Originally posted by Sky: Beautiful region Awdal is, Masha Allah Yup. Yup. Yup. Nice pics Fry.

Our cause? hehe. Iga fagow yarow!

Maxaa i haysta. Ma anigaa wax fahmeyn mise waxbaa u dhiman dadkan iga soo hor jeeda? Its Ramadan and compassion is in the air (even for unscrupulous beings ) so I’ll keep it precise. We basically have two issues here: 1] The permissibility of habaar on non-muslims and evildoers. A fatwa was posted by Rahima to support Alle-u-baahne’s vile habaar that: (i) Does not give evidence its acceptable in general to curse or insult non-muslims, just a ‘Ibn Muflih said in al-Adaab al-Shar’iyyah’. Ibn Muflih? As a wee toddler, one of the 1st things I was thought about Islam was that habaar was bad. Period. Infact, in suuratal Baqarah, I come across this verse, [2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve. I don’t know how this fits in with the understanding between you two that its acceptable to insult and curse dad gaaloo wax kuu dhimin. Everything that I read and learn seems to go against your understanding of it. Laakiin there for hope, I'm still learning . (ii) There is CLEAR evidence that habaar towards any specific person (let alone a Muslim) is not permissible. I cant blv that I’ve to spell it out like this again… its right there. There is really nothing to weigh and there is no evidence in th fatwa to support the last hypothesis while there is clear ayah and hadeeth to support the 1st. 2] Whether Rahima and Alle-u-baahne are in a position to label Mr.Goth an apostate/evildoer and if he is one I’m not interested in supporting Mr. Goth’s position in general. But let me make something clear. No amount of habaar, out-of-context rebuttals, righteousness, self-styled wadaadnimo, appeals to the emotions of Muslims, insults, labeling etc, will make Mr.Goth a kaafir or an evildoer because some1 on this board said so. While I clearly understand the argument that some people cannot continue to call themselves muslims after their attacks on Islam (Rushdie, Irshad, etc), Mr.Goth doesn’t fall into that category judging from his articles. Bashir Goth, like any other muslim and human being has faults. Its not my place here to defend his wrongs. However, I dont think this article is license to insult/curse/brand him and claim its sanctioned by diinta. Rahima or Alle-u-baahne are not scholars (by their own admission) and are not in a position to label any1 or say so. Its also contradictory to write ‘none of us are in a position to call the man an apostate’ in one hand while on the other finding it fitting and acceptable to brand some1 an ‘evildoer’. In the end, any fatwa is a sorry excuse for commonsense and humane decency. We really need not have gone this far. And talking of commonsense (and on a lighter note ), *trying to shock Alle-u-baahne* there was this article by Bashir Goth that made me chuckle… Is it possible he could be talking to you Mr.Alle-u-baahne? Click Here . Taqwa, I don’t know waxaad igu haysato aniga. I only asked a genuine Q concerning the topic since you decided to comment on it.

I don’t know why the exchanges between Aeron and Taqwa were deleted. Its customary that these two greet each other that way whenever their paths cross. These new mods are really no-funners! Stop being too eager and enjoy 'the jaariyad knocking the wet blanket from his high horse' :mad: Ducaqabe, maya walaalo. I was just pointing out the polite way you were addressed by Mr.Alle-u-baahne although you practically agreed with me. Its just his tone… there is a slight distinction in the way he addresses some people..ahem..the "liberals" he calls them.. ... and MacaSalaama

I hope you have all donated and I'm not just reading empty sympathies. . . . . Ok, I dont mean to be harsh. But please donate anywhere...anything (clothes, other amenities).

Welcome guys. Dont get too comfortable tho, we mite not really like you..

