Sunnah Versus Shia Discussion Forum

[JustCause]

The post below is Viking's reply to the topic.

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Nur,

What have you to say about 'Abasa bro? Do you genuinly believe that it was the Prophet PBUH who frowned at the poor blind man? Frowning is not something connected to Our Beloved Prophet, he was even friendly towards his enemies, let alone a poor blind man who was interested in the Diin of Allah SWT. Our Prophet is not known for preferring the rich to the poor, like in the case of Abdullah ibn Um Maktoum. Do you think that the verse referred to Our Noble prophet or one of his companions?

 

There are numerous verses in the Holy Qur'an where Allah SWT praises His Noble Prophet and told us to follow him, for Prophet Muhammad PBUH was the BEST of mankind. In the following verse of the Qur'an, Allah SWT says...

 

Now hath come unto you an Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers is he most kind and merciful. Qur'an 9:128

 

The Shi'a and the Sunni schools differ on this matter and I am not trying to support the notion that Our Noble Prophet PBUH was infallible (although this Sura negates that claim) but just have a hard time believing that Our prophet PBUH would frown and turn away from a blind man.

 

Salafi,

You forgot to mention Salafi in the group of sects Islam has disintegrated into since the death of our Noble Prophet PBUH. He told us that we'd break into 73 divisions and only ONE would be right. So you could use some updating to that list sxb.

[JustCause]

The discussion is pointless because is not educational but rather one sided and this will create deep divisions within the Muslims—and in our eyes nothing is more harmful than that. If you on the other hand, had approached this discussion by first looking the commonalty between the communities and emphasised on our commons (which we believe to be greater than our differences), we could have then said this discussion is both educational and beneficial. Unfortunately we cant say that.

 

We don’t doubt that, differences exist between the two communities but we should concentrate on our similarities, since this way we can eliminate common held misconceptions by both sides.

 

By the way, there is no correlation between how long a response/writing is to the discussion at hand. Anyone looking for the correlation between the two is barking at the wrong tree! The most beneficial writings that humans produce are the work of science for instance and if you look at this literature, you will find they are concise and short.

 

With all due respect, brother I don’t think you even read our last long post, and from where we stand it seems you pretty much made up your mind and you are here to denounce Shi’as as non-believers. We hope we are wrong on this assertion and we are more than happy for you state the opposite. No one can pronounce a judgment of Kufr/shirk on anyone who says, there is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet. We wont bother with Salafi as he seemed to have monopoly on Islam and thus decides who is and who is not a Muslim. From where we stand that is a judgment only Allah can make.

 

You are claiming there are fundamental differences and yet we don’t see your evidence except we get a hearsay from you. You said the Shi’as believe the Qur’an is NOT COMPLETE and when we showed you this is not the case by providing you what both the Shi’a and Ahl'ul Sunnah scholars had to say about this charges, you are still insisting on your accusation. You are insisting it by saying, how can you trust the Shi’as at face value when they believe Tuqya (a means to conceal ones beliefs—we will touch on this later on). Tell us then, how come the two Sunni scholars we quoted who are prominent scholars trusted them on this issue? We will be glad to know what you know and those scholars do not know.

 

Let us illustrate to you that there no fundamental differences between the two sides, because a scholar like Shaikh Yusuf al Qaradawi is arguing the opposite of what you are saying. So do we believe him or you? His argument runs like this; both Shi’as and Sunnis share many fundamental beliefs, such as faith in one God, in Prophet Mohammed (Pbuh) as the 'Seal of the Prophets', in all the heavenly scriptures and prophets and in the Qur’an as God's word. Shi’as as well as Sunnis agree in the matters of the five pillars of Islam. Furthermore, he goes on to argue that the differences between Shi’as and Sunnis in the ways in which the five pillars are understood are like the scholarly difference in opinion among the four Sunni schools themselves.

 

Again you throw very powerful charge carelessly by saying, the Shi’as said the Sahabah were ‘kufaar’. We ask you to back this charge up with conclusive evidence and not just present us with hearsay. We will be the first to admit the Shi’as don’t consider the first three caliphs as their spiritual leaders but nonetheless they believe they were good Muslims and good companions. Imam Jafar Sadiq, whose mother and grandmother came from the line of Abu-Bakr, had said of Abu-Bakr, "He gave me birth twice." Shi’as respect Ayisha and call her the "Mother of Believers," since Ali respected her when he sent her back from Basra to Madinah after the Battle of the Camel (in which she fought against him). Therefore, if some Shi’as do insult the three caliphs and Ayisha, they do it out of ignorance, but this doesn’t make them kufaar/shirk.

