Uthman1 Posted February 12, 2007 I think there is a lot of confusion here. First of all islam is not about picking and choosing to suit ones desires. Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) said the ummah will be broken into 73 sects and only one will go jannah and 72 in the fire. Prophet(peace be upon him) further said the saved sect are those who are upon his sunnah and the sunnah of his companions Clearly from this understanding it is clear that sufis have diverted away from the manhaj of the Prophet(peace be upon him) and his companions when they do grave worshipping and calling upon their dead imams or saints. The Prophet(peace be upon him) and Allah warned of this shirk and other forms of associations. As for one holding on to Hanafi, Shaafi, Malaki and Hanbali, then they should know that none of these great shiekhs asked their followers to hold on to their methods infact all of them said clearly in their books that their way is that of the Prophet(peace be upon him) and his companions and if their work proves to be wrong then go back to the Quran and Sunnah and reject their mistakes. So from this it is clear that they didnt ask their students and followers to blindly follow their way. The Prophet(peace be upon him) never said for us to follow everything that these imams said. So what is the correct manhaj? It is that of the Prophet(peace be upon him) and his companions and that is the manhaj of salafu salih. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bananaamprice Posted February 12, 2007 Salams.... Well, there are six schools of jurisprudence and two schools of theology. The Hanafies, the Malikies, the Hambalies, the Sahfi`ies, the Ja`faries, and the Salafies. And the Asha`rah and the Mu`tazilah. Six plus two equals: 8. All in hell, save one! Lets role a dice, shall we? Peace. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ameen Posted February 12, 2007 Banana&Rice, personally.... I'd rather not take the chance on rolling the dice. This is not 60 or even 100 years we are risking, but rather.....eternity. Did you hear me.....I SAID ETERNITY and that has no fixed time limit. Scary if you actually let it sink into to your head. And Allah knows best Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thierry. Posted February 12, 2007 Allaah - the Most High – said, “And hold fast altogether to the Rope of Allaah and do not become divided.” [2] [2] Allaah - the Most High – said, “And do not be of those who commit Shirk (associate partners with Allaah), those who split-up their Religion and become sects; each sect rejoicing in what is with them.” [3] [3] The Prophet (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) said, “I advise you to have taqwaa of Allaah and to hear and to obey, even if an Abyssinian slave becomes your leader. Those of you who live long after me will see a lot of differences, so hold fast to my Sunnah and to the Sunnah of the Rightly-Guided Caliphs after me. Cling to it tightly and beware of newly-invented matters, for every newly invented matter is an innovation, and every innovation is misguidance, and all misguidance is in the Fire.” [4] [4] He (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) also said, “Indeed, the people of the Book before you split-up into seventy-two sects. And this nation will split-up into seventy-three sects, seventy two are in the Fire and one is in Paradise.” [5] And in another narration, “All of them are in the Fire except one.” It was asked, ‘Who is that one?’ He replied, “That which I and my Companions are upon.” [6] [5] Ibn Mas’ood - radiyallaahu ’anhu – said, [7] Allaah’s Messenger (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) drew a line for us and then said, “This is Allaah’s Path.” Then he drew lines to its right and its left, and said, “These are differing paths, upon each of them there is a Shaytaan (devil) calling to it.” Then he recited, “And verily this is My Path, so follow it, and do not follow other paths for they will separate you away from His Path.” [8] ] Shaykh ’Abdul-Qaadir al-Jeelaanee (d.561H) said, “As for al-Firqatun-Naajiyah (the Saved-Sect) it is Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jamaa’ah, and there is no name for Ahlus-Sunnah except one - and that is Ashaabul-Hadeeth (the People of Hadeeth).” [9] [7] Allaah - the One free from all defects, the Most High - orders us to hold fast altogether to the Noble Qur‘aan; and not to be of the mushriks (those who associate partners with Allaah in that which is particular to Him) who split-up their Religion and become shee’an (sects) and hizbs (parties). And the Prophet (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) informed us that the Jews and the Christians will be divided into many sects and that the Muslims will split-up even more. And that these sects will be fitting for entry into the Fire, due to their deviations and their being far from the Book of their Lord and the Sunnah of their Messenger. And that only one sect will be saved from the Fire and enter Paradise - and that is the Jamaa’ah; those who cling to the Book and the authentic Sunnah and to the actions of the Companions of the Prophet (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam. O Allaah! Make us from amongst the Saved-Sect; and grant the Muslims the