Rahima, Nevertheless, either way, irrespective of whether or not this man is a Muslim, there seems to be argument for the cursing of evildoers also (which it seems that it is unanimously agreed upon that this man is); hence Alle-ubaahne could possibly have grounds for support. This is not going by our opinions, but rather what the scholars have stated. From denouncing his diin to implying he is an Evildoer. Oh Rahima… all this in the midst of ‘I don’t know anything about him’ and ‘If he says that he is Muslim, then certainly none of us here is in a position to dispute that’. And what unanimity are you referring to? Who are these ‘scholars’ or ‘learned people’ who explicitly stated Bashir Goth is an evildoer? How did they come to that conclusion? I really don’t see how or where Alle-u-baahne has support or ‘legitimate’ backup except in you. Besides, there is only one judge and thats Allah swt and no amount of 'scholarly fatwa' can make any1 an 'apostate' or 'evildoer' if they say they are muslim. Regarding your Q n A (this is entirely a different area) What is the ruling on cursing (and not just insulting) the Jews and Christians or other groups, whether living or dead? May Allaah reward you with good. I have come across dua that state ‘Allaahu halik al-kufaar wal mushrikiin ’ or ‘Ya Rabi ansurna minal qoom al-kaarifiin ’ and I have understood this to refer to the enemies of Islam and not everyone who is a non-muslim. Also, its dua to ask God in uu naga sareysiiyo dadkaas more than in uu baabiyo. In anycase, I don’t know why any1 would ask such a Q or would want to insult and curse anyone. When it comes to debating or inviting others to the religion, the holy Quran states [16:125] You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones. And isn’t that the best way? And to the others, the Quran states: [109:1] Say, "O you disbelievers. [109:2] "I do not worship what you worship. [109:3] "Nor do you worship what I worship. [109:4] "Nor will I ever worship what you worship. [109:5] "Nor will you ever worship what I worship. [109:6] "To you is your religion, and to me is my religion." And so it should remain with no halaag iyo habaar. Isn’t it hypocrisy to insinuate that its OK to insult and curse gaalada while in the same vain foaming at the mouth at the slightest infraction against Islam? (generally) To curse some1 or a group of people is wish death on them. By logical extension, this means you wish to see them die in the worst possible way and you draw satisfaction from seeing it happen (as you wished for this). The ‘general curse’ that is ‘permitted’ and this death wish doesn’t discriminate so its obviously not aimed at people who are maiming the religion or Muslims but simply those whose only crime was not being Muslim. I don’t know what to call this attitude but I do not subscribe to an Islam that advocates and validates this. Feel free to correct me if I misunderstood the intent and purpose of the Q&A. Taqwa, I think his comments were highly inappropriate and by my standards deserve to be deleted. So overlooking his faults is not a problem for me, I’ve born the brunt of his impudence personally and have moved on from it. What worries me is how religion is conveniently and indifferently used to back it up. What do you make of his habaar? Do you think it fitting? Alle-u-baahne, while I think you made your objection well (without the usual fire-n-brimstone attack), the way you put forward your argument and the conclusions you arrived at are your opinions and yours alone. Lets not try and pass them off as conclusive proof that Mr.Goth is an apostate/evildoer. Because its not. Secondly, I’ve clearly stated that I do not agree with Mr.Goth’s opinion in this article (neither has any1 else for that matter, the issue is simply your habaar). Infact, having read his website, there is a general theme of an obsession with Wahabism and the kingdom of Saudi Arabia to the point it blinds him to the xikma behind some important Islamic principles like the hijab. He is entitled to hold whatever opinion in the former case (and he has very good arguments that I agree with. I do not want Somalia/Land to turn into KSA where our kids are given distinct Arabic names and our beautiful traditions, culture and uniqueness thrown out the window) while the latter should be refuted – in an appropriate, civil manner befitting a Muslim. Otherwise, you’re no better Ilaahay swt wax xun, habaar iyo dhibaato adna lama weydiisto adoomaha Ilaahayna looma weydiiyo. Ilaahay wax fiican baa la weydiistaa, qofkii habowsan ama jidka toosan siraadal-mustaqiinka ka beydhsan, lama habaare waa loo duceeyaa. Ilaahay ma abuurin ‘revenge’, wuxuu abuurey danbidhaaf iyo iimaan saadiq ah. Alle-u-baahnoow waxa kuu rooneyd in aad tidhaahdo ‘Ilaahayow soo hadee bashiir goth, oo diinta dhinaca kheyrku ku jiro ee sidii Ilaahay nafarey ku jirto u fududee’.

p.s. Alle-U-Baahne, I dont have anything against you personally or even doubt your intentions - just your tone and attitude sometimes and I hope you realize that. I wish you have a gr8 Ramadan and come back with more sabr and raxmah.

