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Cartoon Protest in London...

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Kashanre and Northerner,


JazaAllah Khayr waalyalaal for your posts.


Rahima, Ibtisam and others,


Inshallah, see the barakah in all this and that is that the love of the rasul (salallahu calihye wasilm) is a UNITING FACTOR in the UMMAH.


It wasn't for the LOVE and Kareemah (eezza/honor etc.) of the Rasul rasul (salallahu calihye wasilm) that Allah gave to the RASUL salallahu calihye wasilm) we would not be arguing with others, with others about WHOM loves the RASUL (salallahu calihye wasilm) more. smile.gif


Its a real good sign.


Imagine a world, where people DID NOT value the RASUL (salallahu calihye wasilm) ANYMORE but just went along with their lives, unfettered, unbothered by such news.


Imagine a world, wherein Muslim children wheren't taught about the (salallahu calihye wasilm)'s life, his struggles, his joys, his generosity, his hate for kufr etc.


I recall in the seerah when a sahabi wasn't satsfied with that a decision given to him by the RASUL (salallahu calihye wasilm), so this sahabi went to Omar ibn Al Khattab and told him that the Rasul'S (salallahu calihye wasilm) decision was unsatisfactory to him and that maybe Omar ibn Al Khattab could give him a better advice/decision on a certain matter. Well, Omar told the Sahabi to wait a min. and got his sword and killed him on the spot. The Rasul (salallahu calihye wasilm)

did not react negatively to Omar's action.


In the seerah (life of the prophet) there were poets who would speak ill of the rasul (salallahu calihye wasilm) and they paid the price for their slander against the rasul (salallahu calihye wasilm).


In anycase,


Inshallah, Allah is being remembered in All of this.


Fi Amanillah

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^^^ try weeping till jesus apears online and hands U piece of cloth to wipe your tears and our sins..Just a thought :D:D




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Ngonge, yes the protests that took place today in Bosaso City were linked and related to the on-going protestas in the muslim world against the depicting of the prophet of Islam.


It started off with a peaceful demonstration called by the religious leaders of the city and the mayor to protest against the insults against the prophet and to express their anger and sorrow.


The people calmly listened to speeches by the religious leaders and governmental authorities in the stadium of Bosaso, were they congregated in their masses. After the speeches ended they were told to leave but immidiately after the protesters left they started attacking and throwing stones against public and private institutions/organizations in the city.


The biggest anger was directed against the PSS (Puntland Secret Intelligence services) and OTP who have a direct link with the american Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and other western agencises such as Unicef and Danish NGO's.


The local authorities in Bendar Qaasim district, which Bosaso is the capital off had already taken precautions to protect and safeguard foreigners and governmental security agencies!


Soon after the protests got out of hand the Puntland Security Committee, which is made up by cabinet ministers, police commissioners, local government and head of the armend forces of the Darawish held a emergency meeting in which they condemned the violence and co-ordinated the police and armed forces to calm down the protesters.


The city went back to normality after 12:00 noon after the protesters were despersed by the riot police and numerous arrests were made.


One boy aged 14 was killed called Khadar Max’uud Cismaan who was killed in the "laanta Hawada" district in Bosaso, near the headquarters of SBC TV/Radio.


People's name that were injured were to be said five who sustained some injuries also a lot of police officers sustained light injuries.


Named injured according to Bosaso Hospital are:


1: Cali Max’ed Cali

2: Warsan Max’uud Cadde

3: Cali Cabdi Axmed

4: Cismaan Yuusuf Aw-Ciise

5: Cali Axmed Cali















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Emergency Security Meeting by the Puntland Security Committe condemned the attack and rioting against western outlets and the PSS.




Also the Vice President said that the people had a riot to express their anger but he has warned against violence directed at westerners who might not have to do with this whole story and who also might not be even danes.




VP urging protesters to calm down!

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Kashanre and Khayr,


Brothers I acknowledge that more than likely all those Muslims are protesting with good intentions laakiin good intentions do not always correlate with what is right or best.


I’m all for peaceful protesting if that is your thing, similarly I think the boycott of all Danish products is a brilliant and effective method of making them feel the heat for their blatant disrespect of our blessed prophet. That said, I don’t see what violent rioting and mind you injuring of one another is going to do. We need to stop waxaan and get back to the teachings of our blessed prophet. We need to get smart and think long term instead of reacting aimlessly every time. This, as I see it is just another proof of how the good intentions of the ummah continue to misfire. We were angered by Afghanistan, we rallied and cried out injustice- we were ignored, nothing achieved and now we’ve all forgotten. Next came Iraq, we went through the same and ended up in the same rut. We do the same about Palestine, every so often we remember our suffering brothers and then we all go back to our rosy lives. Nothing is ever done for the long term, nothing is achieved and we will continue bearing the brunt of the disrespect of the kuffar. We need to employ more effective methods, until we do so we will never progress.

