Dream or Life, which is the true reality?

[Paragon]

I once had a conversation with a friend who is not afraid to extend the boundary and horizon of analytical thought. This friend and I had talked long hours about the essence of (real) life and dream.

 

The contention of our conversation, I confess, was an offshoot from common belief and conception of the roles of dream/s and reality. I started the conversation by indicating that life in essence is one figment of a continual dream and that dream is the true and permanent status of man kind.

 

The purpose of my saying so becomes clear if one considers carefully the already existing evidences. In all revelations to humanity, one trend of describing life has been common in all belief systems. The common thing in all monothystic religions is 'pre-destination' of events and actions in our lives.

 

First, there was predestination. Second, creation. Third, there would be death. Forth, there would be resurrection. Fifth, there would be permanence.

 

So in this order, although it could mean that we were not created first as flesh and bones, our souls existed before the creation of bodies and minds. But with creation came what is called life. If life wasn’t there then it would mean we would have existed as a soul only and in dream.

 

Dreams are not touchable, they exist in their own cosmic universe where souls escape to when they leave the bodies behind. So what I mean here is that dreams are the reality and life is just one figment of dreams among other things.

 

We live we die and when we die our souls sleep till resurrected by Allah on the judgment day. When the souls are resurrected, if lucky, they will then exist in the truest dream. A dream that would last forever, one which all your needs will be met through thoughts and wishes.

 

At this point my friend was becoming agitated by what I was saying and had question me doubtingly. The friend asked:

 

“but how do you explain the inconsistency inherit in dreams, and the inability for one to remember them unlike in life that has memories?”

 

To this question I answered: we cannot remember dreams that we have well for the basic fact that the now-ness of life is powerfully reflective in all capacities of our mind.

 

We truly belong in dreams but because life is a test to the future goodness for our dreams, our minds develop adoptation to life and we become very focused and determined to pass the test that is present. When that test (life) – is over, meaning when death marks the end of the test, we may shift back to sleep and dreams.

 

Life is simply a process by which God has created to test Adam and Eve’s worthiness of paradise, if we, being the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve’ pass the test before us now, then we will go back to our home, which is paradise. Adam and Eve’ were in paradise but were thrown out to life and earth to prove themselves.

 

To be continued Insha-Allaah

 

--- So my dear Nomads ... any thoughts on this issue?

[Positive]

"The more a man knows about himself in relation to every kind of experience, the greater his chance of suddenly, one fine morning, realizing who in fact he is -- or rather Who (capital W) in Fact (capital F) "he" (between quotation marks) Is (capital I)." -- Aldous Huxley

 

 

Thanks Jamaal for taking your time to call our attention to this subject. It helps us to reflect upon that which most of us, in the most of their time, DO NOT reflect upon, namely: who am I and what is my relation to all else ? We usually have time for trivialities but not for that which will emancipate us SPIRITUALLY! What a waste of time.

 

Now in my understanding Life the primordial impulse which God has created is the primary channel through which everything that exists, or seems to exist, receives the power that enables it to do a activity. Life as we can empirically observe have two characteristics: INTELLIGENCE AND THE POWER TO DO ACTIVITY. Soul, when it has the garment of human being and in all its eternal existence has also the same characteristics of Life. What I am trying to say is that Life is ALWAYS the subject, the doer of the activity, and rest is effect. In other words Life is channel that dreams come through and therefore dreams are effect.

 

The questions arise: what is dreaming ? Is our Life as we know it in here also a dream ?

 

Ìt is not my intention to answer these questions as I lack both time and space in here but I will duel little on the subject of LUCID DREAMING. I will present in here concise explanation about the subject:lucid dreaming. Enjoy it.

 

1. What is lucid dreaming?

A. The term "lucid dreaming" refers to dreaming while knowing that you are dreaming. The "lucid" part refers to the clarity of consciousness rather than the vividness of the dream. It generally happens when you realize during the course of a dream that you are dreaming, perhaps because something weird occurs. Most people who remember their dreams have experienced this at some time, often waking up immediately after the realization. However, it is possible to continue in the dream while remaining fully aware that you are dreaming.

 

2.An example of lucid dreaming.

 

One night I was dreaming of standing on a gentle hill, looking out over the tops of maples, alders, and other trees. The leaves of the maples were bright red and rustling in the wind. The grass at my feet was lush and vividly green. All the colors about me were more saturated than I have ever seen.

Perhaps the awareness that the colors were "brighter than they should be" shocked me into realizing that I was in a dream, and that what lay about me was not "real." I remember saying to myself, "If this is a dream, I should be able to fly into the air." I tested my hunch and was enormously pleased that I could effortlessly fly, and fly anywhere I wanted. I skimmed over the tops of the trees and sailed many miles over new territory. I flew upward, far above the landscape, and hovered in the air currents like an eagle.