Defeding my religion is inappropriate! My curse towards Bashir Goth was hateful! And, togather my inappropriate style of delivering the curse, the curse itself, as well as me, personally are all disgusting! Ironically, you’re right on all accounts mate. Lets examine your ‘defence’ Walaahi you uncovered the real intentions of the Marqaan-weyne , the loser, and the worst example of a fading out sufi. Ilaahayoow waxaan marqaati ka ahay inaad naxariis badan tahay, oo naxariistaada ay ka qaalib noqotay carradaada. Kaas diinta ku aflagaadooday muxuu dhaamaa hadda kuwii nabiga (scw) dhibi jiray, sida Abuu Lahab? Bashir Godoow, Naarta Jahanamo Salkeeda ku waar, ilaah aan ka baryee! Oo afka aad diinteena iyo dumarkeena ku caaysay, masiibo dagdag ah ilaah haka soo saaro! Now Mr.Alle-U-Baahne, where have you ‘defended’ your religion? Have you actually given us reasons as to why you object to Mr.Bashir Goth’s article? NO. Therefore your ‘defence’ is inappropriate (erm..non-existent?). Secondly, your curse is more than hateful. It sounds demonic too. And lastly, your ‘style’ and ‘curse’ are…. something approaching revulsion. Heh… did I just repeat myself? Moving on… Brother, you neither raised any ‘reasonable objections’ or brought a new dimension to this debate. If you want to defend your religion, do so like others have in this thread. Although the only two people who defended Islam against his unfounded arguments could not keep away from peddling in the lower levels of disrepute themselves, they atleast addressed the points in the article. I’m not defending Mr.Goth nor do I agree with his views, however his views were general and his comments concerned diinta. The only way to reply to this would be to go heads on against these views without any reference to the person themselves. That is called debating and a skill most Somalis have yet to learn (including myself). I dont like how some Muslims represent Islam. Their attitude is unprofessional, uncivilized and most of all somehow becomes cheap and less credible with all the underhanded, hate-filled ('dirty kuffar', 'die die cuz ur not a muslim' undertone! :rolleyes: ) comments. I want people who speak for my religion to have integrity, rationale and understand their opponents. I want them to make sense to me and the next gaal in the same manner ( the operative word is ‘sense’, not acceptable). Islam has always been a reasonable religion and it annoys me when its constantly being paraded as hateful and intolerant. To be honest with you bro, and its Ramadan, I always feel like my ‘Imaan’ increases when I keep away from Islam discussions on SOL and absolutely ignore people who argue like you and think of you as ….. well… not my ideal Muslim. You come across as (not are) judgmental, angry, hateful, intolerant of differing views and irrational… not traits of a good Muslim, wouldn’t u say? We live in a global village, you cant sell your ideas with that attitude. In general on SOL, we always tend to focus on the unimportant aspects of diinta while the most important are either trivialized or not discussed at all. We like to discuss polygamy in great lengths, worry about the intentions of the posters (Oh how I miss the good old days of SOL where we were all equal Muslims with no1 addressed like they r more pious – eg. How you responded to Ducaqabe who agreed with me) or force-feed people with hadeeth accompanied by no explanation/elaboration. Anyways, I need a boost and I’m keeping off till the end of the month (and maybe for good from these topics). Salaamaat.

Originally posted by Rahima: The hadith you provided specifies that it is for Muslims ( "any person among Muslims upon whom"), so going by that the permissibility of the brothers curse is dependant on whether or not Bashir Gothe is a Muslim. Bashir Goth is a muslim as far as I know. I've not read anywhere he proclaimed otherwise. His points of view and what it is to be a muslim doesn't have to fine-tune with yours, mine or any1 else on this forum. What is expected of us is either to correct what we see as wrong or to withhold any hateful comments. Therefore, Mr.Alle-u-baahne(what an apt name!) deserves to have his post deleted (IMHO)! Its inappropriate, hateful and disgusting.

Originally posted by Young Jeezy: It would have been better if it hit Delhi. Ilaahayow caqliga iyo naxariista ha naga qaadin.

