I HAVE A DREAM...

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Faarax-Brown:

Point dude,i think the answer lies right there in your comparison example. If someone from the outside seems to do fine & those born in the'Miserable zone' seem to do fairly bad,then it is an inside issue. I mean how else would you explain this example?

 

From your comparison,you would(Hopefully) agree with me that it has a lot(Or to some extent) to do with the PAST opressive,bigoted and racist history of the USA government and dixie state governments?

 

If you dont think otherwise,then what do you think is the cause of your asian-African-American example?

 

I hope you are not insunating that black folks are lazy and all those white man stereotypes

No - FB - I think it has a little to do with past repression. It has mostly do with will and family structure according to me - Dr ThePoint - your online psychologist

 

Why did Oprah Winfrey who came from a broken home, was sexually abused, came from a poor place, rise to where she was at? Why does that happen? Because she had the will to try and succeed and open her horizons.

 

If you come from a broken home where you never knew your father, your mother is away 24hrs a day working, and you have no other support system - it is not shocking that you would turn to a gang or the local criminal network or hope to be a big gangsta rapper etc. But whose fault is it that there are so many broken black families - certainly not the white man. It is they, Black ppl, who have done that themselves.

 

The will to succeed and do SOMETHING as opposed to falling in the same old trap and the serious family breakdown explain to me the situation for most blacks today.

[Chocolate and Honey]

From your comparison,you would(Hopefully) agree with me that it has a lot(Or to some extent) to do with the PAST opressive,bigoted and racist history of the USA government and dixie state governments?

Bro exactly my point and like I said it would be very diffucult to understand for someone who doesnt comprehend the depth of such affect.

Why did Oprah Winfrey who came from a broken home, was sexually abused, came from a poor place, rise to where she was at? Why does that happen? Because she had the will to try and succeed and open her horizons.

Point, are you for real? is your thinking that simple? you said I have a victim mentality,then I think you would agree that you have little contact with the reality of Black america. I dont have victim mentality, you have colonizer metality: Blame the victim for their their misery cuz surely if they were smart enough they would be like you wouldnt they?

Ina Abti the truth is, economically and education wise, the likes of Opra are not role models. Yes, I'm so damn proud of her acheivements and acknowledge her as a pillar of the black community but it would be a disaster to measure success of the black community by how much money you have in your account, wouldnt it? This is the image the "whites" would like you to have and this is precisely why black people are failing to attain any goals. Have you ever wondered why blacks crowd the so-called "entertainment bussiness"? do you know the #1dream of black kids today, Yes it is to entertain and make tons of money. where does that leave us, a community just recovering from major dark period?

Just who do you think will stay on top and maintain the supreme power of making the choices for the rest of the country, if your quick you guessed it right, yes the "whites". Whose children advance to Lawyers, doctors, senators, educators, governers and even presidents?

Ina abti, to come back to your urgument of the difference between lazy blacks and hard work indians or somalians for that matter( And I warned you not to go there because I knew you would :rolleyes: ) is you will never understand what it is like to be the descedents of black slaves.

The indian or the somalian might have experienced some harsh circumstances, might be forced to exile, and mightnot know the English language or even the laws But for your urgument's sake, lets look at your reasoning. for sure their experiences have nothing on what blacks went through and are still going through. You are speaking like you beleive racism and prejudice is over. and blacks only have to worry about success and grabbing the riches now. and for this urgument only, I reject all your claims because obviously you have little knowledge about the circumstances of today's America.

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Get Up!Up Even the best fall down sometimes

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by chocolate & honey:

Point, are you for real? is your thinking that simple? you said I have a victim mentality,then I think you would agree that you have little contact with the reality of Black america. I dont have victim mentality, you have colonizer metality:

Blame the victim for their their misery cuz surely if they were smart enough they would be like you wouldnt they?

It seems that you subscribe to the theory of people having no control over their lives - that they are acted upon by others like some passive beast of burden. Am I missing something or is America still practicing slavery and Jim Crow etc? No it is not. And it is not reasonable to throw up past discrimination and abuse as reason you can't do anything. By that token - any community or group that were repressed for centuries can then claim - 'oh, my woeful present state is due to that earlier repression and there is nothing I can do to change my condition'. The other thing - I stated my reasons for their condition as a lack of will and family breakdown - where do you come up with the 'smart enough' phrase?

