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Richard Dawking mocked the Muslim World's intellectual inferiority

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Khayr, there's no use in continuing this with him at all.

 

I'm gonna say this again, so people can understand me:

 

And in Islam, individual Sheikhs are never taken as an authority (on religious rulings). What's taken as an authority is the CONSENSUS. ie. What they all agree on, and then cross-reference on whether their beliefs are in accordance to the evidences. Each individual person is prone to making mistakes, which is why we look towards what they collectively believe, and hope that their collective beliefs are correct.

 

What Allyourbase is doing is completely dishonest, and he knows it. He quotes Hadiths, claims that those hadith rulings are still valid to this day, and then he claims that this is the valid view of the consensus of scholars, and then he tries to flip the situation and make it as if his opinion is the correct one. And then he tries to flip it on me and claim that I'm the one with the misunderstanding!

 

Read above, read everything I posted, and I've given plenty of evidence. So what if Aisha and Sheikh Albaani made mistakes? What does this have to do with anything?

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I only repeated the questions because you refused to answer a very simple, straightforward question on many occasions.

 

I did not ask you if it was abrogated or not, I simply said, are the Hadiths that I have posted Sahih or not. To which you could have simply either said yes or no. But just like you took the part of that post you thought would weaken your argument and disingenuously posted that wall of text you are evading my simple questions.

 

I know why, and everyone who is reading right now too knows why. Because you know they are Sahih.

 

You also know that the wife of the prophet did not give a [you know what] about what you call 'consensus' and followed the Hadith of your prophet, which clearly shows that it is infact not abrogated. Do you know who agrees with me?

 

Yes, Al Albany and Ibn Taymiyyah, YOUR VERY OWN Sheikhs, that you were quoting earlier in the day. You chose to cite them when you thought their views aligned with yours, as AUTHORITIES of fiqh as you have yourself stated. And yet you chose to ABANDON them when their views embarrassed you in this discussion. You ran and googled your own view, found a random article answering the question of a man with the weird fetish of drinking his own wife's milk, deleted the part that referred to the question and posted the rest thinking that you were not going to be caught but you were :D

 

So to put it simply, our friend has abandoned the school of Ibn Taymiyyah and Al Albany that he was advocating and is claiming that in this matter he is right, and the wife of the prophet, is in fact wrong.

 

[i would not want to be you on Judgment day]

 

So yeah, checkmate sxb.

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DoctorKenney;991001 wrote:

 

What Allyourbase is doing is completely dishonest, and he knows it. He quotes Hadiths, claims that those hadith rulings are still valid to this day, and then he claims that this is the valid view of the consensus of scholars, and then he tries to flip the situation and make it as if his opinion is the correct one. And then he tries to flip it on me and claim that I'm the one with the misunderstanding!

 

Read above, read everything I posted, and I've given plenty of evidence.
So what if Aisha and Sheikh Albaani made mistakes
? What does this have to do with anything?

So FINALLY you agree that Aisha is a sinner? And she, along with Albany and Ibn Taymiyyah's understanding of this matter is morbid, immoral, strange and definitely not part of islam?

 

 

Do you agree?

 

(Say yes :D)

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I never denied they were Sahih, and if I'm mentioning that this ruling was abrogated, then I'm implicitly acknowledging that it was valid at one point in time! If it was posted in Sahih Bukhari or Muslim, then yeah.....all indicators are saying that they're Sahih.

 

There is no SCHOOL of Albaani or Ibn Taymiyyah. Those scholars were men, and weren't perfect, and had made mistakes. (And there are plenty of examples of other Scholars that make mistakes). Don't try and make it seem as if I'm abandoning them, or that I'm denying that they're authorities on Fiqh issues. I'm denying their rulings, because there's a stronger opinion, and the stronger opinion is that the ruling is incorrect and that the breastfeeding of a person is only until the person reaches 2 years of age.

 

So yes, Albaani was wrong on this. Ibn Taymiyyah was wrong on this. Whereas Umar bin Khattab, Ali ibn Abi Talib, Abdullahi ibn Masud, Ibn Abbas, Ibn Umar, Abu Hurayrah as well as the Prophet's other wives were correct on this. How many times do I have to repeat this point for you to fully understand it?

 

On one hand, we have a couple Scholars and Aisha asserting a point. On the other hand, we have thousands of Sahabi, Scholars and the Prophet's other wives asserting the opposite point. But the 2nd group have FAR more evidences and their understanding of this issue is unanimous.

 

And the block of text that I referenced, is still valid. There is no "being caught" here, because the answer to the question was stated in full. The nature of Islamic Fatwas, is that they tend to go in extreme detail regarding a topic, and then reference the points they want to reference, AND THEN they go on to answer the question. If you read the actual text, it confirms EVERYTHING that I stated on this thread. Because I highlighted the points that I wanted you to read, and if you read that Scholar's essay, he says repeatedly that breastfeeding is only valid for the first 2 years of someone's life.

