Somalis in Somalia are the best!!

[Khayr]

I dedicate this one to Naden, the Liberterian

 

[Khalaf]

Asslaamu Alaykum,

 

man, some of you guys should write books. Deep! Like I said I have never been to Somalia, and I am not grateful to the “West†for the blessed life I have here in America, I am only grateful to Allah The Most Merciful. And even though I been here in US for most of my life, as I get older I love my people and the land of my forefathers more. I can’t explain, is it racism? I don’t know, but its good feeling to have something to call your own. My Pakistani friends, Arab friends each summer go back to their homeland and visit, but my homeland is unsafe I am told. We all agree on one thing that Somalia is and I quote “HORSE SHITâ€, we know the problems facing our people, and our native land, yet we talk sh*t and don’t do sh*t.

 

Judging from the forum on SOL, we are diverse group of people with various opinions, young, old, male, female, intellectuals and not so, the trend I have noticed is that we recognized and diagnosed the problems facing our community, whether it is the state of Somalia or the relationship between Farahs and Xalimos, but where is the action people, and the solutions?

[RendezVous]

The best..

 

 

What are you so angry about? Conditions in a country that you have no control over? Do what you can, pray for them, and channel your energies to a more useful end. There is death, destruction and devastation but there is also hope, progress and renewal. I don't like those who harp on the Triple D at the expense of everything else. Because in varying amounts some form of Triple D exists in all parts of the world. Downtown Eastside ring any bells?

Point blank,

Don't ever talk about comparing Somalia and say UK.I have NEVER known anything about modesty but still I am sure she talked of good intentions when she said, I have been to both lands, Somalia and Western and found out If only Somalia could have...

 

-the free universal health care system

-top class education system

-state of the art and modern infrastructure

-economy that provides jobs, invents and innovates.

-social mobility

 

you will never talk about running away from your country or living to see your children becoming prostitutes and gangs..Acudhka..By the way Modesty, feel free to talk about your country and your HOST country.You have been there both.Who else did..or did u hear from the media Osama is in Mogadishu..?

 

She really had a sense of Patriotism

[Naden]

ThePoint,

 

Our back and forth is at risk of becoming masturbatory and a little tedious. Nonetheless, I appreciate your pointing out lapses of argument that happen in a heated discussion. Here are a few more.

 

I think words are an important tool of communication and so I place a lot of value on specificity and clarity

 

Great. Where do you see in my statement that ‘we clearly see this aspect of recovery and its impact on Somalis differently’ as an ‘easy dismissal’ of your point and how does this point to a conundrum in the stats and my views on the desperate state of Somalis? Am I dismissing your view when I describe it as different? For a person who so values clarity and specificity, you need to read better and respond more accurately.

 

If you want to know what I think about the impact of Somalis returning and the economic impact of their investments, simply ask. Don’t deduce from a statement of disagreement and use it to discredit my argument that Somalia is in a miserable state based on the figures I used from the UNDP.

 

As to any implications of the phrase 'culture and faith so untainted by kafirism' - there are a number……But those are ones you draw - and were not elucidated or drawn out by the poster. The tone of this peice can best be described as gushing because it focused solely on positive aspects.

 

You see the post as focusing solely on positive aspects, I saw nothing positive. Is the implication I draw from the post illegitimate because it does not agree with yours? The sweeping and simplistic view of a ‘culture untainted by kafirism’, whatever that means, begs to be questioned and challenged. You are not challenging it or even responding to it because you see it as a perspective, a personal reflection that should not be held against the sister. That's fine.

 

Again, words are important. But characterizations like hellhole are really intemperate, inaccurate and unilluminating.

 

You used the word ‘hellhole’ in an earlier post and I gave what constitutes such as place in my world including a place where people flee in fear of life and limb, die in droves and are threatened with grave starvation. Was this intemperate? You took a part of my view (the fleeing), ignored the rest, and brought an asinine comparison with Mexico to challenge whether a fleeing Mexican and a fleeing Somali are in the same boat. The use of the word ‘hellhole’ to describe present day Somalia is your pet and a sticking point for you that you’re trying so hard to disprove. I believe my stats on infant mortality and hunger are illuminating in a discussion of hunger and poverty. Where are your concrete examples of ‘signs of recovery’ you falsely and liberally accused me of dismissing? I cannot dismiss something that was not substantiated. Now personal reflections I can shout at as I have done with the sister’s post, but I have not dismissed a missing argument.