 

In an authentic Hadith agreed by both Sunni and Shi'a, the prophet said that his Nation would be divided in to 73 sects; only one would enter paradise and all the rest would go into hell. Based on this saying, let us for arguments sake assume that the Shi'as due to their criticism of the Sahabah are one of the 72 sects that shall enter the hell. That leaves us with a further 71 sects that shall also join the Shi'a in hell! The difficulty here is the fact that the remaining 71 sects most of them admire/respect the Sahabah, and are not critical of any one of them. Despite this fact, they shall still enter the hell! How do you explain this? Do you have proof from Islamic theology that says criticizing the Sahabah leads one to the hell fires of tomorrow?

 

On the question of Shi’as considering their imams to be infallible is not true. We beg you to produce evidence that backs this very serious charge. All prophets are born Prophet but as mentioned in Quran about Abraham that after passing the test, a prophet becomes a leader (Imam). Imams are carriers of the message of Islam and nothing more.

 

 

Now let us turn on the question of Tuqya. The definition of Tuqya is 'concealing one's religion or faith due to fear, but in one's heart, the person must believe in the religion s/he is concealing'. In other words, it is a form of self-defence that allows one defending, one's life, property and beliefs. The Shi’as used this to defend themselves and their property from attacks; we all see this happening all the time and recently we witnessed this in Pakistan. Thus, this usage is permissible under Islamic law and it says, if a person is caught up between two hardships and one of them is intolerable, then to save one's self from the bigger hardship, one should tolerate the smaller one. Therefore, Imam of Ahl'ul Sunnah Fakhruddin Razi wrote,

 

“When faced with two hardships, one should go through the smaller one to save one's self from the bigger one. This is a recognized fact.â€

Tafseer-e-Kabir, Volume 5, Page 746-750, published Istanbul

 

Thus, we ask you to show us with proofs that, the intensions of the Shi’as when using Tuqya are a way for them to cheat and deceive the Sunnis as opposed to saving their lives and property from danger.

 

I think we will stop here and wait for your reply. However, we beg of you not to just throw seriously charges recklessly, but rather to think carefully of what you are saying, and please back up anything you say. Remember, Allah is watching us and we ask him for guidance on these discussions.

[Nur]

Fineman

 

First of all I appreciate your rebuttals, this was meant to be a frank dialgue, a civilized way to settle differences ( not an uncivil war like in Somalia)

 

The discussion is one sided because neither you nor Viking is clear about your persuation of which school of thought, Sunni or Shia you subscribe, and also for your proxy status of relaying messages by hidden debators who would rather speak with others pennames. So please let me know where you stand, a Sunni sympathetic to the Shia school, a believer of Shia and so on.

 

Next, the diffreneces are not small as you say, they are many, and Alhamdulillah everything I said, will be backed up, not only with Quran and Sunnah, but with Shia scholars like Majlisi who wrote the masterpiece known as the " Bihaar ul anwaar" Oceans of Light a hundred volume work that pretty much summarizes Shia beliefs and Kulieny, the author of the famous Al Kaafi book.

 

I will also back my claims up with undisputable original sources of great Shia contemporary scholars who joined their Sunnah brothers after finding out how far the Shia religion has gone, Sheiks like Al Sayyid Hussein Al Musawi, a great scholar from Al Najaf, born and raised in Karbala, studied under the great Shia scholar, Imaam Al Sayyid, Muhammad Aal Husseyn Kaashif Al Ghadaa ( Shroud uncoveror).

 

 

Again Please clarify your position in this debate so we can play on level ground, I assure you inshAllah a fast learning curve, which will add to you more substance and objectivity.

 

Nur

[Nur]

Salafi Bro

 

Allah SWT says " Wa idaa qultum facdiluu "

 

"When you say (something) be just"

 

The groups that you have listed are not all the same, they vary from Kufr to lost groups, to groups that are (Muta-Awil) but mistaken, to groups who like you claim toi only follow the Quraan and Sunnah.

 

What will save you though is how wise you try to differentiate these groups and call of them to islam with Wisdom if indeed that was your goal, but if you enjoy this way of speech, i assure you that you will noit wins hearts to islam, the Sunnah of Messenger was KIND but FIRM, so be firm where it si needed, and be kind where it is needed, think saving people, not gratifying others.

 

 

Nur

[JustCause]

Nur is good to hear from you but we are saddened to learn again that you have not added anything to the debate. As far as we can see the debate is one sided—since we are the only people backing everything we state with evidence. The question of what we believe or not should not concern you at all. Since this is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. You have every right to attack our points and scrutinise them but please do this with evidence. As for Viking, we cannot speak for him and we hope he will do that himself in due time.

