Thats a bit odd, so what were Somalis? Cave people? Yah! lets leave it at that now, iyaah? lol

"I always say "asalamu calaikum" when I see a somalian person. Last, I came across an old lady and greeted her. She gave me a dirty look and walked past. "" Lol Suban ... Wa calaykum waSalaam.

Religions gaining prominence eh? lol nice article Shujui --- I don't know why I haven't seen it b4. I had seminar presentation along this line and I could have used to build a strong arguement. As obvious this topic draws much attention than many others. Thankx bro.

Thomas Malthus' Theory on Population. Thomas Malthus's studies on the growth of population led to the development of the field of demography. According to Malthus, population tends to increase faster than the supply of food available for its needs. Whenever a relative gain occurs in food production over population growth, a higher rate of population increase is stimulated; on the other hand if population grows too much relative to food production, the growth is checked by famine, disease, and war. Malthus's theory contradicted the optimistic belief prevailing in the early 19th century, that a society's fertility would lead to economic progress. He advocated sexual abstinence or restraint to control population increases and acknowledged the role of the plagues, wars, and epidemics in containing overpopulation. Malthus specifically suggested that people marry later and have smaller families. Due to these ideas, economics earned its name as "The Dismal Science". But it won considerable support and was often used as an argument against efforts to better the condition of the poor. Source: click here Further reading visit: Thomas Malthus: Theory of over population

Very interesting article conquest, thanks walaahi

Clint Eastwood - "Do I feel lucky or do you punk!" Jack Nickleson - "I imagine women as men, but take away responsibility and accoutability"

NGONGE .. let me ask you, which country do you exactly come from, or in which country were you brought up?

Bad idea to let him go. Ask him what he exactly means with 'unfinished business'. It won't hurt. No need guessing what excuses he has.

Intepration of a given culture depends on the environment in which one is raised. Maybe we should define what culture is to certain people and then remark on it.

Actually after thinking deeper, I think I know the real culprit. OG-Moti walks like one. The Nomad, sorry son you aint hanging. The judge seems to be in favour of you. Why don't we put on trial OG-Moti and Darman horta?

"waar orod is aas" lol I just might!

double post! Talking of doubles, are you familiar with the Orwellian 'Double-Think'? I try to adopt that method sometimes and give 'some' credence to Western philosophers but mine is always of paramount importance. I like to hear what living men say not the deceased. I am still awaiting your response to my first post. I will do as I promised. J11/Cali: Oh! I see you seem to know me. Have we met, I wonder!

^^^ you gone hang son!

If ethios give back what is mine and pay compensation to the crimes they have committed against my people, then i might think of not disliking them. I don't hate ethios i disdain them!

ut if visualize the ending you should hopefully be okay. Lol ... I will try to visualize but what if I can't? Am i er...you know, ahem.. doomed?

To conclude what could be a long argument short, your shortcoming is not that you are too familiar with philosophy; it is that you are not familiar with anything else. I think this has always been the source of my intolerance towards philosophers as well as amateur philosophers. Allaa Yacizak postman! Mutakalim, Brother I am more interested in your intellects than I am into a non-Somali. You are my brother and hearing or reading you speak your independent mind is a triumph to me. Insteading of building on faulty foundation laid by a faulty mind of a westerner, I wish you to build on your own sound foundation. We have to - as Somalis - generate and create intellectualism amongst ourselves. Afterall, no one needs deep thinking more than us -Somalis. We can talk about dreams and learn how to form a set of agreed knowledge on this specific subject, so that we can apply the same metholodogy to other matters of much concern and importance. If we don't do that this moment then our fate hangs in the balance of two oblivions.

You have to think of something or a problem that would affect adversly every ordinary Somali. Killing warlords and figure-heads wouldn't affect many Somalis, only a closed circle. What can affect and pain all of us? If you get an asnwer to that question then you have a revolution of the minds. When I say something that affects everyone I mean affects everyone directly and in the most painful way. Something evil would do. Note: Sometimes people are more united in wicked ways than in good deeds.

The deed is done, so let the sentence commence your honour. I (the electric chair operator or the noose whichever prefered) humbly stands guard to see to it that Lakkad is executed if he is guilty! I'd like to see VEVE hang!

