bilan Posted April 26, 2004 Originally posted by Salafi_Online: Innalhamdulillah....Wa aSalamu alaykum x-Q Like i said Earlier...its not permissable for a women to ask for a divorce cause her husband wants to get married to a second women...as for Being just to them all...he is only required to be just them in a financial way...or Materialistic way.Which by the way is possible...however he way love one wive more then the other...Like the messenger of Allah(saas) love Aisha more then all his other wives...He heart was incline to her more...this is not something any human can control...So u are not held accountable By Allah...Refer to the Book of Ibnul Qayyim on multiple marriage Also Tafsir Ibn Kathir on the poligamy of this aayat.... warya QAC QAC this one is for u! salam even though this question was intended to sis x-quizit,i was surprised that anyone will deny woman the right to divorce,the right that islam gave to them more than 1400+ years, and will use the religion to deny it, is really unbelievable actually woman have the right to divorce their husband if they do not like him, that is why the khulca is there, secondly almost all the scholars agreed that women can ask for divorce if their husband takes another woman,you said they can not what is your proof? maybe you will like to read this fatwa. Marriage is a bond that unites two people who are in love to live as one for all eternity. It is the most beautiful part of life that we as human beings are able to experience. But, why does the liberty to divorce have to be so effortless. This is the major cause for the break up of marriages, many times, for no reason whatsoever. Why is it permitted to remarry twice or thrice thereafter? I have seen examples of people who keep more than 2 wives at a time. Is it permitted? Is this fair on womankind? Being a woman, I know that no woman would want to share her husband with another woman no matter what the circumstances are. I do feel that this liberty is misused very much. This has always been a very sensitive issue to me and I hope you will have an appropriate explanation. Date 2003/8/7 Name of Consultant Amani Aboul Fadl Farag Content of Reply Salaam Sister, Thank you for your question. In fact, it reveals a great deal of sensitivity and romanticism in your personality. You asked two questions one is about divorce the other is about polygamy. Your first question in which you complain about the effortlessness of divorce in Islam reminds me of another question that I once received from another questioner, complaining about the difficulty and rather impossibility of divorce in Islam! This means that both your complaints do not represent the absolute truth but they may be a reflection of certain situations that you both might have witnessed and have given you such impressions. To me, the policy of divorce in Islam is very wise and balanced, it is a midway between the two extremes of forbiddance and effortlessness. Having a look at those cultures that make divorce impossible, you'll find a bigger number of marital infidelities, more frequent visitations to psychologists, and more legal manipulations to seek refuge in what is termed "civil marriage" that guarantees easier divorce. Because you are young and idealistic you may think that the two people united in marriage after being in love will always be so, but reality says that in some cases love disappears and life brings about challenges that are too hard for some marriages to resist. In this case divorce and the chance to start a new happy life with some one else is a better choice than a miserable marriage, which would definitely lead to infidelity or depression. This does not mean that Islam - in its quest for people's happiness - makes divorce an easy option, but it comes as the last alternative after serious attempts for reconciliations. Please look up the links provided at the bottom of this answer to read previous answers related to divorce, then you will realize that though it is permitted and not impossible for both men and women to obtain it, yet it is not "that easy!" Concerning your second question about polygamy, I understand that it is difficult for all women, including the Prophet's wives, to accept this situation. This is as jealousy is an innate feeling born with every woman. But Islam in its genius balancing between the individual and the collective within the society, sees that there are many problems that appear due to limiting the number of wives absolutely to one. The first wife may be sterile while the husband wants to have children without divorcing her. Maybe he loves or maybe she doesn't have anywhere else to go if she is divorced. Also another reason is that a husband might not be very happy with a wife who does not respect or treat him decently, or denies him his marital rights - this behavior is more frequent than you imagine - while he cannot divorce her because of the children. In other cases, a husband is physiologically too strong to have one wife… Again in war times, when tens of thousands of men die leaving widows and orphans unattended, there is always a need of polygamy to help those ladies and save the whole society from a state of moral chaos, which would result from all these numbers of single women. Above all, those ladies have the same right - as you do - to have husbands! Imagine yourself or someone you love in this situation and you will change your idea. It is only because we are not the victims then we don't have enough sympathy. Such situations take place in all societies. In societies that do not permit polygamy, the alternative is definitely marital infidelity, relations outside marriage and psychological disturbance. On the other hand, Islam does not oblige a wife to accept sharing her husband with another woman. In case she cannot, she has the liberty to seek divorce. In general, I can tell you that both divorce and polygamy are options by which Allah has blessed our nation, in order to facilitate our lives and preserve our values. The misuse of such facilities by a few - and not many - irresponsible and hard hearted people, should not deprive others who may be in need of them and whose lives might be messed up without them. Thank you again for your question and please keep in touch. Salaam. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salafi_Online Posted April 26, 2004 Innalhamdulillah..Wa salamu alaykum X-Q The Teacher of Shaykh Uthaymeen( Was one of the leading scholar of islam) Rahimulillah His teacher said this: Imaam ‘Abdur-Rahmaan Ibn Naasir as-Sa’dee [d. 1376] says in the commentary of these verses [pg. 208]: “Allaah, the Most High, informs us that husbands do not have the ability to be completely just between wives, and that is because complete justice requires the presence of equal love, attraction, and an inclination of the heart, and then the action this necessitates, and this is impossible, therefore Allaah has pardoned him for what he is not able (to do), and has prohibited him from that which he has the ability with His Statement “So do not incline too much to one of them so as to leave the other hanging…”. Meaning, do not incline heavily to one (over the other) to the point where you do not give them their obligatory rights, rather do all that is in your power to be just (between them). So, maintenance, clothing, the division of time etc., it is upon you to be equal between them in these, as opposed to love, sexual intercourse, etc., so if the husband abandons his wife she becomes as if she is suspended, neither divorced so as to marry, nor married where she receives her rights.” [End of the words of As-Sa’dee] U can read the whole fatawah..Here. http://www.troid.org/articles/sisters/nikaah/ardentdesire.pdf This topic is address by the likes of Imam shawkaanee...Ibn Kathir..Ibn Taymiyyah..Etc.. X-Q if u do not know any of these people Ask brother NUR... NOr does the Man need the permission of his first wive to marry a second one...This is evident that the Messenger of Allah(saa) never asked permission to marry a second one...Truly he is our example! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salafi_Online Posted April 26, 2004 Innalhamdulillah...Wa salamu alaykum Hey Bulu who is this? Name of Consultant Amani Aboul Fadl Fara NOnetheless...Never did i say Divorce is not permissable...rather it is from islam and its halal to ask for divorce...i merely said that to ask for divorce you need a ligitamate reason...maybe he beats u...Maybe he neglects his duty...He doesnt do his responsibility...all these are ligitamate reasons....But kNow that one can not ask for divorce simply cause the husband wishes to marry a second wife. This in itself is not a ligitamate reason... wAALAL dONT PUT words in my mouth! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
x_quizit Posted April 26, 2004 Bulo, well said sista, excellent way of proving to Salafi that divorce is a way out if the wife chooses not to be a co-wife. Also salafi, u said i was "bla bla" ing about the "excuse of war times", well bulo's post shows u as well that that was the case back then when polygamy was more accepted and allowed. Also, i do not need to ask Nur, as i have my own brain functioning for me, and thank god i can utilize it to find the answers im seeking, but Nur is more than wlc to add his 2 cents, doesn't mean his word is gold or his interpretation. Also Salafi, for someone seeming to be quite versed in the quran, u seem to have convieniently forgotten or chosen not to use the sura when polygamy came aboard, and specifically came out like i was telling u earlier, at the times were orphans and widows were a high number and men were allowed by God to take them into their home by marrying them. Lastly, The Prophet, (saw), enjoyed many rights that normal beings can't enjoy, and he had more than 4 wives that is allowed, therefore, if U want to copy Him, then would u also have more than 4 wives? Common sense should prevail! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salafi_Online Posted April 26, 2004 Innalhamdulillah... X-Q Excellent? do u even know who that is X-Q or its that u take from anyone who agrees with ur thoughts! Instead of bla bla bla'in why dont u take the time to open Tafsir Ibn Kathir...and look up that Ayat...Surah 4...look for the explanation of it...Plus i gave u a site where the scholars of islam speak ...regarding this Ayat...But noooooooooooo did u take the time to look at it.... Also about the Messenger marrying more the 4 wive...yes it was a previlege and Allah said so...well its also a previleage for us to marry 4 wives cause Allah said so! Yes he didnt ask permission...nor did the Abu Bakr he has more then one wife..and those who followed them...So stop making this up.Like islam was invented yesterday! And as for that article Balul Posted...first, NO one knows who He is or They, they are unknown...Second he didnt provide one hadith or ayat to prove his case...So boooooooooooooo to u . So u reason..since we are not at war and there are planty of women around...there is no need for Polygamy...This is not the way the people of the SUnnah and way the scholars understood this...rather this is from the ignorant ones...Plus did the messenger of Allah say this..."oh marry more then one women cause we are at war" No rather i say this to u...the messenger of Allah(saas) said there will come a time when women will be 50 to 1 ration to man...and not cause of war! look at the states...they women population is double that of man...when when was the last time The USA had a war in their land! did the companions reason like you... X-Q maybe u thing islam is left to the opinion of Man..i think this ...i think that..bla bla bla bla .rather we stick to the narrations...and the scholar who are the inheritors of the PRophet...Submit, do not make up things to justify what you dont like! Its just a matter of submitting to Allah's commandments! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
x_quizit Posted April 26, 2004 Salafi, why don't u just say ur looking for excuses to marry 57 wives and u don't want to be bothered to ask the first? Of course not, cause she's a woman doesn't deserve ur respect huh? Marry as many as possible b/c u choose through narrow mindedness see things black and white and do not dissect and read btwn the lines...and furthermore, ur level of intelligence and maturity is seen keenly through ur response, not once, not 2x, but 3x, choose to refer to my answers as "bla bla". Therefore with such a narrowminded view, why bother answering to u since u only like to hear uself dear islamic scholar u, go on with ur bad self... Whether u like it or not, islam has given women the right to choose, and not u or any taliban minded individuals will take that right from us, so believe what u like, because u don't have to answer to me on Judgement day. May the forces be with u, whatever sect u follow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Qac Qaac Posted April 26, 2004 Salafi, I see ur a back up on the childish squad, nice to finally see ur true colors, and not hiding behind an islamic persona. Well done!!! Using the same lines as the others eh, "emotions"...uhmm Salafi just leave her alone... is no point of arguing with her... when she looses the debate she starts calling ppl names.. just debate with Bulo she is much knowledgable.. on her previous post she also said, no amount of debate will change her view.. which i find it close mindedness.. just make duah for her. that's all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Qac Qaac Posted April 26, 2004 Who says it has to be argumentative? You can express your ideas without attacking the individual believe it or not, so your more than wlc to add your 2 pesos, as long as its constructive. And there's nothing to correct, thats my view/opinion, and no amount of debating will change it, however this is where she said, nothing will change her mind... so no matter how many times u tell her, ibn katheer said this, or ibn qayyim, she would not listen only make duah for her, coz it is really serious issue.. here. or maybe u should not mention my name, coz now she thinks u r from my squad or the childish squad as she put it.. but everyone here sees who is child, admin no name calling right.. so salafi bro next time don't mention my name if u want them to listen to u... loool. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salafi_Online Posted April 26, 2004 Innalhamdulillah...wa Salamu alaykum islam has given women the right to choose X-Q more bla bla bla...If islam gave u the right to choose to divorce your husband simply cause he wants to marry a second wife....then where oh where is ur prove....give me an ayat....give me a hadith....give me a fatwah...From well know scholars of islam! X-Q Shame on u...for rely on ur opinion...this is why we are humilated around the world...cause people like u...who resort to their desires...instead of askin those who Know like were suppose to do. Nay, but those who do wrong follow their own lusts without knowledge, Then who will guide him whom Allâh has sent astray? And for such there will be no helpers. (30:29) And so judge (you O Muhammad SAW) between them by what Allâh has revealed and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they turn you (O Muhammad SAW) far away from some of that which Allâh has sent down to you.(5:49) Taliban Mind...Nah I aint down with the Taaliban...or their Khawarij like views. i reply on Kitab& and sunnah understood by the first three generation of the Muslims ie companions and those who followed them =Salafiyyah One last note: the messenger of Allah said," Do not acquire knowledge to argue with the ignorant."(muslim) So i leave u be! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bilan Posted April 26, 2004 salam well you are asking the sister to bring a proof where is yours that woman can not ask for divorce, if her husband takes second wife?!!. i do not know what why you picked the writter's name is it because her name is amani? i read that article of yours from beginnig to the end,however i did not see where it says woman can not get divorce, it talks about how men are required to be fair among his wives, who is arguing about that?. i'm not scholar in anyway, and my knowledge is limited however i know rights that are given to me, and i have yet to see or read any scholar who denied the rights of women for divorce, your posts say that women can only ask for divorce if they are physically, mentally or financially hurt, but it seems to me bro you are forgetting that women can ask for divorce if they are afriad that they will not be able to carry their duties as wife, in other words if they think they will not be fair towards their husband,or simply they do not like their husband anymore and the evidence is in the first khula in islam that was practiced by jamila bint abdullah bin ubay and thabit ibn qays ibn abdshams, " a woman came to the Prophet Muhammad seeking the dissolution of her marriage, she told the Prophet that she did not have any complaints against her husband's character or manners. Her only problem was that she honestly did not like him to the extent of not being able to live with him any longer. The Prophet asked her: "Would you give him his garden (the marriage gift he had given her) back?" she said: "Yes". The Prophet then instructed the man to take back his garden and accept the dissolution of the marriage (Bukhari). so if the husband takes second wife, the first wife is sure that she can not deal with it, and she will not be the wife she's used to be because she is emotionally hurt, do not you think she has more reason to ask for divorce than jamillah who has no reason to ask for divorce except she did not like him anymore .islam discourages divorce from both sides, except when it is neccessary, and it becomes a neccessary if one of the parties know that they will not be able to perform their duties.i'm not advocating for divorce, but these rights are there, to be used when neccessary, so before you deny their existance do little research, reading verses that allow men to marry more than wife will not talk about whether women can get divorce or not, because they are not dealing with it. also if you want to debate someone, then you should not call that person ignorant, . and if you want read this verse: “The divorce is twice, after that, either you retain her on reasonable terms or release her with kindness. And it is not lawful for you (men) to take back (from your wives) any of your Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) which you have given them, except when both parties fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allaah (i.e. to deal with each other on a fair basis). Then if you fear that they would not be able to keep the limits ordained by Allaah, then there is no sin on either of them if she gives back (the Mahr or a part of it) for her Khul' (divorce). These are the limits ordained by Allaah, so do not transgress them. And whoever transgresses the limits ordained by Allaah, then such are the wrongdoers. And if he has divorced her (the third time), then she is not lawful unto him thereafter until she has married another husband.” [surah Al-Baqarah: 229-230], Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OG_Girl Posted April 26, 2004 sis bulo , well said I have nothing to add what u said, well said. So X-Q its funny when people use that line....oh people married more then one wife cause of the war...bla bla bla...no men...bla bla bla...Actually they marry more then one wife cause Allah said so! simple as that. First of all, you should know that the general norm in Islam is monogamy and not polygamy. Also, the position of Islam towards polygamy is that it is neither mandatory nor encouraged, but merely permitted. More importantly, the permission to practice polygamy is associated with compassion towards widows and orphans, and is not associated with mere sexual satisfaction. Allah says: "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice". Surah 4 Verse 3. The verse which allows polygamy “was revealed after the battle of Uhud in which many Muslims were killed, leaving widows and orphans for whom due care was incumbent upon the Muslim survivors. From this verse a number of facts are evident: That polygamy is neither mandatory, nor encouraged, but merely permitted. That the permission to practice polygamy is not associated with mere satisfaction of passion. It is rather associated with compassion toward widows and orphans, a matter that is confirmed by the atmosphere in which the verse was revealed. That even in such a situation, the permission is far more restricted than the normal practice. This verse, when combined with another verse in the same chapter, shows some discouragement of such plural marriages. The other verse plainly states: “You are never able to be fair and just as between women even if it is your ardent desire…” This verse, when combined with another verse in the same chapter, shows some discouragement of such plural marriages. The other verse plainly states: “You are never able to be fair and just as between women even if it is your ardent desire…”(Qur’an 4: 129) The requirement of justice rules out the fantasy that man can “own as any as he pleases.” It also rules out the concept of “secondary wife,” for all wives have exactly the same status and are entitled to identical rights and claims over their husband. It also implies, according to the Islamic Law, that should the husband fail to provide enough support for any of his wives, she can go to the court and ask for a divorce. She can also ask for a divorce if there is evidence of mistreatment or injustice inflicted. So, wallalo, think about none moslims always look some thing to catch in our religion give them right realistic reasons before u just say " Allah said as simple as that"!!!! salam Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
