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At an educational institution: Professing to be wise, they became fools ...


"LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with God."

The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Muslim, aren't you, son?"


"Yes, sir."


"So you believe in God?"




"Is God good?"


"Sure! God's good."


"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"




The professor grins knowingly and considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you try?"


"Yes sir, I would."


"So you're good...!"


"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could in fact most of us would if we could... God doesn't."


[No answer]


"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Muslim who died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. How is this God good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"


[No answer]


The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones.


"Let's start again, young fella."


"Is God good?"


"Err... Yes."


"Is Satan good?"




"Where does Satan come from?" The student falters.


"From... God..."


"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience. "


"I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen."


He turns back to the Muslim. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"


"Yes, sir."


"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"




"Who created evil?"


[No answer]


"Is there sickness in this world? Immorality?"


" Hatred?"


"Ugliness? All the terrible things - do they exist in this world?"


The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."


"Who created them? "


[No answer]


The professor suddenly shouts at his student.




The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Muslim's face.


In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't He, son?"


[No answer]


The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized.


"Tell me," he continues,


How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?


The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?


[No answer]


Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?




"Don't you?"


The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers, Is God good?"


[No answer]


"Do you believe in God, son?"


The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do."


The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. You have never seen God, Have you?


"No, sir. I've never seen Him."


"Then tell us if you've ever heard your God?"


"No, sir. I have not."


"Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God or smelt your fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"


[No answer]


"Answer me, please."


"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't." "You're AFRAID... you haven't?"


"No, sir."


"Yet you still believe in him?"




"That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling. According to the rules of


empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"


[The student doesn't answer]


"Sit down, please."


The Muslim sits...Defeated.


Another Muslim raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"


The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Muslim in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."


The Muslim looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. "Is there such thing as heat?"


Yes, the professor replies. "There's heat."


"Is there such a thing as cold?"


"Yes, son, there's cold too."


"No, sir, there isn't."


The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold. The second Muslim continues. You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 - - You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. "Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."


Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.


"Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"


"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?"So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"




"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"


Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester.


"Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"


"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...."


"The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!"


"Sir, may I explain what I mean?"


The class is all ears.


"Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself.


He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.


"You are working on the premise of duality," the Muslim explains. "That for example there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought."


..."It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing."


... "Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it." The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbour who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"


"Of course there is, now look..."


"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?"


The Muslim pauses.


"Isn't evil the absence of good?"


The professor's face has turned an alarming colour.


He is so angry he is temporarily speechless.


The Muslim continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work, God is accomplishing? Islam tells us it is to see if each one of us will, choose good over evil."


The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't vie this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."


"I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the Muslim replies. "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"


"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."


"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"


The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare.


"Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?"


"I will overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.


"So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"


"I believe in what is - that's science!"


"Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin.


"Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed..."


"SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters.


The class is in uproar. The Muslim remains standing until the commotion has subsided.


"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?"


The professor wisely keeps silent. The Muslim looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen air, Oxygen, molecules, atoms, the professor's brain?"


The class breaks out in laughter. The Muslim points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor.


"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain... felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain?"


No one appears to have done so. The Muslim shakes his head sadly. It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that the professor has no brain."


The Muslim sits... Because that is what a chair is for!!!


Please forward to others to spread the benefit & increase reward you will get insha-allah. Do forward it to your contacts !



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Very profound dialoque. I enjoyed reading it and I appreciate you taking your time for putting this together and forwarding it for many people like myself. Again, thanks.


Peace and love.

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That was great... Showing them there error with their logic, like Abraham and the king.



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3 words for my old friend Kowneyn " utter non sense". Why do you have to labell the student a Muslim??? he could have been a christian or Jewish and still have made that argument. Since the argument is about the existence of God the student could of have been any one.. its a "feel Good" Muslim wadaad's vomit and probaganda.


The professor in this dailogue have asked legitmate and logicall questions. While your Muslim hero asked speculative questions that the sience have not found answer for yet.Menawhile the Porfessor only asked what religion stated, he merely followed the basic facts of religion to their conclusion. Eaxmple:


For instance, Have god created Good and Evil?? according to most religons god have created everything.= 1


Is god Good??? in the Quran and Bible god is good.= 1


:. since God have created everthing, there fore god have created Evil.= 2. mathmathically, 1+1= 2.


You have to bear in mind that the professor dosn't claim anything he merely is following a logical premises to a logicall conclusion. So if the professor couldn't answer few question such as , the witnessing of evolution it dons'nt mean the Muslim student have won the argument. Sceince is a progressive subject, it changes , and evoloves with new more complexe discovery, its dynamic in nature , you can't make any conclusion on an ever changing ever moveing theroms.


But we can't make the same assumtion about religion, religion is an static stationary theroy. The facts never changes, and seince with the expetion of Math doesn't claim perfection. So its permisable that the professor can't answer some hypothtical question, he never said he could to begin with.



Been fair and logical I think the professor have won the argument with ease,

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You are apparently trying to make a point here, but only point you have made is that no matter how sophisticated a beast becomes in nature he remains a beast...granted sophisticated beast who speaks of logic and uses the internet.


Its therefore a waist of time to speak logic to a sophisticated beast like you. Who uses the life and mercy that ALLAAH gave him to sow the seeds of hatred and misunderstanding and to chase pple from the path of ALLAAH.


Those who know you, know that u post under multiple aliases and u debate urself using subjects that are inflammatory inorder to cause sickness and hatred among somalis. Has science become the refuge for sophisticated beast like you? Well know that science will not excuse your sorry existence. The day u develop a spine and integrity. The day you are truly a man of purpose with even the smallest spark of light in his soul that is the day to discuss with you logical matter.


