Khayr Posted December 27, 2003 Salaamz, Just wanted to ask a question to the nomads here. What determines the value of something i.e What determines the value of an IDEA, OBJECT,a PERSON ETC.??? For example, if u have $100 and u are in the middle of the desert and have a hat with u, and u go to a village to ask for some water. Now, the sun is blazing in that village and the people hardly having any clothing and little water but they are willing to give u some water. So u tell them that u have $100 and they opt for the HAT. Well whats more valuable-$100 or the HAT? Why did the villagers take the HAT instead of the $100? I think that its b/c the HAT was more VALUED to them b/c of what could do or SHOULD DO. Which is protect a head from the blistering sunlight. Hence, the PURPOSE of the Hat. So coming back to my questions earlier, What determines Values in our lives??? Fi Amanallah Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paragon Posted December 29, 2003 Kheyr, good question sxb. I suppose value is derivative from the need for satisfaction. Much value can be attached to certain objects not because of their market value, but rather their effectiveness in satisfying our needs. Money is not wealth. It is just a medium used to measure the value of exchanged goods. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khayr Posted December 29, 2003 Salaamz, I suppose value is derivative from the need for satisfaction Well were does this need for satisfaction arise from? Much value can be attached to certain objects not because of their market value, but rather their effectiveness in satisfying our needs. /QUOTE] Satisfying needs Some people argue that we are 'infinitely' greedy as humans always wanting more and more. Well the question is- WHAT SATISFIES HUMANS THE MOST? WHAT CAN SATISFY US AS HUMANS? Keep in mind my orginal line of questioning What determines Values in our lives??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Abdulladiif Al-Fiqih Posted December 29, 2003 I think the Circumstance does! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paragon Posted December 30, 2003 Kheyr... sxb ... I will come back to you soon. Mar aan enough time haysto. I like this topic Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mowgli Posted December 31, 2003 Asalaama Alaikum Very good question brother. What dertermines value? As Jamaal already mentioned, it is about satisfaction...humans love instant gratification and satisfaction, many cannot see beyond the present...as demostrated in Khayr little scenario. The man that wants water, is only thinking about his instant satisfaction, because as soon as he quenches his thirst, it will be HIS head that the "blistering" sun shines on. But beacuse he was thinking about ONLY the present, he could not see beyond that and prepare himself against it. Let´s take for example a simple scenario...you come home from work feeling extremely hungry, saying you could eat a horse...then you make yourself a huge plate of food and you over eat thinking only of the present without paying attention to the consequences, such as feeling sick and bloated afterwards...then begin to wish you hadn´t done that What can satisfy humans? Satisfaction is only about fulfilling your desire just for that one fleeting moment of pleasure...it is about selfishness because satisfaction is about fulfilling your own needs and wants. Let me talk about Maslow for a second... He established a hierachy of needs. At the very bottom was Physiological Needs; these are simple needs such as food, water, shelter. If these feelings are not fulfilled, we are left with pain, irritation, discomfort etc. The second on the pyramid is safety and security, this means having stability such as security of a home, or family. However if there are things wrong within a family, it prevents them from moving onto the next level e.g if a wife has an abusive husband she cannot move to the next level of love and belonginess as she is in constant fear. The third part of the pyramid is Love and belonging. Maslow believed that humans had a need to belong to something, a group, to be loved and appreciated by others *not in a sexual way*. But after accomplishing all these things, does it stop there??? No Fourtly come the Esteem level. Esteem in the since that, one you have gained a skill, mastered something not many can or affording something others cannot...its again the need to be appreciated and recognised. The final pryamid is Self acutalisation. This is where one has accomplished everything else and is now just trying to be the best, reaching his or her full potential. I´ve read somewhere, where this man put another level, this time it was Spirtual he said something along the lines that humans what peace and understanding, to be surrounded by love, deep love, which can be achieved through religion. Another example is from Christopher Marlowe´s play Faustus. For those who are unfamiliar with the play, it is basically about a very eduacted man, who has mastered everything that there is to learn, medicine, law, philosophy, religion etc he finds them all unfullingly petty. To cut a long story short he finally settles on the art of "necromancy", and so he sells his soul to the devil for in return of "four and twenty years" of Faustus doing as he pleases and having the ablitiy to command spirits. When one looks at it, 24yrs is not a lot throughout the course of the play, when his years are coming to a close, Faustus continuously talks about repenting, but never does, he never acheives anything, other then preforming cheap tricks for a pregnant lady, embarassing the pope etc. Even when he reaches his final hour, he does not repent, instead he sits there one moment he is begging time to slow down, the