What validates spilling the blood of a Muslim:

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by Laba-X:

Funny how many people speak about the affairs of religion by simply resorting to their own opinions and understanding.

I coulden't read beyond this.

 

Bashi's " kaligii Muslim " came to mind.

[Fabregas_Bruv]

Originally posted by NGONGE:

^^ I doubt that Islamic lesson (or the ones in your first post)is going to change people's opinions, saaxib. The rules are not in dispute here, the application is.

 

You say Al Shabab are innocent but the NEWS we keep hearing does not. You say they are misunderstood but the NEWS says not. You write pages upon pages of Islamic rules (and furnish them with a million Arabic words that half of your readers take time to fathom) yet never tackle the NEWS itself (Nur is no better with his conspiracy obsession).

 

One thing I know of Al Shabab (and the Islamic Courts before them), they are RUBBISH at getting their message across and winning people to their side.

 

What you are good at though, is shouting as loud as you can about Kaafir, Murtad, Munaafiq and Faasiq. Adeer, waxan naga daa. Tell us why Al Shabab are good and what their

plans for Somalia are. Then and maybe then you will not keep losing supporters everytime the NEWS reports that you are fighting Hizbu el Islam or stoning some qabiil-less person or looting UN stores.

 

Right now, if you ask any average

MUSLIM

Somali about Al Shabab, he will tell you that they're an angry group of young people that are hell bent on proving everyone but them a Kaffir!

 

Is it possible to win such a person over though? I believe it is. Just like the Courts won them over the first time round.

 

Ma fahantay mese wan ku so celiya?

post of the year. (these wadaads are still stuck in the 2006ages)( joke).

[xiinfaniin]

LX,

 

Forget about what happened in Xamar. Instead, if you are up for a discussion, explain to me from a religious perspective, the Beledweyne mass murder which your group took credit for (it was, they said, camiliyyah istish-haadiyah mubaarakah ).

[Laba-X]

NG, adeer it seems i’ve been speaking Old Irish lately! Changing anyone’s mind is something I have no desire for. And if it is the ‘application’ that is in dispute, then who is applying the rules and who is not?

 

You are inundated with tons of ‘news’ by people whose primary objective is to gain benefit from spreading and disseminating such news. The relationship between the media and the susceptible audience is often mediated through a wide range of highly organised pressure groups, whose sole purpose is to influence the content of news by attempting to curb what is published and what is not! This is called spin doctoring adeer, and spin doctors is what Al-Shabaab do not employ! Their acts are out for all to see. Their words are justifiably congruous with their actions, unlike the feeble TFG who are in need of access to the media to convey their political discourses and appease the public. When the Shabaab commit an act, they do not mince their words (we killed the Murtad in Baladweyne) Hence there is no need for the spin doctor!

 

As for the battle of hearts and minds, that has long been won inside Southern Somalia – it is only those in the Diaspora who are lagging behind. The safety of the Southern regions, areas under the control of the Mujahideen, is unparalleled, yet the news you follow paints you a ghastly picture of a desolate, godforsaken land. The Mujahideen have been busy building asphalt roads, clearing away rubbish, building canal and irrigation systems, distributing zakat to the needy, mediating between warring clans and dousing the flames of centuries old conflicts; and for the first time in 20 years did the residents of Kismayo, Marka, Baraawe,Jowhar, Mogadishu and the rest of the regions come to the Eid congregation in one place respectively! The largest congregations ever to assemble! The evidence is there for all to see. It is only a case of ‘selective ear lending’. Ask anyone in Somalia, what has the ‘government’ done for Somalia? Even when it was in control of the regions now administered by the Mujahideen? The answer you will receive will be akin to ‘nothing except they pillaged and plundered, raped and extorted money, bribed and battered the innocent.’ The events of looting of the Bakaara market are still embedded in everyone’s mind and even today, the 2KM circle they control in Mogadishu is riddled with theft, bribery and all sorts of vices. When crossing to the TFG’s tiny enclosure, the people don’t even take their purses or mobile phone, for fear that they may return without them. The hypocrisy of Sharif and the corruption of the TFG forces are undisputable facts.