When I awoke I felt as if the experience of flying had energized me. I felt a sense of well-being that seemed directly related to the experience of being lucid in the dream, of taking control of the flying.

 

3.If you are lucid, can you control the dream?

 

A. Usually lucidity brings with it some degree of control over the course of the dream. How much control is possible varies from dream to dream and from dreamer to dreamer. Practice can apparently contribute to the ability to exert control over dream events. At the least, lucid dreamers can choose how they wish to respond to the events of the dream. For example, you can decide to face up to a frightening dream figure, knowing it cannot harm you, rather than to try to avoid the danger as you naturally would if you did not know it was a dream. Even this amount of control can transform the dream experience from one in which you are the helpless victim of frequently terrifying, frustrating, or maddening experiences to one in which you can dismiss for a while the cares and concerns of waking life. On the other hand, some people are able to achieve a level of mastery in their lucid dreaming where they can create any world, live any fantasy, and experience anything they can imagine!

 

 

furether reading:

 

http://www.psywww.com/asc/dreamfaq/node29.html#SECTION00081000000000000000

 

http://www.psywww.com/asc/dreamfaq/node3.html#SECTION00030000000000000000

 

That is all for this time

 

positive

[Sophist]

WATCH BEAUTIFUL MIND!!!!

[Paragon]

Thanks Positive... very interesting article that was. I am glad someone is looking into this subject too. Insha-allaah I will write more later on.

 

Sophist, sxb thankx for the suggestion. I will get hold of Beautiful Mind... insha-allaah.

[Mutakalim]

To you Jamaal 11:

 

 

I have perused your post, and I will start by asking you a few questions and making some comments, before going a little deeper in the subject with you. My comments will follow the order in which you wrote your thoughts, to make it easier for all to follow.

 

You said:

 

"life in essence is one figment of a continual dream and that dream is the true and permanent status of man kind "

 

to this i say:

1.you must provide proofs for this (and i have read both of your posts completely), or at least use a clear syllogism where you state your premises clearly

2.you must define dream

3.you say in this sentence that the, on the one hand, life is a dream, on the other that it is true and permanent. this requires clarification; perhaps your definition would help.

 

You said

"all monothystic religions is 'pre-destination' of events and actions in our lives "

 

This thread is about the reality of life, and so I do not see it here appropriate to get into this issue. Never the less, I must at least say that it is clear that predestination cannot be accepted if one believes in God's justice and in God's wisdom.

 

At this point, since I do see a line of thought in what you say, but I do not see a system of thought (ontologically and epistemologically speaking at least) I would ask you to read or to use Leibniz' works in your arguments, because they are clear, and represent a system which we can understand as a whole, and so, it would become clear where everything fits in the system.

 

You said

"our souls existed before the creation of bodies and minds. But with creation came what is called life. If life wasn’t there then it would mean we would have existed as a soul only and in dream"

 

The existence of the soul is not tantamount to existence in dream only (unless you prove it, or so define it). It is simply another dimension; an immaterial one. We may not say that because it is not material then it must be not real.

 

You said

"a cosmic universe"

 

What is a cosmic universe?

 

You said

"Dreams are not touchable, they exist in their own cosmic universe where souls escape to when they leave the bodies behind. So what I mean here is that dreams are the reality and life is just one figment of dreams among other things."

 

A lot of points are made here. Let me number them and simplify them, so that the inconsistency becomes manifest.

1.dreams are not touchable

2.souls exist in their own realm

these points lead to

3.dreams are the reality

4.life is one figment of dreams

 

So, from this, life is one figment of reality? and dreams are real, so life is real, by virtue of being a dream. surely you see an inconsistency in this

 

I will employ the principle of charity. Perhaps are you saying that the realm of the soul is more real, because it is not material. but then

1.this would not mean that the material world does not exist

2.you would have to prove that point, namely that the realm of the soul is superior, and explaining why

3.you would have to explain your alternative. is it idealism (as it seems when one first reads your posts), or something else?

 

You said

"We live we die and when we die our souls sleep till resurrected by Allah on the judgment day. When the souls are resurrected, if lucky, they will then exist in the truest dream. A dream that would last forever, one which all your needs will be met through thoughts and wishes. "

 

I will not comment on the eschatological statements you make here, we are not at this point yet. But I must ask: if this life is more a dream, and the next is similar in quality and different in quantity (more "true"), how would you define reality? what, or how, would reality have to be in order to be "reality"? or are you simlply replacing "reality" by "dream"? this would indeed make you a sophist, for I would fail to see the purpose of this thread. Otherwise, what is the difference between your "dream" and my "reality"? Are the laws, the principles, the results... in any way different for me and you, if, for argument's sake, i was a realist and you were a an idealist)?