 

 

If you are here to just paint the Shi’as as non-Muslims (i.e. kafir/mushrik) we are sorry we cannot continue the debate. This is because we are not here to debate whether they are Muslims or not. What is more, we cannot accept under any circumstances that they are non-Muslims. They are Muslims as long as they believe Islam.

 

We showed you the commonalities we believe we have in common and we are more than happy if you attack this claim with evidence---but please stop implying Shi’as are non-Muslims. You keep saying, this is an educational post about Shi’a and yet we do not see Shi’as in this forums (not in noticeable number anyway) or people hopping to convert to them/Shi’as trying to convert people here. So please enlighten us, about the education you are talking about or is this just a forum for Shi’a bashing!

 

We hope we continue to have this debate in a meaningful manner and we look forward to hear what you have to say.

[Haddad]

It's my belief in order to grasp what the Shia order of Islam is about, one has to learn it from the people that concern it, especially the common Shiite. The common Shiite is found in Iran and Iraq. As with the Sunnis, the Shiites also have the moderates, conservatives and something else in between. There are all kinds of written materials and rumors we read or hear about the the Shiites. I as a Sunni Muslim, have lots positive feelings and perceptions about Shiite Muslims. I feel I have a lot of common with them, and little negligble differences. When I hear the word Shia mentioned, the guerilla movement Hizbollah and what they do for Muslims (rebelling the enemy, providing social services, among others) comes into my mind. How Iraqi Sunnis and Shiites live peacefully and cooperate, how they intermarry without a problem comes into my mind. I haven't read or heard about minority Sunni Iranians having problems in Iran. The Shiites know quite well who the enemies of Islam are, hardly cooperate with them and are at the forefront of those who fight them. It's my belief we Sunni Muslims need to minimize the differences we have with our Shiite brothers/sisters, emphasize and strengthen what we have in common (especially the dogmas and pillars of Islam), cooperate on rebelling the enemies of Islam and stay away from what divides us. Allahu akbar.

[Salafi_Online]

Bro Nur, Allah Musta3an those groups all have one thing in common . one hadith sums it up!

 

"Wa sharrul Umoori Muhdathaatuhaa, Wa kulla Bid'atin dhaialah, wa kulla dhalatin fin-naar" Al-Hadith (Sahih Muslim).

 

Bro, if i was unjust to any of those groups, please feel free to point out which one is free from the above Hadith!

[Mutakalim]

Nur:- If you really want to learn and discuss the shia ideology , then I am willing to do so. We shias, differ from the the sunnis in ways more than one. There are cardinal discrepancies between the shia and sunni in matters pertaining to "'aqaid", the islamic doctrines. All other differences between us and the sunnis insofar as the differences are of a juristic nature, is, inconsequential. Let us debate the "caqaaid" as it is the "form" of our religion; everything else is but a mere derivation thereof (shariica, akhlaaq, fiqh etc.).

 

If you are receptive to the discussion, I will demand of you "amreeyn", two things:

1) I will use proofs from your books to explicate the legitimacy of our beliefs. I will refer to the eminent sunni scholars (mufassiriin) and their exegis (zamakhsahri, siyuudi, etc.); I will not refer to the second-rate tafasiir written by your scholars (ibn kathiir, dabari, qutb, etc.). I will not communicate to you like a commoner, I will assume you are intimately familiar with all your concepts. If that is not the case, then I do not wish to "teach" anything. This is a challenge and thus will it remain.

2)The relgious proofs I will advance will be "rational" and of course "narrational". I shall start the discussion of the rationality of our beliefs.

 

May He shower His blessings on His prophet and his famliy, for they are the Ark of Salvation in a stormy sea of hypocrisy.

 

With Salaams

PK

[JustCause]

Well you should have told us this was not a debate but a forum for you to bash Shi’as (calling them Kufr and so on) and everyone as always agreeing with you, what great job you have done! How wrong we were in believing you wanted sincere debate in the beginning. Both parties contribute where we come from to a debate and one should always challenge what is posted. We have done our share of that and refuted everything you accused of Shi’as and you done nothing but repeat the same allegations over and over again. For instance take the question of the completeness of the Qu’arn, we refuted that hideous accusation and yet you are asking PK to prove it again.