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Originally posted by NGONGE:


You rhetorically ask: had the cartoons been about the Holocaust and Jews would the response been the same from the Danish government and the Western world? Seeing that it is a question you (and I) already know the answer to, I shall not bother to answer it. However, I shall instead deal with why things are so. The Jews, you see, would not have come out in such demonstrations and waved placards promising another eleventh of September and other nonsense. The most you would have got from them would have been a few press conferences where they criticise the world for condoning such offensive rubbish and threaten to take their case to the highest courts of whatever lands. They would have then, slowly, covertly and very diligently have gone about the business of punishing the perpetrators. Rest assured that if that Danish paper had insulted the Jews, it would have got easily punished. But, where WE differ from them is that we protest for today and never plan for tomorrow. The Jews would have worked towards changing the laws that allow such a paper to insult them in such a way. This is why Austria (which is no lover of Jews) has laws that forbid anti-Semitic utterances. You think the Austrians, out of the goodness of their own hearts decided to install such laws?


Holocaust arguments aside, it’s no secret that the Jews were hated and mistreated in Nazi Germany (and Austria) before the Second World War. They were; in fact, not very popular in many other parts of the world either. However, because Herr Hitler was foolish enough to declare war on almost the entire world, the proverb that says ‘my enemies enemy is my friend’ came into play and the Jews were welcomed with open arms by the Allies (you need to go back and read British newspapers prior to 1930 to see how much the Jews were hated back then). They then, as the war progressed (and because many of them were talented) went about pleading, granting favours and buying loyalties to make sure that nothing like what happened in Germany would ever happen to them again. There was no lashing out; rather meticulous long term planning that is bearing fruit today. They did it for Judaism and not for the Jews that lived at that time. Because, like how we believe with Islam, they believed that Judaism was for all time and not only today. Compare and contrast if you will.


I am no fan of Jewish conspiracies or their ability to control the world. For that, you’ll need to go and read the efforts of other Nomads. What I am a fan of is COMMON SENSE. The Jews, Christians and countless other groups always try to fight their cases with calm and long term planning. Ours, as evidenced by this case and the dozen others throughout the years has always been a reactionary response with no plans whatsoever.

Nothing has made so much sense to me in a long time.


However, the Jews were educated, talented and organised. They understood their religion and they understood that religious appeals wouldn't work on non-believers. The majority of muslims rioting in these countries are poor, fairly uneducated (about the world as well as their religion) and hopelessly divided and uncontrollable.


Such as the climate is today, and the arrival of all the signs of an all-out war (cultural if not military), I doubt muslims will ever achieve that same level of focus.


Even if they did, there's another obstacle to their course, that of their undeniable sympathy towards Al-Qaida principles. The leaders of these fringe (and terrorist) organisations are egging towards a global war, and the rhetoric they use is that of war. Now, these everyday young muslim rioters have pretty much grown up on this rhetoric and the terms they have been taught to counter the West's (often very subtle) opposition of muslims is that of war and vengeance and passion; two concepts inherently opposed to rationality and diplomacy, which are the necessary instruments to defeat such a wide problem.


That's why I see this whole (to borrow a cliche) 'clash of civilisations' escalating into something infinitely more sinister and destructive, namely a global war.


Ngonge pointed out that muslims are almost unique in their methods when challenged by a secular west; methods which contribute nothing and exacerbate an already trying situation for muslims. He referenced the way the Jewish have handled a similar situation and how they have done so more effectively.


I'm saying we are too far gone to ever apply that same challenge to the powers that be. We can always say that a few have hijacked our cause, but these 'fringe elements' are much more powerful than the majority of muslims could ever be. They are the ones shaping the future for muslims, and I fear that one day there will be nothing for us muslim but the choice between 'Al Qaida' and West, with both sides telling us 'you're either with us or against us'.


I guess we don't have to wonder what World War III is going to be about.