 

From the quote I used - you only stated the fleeing aspect as the primary determinant of indicting the society in which it occurred.

 

Wrong. This is what I said in its entirety, you saw what you wanted to see to bring in the Mexico example: Hundreds of thousands ran away, hundreds of thousands more died, tens of thousands are dying now of hunger and disease, not to mention the hundreds who will venture out to the sea every few weeks and die there. That pretty much defines a hell-hole in my world. In all cases, you object to an indictment of a society you think I am doing, I believe I am commenting on a present state of affairs.

 

Your first paragraph posits little to argue about. But the question becomes: much of sub-saharan Africa registers similar stats - are they then all hellholes - the lot of them?

 

You are obviously troubled by the word hellhole. When I see these similar stats you allude to, in my world they are akin to living in a state of serious desperation. Subsaharan Africa has hideous AIDS rates, massive corruption and constant threats of widespread starvation. What I consider to be a hellhole I have explained several times, it’s clear that you don’t see it the same way.

 

Her point was that faith helps to create a life that is 'stress free' and faith helps to alleviate their 'frown..and depression'. And, again, this was her PERSEPECTIVE and OBSERVATION.

 

It is neither difficult to understand or to accept the sister’s perspective. As I may have stated earlier, it is not a rare view of life and I have run into many variations of these views. My responses are largely angry and directed at nearly everyone who espoused such views. I always wonder if people who think any life can be ‘stress free’ especially in the face of dire economic conditions are naturally naïve and incapable of seeing complexities or people unable to deal with the pain and suffering of others. In both cases, my blood boils at the simplicity of it all.

 

Isn't one allowed leeway and freedom with one's own perspective and observations? I just find the attack on her persepective rather strange. But, again, this was her persepective and observation. She, apparently, did not see much suffering. Must she post on something she did not observe and was not part of her perspective?

 

So you don’t think it was her person attacked in this thread, rather her perspective? Good. That she did not see any suffering while irksome is hers alone. In answer to your question, no one can tell another person to see the world a certain way. However, when she made large generalizations of Somalis in Somali and the West, some responded with suspicion. She can sing her perspective up and down and people can voice their suspicions and disagreements as well.

 

The post does not say that hunger, stress, and depression do not exist. The post is confined to a particular perspective.

 

The post speaks of a stress-free life. Being free of something means it does not occur there. True, she did say hunger existed and no one claimed that she said otherwise. It is the reflection of the mental state of hungry people that caused the disagreement.

 

If you take it upon yourself to digress from the original post and launch into a discussion about the numerous ills affecting Somalia - then that is another thread altogether and is definitely off-topic

 

That’s your opinion and you can raise your objections all you want. You do not set the parameters of a discussion and talking about social ills affecting Somalia when the issue of hungry Somalis comes up is not off-topic. A narrower discussion may be to your liking but the chance to discuss any relevant factors are open to people in the thread, and this includes Brother Khayr’s single-syllabic comments.

 

What is so bizarre and intolerable about one positing her perspective? Or must the perspective posted conform to your pre-conceived notions?

 

It is not bizarre or intolerable but object to suspicion and debate.

 

The dismissing and degrading of individual perspective is trite and superficial in itself!........And the hostile and dismissive tone I found too much also………..the nasty tone and dismissive content were what bothered me.

 

Okay. You find my tone, use of language and other tools bothersome. I can take that, I’m a big girl. I reserve shouting for what I perceive to be lazy and deceptive ideas and I reply as such. I do try not to be dismissive or degrading of any ideas, but to be challenging. If that means turning on the bullshit meter and calling it as such, so be it.

 

The rigour of your argument decides the legitimacy of it - for the intelligent and unbiased person.

 

Fair enough. My arguments maybe pessimistic but I backed them up with statistics and personal examples. The sister waxed poetic about her reflections and you posted counter arguments including an unfollowed-through comparison between countries and an unsubstantiated claim of signs of recovery leading to an improvement. You have not supported this claim yet you accused me of dismissing it easily. You’re obviously a man/woman who values a rigorous argument that is well supported with examples. Perhaps the intelligent and unbiased person in you can apply the same rigour to your arguments.