next he is imploring Christ for mercy. One moment he is crying out in fear and trying to hide from the wrath of God, the next he is begging to have the eternity of hell lessened somehow. He curses his parents for giving birth to him, in all that time he could of been asking for forgiveness, but instead he is thinking about what will happen to him within the hour... This is a classical play showing just how futile the needs and wants of humans are, the fact that they cannot see beyond the present as they are too absorbed in the now and that humans can never really be satisfied we never now when enough is enough. Therefore value is determined by circumstances (as Xarbi already mentioned), it is also determined by the present and our instead gratification. Sorry bout this lool didnt mean to go on and on, hope you can somehow make sense out of all this nonsense. Ma´salaama Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reality Check Posted January 1, 2004 What determines values? For some people its their culture. Others, it is their religion. But whatever it, I think it is your own personal convictions and outlook on life. For example, using the hat example, if you went to any city in america, and you offered a hat or a $100. Most people would opt out of the hat...because they do not need it and 100 would be more valuable for them. Where as if you went to an Imam in some local mosque and offered the same thing, he would take neither because he doesnt need them..and is convinced that Allah will reward him in the akhira...Therefore your personal beliefs=values. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miriam1 Posted January 1, 2004 What determines the value of an object? There is no doubt to me it is the amount of the object that is present and the satisfactoin we gain from it. Example..If u never had mango juice, the first glass would be very valuable to u, it naturally bieng this unique drink, nothing to its likeness existing. But once u get the second, third, fourth and so on of drink the satisfaction gained decreases so its value decreases. I thnk the reason in your example Khayr that the villagers took the hat was not for its purpose, but for its uniquness...for how can one hat protect a whole village. The same reasoning follows why do diamonds cost more than water, an important element to our existence. As Idil describes it, its our nature. Satisfaction is only about fulfilling your desire just for that one fleeting moment of pleasure...it is about selfishness because satisfaction is about fulfilling your own needs and wants. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baashi Posted January 5, 2004 Originally posted by Khayr: WHAT SATISFIES HUMANS THE MOST? WHAT CAN SATISFY US AS HUMANS? Keep in mind my orginal line of questioning What determines Values in our lives??? Kheyr, This is a good one sxb. I’m inclined to say that the inner peace we feel deep down in our hearts determines the value in our lives - the emphasis is ‘in our lives’. I haven’t thought about the subject much but let me fumble with this one. The hat analogy you alluded to is a case in point. Under the demand and supplies economics, the commodity in short supplies will have more value relative to other commodities in abundant supplies. That (market conditions and laws that govern it) is not the indicators that we use to measure the value of our lives. In other words, the quality of our life is a function of the abstract notions such as happiness, freedom, equality, security, sanity, health, and stability. Yet, wealth (money) can only improve and enhance the quality of these social indicators. You see, while the demand and supplies are active variables of the value equation in any given market setting, the constants (or lack of it), which operate entirely on different assumptions, are what guide the consumers - us, the humans. These constants are not derivatives whose values are dependent on variables that fluctuate in the market condition under the control of the upper class (ever heard dumping commodity, price gauging, or monopoly - think HMO’s and the Federal Reserve and how they effect our lives!). However, they rather emanate from an understanding that sees life as a vehicle that follows a pre-ordained path decreed by Omniscient God. Satisfaction in the wisdom and justice in this decree makes all the difference. Adherents of this vision take solace in ‘Sabar’ when in trouble or when the quality of life is as bad as it can get. They do what they can (within the limits of revealed Truth) to improve their lives and ‘tawakal’ Allah whenever things seem beyond reach. In this paradigm, inner peace is the most valuable thing humans can attain in this life. Having inner peace will enhance the value and quality of our lives. Adherents of this paradigm would not buy the ‘naked’ sculpture of David to enhance the quality of their lives. It has no value to them. In the Western paradigm, everything is relative even the value in our lives. The purpose of live is survival. In the race of the ‘survival of the fittest’ and ‘struggle for existence’, the rules, the good and evil, the right and wrong are all relative. The paintings of Mona Lisa or the collections of Picasso or the white glove Michael Jackson wore in the debut of Billie Jean song have much more values (in terms of dollars) than hundred houses that can shelter many homeless folks. Because the top strata have a taste of the fine arts, they explain to us, the possession of these classic artworks enhances both the image and the quality of life, hence behaving that way is what the living large is all about. In pursuit of happiness, even eating the cereal that celebrity of the hour (who seem to make it and now live in the la Vita dolce) says