 

You are concerned with the NEWS of the events (without regard for its reliability) while I am concerned with Shari’ah’s stance on the events, hence the misunderstanding!

 

p.s you said you would look into the matter deeply and reach a conclusion, have your findings yielded any fruits?

 

 

Xiinow, iga warsug adeer!

[Nur]

"The relationship between the media and the susceptible audience is often mediated through a wide range of highly organised pressure groups, whose sole purpose is to influence the content of news by attempting to curb what is published and what is not! This is called spin doctoring."

 

Laba-X, December 22, 2009

 

 

 

"It is very interesting, that so many of our prominent newspapers have become almost agents or adjuncts of the government; that they do not contest or even raise questions about government policy."

 

Senator William Fulbright, Senate hearing on Media, 1966

 

 

Nur

[NGONGE]

^^ Away with you and your nonsensical propaganda, saaxib.

 

Laba X, I still blame you and Nur and all those that support Al Shabab. You say the news is controlled by such and such but you do not do your bit to counter the news. Choosing instead to point fingers and dissect whatever you deem false.

 

I told you above and I tell you again, when you say that Al Shabab are good, why is it only when you're attacked and put on the defensive? Who is stopping you from starting threads showing the constant achievements of Al Shabab?

 

Do you (and Nur) see where I am coming from? It is simple. It really is not rocket science and it is the one great reason why most people despise Al Shabab (they have no other source of news).

 

I also need to rebuke you on your argument that you are not out to change anyone's mind. Why else did you start this thread if that is not the case? Changing people's minds should be your top priority, adeer.

 

Unlike the others that are arguing with you here, I am not really interested in right or wrong, I am concerned with the way each side presents itself. The TFG is clearly and obviously a pointless administration full of thieves, turncoats and opportunists (the news tells us that). However, I know from personal experience (if not the news) that there are good people working for the TFG with the simple aim of bringing peace and stability to Somalia. On the other hand, Al Shabab is said to be a group full of angry kids, zealots, some clannish moles and even thieves. But I am also sure that the group contains many with the simple aim of bringing peace and stability to Somalia.

 

I do not trust the TFG. In fact, I do not trust them even before considering Nur's rehtoric about the CIA. However, TFG waxba iga maqaadi karto.

 

I do not trust Al Shabab either (though I tried). I do not trust them because I hold them in a higher regard than the TFG and apply more stringent criteria to judge them. In this, I make no apology. After all, Al Shabab are claiming to fight for a nobler purpose. So, for example (and this is something that Nur talked about elsewhere), when AMISOM shell the Bakara market, I put the blame on Al Shabab for allowing such a thing to happen. AMISOM is part of the corrupt TFG and does not care for Muslim lives, Al Shabab (being the best of Islamic movements, as they would like us to believe) are Muslim and SHOULD do all they can to avoid the spilling of Muslim blood. Yet, they keep making their attacks knowing full well that AMISOM will retalite by shelling the innocents! Or, maybe, no such thing happens and AMISOM just shell those areas for the fun of it!

 

Anyway, I shall stop ranting, I think you get my point by now (about the importance of having your own news).

[Laba-X]

NG, my dear friend, the metal needs an anvil in order to be hammered into shape. In order to disseminate news to the public you need a platform to project it from: a website, a radio station, satellite, etc. As far as I am aware there is a radio station that operates in the Juba area, and also extends to the Dhoobley areas, manned by the Islamic Administration of Kismayo. It hits the airwaves everyday and has, quite surprisingly, a very wide audience and entertaining programs (news bulletins, historical accounts, quizzes, Islamic education, and so son). I also hear that there are plans to extend it all the way to Mogadishu and beyond.

 

It is a good start I say. A very good start indeed. That’s why majority of the population inside Somalia is in touch with what is going on and receive their daily dose of news – factual news. But there is one problem when it comes to the airwaves overseas; the mainstream media is the BBC, VOA and the like. And I do not expect a man of your understanding would say that their news bulletins are impartial.

