^^^ Meaning her children run about the place and cause havoc now. Or maybe even she’s one of the lucky few and she managed to bomb them all out get them married. She’s not a new mother, saaxib. Sophist, I only played the modern dad role up until my young ones were being delivered in the labour ward. After that she happily allowed me to pass on most things. A couple of months ago, for appearances sake, I had to attend the circumcision my boy (when I say attend, I actually mean go in and hold his hand as the ghastly doctor butchered his bits), it was even more painful than watching him being delivered. These modern dads have a lot to answer for, a lot to answer for...

quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by NGONGE: To start with, what other method of governing are you comparing Democracy to? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sharia led governance. Of course I advocate Islamic state. In an Islamic state, people do have a free voice in their government. What they don't have is the power to overrule policies that protect, preserve, and strengthen society. What’s the point of having a free voice if that free voice does not allow you to change things? And, these ‘policies’ that ‘protect, preserve and strengthen’ society, what are they exactly? Are we talking policies introduced by the government here or the rules of god? quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by NGONGE: Maybe we need to agree on the definition of democracy and morality first. I’m not sure I fully understand what you’re getting at there. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Speaking for myself, I am discussing this with Islamic principles in mind. We all know where we should derive our morality from. There is no way to derive morality outside of God because God is, means, expresses, and verifies morality. You don’t think goodness is a characteristic of humans regardless of whether they believe in god or not? You see, my contention is that morality is not something exclusive to me, you or the next-door Jew. Goodness, ethics and morals can be found anywhere and amongst any people. Morality existed before Islam and the faith (as the prophet pbuh) told us came to complement these. Nonetheless, that’s neither here nor there in our discussion. You are advocating for the complete Islamic state and nobody (who is Muslim) can disagree with you there. However, when you set out to compare existing democracies to phantom Islamic states one wonders if it’s a fair comparison. As for democracy defined by Westerners, it isn't purely the concept of giving everyone a free voice in their governance, but actually letting any person, whether they be illiterate, ignorant, obsessive, imbalanced, poor-intentioned, selfish, greedy, or etc. influence society (Bush anyone?) Furthermore, the electoral process is one of the biggest problems with Democracy, as elections become a testament not to strenght of ideas but of how much money someone has to get elected. This puts national policy in the hands of the wealthy or the most committed, active special interest group. This can be remedied if these people tried a bit of honesty and transparency. How can we guarantee that the same problems that are damaging democracy will not raise their ugly heads in an Islamic state? What is there to stop an Islamic ruler (are we talking Khalifa here by the way?) from abusing his powers? What will stop his chosen ministers, civil servants and governors from abusing their powers? Is it a case of total trust from our side? Is it because ‘waxa la yedhi’ so and so is a good man? Isn’t that the same as PR/Propaganda for interest groups to have their chosen ‘mullah’ installed as Khalifa/ruler/governor? Lets take a break from the argument for a bit and let me talk to you about shopping. Ever bought something for IKEA? A table, a cupboard or a cabinet? When I normally get one of those, I try to put it together first, stand back to admire my handy work and then invite others to pass judgment on my purchase. I might forget a bolt or two (as you do) but, usually; you can assemble these things without using all the bolts and screws anyway. The people looking at it might like it or dislike it but they can’t at all deny that this cupboard or table has been well constructed. Now back to your argument above. This table of yours is probably well constructed but, to me, it looks like the legs are pointing upwards.

Originally posted by Cambarro: I assert that the least moral countries in the world are almost always found in Democracies. In democracies, families are breaking down, children are neglected, sexual perversions are widespread. Due to the principle of "voting" definition of right and wrong, Democracies lack the capacity to provide moral leadership. Morality is dictated by the "mob"; mob mentality is primitive and bestial. Is that really a superior form of government? In fact, hasn't history shown us that Democracy always leads to the self-destruction of the culture, to be promptly replaced by much more efficient and effective dictatorial governments? (Greece, Rome, etc). Not sure that you’ve given a coherent critique of Democracy there, Cambo. To start with, what other method of governing are you comparing Democracy to? Almost all countries in the world claim to be democracies of sorts. Are you talking about Western democracies only? What will you regard African countries like Uganda and Zimbabwe as? With their high occurrence of Aids and other sexual diseases, would you still assert that they’re more moral than democracies? With their torture, abuse of human rights, abuse of women, cruelty to animals, promiscuity and the dozen other faults that they have, would you still say that their form of government is what determines their morality? How about China, North Korea or even the Arab world? Maybe we need to agree on the definition of democracy and morality first. I’m not sure I fully understand what you’re getting at there.