But while u remain the instrument of the devil and speak his inspiration its of no use to speak to a deaf mute beast whose heart ALLAAH has closed and who ALLAAH set on the path to the hell-fire.


Guidance is from ALLAAH and if u ever become guided that is the day u will understand what I am talking about. Right now ur set on a path. May ALLAAH safeguard us from your fitna and that of every sick devil.








[This message has been edited by Admin (edited 05-16-2002).]

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First and Foremost this is not something made up, it actually occured at a university and this dialogue has been widely spread. What I get out of it is the weakness of some of us Muslims and the strengths of others. For EXAMPLE (and this is ONLY an EXAMPLE and not a IMPLICATION OF ANY SORT)The people from Nation of Islam, they are so well taught to dialogue and area GREAT speakers of philosophy, logic, reality, and they KNOW how to make their points (TRAINED WELL) even though they may have very little knowledge of Islam. On the other hand u have some of us who have been Muslim all our lives and may even be VERY knowledgeable but when put in front of a crowd or a fool like the professor we cannot avoid silence, which to ME (and MAYBE me alone) means PICK WHO U BATTLE WITH AND HOW U DO IT AND WITH WHAT U BATTLE FOR. Islam or GOD is NOT a topic to be taken lightly and one with even GREAT knowledge cannot handle it without the help of Allah SWT.


that's my 2 cents!!!


Ko...thanx for the reminder bro, I had lost my copy.



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Unix Guru when I was reading it I was thinking just like Ibraaheem and the King. That's just supreme arrogance. Allah says in the quran. "Doth not man see that it is We who created him from sperm? Yet behold! he(stands forth) as an open adversary."(36:77)

I am glad the other Muslim student put him in his place.

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Hello everyone, I found this topic to be interesting so I decided to reply.


First off, what difference what religion the student is. Since this is a predominantly Muslim board you would think that the student would be shown as Muslim. The point of the story is not to extoll the virtues of Islam but raise questions about certain philosophical points of view.


Secondly, while there are some very interesting points in the story there are some things that I find incorrect about it.


First evolution is on on going process that has been witnessed and recorded. The evolution that we witness over a short time span is called "micro-evolution" by creationists. (creationists are people who believe in the biblical/Koran version that God/Allah created the world, they do not believe in evolution.) "Macro-evolution", the theory that man evolved from monkeys and similar evolutional patterns hasn't been witnessed because it takes place over millions of years. But all marco-evolution is is micro-evolution expanded outward. It is very logical and has a basis in known scientific thought and processes, such as genetics and natural seletion. If you REALLY want to debate this I could try and have a good natured discusssion and start posting some links and all, but as of now I'll leave it as is, evolution has been witnesses in nature.


Second, the comparison between good/evil and hot/cold is IMO erroneous. Yes, cold is the absence of heat but evil is not the absence of good, it is a thing in and of itself. It is not a condition but a choosen path. The reason such and analogy (hot/cold @ evil/good) makes some sence is that we define good and evil by comparing them to one another. Good is defined by how we percieve evil and visa versa. An example of this is an act of someone maybe considered righteous and good by one group of people but evil by another. Just pick up a newspaper to find a instance where that happens. i.e one person's terrorists is another person's freedom fighter. Because they are dependent on each other for definition that makes them a diacotemy. (sp?) How we DEFINE them is what makes them interconnected, but each exists seperatly and is its own entity.


Hope I didn't ramble on too much. cwm35.gif

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This is quite interesting, I don't kno how I could have missed it b4. A lot of food for thought. Thanx Kowneyn.



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Hmm,,, from a Scientific point of View i find that, a complete utter, un-called for, baseless, Intrinsic,Un-true Allegation(s),, and plz dont Use Philosophy as a Platform for ur Political( i cant really proove this) Supremacies,


Well its all bout Do the Do Before the Do Does U? right!


On the Other hand a Muslim,, i find it challenging Despite the Obvious Fact that the latter couldnt find ways out of the puzzle,, yeah call it one-on-one situazone and I say its Unfair not forgetting this was a Tailored Question 2 the Rookie(student),,


And to Conclude.. i Propose Religion stays a couple of Hundred yards away from Science and Vice Versa,, ;) :cool:


Tanag Ya'll

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Brilliant! I adore dat!


I have to say that I agree with Fat Lazy American.

Especially on the evolution part


However I'd like to add that I believe the reason of evil being present in the world is simply to test us. Allah(SWT) created all his angles and when He told them to bow down towards Adam(CS) facing him, one of His angles said No (i.e Shaydan) Why he said no is still unclear. Another thing, when Adam and Eve were living together in Paradise and they were both ordered not to Touch the Apple, what made them touch it? evil right or was it just lack of goodness?


Allah(SWT) has in His Book-Quran written for us the clear way we should live our lives, however at the same time, it states how NOT to live our lives. Therefore Allah(SWT) has taught us right from wrong & He has taught us our punishments for not obeying His orders.


X.Playa u wrote: "...religion is an static stationary theroy. The facts never changes..."

if these things didnt change howcome there is the 'Old' Testament & the New Testament?


Oki perhaps the Koweyn could have written Christian or Jew instead of Muslim. But what difference does it make? All groups are God-fearing groups & we identify them as people with a True Religion. As Fat Lazy American said this forum has a predominantly Muslim audience-So it would appeal to them.


At the end of the day Allah (SWT) gave us free will, we can do what we want & when we want.

Likewise we can believe what we want.


Now is de question is;

is de glass half full or

half empty.

Every has their view-Have urs ;)


Piece ov Lofe

Ur sis ExDane

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