A Muslim figure suggests women to stop wearing hijab

[bint abee saeed]

quote:

Honest to God I don't know what the fuss is about. These are the kinds of questions(e.g: what if u're in a desert and u only have pork to eat?) that I got out of the way as a child, the answers to which were based on common sense.

 

in islam nothing is based on common sense and reasoning with the intellect as a source of proof. we have two sources of revelation. the quran and the sunnah. they tell us what to do. 'if you're stuck in a desert and there is only pork to eat' what do we do? the quran answered that.

if you're in a desert and there is no water what do you do? the sunnah answered that.

an excellent example is the hadeeth of ali about wiping over the khuffs (footwear that pass the ankles). he said in the hadeeth, 'if the religion was based on the intellect we would wipe under the khuff, but i saw the messenger wiping over the khuff.'

 

you're right scholars are not there to baby sit, but we take knowledge from them, and we learn the halal and haram from them, and the detailed matters of the religion that we cannot answer at our level. so we hope for guidance from them.

[-Nomadique-]

Originally posted by bint abee saeed:

in islam nothing is based on common sense and reasoning with the intellect.

?. I thought through common sence and reasoning we obtain a better understanding and appreciation of our deen. Throughout the Quran there are many ayats that call to our reasoning and common sence. So to say that nothing is based on common sense and reasoning would be incorrect. You are absolutely correct to say that the Quran and sunnah are a source of knowledge. But I would have intepreted the last hadith you quoted as an example of how the Sunnah is a superior source in these matters. Well thats my two cents. If I am wrong then please enlighten me.

 

Allah knows best.

[bint abee saeed]

we use our intellect as a guide to understand but not to explain. i should of said "reasoning with the intellect and common sense shouldnt be used as proof"

the thing is our intellect is limited to our knowledge, experiences and surroundings etc.

just like ali radiyallahu an said. i myself used to wipe under my khuff, it made perfect sense to do so, then i learnt the hadith.

this is why you would find many people with different understandings of the texts. so how do we avoid this? by returning to the understanding of the companions and the 2 generations that followed them. since they had the purest understanding of the deen.

and really the religion has not left anything out or unanswered, every single issue revelant to all ages and eras has been addressed.

 

and i'm sure an issue as great as this one (the situation of muslims' in uk) has been answered or an example can be found for it in the sunnah. but i doubt the first option would be remove the hijab to be safe in an hostile environment.

besides it brings you back to square one: put it back on to avoid molestation.

 

in the earlier years of revelation, the companions were being brutally tortued, murdered etc. so they migrated. some went to abbisinia, which was a kafir country, inorder to be safe.

and some remained in makkah and hid their faith, and ended up fighting in the battles against the muslims.

 

i really don't think the situation in the uk is as bad as this. but the point is, the reasoning that was used to conclude that 'the quran justified the abandoning of the hijab', is exactly just that 'reasoning in the 21 century'.

 

'the hijab was ordered so that they would not be recognized and consequently attacked,"

so we reason, therefore if it leads to being recognized and attacked, it should not be worn. (again back to square one, no hijab=harrassed)

 

this is like saying, fasting in ramadan was perscribed so that we obtain taqwa. so we reason that if you can't obtain taqwa then one shouldn't fast.

 

i know the situations in my comparison are different but the reasoning used to reach the fatwa is similar.

 

wallaahu ta'alaa 'alam

[NGONGE]

This is really not fair. Not fair at all. I don’t like to keep pulling people up for talking rubbish but when the issues are as momentous as these, I’m left with no choice.

 

Salafi, I also have my reservation about this ‘fatwa’. Like I already said at the start of this thread, I would not encourage my womenfolk to follow it. Yet, at the same time, I refuse to dismiss it (extreme or not). For me to dismiss his fatwa as flawed, I’ll have to question his ability and knowledge. I’ve looked at his CV, looked at his history and education and even noticed that respected sites like Islamonline seek his fatwas from time to time. Other than the written words of brother Shams-el-Deen above, I have not heard or read of any Muslim scholars advising us not to listen to Dr Badawi. Now, whilst I’m not calling Shams-el-Deen a liar, I trust that he’ll understand why I can’t possibly take his words as truth with no proof (what he wrote above is, for the time being, nothing but slander).

 

Brothers (and sensible sisters) when replying to these topics don’t go for winning the argument alone, go for the correct argument. Try to be straight with yourselves. Read your words again and again and see if you’re not just being angry and arguing obvious points.

 

 

Salafi, I read on the “net†that Sheikh Albani was not really much of a Sheikh. Some of the sites and articles dedicated to his slander were very well written and highly convincing. They, like you’re doing above, question his credentials and say that he did not have Ijaazah! Should I fall for their words or should I keep on searching and looking until I find something concrete that proves their correctness or otherwise. Common sense of course, will also dictate that I hold my tongue while in doubt instead of casting aspersions.