 

In my opinion, they are the ones fanning the flames of the political wrangling going on inside Somalia. Case in point is the Hotel Sham saga and the head of Yusuf Garaad’s perpetual implication that the Shabaab did it, when they claimed otherwise; and VOA’s blatant spreading of propaganda and claiming to have received its news from the leaders of Shabaab when in fact they haven’t even spoken to them!

 

As for a website, I think we all know what happened to the former Kataaib. Where did they buy the domain name? check the host, then pull the plug on them. It is that simple!

 

What do you suggest is the best way for them to put their message across, faced with all this?

 

As for changing people’s mind, I say it again; it is of little interest to me personally to change people’s minds and I know fully well that achieving such a feat on this forum is a miracle! What I am doing is presenting what the Shari’ah says in regards to some of the issues troubling Somalia, and particularly the Somalis in the Diaspora, today. And these are not my view but those of scholars upon which books and books have been compiled.

 

Also my defence of the Al-Shabaab is not from the point of they are good/they are bad sort of argument. That is childish, you would agree. My argument lies in the fundamentals of their faith. My argument is concerned with what does the Qur’an and Sunnah say about what they ‘believe’ or say they believe. I am more concerned with whether their actions and Jihad is consistent with the Sunnah and Salaf or whether they are merely innovators. Are they the first to take this path or have they been preceded by others? Are they merely using Islam as façade and surreptitiously exploiting it for their gains or they are people of true to their words? Is their brand of Islam valid? Is their Jihad justified? Is Sharif’s Islam and methods of appeasing the West better than those who reject their calls?

 

My statements concerning the Shabaab is not the relating to NEWS as you call it (or VIEWS as I like to call them) but to the Aqeedah aspect of it all.

 

You said:

 

when AMISOM shell the Bakara market, I put the blame on Al Shabab for allowing such a thing to happen.

Picture the scenario:

 

An intruder enters Ali’s house and rapes his wife in front of him. On gunpoint. ‘Move a step closer and I will blow her head off,’ says the intruder. For a for moments Ali endures the pain and squirms in his seat. But soon his blood boils and he could not bear the pitiful cries of his loving wife. He stands up and grabs a knife to ward the intruder off. ‘Wrong move,’ says the intruder, cocks his gun and fires one shot, breaking his leg. He is weakened and subdued, but the pain in his chest is overwhelmingly unbearable; the screams of his wife, the degradation of his honour, his naked vulnerability. It is too much. Tears begin running down his cheeks, saliva begins to coagulate in his throat, his heart pounds faster, a pulverizing beat and his palms become sweaty. In his moment of ecstasy, the intruder is absentminded. With bloodshot eyes Ali leaps forward and dives for the gun. They struggle. They wrestle. The gun roars. He is hurt. She cries. He bleeds. Two more shots, one to the chest, one on the elbow. The knife falls. Yet again he tries with all his might to subdue the enemy. To die with dignity or to live with disgrace. He reaches for the throat. All the while, she wails. She sniffles. She screams. ‘No’ don’t! she shouts. A shot is fired. Her lung is punctured. Another is fired. Her stomach is hit. Ali throttles the intruder. They struggle. But he is loosing blood. He lets go and pushes the enemy. He goes for the knife and quickly stabs him. And silence ensued. A soft moan. A sigh of relief. He removes the knife. Blood gushes forth. He stabs him again. And again. And again. Ah! That feels good. His hand is weak. The knife drops; the blood drenched knife. He is free. She is silent. He crumbles. She faints.

 

After recovery:

 

He wakes up and encased in bandages he smiles. He looks to his side and faint smile meets his glance. He reaches for the wheelchair, helped by the nurse. She is lucky. She is alive. A complicated operation, but she’s alive. With a tearful look she informs him: ‘I will never be able to have babies anymore.’ She weeps. She is grateful but she weeps. It is hard. Breathing is hard on her and the nurse comforts her. He sits by her side, confused and bewildered. Gently placing her head on his lap, he smiles, gently stroking her hair. A soft breeze caresses her face. Burying her face she sobs. With tears running down her cheecks, she looks at him wistfully and says between her sobs: why did you have to do this? if you hadn’t intervened this wouldn’t have happened!