Infact there are many other ways to find solutions as opposed to be showing extreme panic, selfhate and insane reactionaries. See, the self-hate, extreme panic and insane reactionaries are an expected reaction to trauma. So you need to show some of patience, perseverence and setting a good example for others to follow By not being counter-reactionary and calling people self-hating. Fahamt? A simple problem with a lot of Somalis is they fail to understand the other side of the story. You don’t have to condone or like something to understand it. As Raqid pointed out, you should read up on Post-traumatic stress disorder . Considering the events, tragedies and brutality that have happened in Somalia, this sort of reaction is normal and will effect some of the people. If it eases your pain and disappointment, its not restricted to Soomaalida. A lot of people who have had negative or traumatic past experiences suffer from extreme detachment with the cause of that experience. This heals over time and may eventually disappear with help, support and understanding. This is where Soomalidu fail miserably because every1 who doesn’t think right is a quack that should be locked up or made the subject of ridicule. My simple n quick reply...

Originally posted by Raqid: What specific things have you noticed that lead you to question him sxb? I know plenty of Somalis that cannot stand Somalia, because of the horrors they suffered in the civil war. Some of them have even denounced the religion and all who come down under simply because the people who were involved in the civil war against them claimed to be muslims. I have always dismissed it as a result of strong cases of Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome A friend of mine who works with the social services once had a Somali woman whose 4 children had to be re-housed because of her state and she insisted they be taken to non-somali and non-muslims... preferably Jewish. And my friend and the authorities had to comply. Its sad, but we are all shaped by our experiences in life and having heard the woman's story, I could understand where it all stemmed from.

Thanks Muhammed. That was helpful.

Thats just in the city. Emergency services have not reached the interior regions yet. It happened in the early hours of the morning...when most ppl were sleep or just starting schools/work. . SubxanaAllah. Ilaahay ha u naxariisto intii dhimatay, intii noolna ha u roonaado. This is so tragic. Nomads, Please pray for the ppl affected by this tragedy. Offer zakat this Ramadan for these Muslims.

Aamiin Juma. Ramadan Kariim to one and all. Have a great month everyone, full of barakah and forgiveness. Aamiin.

Here There

Its just laughable (the story and the paper) to be honest. I've a plastic pig too (got it for free from a fresher's fair) and it will stay where it is in my room. :rolleyes:

Theoretically, I would love to do all that & more. Realistically, I'm gonna fast everyday and read the Quran when I can. I dont think I can manage tarawiix at all. I'm really pressed for time this Ramadan. However, for those of you planning to read the whole Quran, I came across this little chart that fits around different schedules and will help you acheive your goal. Ideally, the goal is to read 20 pages and none right after aftur . Also, Duhur is difficult for most people as you may have other responsibilities. So: If you can read four pages after dhuhur: Fajir = 4 pages Duhur = 4 pages 3assir = 4 pages Maghrib = 0 pages 3isha = 8 pages If you can read two after Duhur prayer this will be your chart : Fajir = 4 pages Duhur = 2 pages 3assir = 6 pages Maghrib = 0 pages 3isha = 8 pages If you can't do any after duhur this will be your chart: Fajir = 6 pages Duhur = 0 pages 3assir = 6 pages Maghrib = 0 pages 3isha = 8 pages p.s. It wouldnt be so bad if the Mods could come up with a Ramadan-Reading topic specifically for Quran and tafseer of certain surah's. Too big a task..but worth it if you can pull it off.

There are too reasons why people drop out: 1. They cant hack it (read: dumb) 2. They are cleverer than their professors or know the course cant offer something new/want. All the successful people fall into category 2. So unless you're in (2), dont drop-out kids.

I must have missed the lesson in Islamic class where we were thought to be bigots.

No T, it doesnt bother me at all. The only people who care about these things are peasants. :cool: And Zu, is trying to take my cherished position aka Evil Mod. But Alas, even after that little 'spectacle', I still think he is HOT

^ LOL. Ditto. Its just a bit of tease really. Cay afka athena kamaba soo bixi karto. Its more of a mating call... see? some of the [censored word] people have already shown up for class

LoooL@Johhny. Man, your sense of humour is wicked as they say here. Too bad its lost half the time in half the people.

Brown perhaps. And here I thought she wore her hip-huggin diesels with pride. For shame! and yeah.. I was employed between those periods! :mad: