Not while Farole rules ya Sayid. Never while that man rules.

Mr Mukhtar is very readable and I found myself agreeing with many of the points he made. However, he lets such a brilliant article down by not providing any evidence or proof for his accusations. It is all suppositions and guesswork. Of course, I now expect A&T or Xiin to come and assure me that it is all true. One will do it with lots of winks and nudges, and the other will bring his (much abused) crystal ball out.

^^ Interesting take, if a tad inflammatory. Nur, Of course they could clash. In the same way some of your actions and decisions as an individual could clash with Aqeedah or Tawheed. But surely that is neither here nor there. I have already explained to you (I hoped) that clan loyalty is not absolute, it is merely convenient under our current circumstances. The choice of following a wayward clan or forsaking it would rest with the individual in the same way it did at the time of the prophet. Did not Cumar Ibnu Al Khatab kill his own uncle in Bader? Did not Cali Ibnu Ibi Taalib kill his own cousin? On the other hand, did not Khalid Ibnu Al Waleed urge his fighters to break up into clan lines so that they can tell where the weakness comes from? And all this while they were fighting Musaylimah Al Kadab! Clan in itself is not a problem and hardly ever was.

^^ He won the league on more than one occassion and got you to the CL final as recently as 2006. You can't give up on him just yet. His only problem is he is too loyal to the kids (maybe it is the club's policy and not his). He is the opposite of Murinho (who likes them old and experienced). I'll swap him with Roy any time of the day.

^^ Farole is not a fool, he's just mad.

^^ When the time comes, the entire country will take the day off. Waad arki.

I fully approve of the Prince's wedding plans. 29th of April is now declared a bank holiday. Wuuhooo!

^^ Now you're taking it too seriously. (waan fahmay).

Originally posted by Sayid*Somal: Ngonge - SL started the process the same way - did it not? Which is more reason why PL should not.

^^ My personality is flat and bland? But hoyo always said.....

^^ Pay attention, you silly goat. His masters was on the following: Daraasad lagu sameeyay gabdhaha Soomaalida ee Mareykanka iyo Kanada ayaa lagu ogaaday inay %75 ka boodaan ,wiilkii aan wadan gaari ,si kastoo ay u sareeyso tacliintiisa iyo quruxdiisa.

^^ Not funny or just dirty?

^^ Actually, in SL, the president only appointed three members of the seven member commission. Farole is naming five out of nine.

^^ Adigu keep replying to these posts and forget balanka aad ii qaaday in that other thread. It matters that he is Somali. It will inspire us all (particularly Blondy) to jump over bridges.

Originally posted by Cabdisomali: I post this just as an example of the shallowness naagaha Somalida ee West-iga. What I & the brother b4 have 2 say is something bigger than us. Pls don't b simple-mided. "Gabdhaha Somalida ee Maraykanka oo iska indha tira Jaceylka wiilasha aan gawaarida wadan Inta badan gabdhaha Soomaalida ee ku nool dalka Mareykanka ayaa sanadihii ugu dambeeyay la soo baxay dabeecado ay la yaabeen ragga Soomaalida ee damaca kala dhaxeeyo. Daraasad lagu sameeyay gabdhaha Soomaalida ee Mareykanka iyo Kanada ayaa lagu ogaaday inay %75 ka boodaan ,wiilkii aan wadan gaari ,si kastoo ay u sareeyso tacliintiisa iyo quruxdiisa. “Waan ka helay dhab ahaantii,dhowr mar ayaan kulanay,iyada qudheeda way iga heshay,way ii imaan jirtay,laakiin galabtii dambe ayey iga codsatay inaan gurigeeda ku booqdo,laakiin waxaan waydiiyay Street-ka xaafadeeda taga,waxay iigu jawaabtay soo raac,Highway hebel,laakiin waxaan ku iri,ma wato gaariye,baskee taga xaafadiina,dabadeedna waxay iigu jawaabtay”Raali iga ahoow,hadii aadan gaari wadan”ayuu yiri Wiil Soomaaliyeed ee Mastered ka diyaariyay Minnesota. Wiilkaas oo magaciisa ku koobay A.A.Y waxaa uu tibaaxay inuu mudo joogay Mareykanka,hadana markii uu la yaabay uu asaxaabtiisa waydiiyay,laakiin ay u sheegeen inay sanadihii dambe gabdhaha Mareykanka iyo Kanada dhaqankaas ku sii badanayay oo aysan la haasaawin mar hadii uu wiilka gaari lahayn. Mr A.A.Y wuxuu calaamatu su-aal saaray,gabdhaha Soomaalida maxay ragga hantida,aqoonta ,dabeecada,diinta,quruxda leh kaga jeclaadeen kuwa gaariga" webmaster@dhacdo.com dhacdo@hotmail.com http://dhacdo.com/news.php?readmore=51#comments This is the funniest post I read in SOL in years. IN YEARS!

Originally posted by Al-Haji Abtigiis & Tolka: Ngonge, Salaams saaxib! Salaan kashka iyo laabta ka soo go'day iga guddon! Laakin, meeshan way sii waalatay. Why is what he is and whether he is a drunk an issue here? I was so proud of him that I shared the link with my collegues at the office in an e-mail with the title : AND WHY NOT SAY WHERE HE IS FROM? So far only one feedback. A pakistani guy is joking "because this is the first time a Somali saved anyone, ...you only kill; so the media doesn't want to kill the wrong impression when it is an anomaly." Aduunka waxan ugo necebahay salaanta noocasa, saaxib. Salaan caadi maxaa kuu diiday? Hadwoto hadi kashka ama laabta wax kaga dhacaan ayaad odhan NGONGE ayaan Salaamay. Lakin waan kaa qaaday oo mid ka sii weyn cagta iyo cidhibta ka so go'day (sida Ronaldhino) ayaan kugo jawaabay. As for the topic. It's only an issue for Blondy, saaxib. Well, and Sayid (a little). The story itself is great. It could have said "Drunk Somali Saves Woman" and it would still not take away from his good deed (not that I think he's a drunk, as my special brew factoid shows).

Nur, Beating around the bush is not in my nature, saaxib. Therefore, when I perceive an agenda in something someone writes, I try to put it out there at once and inform the person of my understanding and perception of his words. This is why I wrote the first paragraph in my last reply. Since you have not given me any reason to change my mind, I still believe that the aim of this thread of yours is to forward the Islamic take on patriotism and clannish mindsets. In addition, since I also know of your sympathies with the Somali “resistance” movements, I also believe that your opinions here are driven by that sympathy. In other words, you are selling us the Shabab take on these issues. I repeat that patriotism and the declaration that one belongs to a certain clan has nothing to do with Aqeedah or Tawheed. One can proudly belong to a clan whilst fully believing that there is no god but Allah and that Mohamed (csw) is his prophet. That circumstances forced people to regress to the safety of the clan is not at all equivalent to treating the clan as a ‘wali’ or ‘protector’ alongside the almighty. This is not AMISOM ya shaykhuna, this is the tol, the kin and the family. It is merely a grouping just like Al Shabab are a grouping or Hezbu El Islam are a grouping (by the way, why are those two groupings separate if they both claim to be fighting for the xaq?). The clan would only contradict Aqeedah if its followers chose it in preference to or alongside their creator. Luckily (and Alhamdulillah of course) they don’t (they are simply tying their camels whilst putting their trust in Allah). So where do we go with this? Sit back, let me lead for a while. If our eventual destination is the xaq (regardless of what slant each of us puts on it) we shall reach it, Insha’Allah. Here is what I think (and you have to go back to my first paragraph here & in my previous reply to see my starting point), Islam shall ultimately prevail. It will because the people are fervently Muslim, fully committed and hopelessly innocent. You have seen how they flocked to the ICU, you have also seen how those Courts were a Union that represented most clans in the capital city and you have seen how easily clan animosities were suppressed in those six months of court rule. Alas, the wretched ICU let it all slip through their fingers with their crazy far-fetched ideas and stubborn belief that war is the only answer. Still (and this is the important part), the basic ingredients are all there and as soon as viable Islamic leadership is found the people shall flock to it again. You and others may insist that a viable Islamic leadership already exists in the guise of Al Shabab and Hezbu El Islam. Some might even go further and cite Sheikh Sharif as one. Alas, the various clans in Somalia would disagree with such a contention. Nobody is flocking to any of these groupings and the endless fighting continues (with Al Shabab capturing towns then getting evicted from them repeatedly). They are no ICU and Sheikh Sharif’s is not a government. The mistrust continues. Today, in Somalia, clan is everything. Clans represent nations within nations. Yet, the mosques are still full and the people still (try) to fulfil all their religious obligations. When clans fall out over resources (and that would indeed include representation nationally), some might resort to clannish bragging. Such bragging, however, is not the be all and end all of clannish belonging. There are reasons that bring it along (as explained above). We are all members of SOL. We know what the rules are and most try to follow these rules. We also know that if a moderator of any section abuses his privileges, we would still have the option of making a complaint to the administrator of the site. If people are not happy with the administrator’s decision or feel that he is not impartial, they usually boycott the site (or even create one of their own, like we had a few years back). Micnaha, SOL oon ayaay ka baxeen, diinta wali way ku jiraan. Though I already spoke about patriotism in my earlier reply, I feel I must expand on the idea and deal with it from a Somali point of view. In the Somali sense, patriotism does not exist. Well, not in the way of belonging to one nation, one people and one government. Only a spattering of dreamers who neither work towards realising such a goal nor advance any ideas to create it, are the ones who believe in such a redundant (under the circumstances) concept. They bemoan clannish blocks but offer no feasible alternative that would build up trust or unity. In fact, your Islamic outlook has a much bigger chance of bearing fruit than theirs ever would (if only it were not sullied by Al Shabab associations ). P.S. I chose not to reply to your earlier words because I did not believe it had anything to do with the topic itself. However, I would appreciate it (when you have the time) if you wrote an article about the ‘xeer’ system and its conflict with Islam.

^^ Yes he played well. They still shackled him for 92 minutes. Where did all those fancy passes and runs end up for those 92 minutes? Dee naga daa. (Though I've got to admit, Lucas was all over the place there).

^^ If you disagree with me dear, tell me why. Don't give me a promise that you shall return yet ask me for more clarifications. You are picking Nur's bad habits there. But I shall indulge you and tell you what a clannish mentality entails. It is when I (NGONGE the son of Mr Iron, the son of Mr Debonaire) look down upon you because you are Malika (the daughter of someone that I don't know). But, of course, you are not the daughter of someone that I don't know. You are the daughter of noble people who are the sons of noble people. In Somalia today the fight is about land, resources and saftey. The empty talk of this man or that man does not (and would not) find receptive ears if it were not for the original problem. I totally believe that clan is everything. It is real in 4.5, it is real in the SSC struggle and it is real in the ONLF fight, it is real in SL, PL and whatever last 'L' that has an area name before it. But in all these examples, it is not because reer hebel believe they are the best of the best. It is only because reer hebel do not want to be trampeled on. Remove that threat and you will remove the majority of the clan rehtoric that gets you and all the holier-than-thou wheel inventors hot under the collar. Your turn. Oblige me please.

^^ Heh@Get over it! War he can't, he'll drown. (keep up now, keep up...).

^^ I shall get back to you and prove you wrong, as soon as I finish reading this:

^^ Want to swap?

Pulling numbers out from thin air has become a national sport around these parts. I mean only yesterday did a certain Nomad tell me that Qardho's population (including the tourists) was 1/3 of Puntland. Ma run baa?

Originally posted by The Zack: ^ . I am not a clanist waryaa.. I am a nationalist, the O is too big for a clan. 6 million can't be one clan! I daa warya. I have just spotted Nur's topic and went there to spread the Clan Is Everything mantra instead.