 

Ina Abti the truth is, economically and education wise, the likes of Opra are not role models. Yes, I'm so damn proud of her acheivements and acknowledge her as a pillar of the black community but it would be a disaster to measure success of the black community by how much money you have in your account, wouldnt it? This is the image the "whites" would like you to have and this is precisely why black people are failing to attain any goals. Have you ever wondered why blacks crowd the so-called "entertainment bussiness"? do you know the #1dream of black kids today, Yes it is to entertain and make tons of money. where does that leave us, a community just recovering from major dark period?

Why would it be disaster to measure your success by money? If blacks are aspiring to the same level as whites - a reasonable measure is money. That is how we measure quality of life around the world - it's called economics. Yeah, black ppl's role models are messed up - but, again, I ask you - is THAT the fault of the white man? Whose fault is it that they have unsavoury role models??

 

And the point of the whole Oprah example is to ask you - Why did she succeed? Can't other blacks replicate that? What makes her different - because her background is not different from that of many blacks?

 

Just who do you think will stay on top and maintain the supreme power of making the choices for the rest of the country, if your quick you guessed it right, yes the "whites".

Whose children advance to Lawyers, doctors, senators, educators, governers and even presidents?

Are blacks barred from becoming lawyers, doctors, senators, educators etc.? Why are some blacks able to acheive all those things and others not? From your perpesctive - it's the WHITE MAN! That is really simplistic.

 

Ina abti, to come back to your urgument of the difference between lazy blacks and hard work indians or somalians for that matter( And I warned you not to go there because I knew you would :rolleyes: ) is you will never understand what it is like to be the descedents of black slaves.

This is a poor argument - it doesn't explain anything but it makes the one stating this argument look smug and simplistic. Similar to your argument - I am not a woman - thus I can't make reasonable and sensible statements about women's issues. Also, I am not living in Communist China - thus I can make no reasonable statements about life there. Is the above paragraph really what you mean or was there some typing mistake?

 

The indian or the somalian might have experienced some harsh circumstances, might be forced to exile, and mightnot know the English language or even the laws But for your urgument's sake, lets look at your reasoning. for sure

their experiences have nothing on what blacks went through and are still going through. You are speaking like you beleive racism and prejudice is over. and blacks only have to worry about success and grabbing the riches now. and for this urgument only, I reject all your claims because obviously you have little knowledge about the circumstances of today's America.

So blacks had massive repression and discrimination - so that it means they have an excuse not to succeed?? By that same token - the Jews who were enslaved by Pharoah have a free pass and then suffered repression and discrimination afterwards - they don't have to worry about succeeding - if the Jews are failing - it's simple - just look at their 'tragic' history. This is a poor argument.

 

Racism and prejudice is not over - but it is markedly less than what it used to be 50 or 100 years ago. Pardon me, what are blacks 'still going through' - if you are talking about petty discrimination - move on because all coloured ppl face at some point. Yes, blacks have to worry about 'sucesses and grabbing the riches now' - if they don't - others are willing to grab for themselves.

 

Through the course of your post - there were a number of instances of condescension and insult. They include:

 

"is your thinking that simple?"

"obviously you have little knowledge about the circumstances of today's America"

 

If you have a resonable argument to make - make it. And it is important to separate an argument from the person - ie. you can call an argument simplistic but not the person based on one argument. Please keep it clean.

 

 

All does does not answer the question from your perspective - why do you think blacks are in the economic and social situation they are in today? Is all you have to say - slavery and discrimination? Is it that straightforward for you?

[Faarax-Brawn]

Am I missing something or is America still practicing slavery and Jim Crow etc

Actually yes.

 

I wish I could put it in a SIMPLER simple way. You personally said that that outsiders were fairing better than the black folks in america. Including Africans like me,so that makes it even more simpler to understand. It is not that black folks can not do very well for themselves,and as you have pointed out, Oprah and many others have done it .If it was a simple issue,then we would have many many oprahs and people of her calibre. This is a social,political ,pyschological and economic issue. You would have to go back some 500years ago. It is a Dominos effect.

