VOA: Debate between Editors of Wardheernews.com and Awdalnews.com

[Suldaanka]

Part 1

 

Part 2

 

The editor of Wardheernews.com could not come up with a good argument besides his wishful thinking that a unity is better than seperation which doesn't cut it in a debade like this.

 

Well done to Bashir Gooth the editor of Awdalnews for clearly and concisely putting forward Somaliland's case with very good facts and examples to back.

[Che -Guevara]

Oh, You hyped it up, and I was expecting Rooble being slapped left to right...disappointed now.

 

Let's examine key points:

 

Pre-Independence Facts

 

Rooble...Waa dad jira Ingiriiska ka hor, oo isku

soo laabt Somalidu-Partial True

 

Goth...There was never Somali State ( central

authority that enjoyed sovereignty over

Somali lands-True

 

All.....There is/was Somali nation-cultural/

linguistic group-True

 

On British Somaliland

 

Rooble....Not all tribes in northern Somalia

accepted British protection and eventual

colonial status-True

 

Goth....But still colonial borders existed-True

 

On legal Obstacles

 

Rooble....Article 3 of AU the sovereignty and

territorial integrity of its member

nations-True

 

Goth...Somaliland was independent state, and

hence the article doesn't apply-You make

an argument for/against but backed with

facts-references and citations please,

no emotion ridden mantra or outbursts.

 

Rooble...There was no Somaliland state with its

own flag,insignia,anthem, currency,

and other visible state artifacts.

 

Goth...Somaliland was recongnized as

independent state by 33 African,

European, and Arab nations-Citations

please people. What your grandma and

granpa told you doesn't count. I'm

sure they don't lie, but memory can

be faulty.

 

Rooble...I researched that assertion. I saw

nothing to back it up-we don't know

if he actually did the research. But

you could prove or disprove his claim.

Please do, and again proper documentation

Don't make me get your grade teacher.

 

The old man...War dee waa laqoree-offers no

references/citations.

 

Goth...Somaliland is merely reasserting its

independence and sovereignty, and AU

should respect-Please again provide proof

of Somaliland's independence.

 

Rooble...There was no country,nation and state

called Somaliland when OAU, the AU

predecessor was formed.

How could one respect the rights of

non-exist entity-let's hear folks,

relevant facts only.

 

Goth...But the bedrock of AU constitution is to

respect colonial boundaries-True

 

Rooble...But Somaliland never rectified the OAU

and AU constitution, and is not

legally recognized as member now or then

-True

 

Concluding Remarks: all agreed there is major

legal obstacles facing

Somaliland.

 

On Grievances

 

Goth....Destruction of life and property in

Somaliland was immense-True

 

Rooble...Agreed-only in someone in cave for

the last 30 yrs would disagree.

 

Goth....Complete political domination by

southerners-True

 

Rooble...Agreed-True though assassination of

Rashid killed any possible reforms

and Barre was bad to everybody. But

still he was southerner.Rumors had it

he wasn't born in the south, but always

denied that...Horn please inform us

 

On secession

 

Goth and the old man: People want it-debetable

share why? To satisfy

my own curiosity, could

Oodweyne, and others

tell how the idea

of secession started.

It's shrouded in mystery.

 

 

Rooble..This was the project of few

intellectuals from particular group

(insert qabiil)-True, if Oodweyne

believes otherwise, facts please.

 

The Oldman....Burco 1991-True, but Walanweyn

disputes the facts of shir.

 

 

On possible Solutions:

 

Rooble...Hargeisa should sit down with Xamar-

Makes sense!

Goth....There is no Xamar, but that would have

been ideal-True

 

Goth/Oldman...Xamar should take care of their

own issues first-True

Rooble...Agreed

 

Goth/Old man...Somalilanders are not going

back only to be controlled by

Xamar

 

Rooble...Federalism,cantons, etc

 

Goth...They wanna control everything without

consulting. Heck they are Puntland this

way now-True about Xamar wanting to

control rest of Somalia.Don't know Puntland

thing.

 

Rooble...Agree they must changed that culture-

True.

 

Ultimatums

 

Goth-We will sit down but we give up our hard

won independence.A generation of landers( 18

yrs, possible foot soldiers) grew up with

the idea of Somaliland-can issue ur dire

warnings and ultimatums ppl.