Deep Thinking Those who remember Allah, standing, sitting, and lying on their sides, and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth: "O Lord, You have not created this for nothing. Glory be to You! So safeguard us from the punishment of the Fire." (Surat Al 'Imran: 191) Chaptor one Deep Thinking - by Harun Yahya... ( I found this article interesting.) Most people think that in order to "think deeply", one needs to put one's head between one's hands, withdraw to an empty room, and isolate oneself from all other people and affairs. Indeed, they make such a big thing of "thinking deeply" that they find it too difficult, and conclude that it is a quality exclusive to "philosophers". However, as we stated in the introduction, Allah summons people to reflect and says that He has revealed the Qur'an for people to reflect on it: "It is a book We have sent down to you, full of blessing, so let people of intelligence ponder its signs and take heed." (Surah Sad: 29) What is important is one's sincerely improving one's ability to think and going deeper in thinking. On the other hand, people who do not spend effort to that end continue their lives in deep "heedlessness". The word heedlessness has connotations like "neglectfulness without forgetting, abandoning, being mistaken, disregarding, being careless". The heedless state of those who do not reflect is a consequence of forgetting or deliberately disregarding the purpose of their creation and of the realities which religion teaches. Yet, this is an extremely dangerous course that may lead to hell. Correspondingly, Allah has warned people against being among the heedless: Remember your Lord in yourself humbly and fearfully, without loudness of voice, morning and evening. Do not be of the heedless ones. (Surat al-A'raf: 205) Warn them of the day of bitter regret when the affair will be resolved. But they take no notice and they do not believe. (Surah Maryam: 39) In the Qur'an, Allah refers to people who reflect and who, after reflecting conscientiously, see the truth and therefore fear Him. Allah says that those who blindly follow their fathers without thinking, out of tradition, are wrong. When asked, these people say that they are religious and believe in Allah, yet, since they do not think, they do not amend their conduct from fear of Allah. In the following verses, the mentality of these people is clearly laid out: Say: "To whom does the earth belong, and everyone in it, if you have any knowledge?" They will say: "To Allah." Say: "So will you not pay heed?" Say: "Who is the Lord of the Seven Heavens and the Lord of the Mighty Throne?" They will say: "Allah." Say: "So will you not have taqwa?" (Taqwa: Awe or fear of Allah, which inspires a person to be on guard against wrong action and eager for actions which please Him.) Say: "In whose hand is the dominion over everything, He who gives protection and from whom no protection can be given, if you have any knowledge?" They will say: "Allah's." Say: "So how have you been bewitched?" The fact is that We have given them the truth and they are liars. (Surat al-Muminun: 84-90) Thinking Removes the Spell on People In the above verse, Allah asks people, "So how have you been bewitched?" The word "bewitched" in the verse implies a state of mental numbness that takes control of people as a whole. An unthinking person's mind is benumbed, his sight becomes fuzzy, he acts as if he does not see the facts before his eyes, and his faculty of judgement weakens. He becomes incapable of grasping even a plain truth. He cannot be fully conscious of extraordinary events taking place right beside him. He does not notice the intricate details of events. The reason for people's leading heedless lives for thousands of years and their staying away from thought as a whole, as if it is merely a cultural heritage, is actually this mental numbness. We can explain one of the outcomes of this collective spell with an example: Beneath the earth's surface lies a "boiling stratum" called magma. The crust of the earth is very thin, which implies that this blaze is very close to us, almost under our feet. In order to have a better understanding of how thin the earth's crust is we can make a comparison: the thickness of the earth's crust in proportion to the whole earth can be compared to the thickness of apple peel in proportion to the whole apple. Everyone knows that there is a stratum boiling at very high temperatures right beneath the earth's surface, but does not think much about it. This is because their parents, brothers, relatives, friends, neighbours, the journalists of the newspapers they read, TV programme producers and their university professors do not think about it either. Let us try to make you think over this a little. Let us assume that a person, having lost his memory, tries to learn about his surroundings by asking questions of everyone around him. This person would first ask where he is. What would he think if he was told that beneath the ground he stands on lies a globe of boiling fire and that these flames could gush out of the earth's surface in the event of a strong earthquake or a volcanic eruption? Let us go further and suppose that this person was told that this world is simply a small planet and it floats in an infinite dark void called space and that space contains even greater dangers than the substratum of the earth. For example, meteors weighing tons freely move around in it. There is no reason why they should not alter their courses, perhaps because of some gravitational influence from another planet, and collide with the earth. Surely, that person would not be able to forget, even for a moment, the risky situation he is in. He would investigate how people lead their lives in such an environment to which they hang on by the skin of their teeth. He would realise that a flawless system has been brought into being. The inside of the planet on which he lives contains great danger, yet very delicate balances prevent this danger from harming people, except in unusual circumstances. The person who realises this understands that the earth and all creatures on it live and continue their existence in safety only by the will of Allah, owing to the flawless balance He has created. This example is only one of millions, even billions of examples upon which people need to ponder. Giving another example will be useful to help us understand how heedlessness affects people's faculty of thought and restrains their intellectual capacity. People know that the life of this world passes away and ends very rapidly, yet still, they behave as if they will never leave this world. They act as if there is no death in the world. This, indeed, is a kind of "spell" carried over from generation to generation. This has such a strong effect that when someone talks about death, people immediately close the subject for fear of breaking the spell on them and facing the realities. People who have spent their entire lives in order to buy fine houses, summer residences and cars, and to send