 

Can Dr Badawi or can he not issue fatwas about Hijab? Is his method wrong? Who says? If it’s only you that says this (and this is to all that doubt the Dr), are you more qualified than him? If not, don’t you think you’re doing him, us and yourself a disservice by this casual way of dealing with the issue?

 

Below is a letter he sent to the Times Newspaper:

 

 

 

Letters to the Editor

 

 

August 10, 2005

Advice on the hijab

 

FROM THE CHAIRMAN OF THE COUNCIL OF MOSQUES AND IMAMS

 

 

Sir, You suggest (leading article, August 5) that in publishing the advice to women to shed the hijab if they feared assault my colleagues and I “regrettably helped to further the notion that the headscarf is a symbol of hateâ€. I agree that it would have been better to have communicated this matter privately but we felt that those who prey on vulnerable women are not short of encouragement and, other women having sought similar advice, that the issue was of intense debate within the Muslim community.

 

Our aim was simply to allay the anxiety of young Muslim women who are torn between their sense of religious obligation and their need for security.

 

ZAKI BADAWI

Muslim College

Ealing, London

 

 

Source

[S.O.S]

I refuse to dismiss it (extreme or not). For me to dismiss his fatwa as flawed, I’ll have to question his ability and knowledge. I’ve looked at his CV, looked at his history and education and even noticed that respected sites like Islamonline seek his fatwas from time to time. Other than the written words of brother Shams-el-Deen above, I have not heard or read of any Muslim scholars advising us not to listen to Dr Badawi. Now, whilst I’m not calling Shams-el-Deen a liar, I trust that he’ll understand why I can’t possibly take his words as truth with no proof (what he wrote above is, for the time being, nothing but slander).

Brother Ngonge,

Well, if you’re just discovering Dr Badawi’s CV, then I see no other reason for us to talk about the sheikh now, let along his history, but I would sincerely advice you to acquaint yourself with some information about the object you supposed to be defending, instead of rendering all that you’re ignorant of or is new to you as slanderous! By accusing me of slander (unless of course you can proof that what I said is false or that the sheikh never made such comments, which I doubt very much judging by your limited knowledge about the sheikh), you have ironically enough uttered that which you have accused me of doing, and made an undeniable defamatory slander against my person. Don’t worry; you don’t need to apologies for that.

 

I’m not sure in what part of the world you live in, but we (various Muslim communities in the UK) have collectively rejected this man long time ago. All the mosques that I’ve been in the city I live in, have all unanimously agreed on the baseless pretences in which this ‘fatwa’ is based upon. All the Muslim sisters groups in the UK have condemned this so called ‘fatwa’, and since this was a ‘fatwa’ only meant for the Muslims in the UK, and they (Muslims in the UK) have overwhelmingly rejected it, no one is asking for anyone’s permission here.

 

All praise is due to Allah, who didn’t made his religion dependent on status, CV, power, academic title, fame and all other worldly “lifetime achievements awardsâ€, which may serve as a tool to awe some of “us†simple-minded victims, but had based upon His Qur’aan and the Sunnah of His Prophet.

 

All praise is due to Allah, who made our religion not a religion of blind following of a so called “grand muftiâ€, like some other religions, where all final authority rests upon the rabbi, clergy or pope, that we are now free from prosecutions and being burned at the stable (even if some may wish to do with me here), but had been a reality for many of the above mentioned religions. Think of Bishop Pothinus and his followers who dissented against Pope Elutherus, think of Iranaeus who refused to follow the Pope, think of Leonidas, Origen, Diodorus, Pamphilus, Donatus, Arius, Eusebius, Lewis Hetzer, Michael Servatus, Francis Davidis, Faustus Socinus, John Biddle, etc.

 

If you go on and keep defending men you don’t know, with no eye for the truth whatsoever (as you care more about winning arguments, otherwise you would have showed some restrains in your absolute judgements of condemning those who’ve questioned this man’s religious reasoning based on the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and you’d not have dismissed everything inconvenient to your “crusade†as all lies), then all praise is due to Allah, who didn’t give you the power the “church†used to have.

 

For clarity to all those who are supporting this ‘fatwa’ based on the “pork in the dessert†analogy, here’s something for you:

 

When a sister is in danger and is at gunpoint or she is unable to cross the street because of hiding snipers, then NO fatwa is needed, the sister can REMOVE her xijaab as she wishes, she is FREE to choose and Dr Badawi shouldn’t flatter himself to believe that his ‘fatwa’ is needed to safe lives.