 

Rooble...Let's sit down. First accept Somalia is

one, and no sane southerner will agree

to the partition of Somalia-True

 

Goth....Could South afford another 20yrs of war

cuz Somaliland is willing to fight and

die for its independence-True

 

Rooble....No, but we mustn't forget qabiil

dynamics.

 

On sentimental issues

 

Rooble....Somali wey isku baahantahey.n something

about qudaar from Xamar to Hargeisa.

Maybe he was reer Waqooyi and wat was

it muus, maas Xiin will hand

deliver to Oodweyne.

 

Goth.....Peaceful and unified Horn with Somalis

right in center-wishful thinking

 

And Riyaale's comment

 

Goth/the oldman....We don't share his sentiments

farther from it, we wish for

the opposite to happen.

[Shabelle]

Let them have their own state.

 

They weren't called qaldans for nothing .

[Sophist]

I will opine on this Insha Allah when I have chance to listen Insha Allh.

[Mintid Farayar]

Ooda,

 

You're giving way too much free tutoring :eek:

 

You should have let them figure out the situation on their own. It would have taken a while...

 

Che is not a bad character at all from his writings but happens to be frustrated most times with having such rascals for neighbors in his home region.

 

Granting residency for him & his in Hargeisa will help him see the light

[Naxar Nugaaleed]

Somalia was a Union between two independent former colonies (One being a protectorate).

 

One side said to hell with this, we are better off by ourselves.

 

And there is nothing anyone Can do about, whats all the debate for?

 

Somalilanders, who would focus on convincing the rest of the awdalites, Dervishes and maakhirites that still believe in that insane asylum that you are not the monsters they were lead to believe and think of 12 step program for them.

[NASSIR]

I have read once an E-mail by Bashir Goth sent over to a friedn. I swear the man does not believe in the dismemberment of Somalia. I don't know why his guarded inner conviction and outward endorsement of this contraversial issue of seperation greatly differ.

He does pronounce outrageous lies that when researched come out to be nonexistant and misleading. Perhaps, he impedes rather than advance the one overriding goal of the secessionist camp.

 

On the other hand, Mr. Roble did a great job as always, a very experienced and informed pundit.

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

Naxar we are all somalilanders do not divide us like the rest of somalida.

[AYOUB]

Originally posted by Oodweyne:

But still the

2005

AU's fact finding mission

did reached that “legal judgment” on that so precise point in which the said

Mr. Roble

was so obtuse to have notice it, in the first place.

 

Subsequently, his

whole thesis

could easily be debunked in a

"point-by-point"

basis; since, he could easily know that on legal ground, at least, Somaliland’s case at the

AU

has been accepted. But, it was felt, that

politically

, the Somalia that came into being in

July

of

1960

could not really take such a severe blow that such action will entail, henceforth, at least in it's present status.

Yep indeed. Nothing is sacred or as black and white as Faisal Rouble believes when it comes to international politics - especially when the AU/UN are involved. The current status of Saharawi Republic and Southern Sudan are two fine examples.

 

Rouble's hypocritical clannish-wailing argument against Somaliland's withdrawal from the 1960 unification with Somalia was full of HOLES.

 

1. He accepts that 1st July 1960 Union between Somaliland and Somalia to form Somali Republic took place because the majority of people were yearning for it, while ignoring the fact that MAJORITY of somalilanders do back the decision to withdraw from it today, hence his opposition to another referendum being held as a settlement - as suggested by Mr. Bashir Goth. Another important fact that Mr. Rouble chooses to ignore is: what the majority of Somalilanders were yearning ( and risked everything including their independence ) for in 1960 and before was the unification of all Somalis - not an unfair merger of two States. It just silly for anyone who knows these facts to even try to use the bogus "territorial integrity" argument against Somaliland.

 

2. He claims Eritrea's split from Ethiopia was negotiated while ignoring the fact that the Eritrea People's Liberation Front (EPLF) and other movements STRUGGLED for decades to gain their "negotiated settlement" with Ethiopia.

 

3. Rouble claims Somaliland should have gone the "negotiated settlement" route while ignoring the facts:

 

(i) The 1991 decision to withdraw from the Union was made AFTER some of Somalia's warlords who took part in the toppling of Gen. Barre's regime - like Ali "Naafto" Mahdi - decided to declare a new "government" without consultation with people of what is now Somaliland.

 

(ii) Somalia did not produce what anyone in their right mind could consider a negotiating PARTNER for the subsequent 17 years or so.