Ah! Got you. But would still like to know who made the 'second' confirmation. Surely the 'secessionist mafia' are not silly enough to confess that they have tortured the sheikh! Didn’t you know that Somaliland was supposed to be a democracy (supposed being the operative word)? Are you sure of your sources?

Her: Oh doctor, I'm in trouble. Him: Well, goodness gracious me. Her: For every time a certain man Is standing next to me. Him: Mmm? Her: A flush comes to my face And my pulse begins to race, It goes boom boody-boom boody-boom boody-boom Boody-boom boody-boom boody-boom-boom-boom, Him: Oh! Her: Boom boody-boom boody-boom boody-boom Him: Well, goodness gracious me. Him: How often does this happen? When did the trouble start? You see, my stethoscope is bobbing To the throbbing of your heart. Her: What kind of man is he To create this allergy? It goes boom boody-boom boody-boom boody-boom Boody-boom boody-boom boody-boom-boom-boom, Him: Oh! Her: Boom boody-boom boody-boom boody-boom Him: Well, goodness gracious me. Him: From New Delhi to Darjeeling I have done my share of healing, And I've never yet been beaten or outboxed, I remember that with one jab Of my needle in the Punjab How I cleared up beriberi And the dreaded dysentery, But your complaint has got me really foxed. Her: Oh. Her: Oh doctor, touch my fingers. Him: Well, goodness gracious me. Her: You may be very clever But however, can't you see, My heart beats much too much At a certain tender touch, It goes boom boody-boom boody-boom boody-boom Boody-boom boody-boom boody-boom-boom-boom, Him: I like it! Her: Boom boody-boom boody-boom boody-boom Him: Well, goodness gracious me. Him: Can I see your tongue? Her: Aaah. Him: Nothing the matter with it, put it away please. Her: Maybe it's my back. Him: Maybe it is. Her: Shall I lie down? Him: Yes. Her: Ahhh... Source --------------------------------- I think I need to see a doctor :cool:

^^^ The story was. But it was all about that infamous video and most discussions were about it being a real video or a fake one. We never got to the part where we confirmed that the man in the video was the actual sheikh and that he was indeed being tortured. Now you tell me that it’s been confirmed, and I believe you, but being the finicky kind that I am wouldn’t mind you directing me to a link that corroborates that. Juje/Jujo Answer my question if you can and spare me the weak sarcasm, son. It was a genuine question.

North, Recently, you’ve picked up a very bad habit of posting articles without giving the links or sources of those articles, saaxib. Fix up! Kashafa my boy, Patience, son, patience. This bad habit of yours of always jumping the gun blinds you to the good news and the benefits of such a ruling. Take a step back and have a good look at this situation, son. It’s beautiful, is it not? When an overzealous mullah comes to me and says ‘ceeb, ceeb, ceeb’, usually, my initial reaction is to tell him to go away and spare me the lectures. I suspect I’m not alone in this. Subtle types of persuasion are what works on most people. Orders, bans and threats hardly ever work. And that’s why, like someone rejecting the rebukes of an ardent mullah, the reaction of most Moroccans (even the wayward ones amongst them) is likely to be a rejection of this ban. Of course, it all depends on the severity of this rejection. Morocco is a Muslim country and therefore, in a debate about this ban those arguing for the reinstating of prayer privileges will occupy the moral high ground. If they argue their case cleverly and coherently (most of all peacefully) they’re bound to get the entire population on their side and force the government (King) to cancel such a ban. It will also set a future precedent and boundaries that the government will dare not cross. However, if they do the usual hand wringing, chest beating, Kashafa threats they’ll only be accused of being terrorists and allow the propagandist to say “Look! Look at these terrorists demonstrating, burning cars and violating the tranquillity and peace of our land. They are terrorists, troublemakers and enemies of the state, etc, etc”. All of a sudden, the argument about the ban on praying will be forgotten and a new debate about the ‘Islamist menace’ in Morocco will start. Lets hope it’s the former and not the latter.

^^^ Has it been confirmed that the person in that video was the alleged sheikh? I’m surprised not to have seen any threads on here about that topic!

^^^ Pass the ball, pass the ball.