their children to good colleges, do not want to think that one day they will die and that they will not be able to take their cars, their houses, or children with them. Consequently, rather than beginning to do something for the real life after death, they choose not to think. However, everyone, sooner or later, will definitely die and after one dies, whether one believes it or not, the eternal life will begin for everyone. Whether this eternal life will be spent in paradise or in hell depends on what one has done in the short life of this world. While such is the plain truth, the only reason why people behave as if death does not exist is this spell that has covered them up because they do not think. Those who cannot, by thinking, save themselves from this spell and therefore from a heedless state, will understand the facts by seeing them with their eyes after they die. Allah communicates this fact in the Qur'an: You were heedless of this, so We have stripped you of your covering and today your sight is sharp. (Surah Qaf: 22) As Allah says in the verse, the sight which here is blurred because of not thinking, will be "sharp" at the time when the person gives account in the hereafter after death. It should be pointed out that people deliberately impose on themselves such a spell. They suppose that by doing so they will live restful and relaxed lives. However, it is very easy for anyone to make a decision and shake off this mental numbness, and begin to live with a clear consciousness. Allah has presented the solution to people; people who reflect can dispel this enchantment while they are in the world. They thus come to understand that all events have a purpose and an inner meaning, and are able to see wisdom in the events that Allah creates at every instant. One can Think at Anytime and Anywhere Such a crowd makes one reflect upon Allah's unique vast creation. Since the moment the world came into existence, Allah has created billions of human faces, all different from each other. There is no time, place or condition necessary for thought. Anyone may think while walking on the street, going to the office, driving a car, working at the computer, attending a friend's gathering, watching TV or having lunch. While driving a car, for example, it is possible to see hundreds of people outdoors. He who looks at these people can think about many different things. It may come to his mind that the physical appearances of these hundreds of people are completely different. None of these people look like one another. It is astonishing that, although these people share basically similar organs such as eyes, eyebrows, eyelashes, hands, arms, legs, mouths and noses, they all look so different from one another. Thinking a little further, one remembers the following: Allah has created billions of people over thousands of years all different from one another. This certainly is a piece of evidence of what a superior and mighty Creator Allah is. The person watching all these people rushing may be occupied by many different thoughts. At first glance, each one of these people seems like a "distinct" individual. Every one of them has his own world, wishes, plans, ways of living, topics that make him happy or unhappy, and tastes. Yet these differences are misleading. In general, every human being is born, grows up, goes to school, looks for a job, works, marries, has children, sends the children to school, marries them off, ages, becomes a grandmother or grandfather and finally passes away. From this point of view, there are no big differences between people's lives. Whether one lives in a neighbourhood in Istanbul or in a Mexican city does not change anything at all. All of these people will definitely die one day. A century later, perhaps not even one of these people will be alive. The person who realises all this, carries on thinking and asks himself the following questions: "Since all of us will die one day, why do everybody act as if they will never depart from this world? While a person, whose death is certain, ought to strive for his life after death, how is it that almost all people behave as if their lives in this world will never end?" Such a person is one who thinks and reaches a very crucial conclusion from what he thinks. A great majority of people do not think about these issues. If they are suddenly asked, "what are you thinking at the moment?" it will be seen that they think extremely unnecessary things that will not be of much use to them. However, man is able to"think" "meaningful", "wise" and "important" subjects every moment from the time he wakes up until he sleeps, and derive conclusions from what he thinks. In the Qur'an, Allah informs us that in all circumstances the believers reflect and derive beneficial conclusions from their thinking. In the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of night and day, there are signs for people with intelligence: those who remember Allah, standing, sitting and lying on their sides, and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth: "Our Lord, You have not created this for nothing. Glory be to You! So safeguard us from the punishment of the Fire." (Surat Al ‘Imran: 190-191) As we are also informed in the verse, because believers are people who reflect, they are able to see the miraculous side of the creation and exalt the power, knowledge and wisdom of Allah. Thinking Sincerely by Turning Towards Allah In order for contemplation to benefit a person and lead him to the right conclusion, he should always think positively. For instance, a person who - seeing someone far more handsome than himself - feels inferior because of his physical inadequacy by thinking about the other person's good looks or who becomes jealous of this person, is thinking a thought of which Allah does not approve. Yet, a person who aims to earn the approval of Allah considers the good looks of the other person as a manifestation of Allah's perfect creation. Since he looks at this person as a beauty Allah has created, he derives great pleasure from it. He asks Allah to enhance the beauty of this person in the hereafter. As for himself, he also asks Allah for true and eternal beauty in the hereafter. He realises that man can never be perfect in this world, because the world has been created with imperfections as a part of a test. His craving for paradise increases. This is certainly only one example of sincere thought. Throughout life, man encounters many instances like this. He is tested to see whether he displays good manners and a way of thought with which Allah will be pleased. His being successful in the test and his contemplation bringing favour to him in the hereafter depend on his deriving lessons and warnings from the things on which he reflects. For this, it is imperative that one thinks truthfully continually. Allah states in the Qur'an: It is He Who shows you His signs, and sends down provision to you out of heaven. But none pay heed save those who turn unto Him repentant. (Surah Ghafir: 13) Source: Harun Yahya's website