 

Here's the link to it: http://islamqa.com/en/2864 Everyone read it

 

And he references the Quran here:

 

The breastfeeding must happen within the first two years of the child’s life, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “The mothers shall give suck to their children for two whole years, (that is) for those (parents) who desire to complete the term of suckling…” [al-Baqarah 2:233].

So there's nothing for me to say here. The argument is done, it's finished, and I addressed everything I wanted to address (and repeated myself several times too)

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Allyourbase;991003 wrote:
So FINALLY you agree that Aisha is a sinner? And she, along with Albany and Ibn Taymiyyah's understanding of this matter is morbid, immoral, strange and definitely not part of islam?

 

 

Do you agree?

 

(Say yes
:D
)

NOPE.

 

She's incorrect. And he was incorrect.

 

And yes, they may have committed sins in their life (along with virtually all humans), but they're not sinners, far from it actually. And whatever minor sins they might have committed, they were known to frequently repent to God for forgiveness everyday.

 

That's all I have to say about it, and I won't tolerate you attempting to defame the character of Aisha or Al Albaani. People make mistakes. Including our scholars. And the rulings they're right on, is far more than the rulings they're incorrect on.

 

So end the topic.

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HOLD IT.

 

 

You yourself said that the act of allowing a strange man to suckle on you or your relatives for a woman was 'bizarre'. You said that yourself. And it is documented by your own sources that Aisha did that very thing that you thought was immoral and strange.

 

So why not just say it?

 

Is she not a normal person like you and me? Have you not said before that this practice is 'bizarre'?

 

Okay, what about your beloved Prophet, was he incorrect too? Because he was the one who ordered such practice to begin.

 

If we all agree that the act in itself is vile, why not condemn those who propagated it?

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Raamsade   

People like Dr. Ken are textbook example of the price religious dogma exacts on the human intellect. Even when confronted with unassailable arguments and evidence, rather do what most rational people would do and consider revising his previous positions, he digs in further. That is what dogma does, it forces you to stick to a position no matter what your head or heart tells you.

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Here is the link that goes into further detail regarding this. Everyone reading this thread should click on it

 

http://spa.qibla.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=4806&CATE=120

 

Either way, you're jumping around here trying to prove something that's not true. It's not valid in Shariah. It's an incorrect ruling, and I've given plenty of examples showing you. And even Aisha herself, never believed that it was okay for a strange man to suckle out of a woman directly. What she believed in, was pouring the milk into a utensil or a cup, and then give the cup to the man to drink, without exposing her body parts. Allyourbase would have us believe that there were lines of men waiting to suckle on her, which is totally wrong and is a complete fabrication, and he is slandering the name of Aisha.. He's giving no evidence at all for his beliefs.

 

Again, read the link I provided, which provides different evidences but reaches the same conclusions.

 

That's all I have to say about this issue. And there are plenty of refutations on the net

 

All he's doing (Allyourbase) is basically trying desperately to validate his pre-conceived beliefs and then try to pass it off as a legitimate ruling in Islam. He's wrong, I've proven him wrong several times on this thread, and that should be the end of this discussion. The link I provided goes into far greater detail than me, but it still says everything I needed to say.

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DoctorKenney;990905 wrote:
Right now we're talking about rulings, and Wizard claiming that seeking scientific knowledge is forbidden in Islam, which I stated is false.

I said the Wahabi sheikhs preach against science and law which is true.

 

Your average Muslim person living in the Great Middle East isn't knowledgeable enough about the Islamic religion and his source of information is the average Wahabi sheikh in the local masjid who wants to talk about science while his knowledge about science is big fat ZERO.

 

We're in the 21st century and these local sheikhs still tell people that a man automatically becomes kaafir if he believes a mankind has ever landed on the moon or a solar eclipse occurs when the moon passes between the sun and earth.

 

Your average Muslim person takes the talk of these sheikhes in the local masjid as Qur'aan.

 

Whether you like it or not, that's the painful truth in our Muslim world.

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Raamsade;991008 wrote:
People like Dr. Ken are textbook example of the price religious dogma exacts on the human intellect. Even when confronted with unassailable arguments and evidence, rather do what most rational people would do and consider revising his previous positions, he digs in further. That is what dogma does, it forces you to stick to a position no matter what your head or heart tells you.

Raamsade, and you're a textbook example of what price "religious bias" exacts on the human intellect. You already have your pre-conceived notions of what Islam is, and you'll look at this discussion, read a couple of AllYourBase's points, and then claim that what he's claiming is true and factual. You do this without even looking at the other side, and without even looking at the overwhelming evidence in my favor, which proves Allyourbase as being wrong.