 

Your Grand parents worked 20+ hrs a day for free, your father was refused to attend good schools(he was told he is too dumb to learn), you were lynched and killed if you spoke against injustices, you were not allowed to get good jobs .you were put in govt houses in govt estates with no jobs,no school and no businesses. Your only source of income is a check at the end of the month in the form of a welfare. What do you think the outcome will be? I will let you do the math. Compare that to a white person,whose grandparents were given land(with free labor),the sons inherit the land,go to school and become lawyers and Drs and what not…where is the freaking equality?? You expect those two descendants to perform equally in a market dominated capitalisitic society as this AMERICA?

 

Dude,cut the cadaan man's mentality. This has not been a fair start to begin with,and unless we do catch up,it wont be "EQUAL".

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Faarax-Brown:

Actually yes.

 

I wish I could put it in a SIMPLER simple way. You personally said that that outsiders were fairing better than the black folks in america. Including Africans like me,so that makes it even more simpler to understand. It is not that black folks can not do very well for themselves,and as you have pointed out, Oprah and many others have done it .If it was a simple issue,then we would have many many oprahs and people of her calibre. This is a social,political ,pyschological and economic issue. You would have to go back some 500years ago. It is a Dominos effect.

Is it a simple issue or is it not? You make two contradictory statments. One - Africans and other immigrants are faring better so that means blacks must be not doing well because of their history. Two - It is a social, political,... etc.

It can't be both. I agree that there is definite baggage. There is a dominoe effect to a degree in terms of poverty, education etc. But anyone can break out of that cycle. America is the 'Land of opportunity'. The question is: since MLK's speech why have blacks regressed in terms of poverty, absentee fathers, criminality, black male participation in post-secondary etc. It doesn't make sense that it was because of racism and discrimination - because the individuals back then suffered it. And successful blacks in the US have also suffered but have been able to overcome it. If the state of blacks was a question of slavery/discrimination/repression is the cause - then you would expect very few blacks to be the exception since all went through that - but no - there are many execptions. The question is - how do you account for those exceptions??

 

Your Grand parents worked 20+ hrs a day for free, your father was refused to attend good schools(he was told he is too dumb to learn), you were lynched and killed if you spoke against injustices, you were not allowed to get good jobs .you were put in govt houses in govt estates with no jobs,no school and no businesses. Your only source of income is a check at the end of the month in the form of a welfare. What do you think the outcome will be? I will let you do the math. Compare that to a white person,whose grandparents were given land(with free labor),the sons inherit the land,go to school and become lawyers and Drs and what not…where is the freaking equality?? You expect those two descendants to perform equally in a market dominated capitalisitic society as this AMERICA?

I don't expect them to HAVE performed equally in the past. But as to the present - why shouldn't they perform MORE equally? You can't have perfect equality because blacks live in poorer nieghbourhoods, their schools are underfunded etc. But this is where affirmative action comees in - they are given a helping hand. How could you not take advantage of that? Why are u dropping out of high school and getting pregnant etc? Is that a recipe for success? No, most will say - but is that the fault of the white man? I ask you FB - is it the fault of the white man???

 

Dude,cut the cadaan man's mentality. This has not been a fair start to begin with,and unless we do catch up,it wont be "EQUAL".

Of course, it is not a fair or similar start. That is why I don't expect blacks and whites to be equal on a host of economic/social indicators. And that is why I am a firm supporter of Affirmative Action and other programs. An unequal start should not be used to justify sleeping while the race of life is being run by everyone else. This is not cadaan man's mentality, saaxib. This is my mentality - an attempt at trying to explain something that is fairly complex. You, on the other hand, seem to lay it all at the feet of racism and think that blacks are blameless. I believe this is wrong. Every human has the ability to change their lives - at least make an attempt at it.

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by Faarax-Brown:

Actually yes.

 

I wish I could put it in a SIMPLER simple way. You personally said that that outsiders were fairing better than the black folks in america. Including Africans like me,so that makes it even more simpler to understand. It is not that black folks can not do very well for themselves,and as you have pointed out, Oprah and many others have done it .If it was a simple issue,then we would have many many oprahs and people of her calibre. This is a social,political ,pyschological and economic issue. You would have to go back some 500years ago. It is a Dominos effect.