 

Please don’t mix religion with your personal opinion or preferences and defend this man, but rather side with the truth and ask your self the validity of his religious reasoning. If you are incapable to do so, then ask someone with knowledge and find the truth that way. All I was trying here was to give you some insight in to the issue by presenting to you a valid objections and each time from a different angle which will be a lot easier for some of us to digest, besides that; I hate repeating myself.

 

If we go back to the one verse the sheikh derived his ‘fatwa’ from, and base our reasoning on that one verse out of the context of the prophetic traditions, we encounter with the following possibilities:

 

 

1) The logic of alternative; if the xijaab is already a form of protection, then it’s irresponsible to remove an existing protection that Allah commanded us, so we go for the alternatives (I think we all know the alternatives).

 

2) The logic of protection by recognition; if prior to the revelation of this verse all women dressed alike, then the recognition of Muslim women from all non-Muslim women was a key to their protection. Clearly, Allah in His wisdom must have decreed that harassments, social ills, cultural foes, molestations and all other associated harms with not wearing xijaab and not being recognised from other women, must out-weight all other potential dangers caused by wearing the xijaab!

 

3) The logic of faith; to have faith in what Allah predetermined for you and accept with endurance whatever comes your way in carrying out your obligatory duties, even if it means martyrdom.

 

4) And finally his logic, which is the least reasonable, and the reason I made this logic as the last one and have not added few more is; first, the obligatory nature of the xijaab is not always accepted as given, because of the out of context verse; secondly, therefore the logic keeps moving away from the teachings of Islam, which may include; removing the xijaab if you are known to be Muslim, or not in the streets, or in a 100% Muslim country, or when praying in the mosque etc, in all these cases xijaab becomes unnecessary according to some of these logic, when the verse is used out of context! But would you defend any so called ‘fatwa’ ordering us just to do that, because we’re not allowed to question the validity of his reasoning?

 

I’ve reached now at a stage where the best course of action is to retire from this discussion of “fan-clubs†and hooliganism, which does more harm than good.

 

WCWW

[NGONGE]

Brother Ngonge,

By accusing me of slander (unless of course you can proof that what I said is false or that the sheikh never made such comments, which I doubt very much judging by your limited knowledge about the sheikh), you have ironically enough uttered that which you have accused me of doing, and made an undeniable defamatory slander against my person. Don’t worry; you don’t need to apologies for that.

My dear irate brother if you would only stop and pay attention to etiquette and manners you really would get far. You are the one who started casting aspersions on Dr Badawi‘s person and knowledge, you have not provided any proof, and therefore it is nothing but (unless you can provide us with some hasty proof of course) slander. You see, I can also claim that Dr Badawi is a great magician: I saw him make a pig fly. I saw it with my own eyes. You have to trust me on this. If you say that he can’t make pigs fly, you’ll have to bring proof of what you say or apologise for implying that I’m a liar.

 

Saaxib, you really need to rid yourself of the Waxa la Yedhi mentality. If you have no proof, don't make the accusation in public.

 

 

I’m not sure in what part of the world you live in, but we (various Muslim communities in the UK) have collectively rejected this man long time ago. All the mosques that I’ve been in the city I live in, have all unanimously agreed on the baseless pretences in which this ‘fatwa’ is based upon. All the Muslim sisters groups in the UK have condemned this so called ‘fatwa’, and since this was a ‘fatwa’ only meant for the Muslims in the UK, and they (Muslims in the UK) have overwhelmingly rejected it, no one is asking for anyone’s permission here.

I live in the UK and have been here for a long time. I'm not aware of anyone rejecting this man (was it you and four of your mullah mates?). The sisters groups you speak of all said they respected the Dr but chose not to follow his fatwa (they did not reject his fatwa - scroll up and read some of the links I posted.

 

We back on the "Waxa la yedhi"?

 

 

All praise is due to Allah, who made our religion not a religion of blind following of a so called “grand muftiâ€, like some other religions, where all final authority rests upon the rabbi, clergy or pope, that we are now free from prosecutions and being burned at the stable (even if some may wish to do with me here), but had been a reality for many of the above mentioned religions. Think of Bishop Pothinus and his followers who dissented against Pope Elutherus, think of Iranaeus who refused to follow the Pope, think of Leonidas, Origen, Diodorus, Pamphilus, Donatus, Arius, Eusebius, Lewis Hetzer, Michael Servatus, Francis Davidis, Faustus Socinus, John Biddle, etc.

“He helped Joshua fight the battle of Jericho, he helped Daniel get out the lion's den, he helped Gilligan get off the island†- Coming to America.