Heh. I love the way that one minute you support the Courts and the next you’re talking about a Somalia that would tolerate me and my pink (what a ghastly colour) wearing boyfriend! The numbers don’t add up, saaxib. What you’ve just given me, with respect of course, is nothing but a load of sentimental balderdash. Wake yourself up from this awful nightmare that you’re mistaking for a dream. Burn a flag or two like your beloved Courts did. You see, those boys got the right idea. It’s work that matters, it’s proper ideas and dreams that matter. It’s action that matters. A redundant piece of cloth makes no difference to anything or anyone. Your emotional outburst here is either convincingly bogus or extremely delusional. Ps You were warned about me? Don’t listen to the rumourmongers, saaxib. Next they’ll tell you I’m pretty opinionated and argumentative. Little old me!

MMA, first of all one needs to understand if you’re complaining about this in your capacity as a moderator or poster. If a moderator then none of this is open for discussion and I expect you to ignore my following words. However, if it is open for discussion and you are voicing your distaste as an ordinary member of this forum then I would love to hear the reasons behind your tantrum. A flag is nothing but a piece of cloth that is given significance by those using it. As you are well aware, in the past, flags were used for many different reasons. They were used as forms of identification for certain groups (pirates, etc). They were used in battle to inform the troops that their side is still standing (or even winning), when the flag fell and nobody picked it up then those at the back would know that their side have lost the battle! Ships used flags so that approaching ships in the vast empty oceans would recognise them and know what country they represented, etc. Nowadays, however, the main usage of flags is to identify nations (that’s if we ignore all the little flags that football clubs, Organisations and even businesses have). Many nations view the flag as that which represents everything that is GOOD about the state. They use it as something that shows and clearly displays their sense of patriotism. Many would incorporate a national symbol in that flag to show the uniqueness of that nation (Lebanon’s cedar tree, Saudi Arabia’s sword, etc). A people that are united, organized and peaceful would treat the flag as the ultimate demonstration of that unity. A nation that has been invaded would regard the flag as the last part that has not been conquered and would use it as the driving force behind regaining control of occupied lands. A country that is at the summit of world power would treat its flag as being the greatest expression of such power. In Somalia’s case, that picture that you dispute, in today’s conditions at least, would represent the correct expression of the Somali state of affairs. The flag has been chewed and spat out by various Somalis (and former Somalis, as is the case with qudac above) that it’s actually refreshing to see someone expressing this harsh truth with no shame or embarrassment. For when the actual people, country and land are being savaged, pillared and humiliated what is the point of a pipe dream like a flag. A flag is nothing but a statues symbol. Like a rich man that buys the latest Ferrari or marries the prettiest girl that also happens to be twenty years his junior, or installing a swimming pool in his house! A flag is the last thing the Somalis of today need to worry about. Just as the saying about the drowning man not worrying about wetting his nice clothes goes, so should today’s Somali never worry about a shabby flag! For if a flag is a total representation of a nation coined in a piece of cloth then it really stands to reason that this flag should only be displayed as a bit of vomit. Because, truly, one can’t help feeling sick and nauseous about today’s Somalia. Maybe we should discard the fake patriotism and show our dissatisfaction with today’s Somalia by all borrowing that image from qudac.