 

You said

"Life is simply a process by which God has created to test Adam and Eve’s worthiness of paradise, if we, being the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve’ pass the test before us now, then we will go back to our home, which is paradise. Adam and Eve’ were in paradise but were thrown out to life and earth to prove themselves. "

 

Once again, you have stepped outside the line of philosophy, and into theology and revealed religion. I completely disagree with you here. Life was not created to test adam and eve, but us all. Adam, peace be upon him, was not created for paradise, but for earth, as the quranic verses clearly state. I do not think that you accept the theory of the Original sin, but you certainly seem to be making a point for it. If it is indeed your belief, then say so, and we can discuss it, perhaps in a separate thread.

The paradise of adam and eve is not the paradise promised to the righteous and virtuous among us after death. The laws governing that paradise are indeed far from those of the one where adam started out. When we say that we will go to heaven, or paradise, it is not the same as the one where adam dwelled a little moment.

 

With Salaams

PK

 

P.S. By the way, have you studied philosophy? After 11 years of reading, I must reluctantly say it is becoming borish.

[Paragon]

Mutakalam lol....what a line of questioning that was! phew! But you didn't ask only questions have you? I appreciate your trying to cleverly add comments to questions.

 

Anyways, most prolly my reply and as you called it 'clarifications' will come next but let me question you on the questions you asked me.

 

I see you found it difficult to comprehend what I was talking about. You said you've been reading philosophy for 11 years, mutakalam, but i must clarify to you that the topic and the thoughts content in it are but philosophical. Just pure thought expressed in the most simplest and understandable fashion is what the topic is. Sorry to disappoint your assumptions sxb.

 

"I will employ the principle of charity." Lol I think I get the drift mutakalam. I am sure your principle of charity would been appreciated if we were in the waters of philosophy. So I will not mind what your intention was .

 

since I do see a line of thought in what you say, but I do not see a system of thought

(ontologically and epistemologically speaking

at least) I would ask you to read or to use Leibniz' works in your arguments, because they are clear, and represent a system which we can understand as a whole, and so, it would become clear where everything fits in the system.

Yes, Mutakalam. You are right, you do see a line of thought; but do I sense your use of the terms 'otology and epistemology' as if they were interchangable? Let me not accuse you of having difficulty in not knowing that espistemology comes after ontlogy. Ontology, as i know, refers to the subject of existence, and espistemology asks - if a subject exists - then what is next? what do we know about the ontologically specified subject? Can we sense it, feel it? see it? touch it? Thats the order in which the terms compliment each other. Ask me, 'ontologically, do dreams exist? After I have proved that then again ask me, espitemologically, what do we know about them? Do dreams exist? No, not in ways provable. So here there is no need for epistemology.

 

So mutakalam you see... my thoughts were purely speculative, but it seems you have had slight misunderstanding. First, no proof can be obtained for dreams, rather, the existence of dreams are like myths and legends. We cannot prove them so we accept them at face value.

 

You said : "you have stepped outside the line of philosophy, and into theology and revealed religion"

 

No no I haven't stepped out of philosophy and neither did I to theology. I have used all available evidence to conceptialise what I was putting across. By the way must one always be considering that his/her's movement of thought is limited by what is in books and subjects of centuries long gone? Do your mind a justice and exercise alittle mobility of the mind please.

 

 

"Never the less, I must at least say that it is clear that predestination cannot be accepted if one believes in God's justice and in God's wisdom."

 

really?

 

PS: About Adam and Eve..... I think we can talk about that later

[postman]

Jamaal,

 

Are you familiar with the work of Harun Yahya, well if you are not it might be of some interest to you. Read his book titled ‘Matter: the other name for illusion'. I think all of his books are available on his website, for free, at www.harunyahya.com. He argues that there is no need for a real world to exist, everything we feel are nothing more than stimulations, stimulation produced by God and felt by the soul. And that everything belongs to God; hence, this is a test for the real life to come. And that death is not the end; it is the awakening of the soul.

 

Well I wont go into it further, but I recommend that you read it. It kept me awake for nights first time I read it.

 

Peace

[Khayr]

Bismillah

 

This is a Deep topic that requires

time inshallah to understand things

and HIKHMA to explain them.