Historically, somalis might have practised some kind of pastoral life but in many parts of Somalia this has been combined with some kind of agrarianism. In Somalia, the fertile lands between the two rivers for instance have been home to people who live off the land. This is arguably the area that has the largest demographic density. In the north of Somalia around the Gebiley area, many Somalis have been practising farming for centuries. The coast has had people whose main way of life evolved around fishing (Merca, Mogadishu, warshiik, Bosasso, qandalla, caluula, Xiis, meydh , laasqorey etc) . Shifta, you are exactly correct. A sizable number of Somalis do farm land to sustain their livelihoods but we wish the rest to follow. Those whom we wish to embrace agriculture are those who seem to be always on the path of famines. Thankx shifta...

Raxmah iyo Lix Afar and all other nomads.... God Bless you two. Thank you for the insightful responses.

Good response Postman... Sxb you seem to understand my talk of dream and reality. Brother I have gone to Harun Yahya's website. Its superb. Thanks for the link you have provided. It seems it will greatly help if some of us read some of his articles and books about dreams. Salafi, In four consecutive posts, and still failling to answer - from intellect - the question on which the topic is set, you wrote: U see J11 u have good dreams or bad dreams...one is from Allah to conver a glad tiding...the other from Shaytain....thats all Subhanallah...walal u need to stop guessing. Allah said indeed guessing is not a substitute for the truth! Hadith - Muslim 5640, Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah, r.a. Allah's Messenger said: There came to him (the Prophet) a desert Arab and said: I saw in a dream that I had been beheaded and I had been following it (the severed head). Allah's Apostle reprimanded him saying: Do not inform about the vain sporting of devil with you during the night. saying, "A good dream is from Allah, so if anyone of you saw a dream which he liked, he should not tell it to anybody except to the one whom he loves, and if he saw a dream which he disliked, then he should seek refuge with Allah from its evil and from the evil of Satan, and spit three times (on his left) and should not tell it to anybody, for it will not harm him." That is what dreams are...And we were created...To worship Allah alone...U will not be helped accountable for what happends in your dream...But in Life u are accountable for everything you do....thats is the difference.... This is similar to the man who said that the Quran was created! Imam baarbaharee(d.375) said the following... May Allaah have mercy upon you! Know that the Sunnah is not a matter for analogies or reasoning with examples, and desires are not to be followed in it. Rather, it is just a case of affirming the narrations from Allaah's Messenger (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam), without asking how, explaining or saying: 'Why?' or 'How?' May Allah have mercy upon you! Know that heresy, disbelief, doubts, innovations, misguidance and confusion about the religion have never occurred except through theological rhetoric (Kalaam) and because of the people of theological rhetoric, argumentation, debating and disputation. How can a man plunge into argumentation, disputation and debating seeing that Allah, the Most High, said: None dispute regarding the Ayaat (revelations, signs, proofs) of Allah except those who disbelieve [1]. You should submit to and be pleased with the narrations and the people of narrations, withhold and remain silent. This is ajeeb to say the least but what this does is to confuse the reader and make them use their intellect before they use the Qur’aan and Sunnah, hence man’s intellect is made to be superior then the sources of Revelation. Clearly this manner of argument has not been seen with regards to the salaf(companions..tabein..etc), they never and still do not use man’s flawed intellect and reasoning over the Haqq of the Qur’aan and authentic ahaadeeth My question wasn't concerned with the evil-ness or the good-ness of dreams, I was only interested in whether dreams were, in essence, the true status of man-kind or not. I didn't seek from you warnings, or accusing me of claiming 'the Qur'an was created. I haven't mentioned anything that depicts the status of my faith nor did I sound like someone disputing Islam. But my friend - salafi - you decided from your own accord to bring religion into the whole issue. I don't have any doubts about my faith nor do I doubt anything contained in it. What I don't understand is why do you -salafi - use Islam as a tool to culminate discusions? Are you of the opinion that we - as muslims - can not engage in any discusion that you may not find comfortable? I don't know. I don't even think your four posts answered the question at hand. Salafi, brother or sister, tell us straightforwardly, can you speak your your thoughts for once rather than preaching as if we are non-muslims? Mutakalim you wroteL: Jamaal 11:- Brother I am still awaiting your response to my post. Instead, you have chosen to post an equally incoherent article bloated with flacious arguments, logical inconsistincies and the like. I dare not accuse you of red herring or ad hominimems; so I will await your response. Also, this whole thread is nothing save philosophical enquiry. Perhaps a rudimentary understanding of philosophy would clear this misunderstanding. To answer your question, I did not use the terms ontology and epistimology interchangeably, to do so would cause you great confusion, and that I do not intend. By the way, do you suppose that [/b] your meditations are in accordance with Islamic Doctrines ('aqaid)? [/b] Well, thank you for being reasonable in waiting for my response. Mind you though, when I posted the article you are calling names, I have given a warning of how it may make some individuals confused. Its pretty difficult for some folks to understand it . Sxb my thoughts have nothing to do with philosophy. But since you are so inclined to retreat to philosophy to answer or understand things as simple as this topic, I shall allow you to call it philosophy. I just don't see the fascination with another man's thoughts to figure out what your thoughts are. Could you not think individually? Or does it mean you can't unless you employ the jargons of philosophy?