[Valenteenah.]

Originally posted by Khayr:

I dedicate this one to Naden, the Liberterian

 

LoL...Seems like Naden has an admirer. Naden, you lucky cow, you.

[Castro]

^ And where have you been hiding?

 

Originally posted by naden:

ThePoint,

 

Our

back and forth

is at risk of becoming

masturbatory

and a little tedious.

I knew you two were up to no good. Good job guys. A lot of people were enjoying your "back and forth" and I'm one of them.

[Naden]

Originally posted by Ahura:

LoL...Seems like

Naden

has an admirer.

Naden

, you

lucky

cow, you.

[/QB]

I treat brother Khayr's jabs as friendship signs (like punches in an elementary schoolyard). I know he has a crush on me, looking all sexy and wanton in his mullah garb.

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by naden:

 

Our back and forth is at risk of becoming masturbatory and a little tedious. Nonetheless, I appreciate your pointing out lapses of argument that escape in a heated discussion. Here are a few more.

Whoa there! Not the way I perceived it. Yes, it is a little tedious having to write paragraphs and paragraphs - but I never give up - even when it is a lost cause sometimes. A weakness of mine - hopefully this debate isn't a lost cause.

 

 

Great. Where do you see in my statement that ‘we clearly see this aspect of recovery and its impact on Somalis differently’ as an ‘easy dismissal’ of your point and how does this point to a conundrum in the stats and my views on the desperate state of Somalis? Am I dismissing your view when I describe it as different? For a person who so values clarity and specificity, you need to read better and respond more accurately.

The conundrum is this: Why are ppl returning to, investing in and building up a country that is a hellhole? That was the conundrum. However, since hellhole is my word - I shouldn't burden you with its characterizations vis-a-vis Somalia. You are dimissing my view that things are improving, albeit slowly, by not addressing that aspect and simply harping on the UNDP stats.

 

Don’t deduce from a statement of disagreement and use it to discredit my argument that Somalia is in a miserable state based on the figures I used from the UNDP.

Are you seriously disagreeing that there has been progress in the past 10 years in Somalia and are you serious that you would like evidence to back that up? Look, the UNDP stats are relatively indisputable and I accept those but the poster was commenting on positive aspects in the country. Can you accept those positive things? Or is everything doom and gloom, no light at the end of the tunnel? When I say you dismiss the progress/renewal agrument - I say it because you simply wave it away and fail to address it. Almost as if it was non-existent.

 

 

You see the post as focusing solely on positive aspects, I saw nothing positive. Is the implication I draw from the post illegitimate because it does not agree with yours? The sweeping and simplistic view of a ‘culture untainted by kafirism’, whatever that means, begs to be questioned and challenged. You are not challenging it or even responding to it because you see it as a perspective, a personal reflection that should not be held against the sister. That's fine.

The post: (paraphrased) - things are good here, ppl hungry but relying on faith, good and polite ppl, really enjoying the place. It seems to me all of those things are indisputably(?) positive. Sweeping and simplistic? - I don't know where you get sweeping from since she was commenting on where she was and what she saw. Simplistic? Why because it is not a complete perspective - that is the peroragative of a perspective - it doesn't have to be complete.

 

Again, words are important. But characterizations like hellhole are really intemperate, inaccurate and unilluminating.

 

You used the word ‘hellhole’ in an earlier post and I gave what constitutes such as place in my world including a place where people flee in fear of life and limb, die in droves and are threatened with grave starvation. Was this intemperate? You took a part of my view (the fleeing), ignored the rest, and brought an asinine comparison with Mexico to challenge whether a fleeing Mexican and a fleeing Somali are in the same boat. The use of the word ‘hellhole’ to describe present day Somalia is your pet and a sticking point for you that you’re trying so hard to disprove.