 

-Dreams pertain to the realm of “imagination”

 

Barzakh (Intermediary world btwn this World and the Hereafter/Akhira)

 

Just as the soul acts as the means by which the spirit maintains its connection with the body, so the world of imagination acts as an intermediary between the world of angelic and disembodied spirits and the physical world. This intermediate, imaginal world is in turn divided into two sorts, one of which is “contiguous” (muttasil) to our psyches, and the other “discontiguous” (munfasil)

Now, Mutakalim posed these 4 things from Jamaal:

1.dreams are not touchable

2.souls exist in their own realm

these points lead to

3.dreams are the reality

4.life is one figment of dreams

 

1. dreams are not touchable

-Inshallah, the better question to ask then is

If we can't Touch,See, Hear, Taste,Speak dreams

then are they REAL? How can they be proven?

Is the Imagination then to be ALL IGNORED?

B/c of you say that Dreams are not touchable, then you are Negating IMAGINATION for without that

IMAGINATION there would be NO FAITH, NO TRUST,

NO INTELLIGENCE at ALL-RIGHT?

 

2. souls exist in their own realm

these points lead to

-If you say this, then you are saying that we FORMLESS. Well, then why the need to follow

a FORM by ALLAH in his REVELATIONS if we are formless? If the SOUL is unto itself and seperate

from the rest of CREATION?

 

3.dreams are the reality

-IF Dreams are part and necassary of IMAGINATION

and are nothing but IMAGINATION, then

WHAT IS REAL?

ALLAH?CREATION?YOU?I?

 

4.life is one figment of dreams

-There is a hadith that the rasul (salallahu caliyhe wasilm) says that in life you are ASLEEP,

soon as you DIE, you are AWAKE.

 

I must at least say that it is clear that predestination cannot be accepted if one believes in God's justice and in God's wisdom

SUBHANALLAH WALAAL, believingin QADR-The GOOD and BAD, is the 6th PILLAR of IMAN and to disbelieve in it is not ACCEPTABLE for a MUSLIM.

 

In anycase its late and inshallah I'll stop at this.

But ask yourself this before you respond

WHAT'S THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD???

-Is it b/c of a CURIOSITY?

If it is due to Curiosity, then CEASE now

b/c u can get into some deep debates into anything that will lead you and others into

CONFUSION.

-Is it b/c of a need to KNOW and you are looking

to UNDERSTAND ALLAH and his AYATS?

 

My Humble Opinion inshallah for you brothers

-Establish the SALAT and the wajibats

-If you want to talk to your RABB and understand things, read the QURAN and make it a PART OF YOUR LIFE. Allah will show his signs when you talk to HIM and make DHIKR. After all the best form of DHIKR is reading the QURAN.

-Do the various SUNNA's inshallah

-Pray the sunnas and nawafils

-Always have wudu

-Fast on the sunna days like mondays,thursdays,

muhram etc.

 

If you are doing all these things, then inshallah

Allah will show you his AYATS and give you the answers that you desire when the TIME IS RIGHT

and you will inshallah UNDERSTAND.

Understanding is a VIRTUE and can't be LEARNED.

After all ALLAH guides (Al-Haadi),no professor or any ALIM can guide you or give you UNDERSTANDING.

 

Fi Amanillah

[Paragon]

Nomads, I know this thread is generating some deep discusion and is potential to leading a weak mind to oblivion. However, I don't intent to go into certain subjects which philosophers or would-be philosophers indulge in. The topic is purely concerned with the debate of 'are we really living, or can we tell whether we aren't dreaming?

 

Note: I did not CLAIM 'the soul exists in its own realm'...only say that about the dreams. Saying dreams exist in their cosmic universe. I can be held liable to saying that and I wish to explain and elaborate on many of the things I mentioned at the start of the topic. Insha-allaah i will write a long post regarding that matter. I will do so the minute time permits me.

 

By the way below is an article about 'Dreams Vs Reality'. Hope you understand it.

------

 

Reality vs. Dreams

 

By: etymxris

 

Date: 2002-11-28 22:51:02

 

Summary: We are permanently disconnected from reality. All that we know of reality is reported to us through our senses. How do we know these senses are telling us the truth? Perhaps we are being deceived. What we think is reality is actually something completely different.

Descartes considered this problem many centuries ago, and I reconsider it now. One thing that puzzled philosophers of Descartes' time was this: How can we know we are not dreaming? Dreams can be quite vivid. While we have them, we often have no idea that we are just in a dream. It is only after we wake up that we find this out.

 

The answer is: We know what dreams are because we wake up from them. Perhaps reality is just a dream that we will one day wake up from. Until then, though, we should regard it as reality.

 

The answer to the question of dreams solves the original problem. That is, how can we trust our senses? The answer is, how can we not? They are all we have to work with. Until we find our senses lying to us, we should not assume that they are.