Is it a simple issue or is it not? You make two contradictory statments. One - Africans and other immigrants are faring better so that means blacks must be not doing well because of their history. Two - It is a social, political,... etc.

It can't be both. I agree that there is definite baggage. There is a dominoe effect to a degree in terms of poverty, education etc. But anyone can break out of that cycle. America is the 'Land of opportunity'. The question is: since MLK's speech why have blacks regressed in terms of poverty, absentee fathers, criminality, black male participation in post-secondary etc. It doesn't make sense that it was because of racism and discrimination - because the individuals back then suffered it. And successful blacks in the US have also suffered but have been able to overcome it. If the state of blacks was a question of slavery/discrimination/repression is the cause - then you would expect very few blacks to be the exception since all went through that - but no - there are many execptions. The question is - how do you account for those exceptions??

 

Your Grand parents worked 20+ hrs a day for free, your father was refused to attend good schools(he was told he is too dumb to learn), you were lynched and killed if you spoke against injustices, you were not allowed to get good jobs .you were put in govt houses in govt estates with no jobs,no school and no businesses. Your only source of income is a check at the end of the month in the form of a welfare. What do you think the outcome will be? I will let you do the math. Compare that to a white person,whose grandparents were given land(with free labor),the sons inherit the land,go to school and become lawyers and Drs and what not…where is the freaking equality?? You expect those two descendants to perform equally in a market dominated capitalisitic society as this AMERICA?

I don't expect them to HAVE performed equally in the past. But as to the present - why shouldn't they perform MORE equally? You can't have perfect equality because blacks live in poorer nieghbourhoods, their schools are underfunded etc. But this is where affirmative action comees in - they are given a helping hand. How could you not take advantage of that? Why are u dropping out of high school and getting pregnant etc? Is that a recipe for success? No, most will say - but is that the fault of the white man? I ask you FB - is it the fault of the white man???

 

Dude,cut the cadaan man's mentality. This has not been a fair start to begin with,and unless we do catch up,it wont be "EQUAL".

Of course, it is not a fair or similar start. That is why I don't expect blacks and whites to be equal on a host of economic/social indicators. And that is why I am a firm supporter of Affirmative Action and other programs. An unequal start should not be used to justify sleeping while the race of life is being run by everyone else. This is not cadaan man's mentality, saaxib. This is my mentality - an attempt at trying to explain something that is fairly complex. You, on the other hand, seem to lay it all at the feet of racism and think that blacks are blameless. I believe this is wrong. Every human has the ability to change their lives - at least make an attempt at it.

[Chocolate and Honey]

Ina Abti, I opologize for any insult or injury you suffered from our little discussion. It wasnt my attention to be obscene and I truely opologize if you felt disrespected. with that said, lets get back to the topic at hand.

It seems that you subscribe to the theory of people having no control over their lives - that they are acted upon by others like some passive beast of burden.

No I dont. Not once did I concluded that Black people lack any control over their lives, they do but the truth is their lifesytle is conditioned And yes they should work on their promblems and better themselves and my urgument is: They are working as hard as they can to survive and succeed but it is all a working progress. you cant just miraclously expect them to rise&shine The "white" community has its tendecy of minimizing any progress we have made by showing us over and over the black criminal, the drug addict, the homeless, and every godforsaken low life

This is a poor argument - it doesn't explain anything but it makes the one stating this argument look smug and simplistic.

Ok, I'll it break it down for you. Lets go back to the hardworking Indian who works two jobs an goes to school at night and the black American person who robbs the gas station: Here goes the difference:

 

Nature&Nurture go side by side (in my opinion). Let’s look at some of the obstacles the immigrant Indian might run into: discrimination, prejudice, culture shock, and language struggle. But this new comer doesn’t have any previous history with the police. Now: his chances of succeeding are great because while he might have experienced some unpleasant and unfortunate situations, the society he grew have totally different outlook about life. He might even have parents supporting him and encouraging him to succeed. Bottom line: whatever fate he encounters he can endure it because this is not his country, his culture and his future. He is a foreigner and he knows that. He has a sense of identity.