 

 

If you go on and keep defending men you don’t know, with no eye for the truth whatsoever (as you care more about winning arguments, otherwise you would have showed some restrains in your absolute judgements of condemning those who’ve questioned this man’s religious reasoning based on the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and you’d not have dismissed everything inconvenient to your “crusade†as all lies), then all praise is due to Allah, who didn’t give you the power the “church†used to have.

Oh, dry your eyes out, son. Provide proof for your slander and stop this business of winning arguments. For an argument to be won or lost, the other side has to know the rules of the game, you don't.

 

 

For clarity to all those who are supporting this ‘fatwa’ based on the “pork in the dessert†analogy, here’s something for you:

 

When a sister is in danger and is at gunpoint or she is unable to cross the street because of hiding snipers, then NO fatwa is needed, the sister can REMOVE her xijaab as she wishes, she is FREE to choose and Dr Badawi shouldn’t flatter himself to believe that his ‘fatwa’ is needed to safe lives.

Are you starting to issue your own fatwas now, saaxib? Where is your DALEEL (you like that word? I know you new Mullahs love to sprinkle your speech with Arabic words from time to time).

 

 

Please don’t mix religion with your personal opinion or preferences

and defend this man, but rather side with the truth and ask your self the validity of his religious reasoning.

If you are incapable to do so, then ask someone with knowledge

and find the truth that way. All I was trying here was to give you some insight in to the issue by presenting to you a valid objections and each time from a different angle which will be a lot easier for some of us to digest, besides that; I hate repeating myself.

Warya, I’m lost with you now. One minute you say don’t listen to Dr Badwi and the next you say if we’re not sure we should go and ask someone with knowledge! Is there a list of designated Mullahs we can ask or should we come to you?

 

The real worry is that many people would hear all this “praise be to Allah “ of yours and on the strength of that alone, find themselves falling for your nonsense. Oh, and what nonsense it is!

 

A little knowledge is indeed a dangerous thing.

 

I’ve reached now at a stage where the best course of action is to retire from this discussion of “fan-clubs†and hooliganism, which does more harm than good.

I dare say that this was the most sensible thing you’ve ever written. I hope you stick by your words.

 

 

The mocking, derision and sneering is all done on purpose. None of this is personal though.

 

 

I know I’m blowing a bust balloon, I know I am.

[S.O.S]

When I said I retire from this discussion, I should have helped end it as well. This is why I’m posting this conclusion (which I hope you’ll agree) and not because of whatever opinions you’ve expressed above, as these are all words with no backing or meaning from religious literature, which remindes me of the saying "barking dogs don’t bite," So this is about providing us with a new bone that may occupy and silence some of us, because even barking becomes irritating after a while too.

 

The below fatwa is was issued long before Dr Badawi's and is available at Islamweb.net

>

Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds; and blessings and peace be upon our Prophet Muhammad and upon all his Family and Companions.

It is compulsory an every Muslim woman to cover her hair from alien men. She should not show her hair to anyone other than the persons Allah mentioned in the following Aayah: {And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like palms of hands or one eye or both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer dress like veil, gloves, head-cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islâm), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allâh to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful.}[24: 31].

All the Muslim Scholars are agreed that a woman should cover her head, neck and ears. It is the rule of Allah that He makes good Muslim men and women face trials and misfortunes to raise their ranks and forgive their sins. You should not give up wearing Hijab even though you may face problems or the people may laugh at you. If you give up wearing Hijab you follow the Satan, thus disobeying Allah.

How many believing women remained patient and firm ignoring all problems and strictly followed their religion and as a result people, regardless of their ages, showed them respect and followed their good example.

We advise you to stick firmly to this good act, i.e. wearing Hijab. You know that the best persons among human beings are Messengers. They faced trials and misfortunes more than any other persons.

We ask Allah to help us to follow His path and to act as pleases Him.

 

Allah knows best.

Fatwa center supervised by Dr. Abdullah Al-faqih

>

 

I don’t expect from you to criticise Dr Badawi for contradicting the above fatwa, or attempt to scrutinise his religious reasoning used to justify his claim. Neither do I expect from you to criticise us for upholding the above fatwa over the Dr Badawi’s hysteric issuance of irresponsible calls. What I do expect from you is, as usual, a highly opinionated chit-chat to defend your initial dogmatic preferences, but you shouldn’t bother.

 

I know a lot of ‘fatwa’ shoppers, who have one ‘fatwa’ for selling alcohol, another ‘fatwa’ for consuming riba/interest, another for listening music, and another for not wearing xijaab. If you show little consistency, you’ll find out that you have to defend all these ‘fatwas’ along the same lines you’re defending this one. Are you going to defend all these? Or are you going to criticise us for rejecting them?

 

I would advice you a few things; first slow down a bit and take a deep breath; second, understand your limits; and finally, you should go to mosques more oftenly.