 

Body: We Wake Up From Dreams

But we can never escape reality. To most laypersons, it is common sense that dreams and reality are two different things. But to many philosophers, it isn't obvious at all. Such a philosopher will point out the vividness of dreams, and how, when we are dreaming, we often do not know it is a dream. What we call “reality” may very well be just another dream. “Reality” may just be fictitious creation in our minds. Even if it is not, there is no way that we could know. We are forever confined to the possibility that there is no reality as we sense it.

 

But suppose we could always distinguish between dreams and awakeness. Let's say that there was some special property of dreams, such as the presense of an orange tint in our vision, or a dull ringing in our hearing, that always allowed us to demarcate between dreams and reality. Even if we found such a special property, we could not know that it really told us the difference between dreams and reality. To know that the special property really worked, we would have to already know what is a dream, and what is an experience of reality. But this special property was supposed to resolve this issue. So we are left with a viscious circle, where for us to determine what is real, we must already know what is real. We must again resign ourselves to the possibility that we will never know the difference between dreams and reality.

 

But there is a difference between dreams and reality. We would not have both “dreams” and “reality” if we did not already have a way to distinguish between them. So what is the special property of dreams that distinguishes them from reality? The property is not of the dream itself, but what happens after the dream. We wake up from dreams. We never wake up from reality. A dream is only a dream in retrospect, it is never a dream at the time it is dreamed.

 

Could this be a dream that we will never wake up from? No! Could this be a dream that we someday wake up from? Maybe. If we “wake up” from what we consider reality, then we will discover a new reality, and recognize our experiences now to have only been a dream. But at this point in time, these experiences are not a dream.

 

Our future is always uncertain, and our knowledge will perhaps be forever incomplete. It may turn out that what we thought we knew for sure was anything but. However, the possibility of acquiring new knowledge should not discourage us from trusting our current knowledge. What we know here and now may be incomplete, but it is certainly better than nothing.

 

Those that say our current knowledge cannot be trusted have a point. Knowledge cannot be fully trusted. But neither can it be fully dismissed. Those that say reality is nothing but a dream dismiss all knowledge, and so do us all a disservice.

 

Knowledge can never be fully right, but it cannot be fully wrong, either. There is some truth to the falsehood that the Earth is flat. The Earth is flat over wide expanses, but not over all expanses. Eventually, it wraps around on itself. But this does not negate the observations of early peoples that the Earth is flat. These people were not incorrect in their observation, but their extrapolation.

 

All knowledge is this way. Even if a person is trying to deceive you, there is some knowledge to be found. That the person said this or that is a knowledge, even if what the person says is a falsehood. We can even imagine the most extreme scenario, that of a brain in a vat. Every neuron in this brain that would have connected to the spine or some point of the body is instead attached to an electrode that interfaces with a computer. This brain in the vat thinks it is a human that walks about, goes to a steady job, and returns home to a loving wife. But it's entire experience in life is just simulated on a computer.

 

Perhaps you are this brain in a vat. You think you are reading a text written by me, but I am nothing but a simulation, I don't really exist.

 

But this is a mistake. I do exist, even if I only exist as a “simulation” on a computer. So there are two possible realities. The first is where I exist as a real person, the other is where my existence is nothing but a simulation in a computer. But we can never distinguish between these two possibilities. So why should we? We may as well call these the same reality.

 

I will in fact call these the same reality. My definition of reality lumps together any two possible “realities” that cannot possibly be distinguished from one another.

 

So there will always be one existing reality, and many possible future realities. If you were a brain in a vat, you could be taken out, put into a human body, and told, “See, you were just a brain in a vat all that time. You really are a reptile like creature with green, scaly skin. Isn't that neat?” If this came to be, then you would recognize your current existence as having been due to computer simulation, but you would only realize this in the future. Now, while you are still in the vat, existence in the vat is equivalent to existence as a normal human. It is only in the future that you may be able to recognize which of these possible current realities was actual.

 

Right now, all of these possibilites are actual. In fact, they correspond uniquely to what you have experienced in life and what you have come to think about what is real. Possibilites diverge all the time. We don't have to come up with a bizarre example like the brain in a vat to demonstrate this.

 

Assume you are in an apartment, and you hear a couple yelling next door. Maybe they are having a heated argument. Maybe they are being facetious, and only playing with each other. Maybe there is no one there, and what you hear is only a TV. You don't know which of these possibilities is true. So, at this point in time, they are all “actual”.

 

You might be curious and listen a little longer. At this point you might hear a commercial at the same volume as the argument, and figure out that the yelling originated from the TV. At this point, only one of the above possibilities is now actual. But this does not mean that the other possibilities were false, as possibilities, before you acquired this new knowledge.