Originally posted by Nur: Malika sis MaashAllah, that was easy! wasn't it, you see, restructuring our loyalty along faith is what will save us in the day of judgment, at the cheap price of taking the risk of disowning our own clan or race who have broken Allah's covenant. An Ethiopian, European, Chinese or a Jewish Muslim should be closer to our hearts in affection than a hypocrite Somali warlord. Faith should define the new borders, not race, nor geographical colonial maps. In stark contrast, imagine redrawing world maps along faith affiliations, Christians Catholics, Protestants, Presbyterians, Morons, etc) , Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and Atheists! imagine if these are the new nations with their homelands as their borders? Our dilemma is reconciling our loyalties, is it for our clan or national leaders, our lands or our faith? and what are the exception to the rule if any? Nur When I read your words, I always have to guess at your starting point. In the past, it was easy. I assumed that it was faith related. However, ever since you revealed your sympathies with the Shabab doctrine, I am usually left with no choice but to judge your words along those lines and assume that you are forwarding yet another Shabab inspired argument. I merely mention all of this so that you are under no illusions as to my terms of reference when tackling this topic of yours. To cut a long story short and deal with your leading questions head on, I say that there is no connection whatsoever between Aqeedah, Tawheed and Clannisim/Patriotism (in the Somali case). The first two are foregone conclusions if you are a Muslim, and do not collide with the third. On the other hand, the Islamic Ummah is a fluid and abstract concept that is not governed by borders or bureaucratic rules (and so it shouldn't). The whole idea of Dacwa sees to that. Of course, your musings above do beg the question about how one gets dealt with on the Day of Judgment. Will nations get punished in mass or is Xisaab & Ciqaab an individual thing? Ya Sheikhuna, you are still a Somali no matter how many Ethiopian Muslim brothers you have. You are still a son of reer hebel in spite of pledging loyalty to any new Islamic grouping that may spring up. This is something that did not change when Qureesh had a nabi of their own or when some of them migrated to Medina to be known as Muhajroon and live amongst their Muslim brothers, Al Ansar. It did not change when Bani Ummayah created a Khilafa that spread Islam far and wide or when Bani Cabbas took over from them. Being a Muslim does not stop one from being anything else as is proven to this day when we refer to Bilaal Al Xabashi, Suleiman Al Farsi and Suhaib Al Romi (or as some of Al Shabab members are known as fulan Al Ameriki, etc). So we go back to the origin of your "provocative" topic and ask, what is it that you are after here? Are there Muslims who believe in their country or clan above (or alongside) their creator? Where and how? Or is it a perception that you and the impulsive modern Muslims have? You talk of Tawheed and give it a much deeper meaning than what it actually is (when one removes all the paraphernalia and philosophising). But what is Tawheed? Is it not the simple utterance and belief that there is no god but Allah? Would a layman (or woman) who professes to hold that belief add a clan or country to it? Has such a thing happened? Returning to the issue of patriotism and clannish mindsets (such an ugly term – arr la tuzakko anfosokom maad maqal miya?). Does a clannish mindset exist in Somalia today? I beg to disappoint you here and declare that it does not. Our wars are ones of mistrust and fitna rather than one where one clan believes it is better than another. This, of course, presents me with an opportunity to remind you of the ayah that talks about two groups fighting and how we should try to mediate between the two or fight the one that refuses the mediation (I fully paraphrase here but you get the hint). Now, if you look at the ayah itself, it refers to two groups of Mo'meneen (not even Muslimeen) but why are they two groups and what may I ask could make them break into two if they are already Muslim? The command from the Almighty is also very clear; fight the one that refuses to adhere to the laws of mediation (as set down by the faith). There is nothing that forbids one from belonging to an Islamic group (be it a clan, a nation or a sect). The conflict only arises when one refuses to adhere to the rules of Islam. In the case of Somalia it is quite clear that many people were (and still are) happy to adhere to such rules. The advent of the Islamic Courts Union and the way they pacified the capital city in such a short time is proof enough of that fact. People from different clans flocked to them because they saw them as fair arbiters (see the mistrust point above?). Yet, though these Courts did not prove to have a long-term political solution for the Somali problem and though they eventually got waylaid by the adulation, their brief stint disproved the whole nonsensical arguments about clannish mindsets. Somalis do not fight over whose horse is faster (ala Daaxis Wal qabra’a), they fight over resources, saaxib. Such a conflict is not clan dependent either; it is something that can take place at the individual level (like two neighbours fighting over a shared piece of land. Strangely enough, when it is two men it is regarded as just a fight but when it is two clans it becomes a clannish mindset!). Never mind all of that, tell me, does the Somali system for clan mediations differ much from the Islamic one? Will Al Shabab ever adhere to the rules? Patriotism in itself is also not a problem. The love of one's land and the wish to improve such a land (and people) does not (and should not) have an effect on one's faith. It is simply an issue of groupings, safety being in numbers, shared history, land or customs (that do not conflict with the faith itself). It is not an extension of a clannish mindset it is rather an extension of the family unit. Now let us lob patriotism and clans together for a minute then use a real life example to see if the two do and have affected one's tawheed or aqeeda. Look at the case of Ayaan Hirsi (though usually, I am loath to use exact examples), how many patriotic Somalis would give her the time of day? How many from her own clan? I would confidently argue that the number would be very minuscule. In fact, only a misguided few. The world is still ok ya saaxibi. Don't get yourself (and others) all tangled up in these utopian ideas of yours.