Black-American person : here is his fate: He probably from broken home, single mother, foster home, big grandma (why is home broken? If your wondering that, review the harshness of slavery on marriages. For ex. As soon as the woman got pregnant, the “husbandâ€, who wasn’t even recognized to be married to the mother, was sold off to destroy family unity. You might say that was over a century ago but similar methods are used to break up the family and make the mother the sole undertaker. Welfare: does it ring a bell?), He tragically learned his fate in this country by the time he was in 2nd grade, when Emily told him he cant visit her home because her mother doesn’t associate with nigars, grew up at the corner with the only people he could identify with whether they were drugs or not, racially profiled, stereotyped against constantly, seen many faces like him on T.V(mainly criminals who are by no means positively influential to him) learned at school that to be good enough he had to be the best at some sort of sport because that was his only chance of becoming somebody, and when he wasn’t that good, he viewed himself as worthless . Fate is coming to get him. And well he might work his hardest everything in his society tells him that he is trying to be someonelse. And finally his fate arrives: his first arrest for mistaken identity. Now even with all these possible probmles black people achieve extraordinary goals and accomplish alot in life. And it is pathetic to expect them to be at the same level as the people who were privileged for centuries. I'm absoletly by no means condoning pity parties but do you see the dillema?

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Get UP!Up Even the best fall down sometimes

[Faarax-Brawn]

Is it a simple issue or is it not? You make two contradictory statments. One - Africans and other immigrants are faring better so that means blacks must be not doing well because of their history. Two - It is a social, political,... etc.

It can't be both.

And why cant it not be both? The social political policies[segregation,welfare etc] of the US govt has definetly had an adverse effect on the lives of most African Americans. Since most non African Americans were not part and parcel of these policies, that is why you see them fairing better than the African Americans(my opinion btw). When children don’t have role models,father figures and examplry cases in their family,it becomes a social issue. When raised by one parent on welfare benefits,with the father either a drug addict or in jail,it becomes a pyschological issue. Thereby making this a "social political,pyschological and economical issue". Hope you understand where I am coming from.

 

I don’t think you are being fair to the black community when you solely put blame on their struggles. It is one thing to criticize positivly on the progress and pace at which we would have hoped to achieve in the past years,it is however 'cadaan mentality' when you squarly blame and accuse the entire black nation for failures they didn’t bring on themselves.

 

Yes indeed,the struggles of the 60s didn’t produce the best of results that many wished and hoped for, we are still struggling against the odds. In my opinion,the day the young generation have kids,and own homes is the day we will probably see the fruits of desegregation and the civil rights movement.

[CHE]

I had a dream, that we rid ourselves all the preconcieved notions and see things for what they are.

 

 

Stealing the blackman(from africa) was the smartest thing the white man did.- Saul Williams

 

Are blacks barred from becoming lawyers, doctors, senators, educators etc.? Why are some blacks able to acheive all those things and others not? From your perpesctive - it's the WHITE MAN! That is really simplistic.

It is the white man dummy !- my quote

 

Its easy to pick-up the discussion here, ignore last four centuries, and judge black america on the basis of achievements rather than what has been done to them in the last 400 years.Black man fails not because of his competence as human, but nurture works against him. Something/someone must have led to the plight of black America .White men in America were being set up for success in the same duration that black men were being subdued. Back then, it was slavery in its most crude form. Today, we live in an era when half of congress does not want to renew the voting rights act which is up for renewal in 2007.Affirmative action is on the verge of being eliminated with neo-con ideologs on the bench.Crack(poor/black man drug) carries harsher punishment than cocaine(rich/white man drug). Inner city schools are in the worst possible shape. With all that working against the black man, there is no where for him to go but down.

[N.O.R.F]

Now i havnt read any of the replies to the original post (call me lazy) but MLK and the civil movememnt still havnt achieved what they 'dreamed'. Black people are still classed as second class citizens (dont believe the hype - Chuck D 1989). So you can sit on a bus now and get a white collar job, so what? big deal? :rolleyes: you still have affirmative action there right? you still have high crime, drugs etc in the majority black areas right?

 

So WTF has MLK achieved??? :rolleyes:

 

The Faarax Brown says:

 

Sisters Bisharo & Choco-Malab as well as Pointman,thanks for the replies & the positive vibe you are dishing out on this very IMPORTANT day in the calender of all

COLORED

peoples.