 

All knowledge is of possibilities. That is why it is inherently incomplete. We can never whittle down the multitude of possibilities to just one, since we cannot experience everything at once. Where we go wrong is in denying the possibilities that are, and in allowing possibilities that are not. Those who believed the Earth to be flat should have said, “Well, the land is flat here, but who knows what happens over the horizon?” If their statements would have been qualified like this, they would not have been false.

 

But sometimes it is difficult to list all the possibilities, and so we go with the simplest until further evidence dictates otherwise. It would be cumbersome and somewhat silly to say, “I'm having a meeting with Bob, or the simulation I think is Bob because I'm really a brain in a vat, if I'm a brain in a vat.”

 

There are so many possibilities at any one time, in fact, that we could never speak of them all. But never speaking of them does not discredit them as possibilities. It is fine to say, here and now, “Yes, I could be a brain in a vat. But until I see otherwise, I will assume I am not.” We make such assumptions as a matter of pragmatics, and go about our lives.

 

There has been much effort put into deciding which possibility, given our current history of experiences and knowledge, is most likely to be proven out. There has also been much effort put into deciding which assumptions turn out to be the most pragmatic for each person. But these are different problems for another day.

 

It is more important to realize that we are never stuck in a dream. If we are dreaming now and wake up, then we will have found escape. And if we are dreaming now and forever, there is no reason to care whether it was a dream at all. No matter what the case, our knowledge is not to be discarded in its entirety. We can always find ourselves to be wrong, but we can never be totally wrong. We will always have to revise and update our knowledge, but we never have to disavow all knowledge. We are not a brain in a vat, but even if we are, we do not care.

 

Source: Society of Babel

 

PS: Some of you might object to the article not because of its content but because of the belief of the author.

[Salafi_Online]

Innahamdulillah...Wa salamu alaykum....

 

Hey Mutaakalim would you concur this is 'Ilmul Kaalim'?

 

So in this order, although it could mean that we were not created first as flesh and bones, our souls existed before the creation of bodies and minds.

How do u know this? As far as i know Adam Body was fashioned and created before his soul was...

So mutakalam you see... my thoughts were purely speculative

My thoughts exactly!

 

First, no proof can be obtained for dreams, rather, the existence of dreams are like myths and legends

Did u ever read the Verse...that says,"And you have been only given limited knowledge."

 

I have used all available evidence to conceptialise what I was putting across.

What evidence u just said above that u can not really prove it...and that ur simplity guessing.

 

 

what are Dreams...these are dreamss...

Hadith - Sahih Bukhari 9:144, Narrated Abu Huraira

Allah's Apostle said, "When the Day of Resurrection approaches, the dreams of a believer will hardly fail to come true, and a dream of a believer is one of forty-six parts of prophetism, and whatever belongs to prothetism can never be false." Muhammad bin Sirin said, "But I say this." He said, "It used to be said, 'There are three types of dreams: The reflection of one's thoughts and experiences one has during wakefulness, what is suggested by Satan to frighten the dreamer, or glad tidings from Allah. So, if someone has a dream which he dislikes, he should not tell it to others, but get up and offer a prayer." He added, "He (Abu Huraira) hated to see a Ghul (i.e., iron collar around his neck in a dream) and people liked to see fetters (on their feet in a dream). The fetters on the feet symbolizes one's constant and firm adherence to religion." And Abu 'Abdullah said, "Ghuls (iron collars) are used only for necks."

 

U see J11 u have good dreams or bad dreams...one is from Allah to conver a glad tiding...the other from Shaytain....thats all

 

Subhanallah...walal u need to stop guessing. Allah said indeed guessing is not a substitute for the truth!

 

Hadith - Muslim 5640, Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah, r.a.

Allah's Messenger said: There came to him (the Prophet) a desert Arab and said: I saw in a dream that I had been beheaded and I had been following it (the severed head). Allah's Apostle reprimanded him saying: Do not inform about the vain sporting of devil with you during the night.

 

saying, "A good dream is from Allah, so if anyone of you saw a dream which he liked, he should not tell it to anybody except to the one whom he loves, and if he saw a dream which he disliked, then he should seek refuge with Allah from its evil and from the evil of Satan, and spit three times (on his left) and should not tell it to anybody, for it will not harm him."

 

 

That is what dreams are...And we were created...To worship Allah alone...U will not be helped accountable for what happends in your dream...But in Life u are accountable for everything you do....thats is the difference....

[Salafi_Online]

'are we really living, or can we tell whether we aren't dreaming?