 

A divorce was in the process.

 

Yes indeed. He knew the intruder did not care for their lives, yet he kept attacking him, knowing full well that the intruder would retaliate with his weapon. He knew the intruder would shoot his weapon and that this might endanger his beloved wife. But he yet he attacked him!

 

That was his only crime!

[NGONGE]

The story is moving and one can fully understand the predicament of all its heroes. But it is not the same as WAR, saaxib. My understanding is that Al Shabab is a movement that is organised and has some sort of a plan. The story you describe is of one that is in shock and without any plans.

 

The point is that Al Shabab’s eventual aim it to rule the land following the rules of Islam. Your average Somali (being, incidentally a Muslim) would happily welcome that (as was proven in 2006). However, he does so because he/she believes that an Islamic State would bring peace and prosperity to the land/people whilst at the same time obeying the commandments of god. The winning ticket is that THEY (the TFG and their supporters) are killing us and driving us out of our homes but Al Shabab are saving us and giving us back our dignity.

 

Where things start to get messy is when Al Shabab’s actions lead to the same results as those of the TFG. Now it’s my turn to tell a story.

 

Abdi has gone to the Bakara Market to buy himself some necessary daily supplies. He walks amongst the hustle and bustle of that place and stops to have a chat with a cousin he met outside a shop. Suddenly, exploding noises erupt around the place and people start falling. Abdi dusts himself up and looks around to find that his cousin is no more. The shop itself is gone! The shelling is not over and a couple more shells fall a few yards away from him (taking with them another shop and all those in it). Abdi starts shouting ‘what is going on?’ someone replies ‘AMISOM are shelling us, AGAIN’. Abdi asks ‘Why?’ someone else shouts ‘Al Shababka baas ba wax qarxiyay’. Abdi wonders why is Al Shabab causing the death of his cousin when they are supposed to be good, fair and ISLAMIC? He mumbles to himself ‘if they knew this was coming why didn’t they at least warn us?’

 

This brings me to the second part of our discussion, the NEWS. Like I said, I am not too familiar with Al Shabab’s news and I may have got it all wrong with my story above. Maybe Al Shabab do warn people in that Market just before (or just after) an operation takes place. But, since Al Shabab does not bother telling us such news we are left to our own assumptions.

 

In addition, Al Shabab may not own an international TV or Radio station but there are dozens of existing Somali websites (this being one of them) where they can update us with their news and give us their take on the latest events. The majority of people on these websites might oppose Al Shabab but, luckily, all Somalis LOVE NEWS.

 

Finally, I would still insist on rebuking you on your insistence that you are not out to change people’s minds. Al shabab ma dagaal kilya ba, dacwa kuma jirto miya?

[Laba-X]

NG, Ali’s story, despite your perception, doesn’t happen unsystematically. The squirming in the seat, the pace, the limbs, the movement, the timing; these are not simply inadvertent occurrences, but rather coordinated. An intricate process, appearing unrelated, but coordinated. And however much Ali tried, he was still seen as the culprit, whose effects, deemed fortuitous, determined the outcome. All the while, he repeated the lines of one of Togdheer’s famous poets, cabdullahi Muuse:

• Tabantaabaday laba gacmood, tamar ku yeeshaane

• Hadday midigtu keli taagantahay, tahar ma goyseene

 

Back to the stories. I see you like stories, so I will give you some more.

 

See the problem with the story is that Abdi is not from Mile End, you see. He lives the reality. He does not haphazardly walk into Bakara market without the knowledge that it wouldn’t be shelled. So like any sane individual would, he takes necessary precaution, yet fully believes that, despite the precaution, whatever is ordained must come to pass. And he knows the Shabaab; knows them well. He knows their stance. He is grateful. He knows that, after Allah’s will, it is because of their presence that he can now walk freely any hour; his wealth, his life, and his honour undefiled. He doesn’t carry a pistol anymore. Last year’s incidents are still fresh in his mind; the qat-cazed soldier who molested the neighbour’s daughter; the uniformed assassin who looted his house. It is all there. The extortion. The bribery. The depredation. The kidnapping. All in the name of government building. He remembers his brother’s shop in Bakaara; a vivid image he sees. The intoxicated men with machetes, hammers, and lock breakers. The gun wielding men, he envisages. Were they government soldier or government locksmiths?