they eat enhances the value in our lives! The Relativism, The Quantum theory, Heisenberg’s Indeterminate Doctrine, the Relativity Theory, and the Principle of Confusion all these drive the ‘no Truth or Falsehood’ idea to home; it all depends on the monitor’s point of view and the framework on which he is making the observation from. We already had our schooling and no contemplation is possible outside the ‘box’. The logic of science that used to offer two values is no longer valid. Relativism not only negates the Newtonian determinism but it introduces a new trilateral logic that has a median value of ‘indeterminism’. Popular culture and scientific literature converged and embraced the relativism it seems - what a force to reckon with! If consumption is what drives the development; and the pursuit of happiness (key ingredient of the quality of life a la western mode) is what drives the consumption itself then the progress failed to cure the most of the humans’ spiritual and psychological ailments. Not only that the progress that supposed to enhance the quality of our lives has introduced new incurable and dangerous ailments but also the cost of the progress (pollution) is downplayed. Under relativism trilateral logic, the cost of human progress in the pursuit of happiness is relative and 'indeterminate'. Hope that makes sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
underdog Posted January 7, 2004 I would say Value is relative to need. It's all a matter of why. Money is always a means to an end. A stack of $100 bills is only as good as what it can buy you. We all have need to consume, it's in our nature. Now the Value of what you need to consume is always greater than things of less interest to you. So in essence, value is determined by how the object can help you fulfill the need. Example if you have a need to drive, a honda accord and a bentley should have the same value, right? Not if your need to make a satement of wealth and oppulence. So value is is determined but the end purpose of your intentions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sophist Posted January 8, 2004 Salamu Alaikum, For a long time have I read something as a calamitous philosophical attempt to define or perhaps to demystify the actuality of value. However, it would be rather off beam if I did not concur certain observation made by two contributors; namely the distinguished young Idil and the sagacious Baashi. Walahi elation was what I felt after reading their poignant points which they have adorned with silky attire—words I have last read when feasting my eyes upon the works of Kant and Alghazali. Enough for the deference, now let us look at the issue with my patent spectacles—not that I wear one normally. I shall not bore you all the metaphysical jargon, I shall be succinct Value in material world is subjective. For example Water is less valuable than diamond. What then determines the value of diamonds? Do diamonds have intrinsic value? Of course the high demand of it and the less supply makes it more “valuable” monetarily wise than the water. Having said that it lacks intrinsic value—In other words without the demand of it; it is worthless. Whereas water is needed because life’s existence depends upon it thus making it a commodity that has intrinsic value. That is all I have add to this topic;; all the other issues have been covered by my learned friends. Thus Spake I Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khayr Posted February 6, 2004 Salaamz, "As Jamaal already mentioned, it is about satisfaction...humans love instant gratification and satisfaction, many cannot see beyond the present..." By Idil Good point walaal, but then what reallys Satisfies Humans? Hint: It starts with DHI (and is two words or can be connected as one word) In the Western paradigm, everything is relative even the value in our lives By Baashi Value in material world is subjective By Sophist Baashi if that is the case in the Western Paradigm, then what is at the other end of the pole! Is their anything ABSOLUTE then (Permanent, Unchanging)? Are their Values that are Absolute (that don't change with time, that are not subject? Hint: Look towards the Past (for the solution) and proceed Forward with caution. For those that might be a little confused, here is an easier question that inshallah is in line with this top- How do you VALUE People/Friends??? To what PURPOSE do they serve in their relationship with you? Fi Amanallah Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paragon Posted February 9, 2004 kheyr asked "but then what reallys Satisfies Humans?" Sxb, I don't think there is any satisfaction for our infinite wants. Only death stops us from wanting, I guess. Idil...good point sis. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khayr Posted February 15, 2004 Salaamz, So then Jamaal, if we can never be satisfied as humans and always want more, then WHY is their the need for REVELATION i.e/ The Quran and Sunnah etc... What is the Purpose of Man? What you are implying then is that we are Without Purpose in life cause nothing can satisfy Insaan/Mankind. Fi Amanallah Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sirrus Posted February 15, 2004 Khayr I am not clear on the exact purpose of your post, was it the VALUE OF MONEY or HUMAN DESIRE. MONEY We all know money is the greatest lie ever invented, it carries no actual value, and there is not enough gold in the world to back it, but it persists because you and I perpetuate the lie. HUMAN DESIRE (poem) Taunting your senses. Driving your thought Devouring your sanity A distant mirage, Once subdued no longer alive. Search after search, Desire after desire A life spent searching for desire. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