Caaqil, The millions whose lives were wrecked by the warlords were celebrating the forming of the TFG only eighteen months ago, saaxib. In that light alone, one can conclude that they would welcome peace by any means (ICU, TFG or even benevolent warlords). It’s not beyond the realms of possibility that there are those that despise the ICU for no specific reason than that it was started by a particular clan. Those people will still hate the ICU even if that group eventually turned Somalia into the best and most powerful country on earth. Still, there are many others that don’t care for such hatred and are only interested in peace and progress. Look around you in this site and you’ll see many from other parts of Somalia (Somaliland, Puntland, etc) that support the ICU. They do because they believe that this group’s intentions are purely, totally and completely Islamic! This might be true ( I sincerely hope it is) but for the moment, and unless you’re in the ‘know’, only an extremely optimistic person (with very bad memory) would afford them anything more than cautious support. Granted that, sometimes, emotional tidal waves of goodwill carry movements, people and ideologies along to safety. It’s very possible that the cheer optimism and total conviction of the ordinary Somalis will help in turning the ICU dream into observable reality (and that I have no problem with). However, for now, and as a sane person, I can’t help but ask the questions that need to be asked and that I put forward when the TFG was put in place or the TNG or even when the previous government of the Republic of Somalia was toppled. That the ICU came along donning a religious garb gives these questions even more importance and magnitude. Right now, the ICU are busy having a war of words with the TFG (and a one-sided one with Ethiopia). This is very distracting and, still, tells me nothing about the goals, aims and plans of the ICU. I’m sure it has not escaped your attention that people are comparing them to the Afghani Taliban! Are they and if they’re not, how are they different? What Islamic model do they propose to use when they’re in control of the whole of Somalia? Will they be joining the Untied Nations or will they stand on their own feet? How about debts, the economy, capitalism, globalisation and the way the world is run these days? Will they join the human race or will they isolate Somalia along the lines of religious principles? Note that I don’t ask these questions because I want them to do these things, the questions are put forward to know what sort of government the ICU will be and how the country will be run. Again, I repeat, bringing peace alone to the capital is not enough (in the longer term). One has to understand their plans and strategies before one could fully support them. Iran is an Islamic Republic but I don’t agree with nor support the Iranian model. Saudi Arabia is an Islamic Kingdom but I don’t support nor agree with the Saudi model. What will Somalia be and how? Ps NGONGE was a name of a friend of mine.

You can get it from any book shop along the Edgeware Road. Or, if you're extra nice and leave your address in PM I can post you my copy (assuming that you're male of course. Females get the phone number).

^^^ Never heard of him. Who he? And what does he write about? The last book I read was two days ago. It was an Egyptian novel called ‘Jacobin Building’ about the residents of an old building in Cairo (they made a film about it). It was not bad though I was disappointed by the dull and direct style of writing. The author could have stretched it to five hundred or a thousand pages instead of the three hundred he had. It was the first novel I read in Arabic in more than twelve years! The one before that was Moby Dick. I’ve been trying to finish reading that book for years and still can’t get into it. The author has an annoying way of digressing into little unrelated stories that I keep giving up every time I start.

RC, The Courts are the flavour of the month nowadays. It’s not difficult to understand why people are supporting them. Deep in my heart of hearts I too wish, pray and hope that they turn out to be what they claim to be. However, I’m doubtful, cynical and unsure about them. What increases my unease about this whole thing is that in the few months that the ICU have been hogging the Somali political scene their loyal supporters have not sought to enlighten us about them or draw us a solid picture of how they expect them to maintain the peace in Somalia. Everything I’ve heard so far has been done as a reaction to events and not as part of a proper plan and suitable strategy! Whenever I read what the understandable questions that those opposing the courts have asked, I always saw he same old replies: The courts have brought peace and order, etc. Yet, I know and you know that this is not enough. After all, this is exactly the same argument that I’ve been having with the Somaliland people about that country. They too used the argument of peace and order and how different they were from the rest of Somalia! When one removes emotions out of the equation, peace and order alone is not enough. Those in Somaliland had it for sixteen years and still did not get any recognition! I always believed that the reason for that was the lack of a coherent strategy and I suspect that the downfall of the Courts will also come as a result of a lack of strategy. Then again, maybe I’m wrong and maybe there is a real plan in play that we are not being told about! Like I said in a previous thread already, give the Courts eighteen months and if they’re still in the ascendancy then they’ll be worth one’s support and if they’re not, well, we await the next new group to claim authority over Somalia. In any case, and getting to your original argument, I see nothing wrong with talking about the Islamic Courts in the Islam section. One suspects that the author’s aim here is to discuss the issue from an Islamic prospective and not through the use of secular (for lack of another term) yardsticks. You, I and others could easily make him sweat without the need to resort to disparaging comments about his position as moderator or accusations of propaganda. Ps I don’t think King wants anyone to really burn in hell here. It’s merely a figure of speech to display his dissatisfaction. Lets not pay too much attention to the words or take them literally, boys and girls.

Seeker, whatever he was he was a great story teller. Even without understanding the French, War and Peace remains one of the greatest books ever written.

^^^ Heh. Where the hell did you get that song from? Next you'll be colouring us bad As for the topic, don't panic people, don't panic. Waxa la yedhi that the girls being attacked were American spies trying to snuff out excited Eid El Feter celebrators in case they turn out to be future terrorists. ps NORTH, You got it wrong about the Egyptian police. They actually have a division called 'Police Al Adaab' that deals with these issues and arrests anyone that breaks the law (unless that someone has some good connections of course). I remember a few years ago when a shed load of teenagers were arrested for worshipping the devil! They really were only Rock & Roll fans but the government and the police were having none of it and spread the story about devil worship (by order of Hosni himself). It took a long while for the families to get their children out.