OK - let's get a reality check. Are ppl fleeing for life and limb in Somalia right now? No - for the most part those fleeing are going for a better life - You can't get on the boat departing Bosaasso unless you have hard currency. Are ppl dying in droves right now? Not that I know of - millions are at the risk of starvation as the NGOs keep reminding us - but we have little evidence that thousands have even died in the current situation. Are ppl threatened with starvation right now? Yes - from all evidence it would appear so. So that's 1 for 3. No one is disputing that the situation is bad. The question keeps coming back to - can you accept that this particular poster saw positives for the most part? And if yes, then of course you can say - 'but sister, there are a lot of problems etc.' That is all I am asking of you. Is that really such an unreasonable position?

 

Ok - set aside the hellhole reference - that was my word. From your post 97 dated March 5 2006, 17:59 - all you mentioned was:

 

"She was proselytizing about the purity and wonders of Somalia when everyone knows the hundreds of thousands who ran with their tail between their legs know how desolate it is."

 

Given that was all you said in this particular post - I thought it was legitimate to equate fleeing with desolation(and my word hellhole) and thus come up with the Mexico equivalent. Perhaps, I was being a little too harsh on you by simply using that one reference but it was important for you to differentiate and not simply make a reference to fleeing as the indictment. Whatever - this point has been beaten to death.

 

I believe my stats on infant mortality and hunger are illuminating in a discussion of hunger and poverty. Where are your concrete examples of ‘signs of recovery’ you falsely and liberally accused me of dismissing? I cannot dismiss something that was not substantiated. Now personal reflections I can shout at as I have done with the sister’s post, but I have not dismissed a missing argument.

They certainly are: but this wasn't a discussion on infant mortality or hunger. At least not initally. When you don't address something that is integral to an argument - you necessarily dismiss it. Now, are you saying that you know of no signs of recovery and you would like me to substantiate? Ok - I will do so. The argument is there - I didn't provide evidence since I(erroneously) thought all were familiar with the hopeful signs in Somalia.

 

You are obviously troubled by the word hellhole. When I see these similar stats you allude to, in my world they are akin to living in a state of serious desperation. Subsaharan Africa has hideous AIDS rates, massive corruption and constant threats of widespread starvation. What I consider to be a hellhole I have explained several times, it’s clear that you don’t see it the same way.

Hellhole definition has become hell, for want of a better word, in this debate so I'll move on from that. Such stats indicate a really bad situation - however, and I guess this is semantics, hellhole is too sweeping. I think it is over-the top. C'est tout. I can tell you the warlords don't believe their condition is a hellhole.

 

 

It is neither difficult to understand or to accept the sister’s perspective. As I may have stated earlier, it is not a rare view of life and I have run into many variations of these views. My responses are largely angry and directed at nearly everyone who espoused such views. I always wonder if people who think any life can be ‘stress free’ especially in the face of dire economic conditions are naturally naïve and incapable of seeing complexities or people unable to deal with the pain and suffering of others. In both cases, my blood boils at the simplicity of it all.

I found this paragraph the most interesting of all. What are you angry about? That someone can even comment on positives when the overall picture is negative? I like nuance and differentiation - there is a lot of gray in the world. What is wrong with that? At the end of the day, almost no life is stress free. But there are gradations of stress and when faced with a basic subsistence lifestyle where you can scratch out a living or the complexities of our current lifestyle - many people would say that the former incurs less stress. They could be mistaken. But hey that is a perspective. It is not simplisitic to say that some in Somalia have a stress-free life as compared us in the western world. They are not generalizing for everybody or imposing that fact on all - the only one doing that is you. And I can't figure out why.

 

 

So you don’t think it was her person attacked in this thread, rather her perspective? Good. That she did not see any suffering while irksome is hers alone. In answer to your question, no one can tell another person to see the world a certain way. However, when she made large generalizations of Somalis in Somali and the West, some responded with suspicion. She can sing her perspective up and down and people can voice their suspicions and disagreements as well.

I believed you attacked both her person and perspective but more so on the latter. She did not make generalizations - you have no proof there. She commented on what she observed. You can disagree to the extent that the perspective is not complete - but suspicions? Why? - she is going on SOL to lie about what she saw? Anyone holding that belief is wierd.

 

The post does not say that hunger, stress, and depression do not exist. The post is confined to a particular perspective.