Nomads, I know this thread is generating some deep discusion and is potential to leading a weak mind to oblivion. However, I don't intent to go into certain subjects which philosophers or would-be philosophers indulge in. The topic is purely concerned with the debate of 'are we really living, or can we tell whether we aren't dreaming? Note: I did not CLAIM 'the soul exists in its own realm'...only say that about the dreams. Saying dreams exist in their cosmic universe. I can be held liable to saying that and I wish to explain and elaborate on many of the things I mentioned at the start of the topic. Insha-allaah i will write a long post regarding that matter. I will do so the minute time permits me. By the way below is an article about 'Dreams Vs Reality'. Hope you understand it. ------ Reality vs. Dreams By: etymxris Date: 2002-11-28 22:51:02 Summary: We are permanently disconnected from reality. All that we know of reality is reported to us through our senses. How do we know these senses are telling us the truth? Perhaps we are being deceived. What we think is reality is actually something completely different. Descartes considered this problem many centuries ago, and I reconsider it now. One thing that puzzled philosophers of Descartes' time was this: How can we know we are not dreaming? Dreams can be quite vivid. While we have them, we often have no idea that we are just in a dream. It is only after we wake up that we find this out. The answer is: We know what dreams are because we wake up from them. Perhaps reality is just a dream that we will one day wake up from. Until then, though, we should regard it as reality. The answer to the question of dreams solves the original problem. That is, how can we trust our senses? The answer is, how can we not? They are all we have to work with. Until we find our senses lying to us, we should not assume that they are. Body: We Wake Up From Dreams But we can never escape reality. To most laypersons, it is common sense that dreams and reality are two different things. But to many philosophers, it isn't obvious at all. Such a philosopher will point out the vividness of dreams, and how, when we are dreaming, we often do not know it is a dream. What we call “reality” may very well be just another dream. “Reality” may just be fictitious creation in our minds. Even if it is not, there is no way that we could know. We are forever confined to the possibility that there is no reality as we sense it. But suppose we could always distinguish between dreams and awakeness. Let's say that there was some special property of dreams, such as the presense of an orange tint in our vision, or a dull ringing in our hearing, that always allowed us to demarcate between dreams and reality. Even if we found such a special property, we could not know that it really told us the difference between dreams and reality. To know that the special property really worked, we would have to already know what is a dream, and what is an experience of reality. But this special property was supposed to resolve this issue. So we are left with a viscious circle, where for us to determine what is real, we must already know what is real. We must again resign ourselves to the possibility that we will never know the difference between dreams and reality. But there is a difference between dreams and reality. We would not have both “dreams” and “reality” if we did not already have a way to distinguish between them. So what is the special property of dreams that distinguishes them from reality? The property is not of the dream itself, but what happens after the dream. We wake up from dreams. We never wake up from reality. A dream is only a dream in retrospect, it is never a dream at the time it is dreamed. Could this be a dream that we will never wake up from? No! Could this be a dream that we someday wake up from? Maybe. If we “wake up” from what we consider reality, then we will discover a new reality, and recognize our experiences now to have only been a dream. But at this point in time, these experiences are not a dream. Our future is always uncertain, and our knowledge will perhaps be forever incomplete. It may turn out that what we thought we knew for sure was anything but. However, the possibility of acquiring new knowledge should not discourage us from trusting our current knowledge. What we know here and now may be incomplete, but it is certainly better than nothing. Those that say our current knowledge cannot be trusted have a point. Knowledge cannot be fully trusted. But neither can it be fully dismissed. Those that say reality is nothing but a dream dismiss all knowledge, and so do us all a disservice. Knowledge can never be fully right, but it cannot be fully wrong, either. There is some truth to the falsehood that the Earth is flat. The Earth is flat over wide expanses, but not over all expanses. Eventually, it wraps around on itself. But this does not negate the observations of early peoples that the Earth is flat. These people were not incorrect in their observation, but their extrapolation. All knowledge is this way. Even if a person is trying