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Kashanre ,

The ‘any means necessary’ argument was coined by Malcolm X when he was a protégé of Elijah Muhammed when He entered into Orthodox Islam, he adopted a more sober, Islamic approach in his fight against racism. In Islam we don’t have a concept of ‘any means’, we have the Quraan and the Sunnah. It’s sad that in all this activity no one stopped to ask; What would the Prophet (saw) do?


Here we have brothers glorifying terrorism and Bin Laden at the expense of Muhammed (saw), foolxumo miyaaney ahayn?


The following is an email forward titled:


The Muslim Ummah is Sick



InnAl-Hamdu lillaahi Rabbil-'Aalameen as-Salaatu was-Sallam ar-

Rasoulullah ar'kareem.


As-salaamu `alaikum


Reference: Based on part of a Khutbah delieverd by Mu'tasim al-Hameedee at Masjid al-Ghurabaa, Luton (UK) on Friday 10th September 2004


The Muslim Ummah today is afflicted with a severe sickness. Many of

those, who claim to be Du'aat, who claim to be calling to Islaam,

they don't have patience. They don't have patience to learn from the

Scholars. They don't have patience to go through the steps that

Allaah has set for the Believers. A step after a step, one step at a

time, in order to bring back victory and honour to Islaam. Rather,

they think that with their own emotions they will bring victory to

Islaam. But, what they do, they bring destruction to this Ummah.


They know that the Muslims are not upon correct `Aqeedah, correct

Belief. They know that the Muslims have indulged in sin. They know

that the Muslims are so weak in their Eemaan. They know that the

Muslims have turned away from Allaah but they want to bring victory

and honour to the Muslims Ummah. They think with just one word, or

with rioting in the streets, or with killing people here and there

whether they are kuffar or not, whether they are innocent people or

whether they are soldiers who fight the Muslims, that they will

bring victory to the Muslim Ummah.


They don't have knowledge to seek proper understanding of the Deen.

They don't have patience in order to seek this knowledge. In order

to cultivate the Ummah upon the true religion and bring the Muslims

back to their Religion. And this is where Allaah will bring victory

to the Muslim Ummah.


Allaah talked about those kinds of people in the Qur'aan by saying:


"Have you not seen those who were told to hold back their hands

(from fighting)." (4:77)


As it is not time...


People came to the messenger of Allaah (sall-Allaahu `alayhi was

salaam) and they said to him:


"O Messenger of Allaah, lets us go and fight the kuffar! They

expelled us out of our country. Let us go and fight them!"


The Prophet (sall-Allaahu alayhi was salaam) told them:


"It is not time yet. We are not ready yet. There is a lot of Eemaan

to be instilled in the heart of the Muslims."


There are a lot of physical preparations that has to take place. It

is not a matter of emotions, it is not a matter of haste.


"Have you not seen those who were told to hold back their hands

(from fighting) and perform as-Salaat (IqaamatasSalaat), and give

Zakaat..." (4:77)


So at that time when Muslims were being humiliated by the kuffar,

and those people wanted to fight the kuffar. Allaah (subhaanahu wa

ta'aala) said to them:


"...hold back their hands (from fighting) and perform as-Salaat

(IqaamatasSalaat)..." (4:77)


Your strength lies in the Prayer...


Many don't understand this. Many don't want to understand this.


"...and perform as-Salaat (IqaamatasSalaat), and give Zakaat…"



The Muslims were humiliated, were attacked. And the kuffar were

preparing themselves to annihilate the Muslims and wipe them out!

And Allaah was saying to them:


"...and perform as-Salaat (IqaamatasSalaat), and give Zakaat..."



And today the same people come back and we say to them: "Seek

knowledge! Call the Muslims back to their religion! The Muslims have

to stick to their religion before the victory comes from Allaah."

This is how Allaah has set the way for this Ummah.


And they say to you: "The Muslims are being killed all around this

world and you say to us seek knowledge! And you say to us, teach the

people Islam!"


They think you are an ***** while you (in reality) are following the

Qur'aan and the Sunnah. They don't realise that they have no

understanding of the Qur'aan and the Sunnah. They only follow their

emotions. And what is the outcome of their actions? Destruction upon

the Ummah!


The Muslims are being attacked all over the world now. All around

the world they are mistreated where ever they go. At airports, where

ever they travel. Hassle and harassment upon every Muslim! Every

Muslim is accused. Every Muslim is a criminal! How many people

turned away from Islaam?


So Allaah sets the example of those people.


"Have you not seen those who were told to hold back their hands

(from fighting) and perform as-Salaat (IqaamatasSalaat), and give

Zakaat..." (4:77)


So when fighting was written as an obligation upon them what

happened to them?