 

The post speaks of a stress-free life. Being free of something means it does not occur there. True, she did say hunger existed and no one claimed that she said otherwise. It is the reflection of the mental state of hungry people that caused the disagreement.

Again, a stress free life for those individuals in the city/town she saw. The rest you are imputing or assuming(wrongly). Are you saying that some hungry ppl do not have a strong mental state that allows them to persevere in the face of hunger? That is what the poster was saying and from all I know - many Somalis are like that. Questioned from a different angle - is everyone who is hungry stressed out and troubled in your book? I don't buy that - it's a generalization.

 

 

That’s your opinion and you can raise your objections all you want. You do not set the parameters of a discussion and talking about social ills affecting Somalia when the issue of hungry Somalis comes up is not off-topic. A narrower discussion may be to your liking but the chance to discuss any relevant factors are open to people in the thread, and this includes Brother Khayr’s single-syllabic comments.

The issue was a perspective - a positive one. Agree/disagree, or state that it is incomplete. You are right - the parameters of the discussion are not set by me. They are set by the participating individuals who wish to elucidate ideas and try to come to a consensus. Now it seems to me, all of your posts go to say one thing - (paraphrased) you are a deluded sister, Somalia is a catastrophe, how dare you mention positives that you saw. Now, parts of this are legitimate but in response to a persepective this is off-topic. CLEARLY!

 

What is so bizarre and intolerable about one positing her perspective? Or must the perspective posted conform to your pre-conceived notions?

 

It is not bizarre or intolerable but object to suspicion and debate.

I don't understand your response here.

 

 

Okay. You find my tone, use of language and other tools bothersome. I can take that, I’m a big girl. I reserve shouting for what I perceive to be lazy and deceptive ideas and I reply as such. I do try not to be dismissive or degrading of any ideas, but to be challenging. If that means turning on the bullshit meter and calling it as such, so be it.

But wait a second! It's a perspective. There are no lazy or deceptive ideas. It is simply the result of limited observation. I will tell you one thing - I like ppl who challenge others. I think it lets you expand your mind, sharpen your arguments and really know what you are talking about with depth. I don't like ppl who use a hostile and belittling tone - I think it's disrespectful and additionally, it only results in defensiveness and insult trading. And not in the original goal of challenging.

 

 

Fair enough. My arguments maybe pessimistic but I backed them up with statistics and personal examples. The sister waxed poetic about her reflections and you posted counter arguments including an unfollowed-through comparison between countries and an unsubstantiated claim of signs of recovery leading to an improvement. You have not supported this claim yet you accused me of dismissing it easily. You’re obviously a man/woman who values a rigorous argument that is well supported with examples. Perhaps the intelligent and unbiased person in you can apply the same rigour to your arguments.

Well - the sister certainly waxed poetic - no doubt there. But you attacked her and her perspective - which I thought was crossing the line. As to the pessimism - certainly some pessimism is in order but to argue that pessimism is all there is when an eyewitness individual is claiming otherwise is a bit much. As to the claim of progress and renewal - I will post numerous sources either later on tonight or tomorrow.

 

Since you like challenges - I will offer you one. In a maximum of 2 (short!) paragraphs - tell me what it is that you object to in my posts and what it is you would like me to do or write. And I will do the same. Perhaps, a straightforward resolution is in sight.

 

PS - ThePoint = Male

[Naden]

Questioned from a different angle - is everyone who is hungry stressed out and troubled in your book? I don't buy that

 

Okay, this has reached the point of tedium for me. I thought we were closer in opinion to the fundamental issues than this but I'm afraid that is not the case. For me, the answer to the question is quite simply yes.

 

As to the claim of progress and renewal - I will post numerous sources either later on tonight or tomorrow.

 

That's fine. I've said all that I was going to say about this topic but I do look forward to your examples on progress, it would certainly be a breath of fresh air.

[Blessed]

Castro.

 

Maybe next year, I don't know, depends. Why d’ya ask?

 

 

P.S

I don't do bacaad fighting. I might break a nail

[Castro]

Break a nail kulaha. Some Burcaawi you are.

 

I was just wondering. I've not been in Somalia since 1989 and frankly I'm afraid to go. It's going to be quite traumatic I'm sure. Is there any documentary out there of life in Somalia now? You know, a multi-city, cross-section of society type interviews on life, living it and dying from it. I wonder.