 

(iii) Somalilanders' withdrawal from the Union in 1991 has been proven correct because the rest of the former Somali Republic has since then been failed a State. The 1993 UNISOM ( including Operation Restore Hope) and the current AU AMISOM military operation are clear evidence of it - not to mention other operations like the on-going one against

piracy/counter human trafficking etc

 

(iv) It would have been foolish for Somalilanders to sit on the hands and wait for Somalia to be ready for "negotiations" for 17 years especially when even the likes of Mr. Rouble openly admit that Mogadishu's warlords would not RESPECT Somalilanders' quest for self-determination anyway. If the terms "agreement" and "negotiation" meant anything to the warlords, Somalia would not be in this mess.

 

(v) Somaliland withdrawal from the Union is a local political SOLUTION to the problems facing the people of the former Somali Republic. Mr. Rouble's claims of SL being "unilateral" declaration and a "wrong route" is just bizarre. For some Somalilanders, the rules of engagement book was torn even before the 1969 military coup and 21 years of Gen. Barre's (AUN) junta rule. The 1961 referendum and Somali Republic's first leader Aadan Cadde's (AUN) decision to use unconstitutional presidential decree to override agreed parliamentary unification procedures - which triggered Mj. Xassan Kayd (AUN) & Co's mutiny - are just two examples. Somaliland's declaration of independence is also less of a unilateral declaration compared to Somalia's failed foreign-backed "Transitional Governments" formed in neighbouring countries - not to mention the newly created outfit on the back of the new 275 MPs "negotiated" by Sh. Sharif's Alliance for Re-Liberation of Somalia in a Djibouti hotel..

 

To be continued I'A....

[Che -Guevara]

Oodweyne...Goth and the oldman presented no earth shattering argument that would dissuade anyone one way or the other that's unless you were already pro and anti secession. But I do understand your idea of retrospectively applying the colonial boundaries.That warrants serious research, and it's not as black and white as both sides of the camp would like to potray it.

 

As for the case of Eritrea, it politically legitimized its existance by essentially reconstructing the reality in Ethiopia, and installing the essentail legal framework to facilitate partition, something Somaliland hasn't done and is not able to do.Cuz Eritrea laid the legal groundwork,Ethiopia sanctioned the partition, the AU had no choice, but to accept the verdict.And the UN charter allows the right self determination, and followed Ethiopia's suit. Of course, what made all this possible is Eritrea's divisive victory over Mengiste, and the military superiority over the Tigray. It is unlikely Hargeysa could subdue Mogadisho, and essentially changed the constitution of Somalia.

 

Mintid....I'm Xamari through and through, but won't mind visiting Hargeysa, besides I can't live in a city without shoreline...nothing beats Xamar Cadeey

[Taleexi]

The epicenter of Mr. Goth's and the oldman's argument was based purely on the following insufficient fallacies:

 

They say: WE are the only victims of the last regime's abuses.

 

They say: WE are the only ones who can fight to the end for their self determination in the Somali peninsula.

 

They say: Dismembering of Somalia is divine while Somaliland's unity is sacrosant irrespective of other northern-clans' wishes for self determination or political association, the secessionists have to get their way or else, like there is no tomorrow.

 

They say: Justice can only go back till 1988, not withstanding the fact when the current hard core secessionists' forefathers were friendly clans of the colonial powers who were aiding the savages with their raids and harrasment to their brethren.

 

They say: Invading Las Anod and making it the Suweto of Somalia is a legit endeavor that worth undertaking, ignoring that they are playing with a frozen conflict.

 

They say: By all accounts we are the chosen people because our activities are unconstrained like other-Somali savages, be speaking, intruding and trespassing to others' territories and internal affairs respectively. Why?,because we are the only saints of Somalia.

 

Finally, one may wonder with such an attitude, how far can their clannish dogma advance?. How would they ever get a sympathy/dividend for some of their heavily invested, partially legit sentiments?. However, I've to offer a free consultation to the brothers who give their allegiance to the cause of "Somaliland". For the sake of our common ends, please don't bite more than you can swallow, be optimistic but realistic, let us discuss the issue of the secession out in the open where nobody thinks has the right to decide for the other.

[Captain Warya]

If the Situation in Somalia doesnt change in the near future, Somaliland can do whatever they want. However if this current government stablizes the south and brings a level of peace and development that is comparable with Somaliland than talk can begin.