 

But no, according to you, religious people are the ones who are not rational. I can come with 50 pieces of evidence, you'll come up with 1 or 2 pieces of evidence that are abrogated, and then you'll claim that you're the one who's in the right. Your hypocrisy is telling.

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Khayr   

Offbase,

 

Aisha (ر) reported the hadith but where did it say that men where suckling her breast? You are

spewing this thread with your garbage and you are being insideous with your circular line of questioning. You should be banned!

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Wing Wizard;991010 wrote:
I said the Wahabi sheikhs preach against science and law which is true.

 

Your average Muslim person living in the Great Middle East isn't knowledgeable enough about the Islamic religion and his source of information is the average Wahabi sheikh in the local masjid who wants to talk about science while his knowledge about science is big fat ZERO.

 

We're in the 21st century and these local sheikhs still tell people that a man automatically becomes kaafir if he believes a mankind has ever landed on the moon or a solar eclipse occurs when the moon passes between the sun and earth.

 

Your average Muslim person takes the talk of these sheikhes in the local masjid as Qur'aan.

 

Whether you like it or not, that's the painful truth in our Muslim world.

Dude, do you even know what a Wahhabi is?

 

And have you ever even lived in these countries?

 

Do you actually believe that Local Imams make takfir on people who state that a solar eclipse is when the moon passes in front of the sun? You actually believe in this? I doubt you've ever been to these countries. You sound like you're repeating what you hear on the internet. I've been to literally dozens of mosques in the Middle East and Africa and I've never heard anything of the sort. You're making it up.

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Khayr;991012 wrote:
Offbase,

 

Aisha (ر) reported the hadith but where did it say that men where suckling her breast? You are

spewing this thread with your garbage and you are being insideous with your circular line of questioning. You should be banned!

Saaxib, read the link I provided too.

 

Worst case scenario, she permitted drinking someone's breast-milk out of a cup in order to make that person a Mahram. So you put the milk in a cup first, then cover yourself up, then give it to that person to drink. Allyourbase took that incorrect ruling, and made an entire argument based on that weak argument. He blatantly lied on this forum, and I see no reason to tolerate his BS

 

Nowhere in hell did it say that men were suckling her breast. Aisha never uncovered herself, she never spoke to men except through a barrier, and was a rather private person.

 

Either way, I gotta leave the house.

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DoctorKenney;991009 wrote:
Here is the link that goes into further detail regarding this. Everyone reading this thread should click on it

 

 

Either way, you're jumping around here trying to prove something that's not true. It's not valid in Shariah. It's an incorrect ruling, and I've given plenty of examples showing you.
And even Aisha herself,
never believed
that it was okay for a strange man to suckle out of a woman directly.
What she believed in, was pouring the milk into a utensil or a cup, and then give the cup to the man to drink, without exposing her body parts.
Allyourbase would have us believe that there were lines of men waiting to suckle on her, which is totally wrong and is a complete fabrication, and he is slandering the name of Aisha. He's giving no evidence at all for his beliefs.

 

Again, read the link I provided, which provides different evidences but reaches the same conclusions.

 

That's all I have to say about this issue. And there are plenty of refutations on the net

 

All he's doing (Allyourbase) is basically trying desperately to validate his pre-conceived beliefs and then try to pass it off as a legitimate ruling in Islam. He's wrong, I've proven him wrong several times on this thread, and that should be the end of this discussion. The link I provided goes into far greater detail than me, but it still says everything I needed to say.

 

I DO NOT CARE about the practicalities of the suckling, certainly the Hadith I have quoted when your prophet ordered the woman to allow the strange bearded man to suckle on her breast was explicit in the usage of the word suckle.

 

In fact here is a lecture on this very topic by Sheikh Al Huwayni, who was a student of one of your own favourite Sheikhs mr. Al Albany, clearly refuting the 'drinking the woman's milk from a cup' rehtoric that you are presenting:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-cNu1EOzAA

 

 

What she believed in, was pouring the milk into a utensil or a cup, and then give the cup to the man to drink, without exposing her body parts.

Dude you are talking as if the actual suckling is weird and what you presented is alright, this is insane! :D

 

Do you think it is normal for a woman to pour her own milk into a cup for a strange man to drink?! Do think this is acceptable behaviour?

 

As I said I do not care about the practicalities of this weird, messed up practice. What is important to me is the fact that Aisha did practice it and that your prophet ordered a woman to allow a man to suckle on her exposed breast.

 

Now you did not answer me, what do you think of this behaviour, seriously, what is your opinion on it?

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