Blo*dy americans :rolleyes:

[Valenteenah.]

What has MLK done for you and Islam?..Nothing. What has he done for me and Islam?..Nothing. He fought for his rights and those of 'black' brothers/sisters in America. He died a kaafir and his fate lies with Allah Most High. He gets none from me.

Whatever the 'whites' did in the 1950's, I dont approve. Their crimes (raped,beaten,killed and denied freedom for so many years...) go without say. They indeed were evil. I for 1 will not thank MLK. Intead I thank Allah for giving the 'blacks' their freedom. MLK deserves his place in history, but why celebrate his life???? The life most worthy of celebrating is that of Muhammed Ibn Abdullah Ibn Abdul Mutalib, Messenger of Allah (SAW).

Jafarel,

 

It's not good to have such a narrow vision. There's nothing wrong with recognising and appreciating the spectacular deeds by mere people (Christian or otherwise) who have managed to directly or indirectly affect the lives of millions of people. If you really want to get fussy, I could point out that MLK probably did a lot for Islam by making the US a better place for Non-White Muslims to live in peacefully. The phrase "God works in mysterious ways" applies.

 

It's more than churlish to withhold credit from those who deserve it (whatever their religion), and I highly doubt if the Prophet (PBUP) ever did such a thing (refuse to give credit or recognise the good deeds of non-Muslims, that is). It's also ludicrous to imply that praising a Non-Muslim for their actions/efforts means negating the deeds of the Prophet (PBUH) or the Sahaba. What a wierd way to think.

 

Gaal iyo Muslim, Ilaahay baa dadka wada abuuray, Isagaana xisaabinaya hadhow.

[xiinfaniin]

MLK was a wise man whose oratory and eloquence helped to articulate the wickedness of racial injustices. He deserves to be remembered not only for what he achieved but also for what he shamelessly attempted to achieve but unfortunately failed to attain.

 

Blacks are not blameless. But they come long way and made a lot of progress. Though it’s easy to make false analogies, one need to realize that color is an unavoidable political reality in America.

 

To inject religion in to this discussion is understandable, but to use religious rhetoric to play down the significance of what black people had achieved is pointless.

[J.Lee]

^Afkaada caano iyo malab lagu shub maandhow.

 

Faraax Brown

:

Do you have a dream?

I have a dream that one day, hopefully on my 60th Birthday (I'A), that I will be able to sit by my children, their children and their children's children with the knowledge that I accomplished all that which I set out to: totally blissfully satisfied with my life.

[STOIC]

The social ill impacting black America today is racially disparate laws, disproportionate incarcerations, and lack of political respect. The national welfare of people depends upon a sufficiently even balance of political representations. Where the balance of political representation no longer exists, the welfare of the community perishes in the ashes of poverty! Mass incarceration of black America strongly undermines the family union that is being viewed as the cause of the black hole. It is a simple psychology; with the increase of parents behind bars comes an increase of a broken family structure. Unless black America gets a fair representation and good leadership, they will always be at the bottom of American dream.

 

Now it will be a naïve attempt to blame Uncle Sam where personal discipline and hard work is required to be anatomized. Apart from the racism that exists today in America there is no doubt that hard work is indissolubly linked to success in America (as some of you pointed out the immigrant example).It will be inappropriate to claim that black America are denied the door to success today even though the ultimate goal is still far from reach. Far from being locked inside their skin color today white America acknowledge the right of the black man. There is an invincible drag force that is pulling black America down. Unless we walk on their shoes it will be difficult for us to pin-point what is keeping them down(but we can only speculate).

[Jacpher]

I didn't read all the replies but isn’t it ironic that Americans are celebrating MLK birthday and the Voting Acts Rights is set to expire soon? Why did the legislators have to set an expiration date for such law? Black History Month (February) and MLK comes and goes but the reality is it does nothing beyond days off from work/school. Qacda maqashii waxna ha u qaban Alito is ready to resume his seat in the court and affirmative action is out the door. Black America needs to do more to lift herself up in society and If Black leaders don’t make enough noise, whatever MLK fought for would go down the sink.