[Naden]

Check out a documentary shot in Mogadishu maybe 2003 or 2004 (not sure) by these folks. It was televised by CBC and it talked about a radio station and its 2 Canadian operators: HornAfrik.

 

Originally posted by Castro:

Is there any documentary out there of life in Somalia now? You know, a multi-city, cross-section of society type interviews on life, living it and dying from it. I wonder.

[Jacpher]

aryaara Guwaaci yow galyaa?

 

Documentary ma ku dhahaayoo. Waryee time for doqon celis. Apart from gashaantida, anyone wishes in wadankii mapka laga tirtiro? I didn't think so. Ara boowe qarbiga laga reysay, cooska jilaal waa lama huraan.

[STOIC]

Hooray for Naden.Castro,the documentary mentioned by Naden is a good one.The documentary sheds some light on a typical Mogadishu/North American life.I watched the documentary last year in My school's African studies institute.I was disapointed to watch little kids having no families to turn to, or an equalizer like an education, and good health care.We must all be thankful to Allah for blessing us with the western life.

[RendezVous]

Originally posted by naden:

ThePoint,

 

Our back and forth is at risk of becoming masturbatory and a little tedious. Nonetheless, I appreciate your pointing out lapses of argument that happen in a heated discussion. Here are a few more.

 

I think words are an important tool of communication and so I place a lot of value on specificity and clarity

 

Great. Where do you see in my statement that ‘we clearly see this aspect of recovery and its impact on Somalis differently’ as an ‘easy dismissal’ of your point and how does this point to a conundrum in the stats and my views on the desperate state of Somalis? Am I dismissing your view when I describe it as different? For a person who so values clarity and specificity, you need to read better and respond more accurately.

 

If you want to know what I think about the impact of Somalis returning and the economic impact of their investments, simply ask. Don’t deduce from a statement of disagreement and use it to discredit my argument that Somalia is in a miserable state based on the figures I used from the UNDP.

 

As to any implications of the phrase 'culture and faith so untainted by kafirism' - there are a number……But those are ones you draw - and were not elucidated or drawn out by the poster. The tone of this peice can best be described as gushing because it focused solely on positive aspects.

 

You see the post as focusing solely on positive aspects, I saw nothing positive. Is the implication I draw from the post illegitimate because it does not agree with yours? The sweeping and simplistic view of a ‘culture untainted by kafirism’, whatever that means, begs to be questioned and challenged. You are not challenging it or even responding to it because you see it as a perspective, a personal reflection that should not be held against the sister. That's fine.

 

Again, words are important. But characterizations like hellhole are really intemperate, inaccurate and unilluminating.

 

You used the word ‘hellhole’ in an earlier post and I gave what constitutes such as place in my world including a place where people flee in fear of life and limb, die in droves and are threatened with grave starvation. Was this intemperate? You took a part of my view (the fleeing), ignored the rest, and brought an asinine comparison with Mexico to challenge whether a fleeing Mexican and a fleeing Somali are in the same boat. The use of the word ‘hellhole’ to describe present day Somalia is your pet and a sticking point for you that you’re trying so hard to disprove. I believe my stats on infant mortality and hunger are illuminating in a discussion of hunger and poverty. Where are your concrete examples of ‘signs of recovery’ you falsely and liberally accused me of dismissing? I cannot dismiss something that was not substantiated. Now personal reflections I can shout at as I have done with the sister’s post, but I have not dismissed a missing argument.

 

From the quote I used - you only stated the fleeing aspect as the primary determinant of indicting the society in which it occurred.

 

Wrong. This is what I said in its entirety, you saw what you wanted to see to bring in the Mexico example: Hundreds of thousands ran away, hundreds of thousands more died, tens of thousands are dying now of hunger and disease, not to mention the hundreds who will venture out to the sea every few weeks and die there. That pretty much defines a hell-hole in my world. In all cases, you object to an indictment of a society you think I am doing, I believe I am commenting on a present state of affairs.

 

Your first paragraph posits little to argue about. But the question becomes: much of sub-saharan Africa registers similar stats - are they then all hellholes - the lot of them?