Originally posted by Sophist: NGONE! Ma anigaad ila soo doonatey sarcasmkaagii iila timi ina abtoow? Cambaro, thanks for your contribution on this thread. Adigoo kale waa loo baahan yahay, maxaa yeeley runtii qof aqooneed ayaad tahay. Be well. Heh. No sarcasm at all. I’ve received complimentary reports about you and I’m merely spreading the word, saaxib.

As I write this article, the entire Somalia, save for Somaliland in the north, is under the control of the Islamic Courts . In any case, Somaliland broke way from the South as soon as Siad Barre bade farewell to his countrymen in the early 1990s. Is that true, Puntland people? :eek:

I’m not a great follower of Somali politics and have been watching this ICU story from a distance mostly. Still, I disagree with your conclusion (if not your analysis). From all they’ve done so far it’s very clear that the Courts have managed to keep their Unity and stick to their goals. I really can’t see them veering away from that now that the job is half way there (I exaggerate I know) and the finish line is in sight. Your analysis is probably true and there is a division in the Courts. But I strongly doubt that these cracks will start to show anytime soon. Right now, all those in the Courts (extremists or moderates) are focused on defeating, isolating and overcoming the TFG (and others). It’s not in their interest to start internal squabbles or dividing of the booty. The only way I see any such division taking place is if it were one to do with clannish agendas or worries. But then again, everyone keeps telling us that the big boys in the Courts are all from the same clan! Give them the usual eighteen months that every new power in Somalia has before it collapses, saaxib. If they have not taken over all of Somalia by then, I doubt if they’ll ever will.

Originally posted by Cambarro: "Activism will only succeed when it remembers that a misplaced rigorism is less dangerous than an improper liberalism." ---Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad. If I understood this in the context of this debate then I beg your pardon when I say NONESENSE, sister. These speeches, comments and throwaway words are great but they do not at all tell us anything. There is such a thing as a middle ground. There is such a thing as balance and proportion. One can’t praise excessive rigour and condemn extreme liberality. They’re both harmful and are two sides to the same coin. There are problems and faults in the Muslim world today. One cannot deny them or try to brush them aside. The popular cry, when dealing with this fault, has been the call to return to the faith! Yet, this has not been a new idea or proposal. We’ve been calling people to return to the faith since the day the faith was revealed! On it’s own it becomes pointless, empty and meaningless. How that return to the faith going to be achieved is more important than simple chants and labels. On the issue of total rigour versus complete liberality, let me remind you of a saying the first Umayyad Khalifa (Mu'awiya) made famous. When he was asked how, as a ruler, do you keep your people happy? He replied with his famous ‘dividing hair’ strategy. He said (and I translate and paraphrase here) “I act as if there is a single hair that links me to the people: when they pull, I loosen my grip and when they loosen I pull. Always making sure that the hair never splits”.

There are couple of nomads missing after Ramadan as well. What happened to our sister Rahima? Waxa la yedhi, she was last seen leading a brigade of women fighters round the outskirts of Puntland.

It’s the cycle of life, baby. The place reached maturity and, as you know, big people always talk politics and faith. Anyway, don’t knock it just yet. Most of it is exciting stuff. Go and post your opinion on my Misyar Marriage thread or on Nur’s multiple-wives thread. PS Welcome back. But like a swarm of flies that follow a piece of cake, I have a strong feeling the Barro family shall appear on this thread any minute now.

Originally posted by Femme: [[Why guilty? It's just a film!]] Because the guy prances around half naked in the movie and the jew is making fun of a predomnately muslim country! :@ I shouldn't support that by paying my hard earned money to watch it. Get it. :"@ He’s making fun of America not Kazakhstan. It’s not even all Americans he’s making fun of; it’s the ones that believe some of the nonsense he comes up with. And what’s with referring to him as ‘the Jew’? That putdown is way beneath you, baboon.

^^^^The Kazakh government condemned him at first and mobilised a huge public relations campaign to show what a great country it was. I think they’ve given up now (remember, Borat has been around for at least three years). Heh. North, you’re the one in the Middle East, saaxib. I’m reading The Times here.