guidance and ability to be from it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thierry. Posted February 12, 2007 Asalamu Alaikum Brother and sisters this religion is perfect it was perfected over 1400 years ago. And is something comprehensively flawless and complete it does not need, upgrading, updating or anything that removes or adds to it. Now that we understand that Islam is perfect and that the Quran and the Sahih Sunnah is infallible the question is how we practice. do we faith practice it with our own understanding which can lead to innovation or do we practice it in the manner that the messenger (saw) and those closest to him practised. When the Prophet says the saved sect are those that are upon what I am upon and that which my companions are upon it is a fundamental statement it tells you that there is no other way of being saved apart from that of the prophet and his companions. The prophet (saw) said be aware and beware of newly-invented matters, for every newly invented matter is an innovation, and every innovation is misguidance, and all misguidance is in the Fire.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khayr Posted February 13, 2007 Now that we understand that Islam is perfect and that the Quran and the Sahih Sunnah is infallible the question is how we practice. Just a note, Allah is Perfect and we seek his perfection never being able to attain it. Islam is not Allah, therefor, it can't be Perfect. It is a Manifestation of Allah, a Revelation but that does not make it Perfect. Why? Because it is other than ALLAH, whom Alone the role of Perfection can be attributed to. It is important to make this distinction because we can't claim "Perfection" for our Deen. If you say that Islam is Perfect, then you are putting Islam at the Top and all else follows then. So Allah then becomes Muslimized and put Under Islam and not Above Islam. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khayr Posted February 13, 2007 Originally posted by banana&rice: Salams.... Well, there are six schools of jurisprudence and two schools of theology. The Hanafies, the Malikies, the Hambalies, the Sahfi`ies, the Ja`faries, and the Salafies. And the Asha`rah and the Mu`tazilah. Six plus two equals: 8. All in hell, save one! Lets role a dice, shall we? Peace. This is what puzzles the avg. modern person and this is what leads them into their agnostic thinking. You can have many divergent schools of thoughts and at the end of the day, they reveal some aspects of the Truth but none of them really can contain Allah, the Truth. So you can be a salafi, ashari, mutarudi,tablighi etc. and still be "saved". How and Why? Through Taqwa (Consciousness and Fear of God) and Iman (Belief in God). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taliban Posted February 13, 2007 Originally posted by Khayr: Islam is not Allah, therefor, it can't be Perfect. The Qur'an is the central religious text of Islam. The Qur'an is Allah's infallible and perfect Words. Therefore, Islam is a perfect religion. "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion." - [Quran 05:03] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fabregas Posted February 13, 2007 Originally posted by Taliban: quote:Originally posted by Abu_Geeljire: Ash'ariyyah theology stresses divine revelation over human reason. Ethics, they say, cannot be derived from human reason: God's commands, as revealed in the Qur'an and the practice of Muhammad and his companions (the sunnah, as recorded in the traditions, or hadith), are the source of all morality. You have got a confusion; here you are talking about theology, while Khayr is talking about school of thoughts or Madhaeb. War ninyahow is daji saxib adiga baan ku cawinayey.Waxaan la yaabay dadkan aad wada moodid inay dagaal markasta ku jiraan.Diintu waa wax waligeed jirtay,ma'aha wa cusub oo ku xidhaan, salafiyiin, taliban, muslim brotherhood iyo waxaan kale oo lada wada sheganayo...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thierry. Posted February 13, 2007 Khayr you bring the same argument that the mutazilla brought to Ahmed ibn Hanbal (ra). Their argument was that Quran was created therefore it cannot be perfect. Sheikh Hanbal and many of the other leading Ulema refuted their heretic views by making the single claim that the Quran is the words of Allah. I think you are getting confused between Muslims and Islam. It is true that Muslims are not perfect and can never gain that perfection but by sticking to the Quaran and the Sahih Sunnah they can do their best and with the Raxma of Allah Inshallah they will be saved. How ever Islam is different my friend it is the perfect way of life and thank you brother Taliban I was looking for that verse, Khayr the Quran itself refutes your argument Asala,u Alaikum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taliban Posted February 13, 2007 Originally posted by Thierry.: thank you brother You're welcome. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ameen Posted February 13, 2007 Assalam Alaikum In this world and age, it is about supporting your claims. What better evidence than a verse from the Quran (note: In Surah Imran verse 7, Allah states that there are some verses in the Quran that are entirely clear and others that aren't. Understanding this verse would lead us to read more so we can search for the verses that are entirely clear such as the stories of the people before us, the laws of Allah (for the most part) and the Names and Attributes of Allah) and if the Quran is the best evidence, than the debate should stop there correct? I’m afraid to say, it probably won’t. Thierry, I don’t believe our brother Khayr is claiming the Quran is created (Allah forbid such claims) but rather, he speaks not about the Quran but actually Islam not being perfect. But Since the Quran (which is not created and is within itself perfect) is the foundation of Islam, a normal person would think to themselves, how can a religion who's foundation (The Quran) is perfect, not be perfect? So in that case we turn to the Quran and read what Allah said about our Religion and thus the debate should stop. So in this case, Taliban appears to have the stronger proof so thank you brother for your efforts. Just one note about debating. If we debate than let the debates be for a solid cause. Let it be known that debates that are not resolved in this world (and sometimes even if they are) are brought forth before Allah and He shall inform us of that which we have been differing in. I don’t know about yall but I, myself on that Day.....I don’t think my heart will be able to cope with another person stepping forward asking Allah to judge between us in a debate we had in dunya, while Allah looks upon my deeds and makes a judgment. So let’s be wise and enter debates for the sake of Allah. And Allah knows best Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Haneefah Posted February 14, 2007 Waxaan la yaabay dadkan aad wada moodid inay dagaal markasta ku jiraan. Aqoon yari baa badanaa seeflaboodnimada keenta walal. Insha'Allah, let us show sabr. Kheyr, I'm simply bemused by that comment of yours. I don't know what to make of it really. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Honesita Posted February 16, 2007 ^^^ I listened to this lecture series by Muhammad AlShareef about the Four Imams.. He mentioned how Imam Abu Haneefah rahimahu Allah was really good at debates and how he never used to lose debates... As he got older though, he stopped debating and someone asked him why? He replied saying that in thier days, they used to debate with the fear that the person they are debating would say something that would take them out of the fold of Islam... They cared so much about the person they were debating... they wanted them to stop their deviance... He said how now pple debate with the hope that the person they are debating with will say something terribly wrong so they can prove their point... I hope we realize the great lesson in Imam Abu Haneefah's statement and stop arguing while wishing the other person is misguided... The purpose behind everythin we talk about should be guiding others not causing them further misguidance..! This might not apply to this specific thread, but i've seen in it in mostly discussions that involve Islamic topics....it's really scary walaahi...!! Fii Amaani'Laah Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khayr Posted February 19, 2007 Originally posted by Taliban: quote:Originally posted by Khayr: Islam is not Allah, therefor, it can't be Perfect. The Qur'an is the central religious text of Islam. The Qur'an is Allah's infallible and perfect Words. Therefore, Islam is a perfect religion. "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion." - [Quran 05:03] Salamun caliykum, الاناةُ منَ اللهِ و العجلةُ منَ الشيطانِِِ Calmness is from Allah and haste is from Satan (Tirmidhi). According to the Mufasirun like Imam Baydawi, Qurtabi and Qushari, the workd Kamal in the ayat is in reference to the completion of the Risalah/Message of the Rasul (sallahu caliyhe wasilm) and infact when the Hadrat Omar heard this he started weeping out of sorrow because he knew that the Rasul (sallahu caliyhe wasilm's) time with the Sahaba would soon come to an end. His reaction wasn't that Islam is Perfect or that because they are Muslim, that salvation is guaranteed for them. Certainely, Hadrat Umar was not of that frame of mind. So the question really is- Do we misinterpret the Deen and Sentimentalize it? Why is it necessary for some to claim that Islam is Perfect or whatever their religion or madhab might be? Allah is Perfection all else not being Him, is not Perfect. The very fact that Islam can be defined is a testament to its limitation because at the end of the day, it is not Allah but a WAY to Allah. The Quran are the Words of Allah but it does not encompass ALLAH and ALL knowledge of ALLAH. It contains a particular message that is enough for Mankind until the Qiymah. A message that if followed, we can attain Salvation. It is of value to make these defintions and distinctions because we don't live in isolation anymore and are faced with many different religions and much confusion in the form of 'intellectual secular thought' which seeks to state that because other religions exist, that we can't really choose one over the other. Of which a response can be made that because there are different cars out there, should we ignore them because people get into accidents using them and just take the subways or better yet-cycle around! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