x_quizit Posted April 26, 2004 Og Girl and Bulo, very well said and thank you for the evidence as well that some ppl were too hard headed to hear. Good to know objective ppl exist, so salafi, are bulo and Og girl making up that too? or is it ur male pride that leads u to not listen to a woman? In any case, all my arguments were presented, so take it or leave it, and continue to misuse the religion to suit ur needs, after all, u are following a long tradition of fakes. Ciao Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salafi_Online Posted April 26, 2004 Innalhamdulillah….Wa salamu alaykum…. May Allah soak you with his mercy Bulo…. No doubt…I’m aware of this hadith…however if u look at the explanation of this hadith….look at Riyad-us-Saleen…She asked for divorce cause she found him to be ugly…and she only realized he was ugly when she saw him with these two other men…He was short compared to them… not pleasing to the eyes. this is a valid reason! No doubt a woman can seek divorce for many reasons… However My beloved Sister the question I put forward is, 1) Can a women seek divorce simply cause her Husband wish to marry a second…Is this a valid reason? Knowing fully that it is Halaal for him to do so! I say no…its not a valid reason… And about being just with them…as you have already read, I have provided proves concerning this! No need to bring it up again. Sister May Allah bless you, do some research and tell me what you come up with….If you establish clear prove against me….Then By Allah I will submit…we hear…and we Obey… Inshallah I will take this to the people of knowledge to get further clarification, Indeed the Scholars are the inheritors of the Prophet! X-Q walaal eeka raliihow…. I seek your forgiveness first then I seek the forgiveness of Allah Jala Wala….The believers are but mirrors of one another! If I have said anything that harmed you…I take it back…and I ask that you forgive me…lest Allah should hold me accountable! OG_ Girl May Allah grant you the highest place in Jannah … Polygamy is encouraged! And permitted! About being Just to them…you seem to misunderstand what that implies…its not with the heart…you may Love one more then the other…like the messenger of Allah saas loved Aisha more then his other wives….refer to one of my earlier post concerning this….the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir! From the narration of Sa’eed ibn Jubayr who said: “Ibn Abbaas asked me: “Have you married yet?” I answered no, so he said: “Marry! For the best of this ummah are those with the most women.” Collected by Al-Bukhaaree in the book of Marriage, chapter: Plurality of Women [no. 5069]. THis is Prove that is it encouraged! Bulo...as for a women fearing that she will not be able to fullfil her husband's right...I say what is preventing her from doing so...Cause she will be emotionaly torn...why cause she has no faith in the ayats of Allah? or is it that she objects to his ayats? A3udubillah Allahu musta3an Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OG_Girl Posted April 27, 2004 Salafi , seems u just hear what u saying , read cerfully what I am saying: Polygamy was practiced, often without limitations nor regulations , in almost all cultures. It was sanctioned by various religions, and practiced, both before Islam, and for many centuries thereafter. The Mormons presently practice it - though secretly. Christian missionaries, in Africa and other areas, where polygamy is a social necessity, also allow it. BUT, Qur'an permits limited polygyny As I mentioned earlier, Qur'an is the only religious book on the face of the earth that says 'marry only one'. The context of this phrase is the following verse from Surah Nisa of the Glorious Qur'an: 'Marry woman of your choice in twos' threes' or fours' but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly, (with them), then only one' [Al-Qur'an 4:3] Before the Qur'an was revealed, there was no upper limit for polygyny and many men had scores of wives, some even hundreds. Islam put an upper limit of four wives. Islam gives a man permission to marry two, three or four women, only on the condition that he deals with them justly. In the same chapter i.e. Surah Nisa verse 129 says: 'It is very difficult to be just and fair between women'. [Al-Qur'an (4:129)] Therefore polygyny is not a rule but an exception. Many people are under the misconception that it is compulsory for a Muslim man to marry more than one wife. So, Islam is only religion but limited up to 4 wivies and put rules and regulation for Polygamy. PS: Prophet (peace be upon) did not Polygamy for 25 years before he Polygamy!. Islam neither invented polygamy (for it had been in existence for centuries before the inception of Islam), nor did it abolish it, for there existed no other solution of certain social problems. Islam only reformed this ancient custom. We all know that the Prophet(PBO), during the last ten years of his life, that is, during the period of his stay in Madina, married several women. This was a period of Islamic wars and at that time the number of women, who had nobody to look after them, was quite large. Most of the wives of the Prophet were widowed and aged. Several of them had children by their former husbands. Hope u read what I meant. salam Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
checkmate Posted April 27, 2004 posted by darmen Khayr is a sis with mustache, beard and balls too looooooool... darn .............. thanks brah asxantu Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