"...but when the fighting was ordained for them, behold! a section

of them fear men as they fear Allaah or even more." (4:77)


So those who are in a rush, those who haste to bring victory to the

Muslim Ummah through their own emotions, when the real time for the

battle comes and the time for the real fight against the kuffar

comes we will see them the first ones to turn their backs and run



Are these my own words? We find it in the Qur'aan of Allah

(subhaanahu wa ta'aala) in Soorah an-Nisa.


May Allaah make us of those who take heed!


Subahanaka Allaahuma wa bihamdika ashadu a laa illa illah anta

astagfirouka wa at-tabu ilaik.


Was-salaamu `alaikum

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Saaxib NGONGE, in an effort to fully comprehend your argument, the one you accused us of rejecting, I came across the following statements of yours. On first glance, they seem contradictory but upon further study, I believe they show your anger and frustration at how the reaction to the cartoons has been bodged. You make us come across as anti free speech when you know full well, at least in my case, we're not. Shed some light on these statements, will you?


First statement describing how the Jews would react to such defamation:


Originally posted by NGONGE:

But, where WE differ from them is that we protest for today and never plan for tomorrow. The Jews would have worked towards changing the laws that allow such a paper to insult them in such a way.

Second statement describing what you believe Muslims would be doing if they attempt to use the same approach as the Jews:


Originally posted by NGONGE:

When I joined the topic yesterday, I was of the opinion that we should resort to the law courts and seek orders that limit the freedom of speech of such troublemakers. But, the longer I thought about it, the more ludicrous that idea seemed to me.

Saaxib why is it ludicrous for us, and not for them, what seems to be the tried, tested and true method of dealing with these things? No matter, we're really not that far apart in our arguments and this is no personal attack on you. The only point of contention between you and I is your assertion that everyone has the right to say anything no matter who gets offended. That's not how the world works and it's not what free speech is all about. Understanding that last fact is not an endorsement of the insanity that's occuring in the Middle East or that maddness of a protest in London. The two are not one and the same thing.

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Saaxib, as long as you’re questioning what seems to you like inconsistency, ambiguity or contradictions your comprehension problems (never said that any of us were perfect) are positive ones and one can’t criticise you for it. This, you see, is how rational discussions are conducted. I have no reason to take any of what you asked as an attack nor do I find it frustrating (as I usually do with the usual nonsense I get from people that don’t understand nor have the desire to understand).


The example I gave of the Jews was used to illustrate how they would go about dealing with similar problems. It was not put forward as the exact way we should behave. The difference between Islam and other faiths (at present) is that Islam is a loud, public and very open faith. I shall take you on a little roundabout trip here but hope that you have the patience to follow me along and watch as the tiny little lights of truth (and reality) illuminate your way.


Everyone in the world has heard about Judaism and knows that it is a divine faith. However, not many know or understand how that faith works. You don’t often see Jewish missionaries in your local mall or city centre. You don’t come across them on TV or radio shows. Even if you live in a predominantly Jewish neighbourhood, you’re unlikely to know much about them (unless, you seek them out and choose to learn and ask). I’m not attempting to imply that Judaism is a secretive faith (with all the accompanying connotations of conspiracy and what not). What I’m saying is that it is not a faith that actively seeks to convert new followers or put itself - politics aside - on display (as far as I’m aware, and I stand to be corrected of course). In fact, I can’t think of any people that complain about the daily rituals of the Jewish faith other than the Palestinians (and they of course do so because they’re exposed to it on a daily basis). The Jews of Europe, therefore, can easily work towards changing laws and attitudes (as they’ve done throughout the years) safe in the knowledge that it will not backfire on them through a fault or action of their own loud sermons (politics aside again).


Next, let us move to the Christians! I’ll beg your pardon if I bulldoze through this part of my reply and group Christians into one cluster. Out of this cluster, I shall only concern myself with the evangelists and those on the Christian right (for the purpose of our discussion, you see, the Vatican is hardly ever controversial - abortion aside). Now, those on the Christian right are indeed loud and often controversial. However, the majority of them are on the fringes of Western society. I’ll of course concede here that there is a group of them that is at the heart of that society and, arguably, runs the show (i.e. Bush and co). Nonetheless, whichever group you choose to examine, you’ll find that, for the most part, they concern themselves with what can be termed as inner issues of their faith and do not (often) bother with other faiths. The game being played here is the separation of the state and church. Any action taken against other faiths is the responsibility, fault and problem of the state and not the church. Any controversial pronouncements are made (mostly) by the state. The church distances itself from controversy (regardless of its views) and assumes a peaceful posture. Because of this, Christians (apart from very extreme groups) do not require any laws protecting them, and if they do receive any laws, are unlikely to do anything that would rebound on them (i.e. utter any declarations that would breach those laws).