The fact that we are held accountable for our actions and deeds prove that we are living...the fact that when we die...we indure the punishment of the grave shows that we are living...what proves does anyone have that we are simply dreaming..From quran and Sunnah?.none...just speculating rethoric...which is an innovation...and all Innovation is in the fire!

[Salafi_Online]

Innalhamdullah..Wa salamu alaykum wa rahmatullah

 

Hey J11 i have a question for u...Did the Messenger of Allah(saas) speak of this?...did his companions speak of this?...did those who followed them speak of this?....Did the Scholars of Islam speak of this?

 

This is similar to the man who said that the Quran was created!

 

Imam baarbaharee(d.375) said the following...

 

May Allaah have mercy upon you! Know that the Sunnah is not a matter for analogies or reasoning with examples, and desires are not to be followed in it. Rather, it is just a case of affirming the narrations from Allaah's Messenger (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam), without asking how, explaining or saying: 'Why?' or 'How?'

 

 

May Allah have mercy upon you! Know that heresy, disbelief, doubts, innovations, misguidance and confusion about the religion have never occurred except through theological rhetoric (Kalaam) and because of the people of theological rhetoric, argumentation, debating and disputation. How can a man plunge into argumentation, disputation and debating seeing that Allah, the Most High, said:

 

None dispute regarding the Ayaat (revelations, signs, proofs) of Allah except those who disbelieve [1].

 

You should submit to and be pleased with the narrations and the people of narrations, withhold and remain silent.

 

 

Kitaab Sharh us-Sunnah

by Al-Barbahaaree

[Salafi_Online]

Innalhamdulillah...Wa salamu alaykum

 

The topic is purely concerned with the debate of 'are we really living, or can we tell whether we aren't dreaming?

One last note on this Post!

 

This is ajeeb to say the least but what this does is to confuse the reader and make them use their intellect before they use the Qur’aan and Sunnah, hence man’s intellect is made to be superior then the sources of Revelation. Clearly this manner of argument has not been seen with regards to the salaf(companions..tabein..etc), they never and still do not use man’s flawed intellect and reasoning over the Haqq of the Qur’aan and authentic ahaadeeth

 

Source: Refutation of YahyaHarun...Salafitalk.net

[Mutakalim]

A Methodological Introduction

 

We must keep in mind that, in the context of religion, there are two kinds of proofs that can be advanced (in this case, for our beliefs), proofs that i will call "narrational" and "rational", or naqlee and 'aqlee. Narrational proofs are simply things we consider as true on the basis that we have a confirmed authentic narration from a divine authority in religion telling us it is so. This does not mean that rules of logic or principles of philosophy are not used here, but only that religious texts will be present as premises, as arguments. Examples of narrational demonstrations and proofs are the details of accomplishing the pilgrimage, or the way prayer should be done, with how many rak'at, or some particular details of things awaiting us after death... Rational proofs, on the other hand, are those that can be called philosophical demonstrations. They do not use religious texts as premises for their conclusion. This does not mean that the truths lying in the religious texts are not the aim, but they are not mentioned, otherwise it would not be a philosophical, or purely rational, demonstration. Examples of these can be the classic demonstrations of God's existence (the First mover, the law of causality, contingency of the world, teleological demonstrations, ontological demonstrations..). Of course, we must know what fields demand narrational demonstrations, and which need a rational one. We must also know, minimally at least, if there are any common premises that we and the other party both agree on, so as not to waste too much time on those points, and know how to develop your arguments, and with which premises (in other words, understand the system used by the other as his intellectual/religious reference and source).

 

Jamaal 11:- Brother I am still awaiting your response to my post. Instead, you have chosen to post an equally incoherent article bloated with flacious arguments, logical inconsistincies and the like. I dare not accuse you of red herring or ad hominimems; so I will await your response. Also, this whole thread is nothing save philosophical enquiry. Perhaps a rudimentary understanding of philosophy would clear this misunderstanding. To answer your question, I did not use the terms ontology and epistimology interchangeably, to do so would cause you great confusion, and that I do not intend. By the way, do you suppose that your meditations are in accordance with Islamic Doctrines ('aqaid)?

 

Khayr:- Are you familiar with such concepts as Predestination and Qadr? Do not mistake them for what they are not; these words are not synonyms. Some Islamic theologians hold that predestination (especially, the brand the author of this thread stipulated) is contrary to Divine Justice or Al-'adl al-ilaahi. I will not bore you the various arguments advanced by the mu'tazila and asha'iris.

 

Salafi Online:- 'Ilm al-kalam is one of the Islamic sciences. It discusses the fundamental Islamic beliefs and doctrines which are necessary for a Muslim to believe in. It explains them, argues about them, and defends them. This is a pseudo-'ilm al kalam topic...