 

Now, he doesn’t have to look after his mother whenever she goes outside. She is safe in Siinay, and so are his relatives by Caymiska. The shelling has saddened him. His heart is constricted and for a moment, he contemplates the situation. He is saddened. But he is pacified. The exploits of the soldiers pricks his conscious. The implacable greed and deceit of the marauding police; the wickedness; the dishonesty; this becomes a force that pacifies him. A change of momentum. He realises that if left alone, they would return and so will the fear. He knows the Baraka will be shelled, but still he goes there. But he is not st.upid, for when shelling begins, he knows. Everyone knows. Even the cats. He knows too that what the Shabaab are doing is mandatory; is necessary. Tough but necessary, he concedes. He looks up and remembers his twin brother...

 

Have I told you the story about his brother? No? Well then, his name is Rabiic. He lives on a coastal strip, South East of the Mediterranean Sea. Though amiable on the exterior, a fervent heart beats inside. Most of his family is buried under the rubble after an air strike, including his own 2-year old daughter. He brushes the debris off himself and stands tall. Trickles of blood ooze out from his face. Though his teary eyes and his blackened cheeks divulge a grim story, he is optimistic. Over the years, he has built the courage to make it through any obstacle. He is resilient. He smiles. A deadly smile; unyielding and uncompromising. He calls his family ‘Shuhadaa’ or Martyrs. All sentimentality is wrung out of his chest; amputated, to the very last drop. Yet he doesn’t blame the young boy with the warafwho threw the stone that injured the transgressing soldier. The stone in whose retaliation, his family braced the dust. He calls the young boy a ‘Mujaahid’ or a Holy Worrior.

 

Rabiic also happens to have a farm. A small but productive farm. An orchard, in fact. It belonged to his great grandfather. It was once alive. The trees bore some sweet dark fruits. A relishing sight it was. Not now though. An eerie silence fills the atmosphere. No chirruping birds; no melodious song thrushes, no fluttering butterflies, no buzzing bees. Just silence. A shroud of fog envelopes the figs. Withered and wasted they lie, with dust decorating the shrubbery. When opportunity presents itself, he attempts to bring the plants back to life. He steals water from the nearby pipeline. But then they come and trample on the fresh vegetation.

 

See the Jew knows what is vital in keeping Rabiic under constraint. He is adamant to keep Rabiic confined to a point where he can’t flee, and will die before fleeing. This is the art of war, he assumes. Rabiic too knows the predicament very well. He knows that the Jew intends to starve him, as he gradually inches in on his land. He knows that sooner or later they will come to demolish the orchard, but he is resilient. He is full of determination. His will cannot be broken. He is willing to suffer, to bear the burden, to go through the throes of degradation so his children could live in dignity. One day he says, he will emerge from the gutter. One day. The day, he sees, is close.

 

See both Rabiic and his brother Abdi know that their adversaries are meting out collective punishments so that a public outcry is achieved; so that the young boys throwing stones or 120s should be seen as the culprits, just as Ali was. They are not a little wet behind the ears, you see.

 

It is a predicament. A predicament of sorts.

 

Now, If we quit the banter and get back to the Sharci perspective of the shelling. Take this on board: As long as the invading force captures even the size of a hand-span of land in Somalia (or any other Muslim nation), then fighting for that land and using whatever means necessary to defeat the invading enemy to regain it is an OBLIGATION upon the people of that land. This is when Jihad becomes Fardhul Cayn. And there is a general consensus on this, starting from the pious predecessors until now.

 

As for Shabab news on SoL, now that would be something wouldn’t it! Only if they employed someone like Dukey!

 

Again, Dacwa is necessary. It is a must. And I see that you are rebuking me on behalf on Al Shabaab. But my posts are to enlighten you and the rest. It is a ‘take it or leave it’ situation, but be warned and don’t say you weren’t informed! marka Jeedslka iga daa ina-adeer.