 

You are obviously troubled by the word hellhole. When I see these similar stats you allude to, in my world they are akin to living in a state of serious desperation. Subsaharan Africa has hideous AIDS rates, massive corruption and constant threats of widespread starvation. What I consider to be a hellhole I have explained several times, it’s clear that you don’t see it the same way.

 

Her point was that faith helps to create a life that is 'stress free' and faith helps to alleviate their 'frown..and depression'. And, again, this was her PERSEPECTIVE and OBSERVATION.

 

It is neither difficult to understand or to accept the sister’s perspective. As I may have stated earlier, it is not a rare view of life and I have run into many variations of these views. My responses are largely angry and directed at nearly everyone who espoused such views. I always wonder if people who think any life can be ‘stress free’ especially in the face of dire economic conditions are naturally naïve and incapable of seeing complexities or people unable to deal with the pain and suffering of others. In both cases, my blood boils at the simplicity of it all.

 

Isn't one allowed leeway and freedom with one's own perspective and observations? I just find the attack on her persepective rather strange. But, again, this was her persepective and observation. She, apparently, did not see much suffering. Must she post on something she did not observe and was not part of her perspective?

 

So you don’t think it was her person attacked in this thread, rather her perspective? Good. That she did not see any suffering while irksome is hers alone. In answer to your question, no one can tell another person to see the world a certain way. However, when she made large generalizations of Somalis in Somali and the West, some responded with suspicion. She can sing her perspective up and down and people can voice their suspicions and disagreements as well.

 

The post does not say that hunger, stress, and depression do not exist. The post is confined to a particular perspective.

 

The post speaks of a stress-free life. Being free of something means it does not occur there. True, she did say hunger existed and no one claimed that she said otherwise. It is the reflection of the mental state of hungry people that caused the disagreement.

 

If you take it upon yourself to digress from the original post and launch into a discussion about the numerous ills affecting Somalia - then that is another thread altogether and is definitely off-topic

 

That’s your opinion and you can raise your objections all you want. You do not set the parameters of a discussion and talking about social ills affecting Somalia when the issue of hungry Somalis comes up is not off-topic. A narrower discussion may be to your liking but the chance to discuss any relevant factors are open to people in the thread, and this includes Brother Khayr’s single-syllabic comments.

 

What is so bizarre and intolerable about one positing her perspective? Or must the perspective posted conform to your pre-conceived notions?

 

It is not bizarre or intolerable but object to suspicion and debate.

 

The dismissing and degrading of individual perspective is trite and superficial in itself!........And the hostile and dismissive tone I found too much also………..the nasty tone and dismissive content were what bothered me.

 

Okay. You find my tone, use of language and other tools bothersome. I can take that, I’m a big girl. I reserve shouting for what I perceive to be lazy and deceptive ideas and I reply as such. I do try not to be dismissive or degrading of any ideas, but to be challenging. If that means turning on the bullshit meter and calling it as such, so be it.

 

The rigour of your argument decides the legitimacy of it - for the intelligent and unbiased person.

 

Fair enough. My arguments maybe pessimistic but I backed them up with statistics and personal examples. The sister waxed poetic about her reflections and you posted counter arguments including an unfollowed-through comparison between countries and an unsubstantiated claim of signs of recovery leading to an improvement. You have not supported this claim yet you accused me of dismissing it easily. You’re obviously a man/woman who values a rigorous argument that is well supported with examples. Perhaps the intelligent and unbiased person in you can apply the same rigour to your arguments.

I ask, who contributed to Somalia being the way it is, where ordinary somalis like you can't dream going to, it was lucky Mod is there safe, where it seems, ordinary somalis are scared to death.Maiming of ordinary citizens.Atleast the Sheikhs stopped crimes by 40% ...Men used to harass women, But the Sheikhs introduced strict respect for women.We, the somali youth in diaspora, must try to shun tribalism, nepotism, clan rivalvies and so on.You should explain to your family why you need to see

 

Somalia with:

-a free universal health care system

-a top class education system

-a state of the art and modern infrastructure

-an economy that provides jobs, invents and innovates.

-social mobility than writing so much for less.

 

Some of us don't even have the time to write to impress(No pun intended)

, we ONLY substitute by action..