to deceive you, there is some knowledge to be found. That the person said this or that is a knowledge, even if what the person says is a falsehood. We can even imagine the most extreme scenario, that of a brain in a vat. Every neuron in this brain that would have connected to the spine or some point of the body is instead attached to an electrode that interfaces with a computer. This brain in the vat thinks it is a human that walks about, goes to a steady job, and returns home to a loving wife. But it's entire experience in life is just simulated on a computer. Perhaps you are this brain in a vat. You think you are reading a text written by me, but I am nothing but a simulation, I don't really exist. But this is a mistake. I do exist, even if I only exist as a “simulation” on a computer. So there are two possible realities. The first is where I exist as a real person, the other is where my existence is nothing but a simulation in a computer. But we can never distinguish between these two possibilities. So why should we? We may as well call these the same reality. I will in fact call these the same reality. My definition of reality lumps together any two possible “realities” that cannot possibly be distinguished from one another. So there will always be one existing reality, and many possible future realities. If you were a brain in a vat, you could be taken out, put into a human body, and told, “See, you were just a brain in a vat all that time. You really are a reptile like creature with green, scaly skin. Isn't that neat?” If this came to be, then you would recognize your current existence as having been due to computer simulation, but you would only realize this in the future. Now, while you are still in the vat, existence in the vat is equivalent to existence as a normal human. It is only in the future that you may be able to recognize which of these possible current realities was actual. Right now, all of these possibilites are actual. In fact, they correspond uniquely to what you have experienced in life and what you have come to think about what is real. Possibilites diverge all the time. We don't have to come up with a bizarre example like the brain in a vat to demonstrate this. Assume you are in an apartment, and you hear a couple yelling next door. Maybe they are having a heated argument. Maybe they are being facetious, and only playing with each other. Maybe there is no one there, and what you hear is only a TV. You don't know which of these possibilities is true. So, at this point in time, they are all “actual”. You might be curious and listen a little longer. At this point you might hear a commercial at the same volume as the argument, and figure out that the yelling originated from the TV. At this point, only one of the above possibilities is now actual. But this does not mean that the other possibilities were false, as possibilities, before you acquired this new knowledge. All knowledge is of possibilities. That is why it is inherently incomplete. We can never whittle down the multitude of possibilities to just one, since we cannot experience everything at once. Where we go wrong is in denying the possibilities that are, and in allowing possibilities that are not. Those who believed the Earth to be flat should have said, “Well, the land is flat here, but who knows what happens over the horizon?” If their statements would have been qualified like this, they would not have been false. But sometimes it is difficult to list all the possibilities, and so we go with the simplest until further evidence dictates otherwise. It would be cumbersome and somewhat silly to say, “I'm having a meeting with Bob, or the simulation I think is Bob because I'm really a brain in a vat, if I'm a brain in a vat.” There are so many possibilities at any one time, in fact, that we could never speak of them all. But never speaking of them does not discredit them as possibilities. It is fine to say, here and now, “Yes, I could be a brain in a vat. But until I see otherwise, I will assume I am not.” We make such assumptions as a matter of pragmatics, and go about our lives. There has been much effort put into deciding which possibility, given our current history of experiences and knowledge, is most likely to be proven out. There has also been much effort put into deciding which assumptions turn out to be the most pragmatic for each person. But these are different problems for another day. It is more important to realize that we are never stuck in a dream. If we are dreaming now and wake up, then we will have found escape. And if we are dreaming now and forever, there is no reason to care whether it was a dream at all. No matter what the case, our knowledge is not to be discarded in its entirety. We can always find ourselves to be wrong, but we can never be totally wrong. We will always have to revise and update our knowledge, but we never have to disavow all knowledge. We are not a brain in a vat, but even if we are, we do not care. Source: Society of Babel PS: Some of you might object to the article not because of its content but because of the belief of the author.