 

We are confused to say the least about your methods of debating. To us you seem someone who uses cheap shots and who runs from one post to another. Cheap shots are nothing but cheap and used by people when they are insincere and have nothing to say to advance their cause. Well since this seems to be the case we are out of the debate and you are free to continue with your bashing. We are sure there will be a lot of people who appreciate what you are doing. But don’t call your post honest, educational debates, since they are anything but that. We are out of the debate forever and enjoy your bashing.

[Nur]

Fyneman

 

The Chinese have a saying :

 

" When two men argue, the first one who gets mad or quits is wrong"

 

I Was patient with you eventhough you changed roles, played a neutral role, then finally got mad when you can not produce any substantial evidence to refute that you Shia followers trully accept the Quraan to be complete>.

 

Do you deny that the Shia believe that ONLY THE IMAMS know the Quraan?

 

Do you deny that Shia believe that Sunnis removed the verses of Imaamah and all reference to Imaam concept from Quraan?

 

Do you deny that Shia believe the Concept of Rajcah, which says that when the Mahdi comes, all the dead Shia will come back alive to get revenge from Sunnis who killed them?

 

Do you deny that Concept of Tuqya is used against Sunnis to mislead them about the true concepts of the Shia?

 

Do you deny that Shia believe that the Imaams are infallible, Macsuum, what they say is 100% correct and anyone who does not follow them to be a Kuffar?

 

 

Brother, Come back to Sunnah Way.

 

 

Nur

[OG_Girl]

Loool. Nur did I tell you before that you should try to work as a comedian, you may make more money!!!.

 

He answered all your questions but as Somali you have too much pride and don't want to admit that you know nothing about Shia and again you painting us as a kufar. Listen my friend we are moslims and we don't need prove from you to make us moslims.Yes we are different that doesn't make us Kufars.

 

You saying educational?? what kind of education you teaching your students here? you want teach them OG_Girl, mutakalam and maybe vicking are kufars , because I don't see any other shia here? do we need to divide our selves more we are divided as a nation?

why you refusing (if you are good moslim as you claiming) to start what we are in common instead of starting we are kafers?

 

My friend you just want to divide us and create hate between us and Sunnah , Alhamdullah I wont hate Sunnah because of you, I have Sunnah relatives and we respect each other.As some one stated Sunah and shi'a live in Iraq , kuwait Iran ,Lebanon side by side supporting each other . Allah only can judge. instead lebeling us as kufar why you don't study Shia and learn ?

 

I am just pissed off when u pray and fast go to Haj and you are moslim generation after generation and some one like you comes lebel people as a kufar!!!!!

 

You said relax ,don't expect from me to relax when you have no clue what we belief and again have nerve to call us none moslims!

 

All you doing is jumping from thread to thread from one debator to another!!, calm down from your high horse and stop calling us Kufar... If you want to debate our defferences that is all good BUT with this attitude you are not moslim or prove otherwise wont get us no where.

 

PS Sorry if I offended you, but remember you called us Kufars which is worse thing to call some one who is a moslim.

 

Salam

[Salafi_Online]

Innalhamdulillah---> Surely Allah praises belongs to Alalh

 

OG_Girl is Shia?!? :eek:

[Viking]

Nur,

This thread has taken a weird twist; you initiated it but you are now chosing who to adress and who to ignore. There's a Chinese saying by K'ung Futzu that states... A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. There are no scholars here, so you have to take what you are getting from the others, even though it might not be the "structured" discussion you were bracing yourself for.

 

Be more humble instead of throwing remarks like... "Brother, Come back to Sunnah Way", making your opponent look like some lost soul in limbo that you are trying to retract. If that is your intention, do it in a less patronising manner, maybe then the person will be willing to listen to you.

 

As for my beliefs, I see my self as a Muslim who is looking critically at the different tenets.

 

PS: I'm still waiting for your response to the issue of 'Abasa.

[Jumatatu]

Nur, You haved initiated this thread as being educational and presenting your proofs as to why you label the Shia's as kuffars (Istaqfurullah). Yet you have not produced an iota of proof to your accusations other than question the belief of those who confronted your notion. On whose authority do you call kuffars people who hold in thier heart the Towxiid.

Youd did not answer the questions leveled against you directly, you left this thread and opened a completely new one yet you had the audacity to write:

When two men argue, the first one who gets mad or quits is wrong"

So who did quit first..? :confused:

[Haddad]

Originally posted by Jumatatu:

Nur, You haved initiated this thread as being educational and presenting your proofs as to why you label the Shia's as kuffars (Istaqfurullah).

I haven't seen where Nur explicitly labeled the "Shia's as kuffars." I have come across such strategies of twisting what someone says in order to force being on the defensive. AFAIK, this discussion is over, and I respect Nur's silence.