 

That is all for now Brothers and Sisters or shall I say Adeerayaal.

[postman]

Salafi_Online,

 

I am honestly not the person to take this sort of discussion very seriously for two reasons: first, I think this is one of those things you can neither prove nor refute, secondly, even if it could be proofed indisputably, like you said we are still at the end of the day accountable and nothing changes. However, I think the discussion is valuable because it encourages further contemplation and this can benefit a person in many ways. It can make him more aware, value material life little less and see the true purpose in life and so on. So for this reasons if you want to read further about this sort of issue from what you can call a Islamic perspective read the work of Harun Yahya.

 

Here is a precept from the book:

 

"The world of senses" that we experience in dreams

 

A person can experience all senses vividly without the presence of the outside world. The most obvious example of this is dreams. A person lies on his bed with closed eyes while dreaming. However, in spite of this, that person senses many things which he or she experiences in real life, and experiences them so realistically that the dreams are indistinguishable from the real life experience. Everyone who reads this book will often bear witness to this truth in their own dreams. For example, a person lying down alone on a bed in a calm and quiet atmosphere at night might, in his dream, see himself in danger in a very crowded place. He could experience the event as if it were real, fleeing from danger in desperation and hiding behind a wall. Moreover, the images in his dreams are so realistic that he feels fear and panic as if he really was in danger. He has his heart in his mouth with every noise, is shaken with fear, his heart beats fast, he sweats and demonstrates the other physical affects that the human body undergoes in a dangerous situation. However, there is no external equivalent of the events in his dream. They exist only in his mind. A person who falls from a high place in his dream feels it with all his body, even though he is lying in bed without moving. Alternatively, one might see oneself slipping into a puddle, getting soaked and feeling cold because of a cold wind. However, in such a case, there is neither a puddle, nor is there wind. Furthermore, despite sleeping in a very hot room, one experiences the wetness and the cold, as if one were awake.

 

Someone who believes he is dealing with the original of the material world in his dream can be very sure of himself. He can put his hand on his friend's shoulder when the friend tells him that "matter is an image; it isn't possible to deal with the original of the world", and then ask "Am I an image now? Don't you feel my hand on your shoulder? If so, how can you be an image? What makes you think in this way? Let's take a trip up the Bosphorus; we can have a chat about it and you'll explain to me why you believe this." The dream that he sees in his deep sleep is so clear that he turns on the engine with pleasure and accelerates slowly, almost jumping the car by pressing the pedal suddenly. While going on the road, trees and road lines seem solid because of the speed. In addition, he breathes clean Bosphorus air. But suppose he is woken up by his ringing alarm clock just when he's getting ready to tell his friend that what he's living at that moment isn't a dream. Wouldn't he object in the same manner regardless of whether he was asleep or awake?

 

When people wake up they understand that what they've seen until that moment is a dream. But for some reason they are not suspicious that the life that starts with a "waking" image (what they call "real life") can also be a dream. However, the way we perceive images in "real life" is exactly the same as the way we perceive our dreams. We see both of them in the mind. We cannot understand they are images until we are woken up. Only then do we say "what I have just seen was a dream". So, how can we prove that what we see at any given moment is not a dream? We could be assuming that the moment in which we are living is real just because we haven't yet woken up.It is possible that we will discover this fact when we are woken up from this "waking dream" which takes longer than dreams we see everyday. We do not have any evidence that proves otherwise.

 

Many Islamic scholars have also proclaimed that the life around us is only a dream, and that only when we are awakened from that dream with "a big awakening", will people be able to understand that they live in a dreamlike world. A great Islamic scholar, Muhyiddin Ibn al-'Arabi, referred to as Sheikh Akbar (The greatest Sheikh) due to his superior knowledge, likens the world to our dreams by quoting a saying of the Prophet Muhammad: The Prophet Muhammad said that "people are asleep and wake up when they die." This is to say that the objects seen in the world when alive are similar to those seen when asleep while dreaming, meaning that they exist in the imagination.16

 

In a verse of Koran, people are told to say on doomsday when they are resurrected from the dead:

 

They will say, "Alas for us! Who has raised us from our sleeping-place? This is what the All-Merciful promised us. The Messengers were telling the truth." (The Koran, 36:52)

 

As the verse demonstrates, people wake up on doomsday as if waking from a dream. Like someone woken from the middle of a dream in deep sleep, such people will similarly ask who has woken them up. As the verse points out, the world around us is like a dream and everybody will be woken up from this dream, and will begin to see images of the afterlife, which is the real life.

-----------

 

peace