Tea and comedy

Mutakalam lol....what a line of questioning that was! phew! But you didn't ask only questions have you? I appreciate your trying to cleverly add comments to questions. Anyways, most prolly my reply and as you called it 'clarifications' will come next but let me question you on the questions you asked me. I see you found it difficult to comprehend what I was talking about. You said you've been reading philosophy for 11 years, mutakalam, but i must clarify to you that the topic and the thoughts content in it are but philosophical. Just pure thought expressed in the most simplest and understandable fashion is what the topic is. Sorry to disappoint your assumptions sxb. "I will employ the principle of charity." Lol I think I get the drift mutakalam. I am sure your principle of charity would been appreciated if we were in the waters of philosophy. So I will not mind what your intention was . since I do see a line of thought in what you say, but I do not see a system of thought (ontologically and epistemologically speaking at least) I would ask you to read or to use Leibniz' works in your arguments, because they are clear, and represent a system which we can understand as a whole, and so, it would become clear where everything fits in the system. Yes, Mutakalam. You are right, you do see a line of thought; but do I sense your use of the terms 'otology and epistemology' as if they were interchangable? Let me not accuse you of having difficulty in not knowing that espistemology comes after ontlogy. Ontology, as i know, refers to the subject of existence, and espistemology asks - if a subject exists - then what is next? what do we know about the ontologically specified subject? Can we sense it, feel it? see it? touch it? Thats the order in which the terms compliment each other. Ask me, 'ontologically, do dreams exist? After I have proved that then again ask me, espitemologically, what do we know about them? Do dreams exist? No, not in ways provable. So here there is no need for epistemology. So mutakalam you see... my thoughts were purely speculative, but it seems you have had slight misunderstanding. First, no proof can be obtained for dreams, rather, the existence of dreams are like myths and legends. We cannot prove them so we accept them at face value. You said : "you have stepped outside the line of philosophy, and into theology and revealed religion" No no I haven't stepped out of philosophy and neither did I to theology. I have used all available evidence to conceptialise what I was putting across. By the way must one always be considering that his/her's movement of thought is limited by what is in books and subjects of centuries long gone? Do your mind a justice and exercise alittle mobility of the mind please. "Never the less, I must at least say that it is clear that predestination cannot be accepted if one believes in God's justice and in God's wisdom." really? PS: About Adam and Eve..... I think we can talk about that later