 

I think most Somalilanders still believe in Somaliweyne, after all we are the same people and they weren't the only ones brutalized by the siad barre regime.

 

Islam and brotherhood is more favored by all Somalis than fake Nationalism based on Colonialist borders and spread by decivers with thier own agenda.

 

What would a person from NorthWest Somalia chose?

 

A secular "democratic government" that is filled with deceivers

 

or

 

An Islamic government led by Genuine Muslims and governs with Sharia Law.

 

I think the answer is very obvious.

 

 

Now with the West crumbling they will have less influence on our affairs. Islam will rule.

[General Duke]

The same old weak and meaningless arguments.

There is no such thing as republic of Somaliland and never was , Somalia on the other hand has existed since 1960 as a sovereign independent state.

 

The secessionist arguments while romantic in London and other British haunts have no real bearing on the reality on the ground.

 

1. “Somaliland” is ruled by members of the former Siyad barre regime, thus the argument for victim hood is out of the window.

2. There has not been any successful forthcoming recognition from anyone least of all neighbouring states or the African union, without this it’s a pipe dream of Shankaroon proportions.

3. Large segments of the populations that make up a huge part of what was the British Somaliland colony, do not agree to secession and have opposed it through the barrel of the gun.

[General Duke]

Lool. Oodweyne the man with the soft squeeky voice . You know one only starts with and resorts to insults to mask his impotence and I know you have many issues with regards to Shankaroon. No recognition as you predicted years ago, no real progress in development, mere talk and NSS Chief Riyaale is at top of his game smothering the wishes and ignoring the cries of the Mugged ones. Corruption is high, the voter registration drive was a fraud and even the donors are quite upset at the waste of money. Some clans have been ignored others over emphasized some even have been registered twice.

 

I wont insult you dear lad, I pity the fool who after 20 years believes NW Somalia is going anywhere but be apart of the state of Somalia as it has been these past 48 years.

 

Shankaroon, needs a new leader will Riyaale go that’s the big question in Somalia today, will Riyaale go?

[Taleexi]

Dhankaan ka hadlay waa kaa Odweyne dhaafay hadalkiiye.

 

Mr. Odweyne,

 

Here's my brief response to you. With all due to respect, you reserve, like anyone else on SOL, the right to read through, pick and choose, in your own fittings about the historical facts of Somaliland analyzed by the political pundits of the horn including Mr. Roble, a guru of Somali political evolution who is based in Los Angeles. However, your sentiments and details are somewhat distorted and fabricated. Your tone exhibits intolerance to other’s views, not to mention the lack of both substance and subjectivity in your claims. No matter how long one tries to capture your unique and idiosyncratic use of the language, one comes to the conclusion that you are either a self-appointed entertainer or someone who just doesn’t get the complexity of the debated issue, and remember! Ignorance is not a defense.

 

Zooming into the past, a legit question to ask is that: has Somaliland protectorate ever been a recognized state that enjoyed her sovereignty like all other family of nations?. Dear Odweyne, if it is hearsay, tit-for-tat game, we can debate on this endlessly but as our chap, Che Guevara, put it eloquently in one of his previous correspondents on this thread, citations required, sorry to say that what our grandmas told us has no legal ground. The reunification of Somali Republic in 1960 superseded whatever legal status that was unique/governing the two Somali regions, your argument of reclaiming your sovereignty in retrospect is like a married woman who is still claiming to be a virgin. Nevertheless, one thing I disagree with many unionists is that nothing is sacrosanct including that of Somali nation. However, if Somalia is divisible so Somaliland is, no more any less.

 

In addition, the immorality of the secession ideology needs to be exposed, Somalis are very homogeneous, this unique centripetal deserves to capitalized. However, civil wars are part of human nature and inevitable to happen but having reconciliation amongst parties involved is an option, for instance the rainbow nation of South Africa moved on, even though what happened there was not even comparable to what happened in Somalia, clearly some of your grievances could be addressed more fairly, had you been chosen to deliver them in the proper channels.

 

20 years on and the caravan is still in motion, destination is getting more remote than ever. I wonder if there is a deadline when my friend Mr. Odweyne and like-minded chaps care smelling the coffee, may be 20 more years needed as it took to many intellectual thinkers and analysts of Somaliland to realize that their quest of recognition depends on other Somalis, in another words, the solution to Somaliland’s problem must be found onshore not offshore as the problem of the pirates in the high seas is.