Now, we reach the home straight and come to the reason for all that build up (I hope you’re still with me). Islam (today) works differently. There is no separation between church and state (though this is not the argument I’m forwarding of course). With us, faith is politics and politics is faith. We make all our decisions (on almost any issue) after consulting our divinely revealed constitution and not the American, French or British ones. However, the two often clash. See homosexuality laws; hate laws and a dozen other western laws that our Islamic laws conflict with! Luckily, the freedom of expression allows us to utter all we want and make whatever offensive (in the eyes of others) statements we want to present without the fear of prosecution or imprisonment.


Almost every Friday, the Imams of mosques all over the world will talk about the plight of the Muslims and how desperate our situation is. They’ll, almost inevitably, talk about the wicked Jews, dreadful Christians and ghastly non-believers. You have to understand here that I’m not mentioning this to criticise these Imams (that argument we leave for another discussion), what I’m trying to point out is that all these assertions are offensive to Jews, Christians and non-believers. Again, if this were confined to mosques, it would not have mattered to the points I’m trying to make. However, it’s not! These exact points are later on peddled by ordinary Muslims and declared loudly by all and sundry.


Islam today is a very loud and aggressive faith. Has it always been the case? Again, perhaps that’s an argument for another time. However, because it is so today, we can’t possibly ask for laws that protect us from offence and insult when we can’t guarantee that our own words will not be offensive and insulting to others. If I ask you to drop the Hijab or pray only twice a day, or even, not loudly voice the controversial (to western ears) parts of the Quran, you would vehemently refuse and say (rightfully so) that you, as a human, are in no position to revise the creator’s commands! You would, ironically enough, accuse me of trying to limit your freedom of expression (faith). You (using Western standards) will of course be correct in your accusation (others will accuse me of much more, but that’s because they probably can’t read and actually believe this is what I’m calling for here). The Christians (and others) on the other hand can and do (often) revise their faith! Because we’re in this quandary, we can’t conceivably ask for laws that limit the freedom of speech of others. Again, the point is: if you follow God’s laws and choose to put them above those of man, don’t try to force man to change his laws to fit in with yours, or, eventually, man will (and can) install laws that force you to abandons god’s laws! The French ban on Hijab is a perfect example of that. Remember what was our collective cry when that was introduced, saaxib? That’s right, it was “they’re trying to limit our freedom of expressionâ€!


On your point regarding the Freedom of Speech, you assert that this is not how the world works. You are absolutely correct in that contention. However, you’re WRONG in the way you reached your conclusion there. First of all, you need to play the game of semantics and focus on the meaning of FREEDOM. What does it mean and how does it work? Are there clear boundaries to the freedom of speech? Under whose law?


I don’t think there is any point in going over old ground here. I shall not rehash old arguments or give new examples. Instead, I’ll invite you to read my previous examples on the American civil rights and the Jews. Those examples prove and show that, in the western world (at least), the idea of the freedom of speech is one of absolute freedom unless (and until) the laws say otherwise. Yes, if there is no law (or admin) to punish me, I am free to call you all the names under the sun. This freedom is legitimate and unconditional but is only regulated by traditions, responsibility, common sense and wisdom. All of these (and in the absence of a clear law) are left to the discretions of the offender. There is also extra elements that rein in the freedom of speech. That’s the threat of force or the loss of benefit (both would go under the heading common sense I suppose). An example of that would be the boycotting of Danish products (if it were really a long term or at least medium term act that is). In other words, if the Danish paper promises NEVER to print such cartoons again then this limit on its freedom of speech has succeeded (however, as you know, the paper has not yet made such a promise).


What I’m trying to tell you is that unless your fist meets my face, your lawsuit imprisons me or your retaliation is likely to hurt me, I am free to offend you in any way I like. In the case we have here, none of these options apply. Besides, if the violent option was chosen, your violent overreaction would be far worse than my mere offensive words.



I have a feeling that you’re not convinced. I would really love to hear your view (and that of others) on the legitimate limits on the freedom of speech (expression).

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^ You will forgive me if I take some time to fully read this. I've decided to reserve my quick replies to trolling.

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