instruct people to suckle random breasts, kill Shia and obey the drunken royals”. For a downtrodden Saudi who is fed up with the world and all in it, such a cry would strike an exposed cord.

 

On the other hand, the fiercely conservative block would fight them back with accusations of encroaching liberalism, of turning an innocent and practical gesture into a sexual fetish, and they’ll also try to appeal to the average Saudi by saying “To suckle a woman’s breast in order to become a religiously accepted brother of hers is a noble and practical idea. These liberals with their sexual fetishes and swinger parties always view things according to their relation to sex”.

 

The discussion about mixing between the sexes continues and the scholars (moderate or highly conservative) will always play a big part in it. This, believe it or not, is progress and is a thousand times more interesting than the intellectual discussions taking place in the West.

 

Hail the cave dwellers.

[xiinfaniin]

Originally posted by Rhazes:

^ After a laborious exposition of his intent and sentiment, a storied poet, chagrined by the astounding ability of his interlocutor to misapprehend so simple a message, replied:

 

Dhankaan ka hadlay wakaa Qamaan, dhaafay hadalkiiye

 

Ka rog oo haddana saar. Fiqhiga naas-nuujinta anigu macno wayn ii samayn meyso oo wakhti lumis baan u arkaa. Hadaayay anigoo is lahaa inanta Ibtisaam wax tusaalee waxan idhi culimo ay Albaani ka mid yihiin baa ku iftooday nin weyn oo gadh leh in toos loo naas nuujin karo, malaha wuu khaldamay sheekhu, laakiin waxaasi ma cudur daar caqli galayaa? Muu khaldamin sheekhu ee xadiis ay fari ku godantahay buu cuskaday.

 

Dhibaata waxa sabab u ah sida axaadiista Bukhaari looga dhigo aayad quraan ah, dabadeedna qiil iyo ta'wiil loo raadiyo. Bukhaari wuu dadaalay laakiin markani wuu yara kufay miyaan la odhan karayn. Naas-nuujinta qof weyn oo dhan ayaa wax ka khaldan, taasi isweydiin ma leh; xadiis caynkan oo kale in dheg jalaq loo siiyo maaha. Qawlku waa intaa, awoowe, ee wax fahan, waa halkii NGONGE.

Ku gartay! Bukhaari baa xadiiska ku qaldamay, haddaad markii horeba oranlahayd soo jawaab habboon kuma siiyeen, Arhassoow? Waxaad u hadlaysaa sidii in muslimiintu iska jeclaadeen Bukhaari buuggiisa oo uusanba ku dhisnayn qawaacid iyo shruud sixada xadiiska lagu hubiyo

 

Sidaa inaan ku dayney ku roontahay.