[Cara.]

Really? So 1.5 million IDPs are living in dignity bestowed on them by endless war? Their resolve and pride in the "mujahideen" is so strong that they flee their homes and live in refugee camps? Really?

[Naden]

^ Flowery language and chest-thumping religious sentiment (by the curiously safe and well-fed) trump your IDPs and their sob stories. If they want their souls saved, they will flee on their raggedy little feet with a wink and a smile for the mujaahids of this miserable land. I've never seen a more attention-seeking group, those IDPs.

[Sherban Shabeel]

It's disturbing how easy it is for a group of ex-rapists and murderers to gain support by simply slapping an "Islamic" label onto their group. Shabaab's appeal to certain members of this board (who don't live under their rule, may I add) is absolutely mesmerizing and beyond reason.

 

Just like fools in the West automatically associate "Islamic" with "terrorist", fools in the Muslim World associate "Islamic" with "hero". One needs to look deeper than a name or a label.

 

I'm a Christian and yet I would have been proud to fight against Christian Ethiopia (may I add that their form of Christianity is exactly the same as ours in RO) when they invaded Somalia. Just because a group calls itself "Christian" doesn't mean I'll blindly support them - it's the actions that I'm looking at, and if the actions aren't Christian then the name doesn't matter much to me. Are Shabaab's actions truly Muslim?

 

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it until my tongue falls off: Shabaab of the invasion period is not the same as Shabaab of 2009. During the Ethiopian withdrawal, many resistance fighters gravitated towards the government and towards the restoration of Somalia, while the youngest soldiers of God finally found themselves without a war to fight, and therefore without a reason to exist. Shabaab of 2009 is a disgruntled group of violent young men who grew up with civil war around them, who don't have a solid leadership, who DO NOT KNOW what peace feels like.

 

Al-Shabaab has been REPEATEDLY given the chance to sit down and become part of the new government, of the new age of restoration. And yet, out of greed, or madness, or bloodlust, or who-knows-what, they went to war against the government in May, FAILED to unseat it (as I'd rightly predicted) and PLUNGED SOMALIA BACK INTO THE CESSPIT IT WAS CRAWLING OUT FROM.

 

2009 is the year when Shabeel has turned his back on Shabaab. I can never respect traitors, and I cannot respect people who respect traitors. If you support Shabaab because your cousin is in it, it's cool. But if you support Shabaab ideologically, after all that has happened, quite frankly you're a clown.

[rudy-Diiriye]

First of all happy kwanzaa everyone!! reading this thread really made me laugh so hard and i cant imagine how really naive some flight 13eens have become when it comes to somalia matters.

 

So u think following: Al-Blunder should notify folks when they gonna shell the killers! hell no

 

Ro boy! plz your support is not needed here, your folks are the reason that we as somalis are in this nitemare today...so step!

 

Remember 2006, somalia was cool then, but guess who didnt like this picture? Your uncle gw bushwage mofo! remember that! plz dont play dumb now.

 

So far, my pick is still Al-blunder aka al-shabab since they have the best idea when it comes to liberating our land. However, i dont think them and i could chill and hang out. I live for the day and not for the next live. That said, i wish them good luck.

[Nur]

Naden sis writes:

 

Flowery language and chest-thumping religious sentiment (by the curiously safe and well-fed) trump your IDPs and their sob stories

 

 

Sister, Intellectuals talk about ideas, street people talk about events, but talking about people who are discussing ideas is really a low point, I have not known you as such.

 

Please talk about the content.

 

 

Nur

[Naden]

Nur, the heavens know how much I enjoy a good debate. With ideas. I see you are not bothered by the literary devices employed in the thread from allegories to hyperboles but felt the need to police my tone. No problem. My opinion is that Al Shabaab (and Hizbul Islam or Milat Ibrahim) could be the best thing to happen to Somalis since sliced laxoox and Omar Dulle.

 

However, as long as Aqeedah is obfuscating criticism/questions directed at those vying for political power (as though anyone knows what is in the hearts of men), others will call BS on actions every time. And no, questioning Al Shabaab does not mean supporting that murderous, puppet entity.