Cartoon Protest in London...

[Castro]

Limiting his ability to offend in that way will not stop him from finding another way to offend. But what about you when he hoist you by your own petard?

You've said this a few times and I need to remind you that some things we should take "on the chin" when they're said to offend us but others we cannot. You also hate this comparison but I will say it to you again, the Jews will not allow the biggest massacre of their people to be denied and Muslims cannot allow the messenger of their religion to be insulted. These laws that you threaten will limit my ability to be Muslim cannot be the same ones we should use to prevent the abuse of the sacred religious matters. You are scaring us with a boogey man that does not, cannot and should not exist.

 

 

You insist that Islam is under siege. That there are people out there whose main aim is to undermine Islam.

With this, you're giving me no choice but to go into a geopolitical tirade, saaxib. Muslims are sitting on much of the world's proven oil reserves. They're also within a stone's throw from much of the natural gas reserves of the world in central Asia. Now, it's no secret there's a second gold rush into that part of the world since peak oil production in the world is occuring or has occured already. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (and who knows how many are to come) are a clear indication of what I'm asserting above. In terms of the number of followers, the rate at which that number is increasing, the strong identity it gives its followers, Islam is the strongest religion in the world today. That strength represents a clear and present danger to those who have rushed to this gold. Undermining Islam, and therefore Muslims, makes getting to the gold a less costly (and less bloody) endeavour.

 

Where do the cartoons fit in all of this? Well, these things don't occur in vacuum, saaxib. You correctly pointed out my belief that the cartoonists were neither random nor accidental people. That they are somehow tied in with the "conspirators" above requires some reasoning so bear with me. Directly, it is unlikely the cartoonists have been instructed by any weapons maker, oil company or right wing western government to draw the cartoons. Indirectly, however, the current environment of hostility, xenophobia, military aggression and vilification of Muslims perpetrated by these right wing governments and their supporters (monarchs, media and multinationals), has indeed made the conditions ripe for such insensitive and bigoted cartoonists to draw these abominations. The acts of the those rushing to the gold have, in essence, given these already prejudiced individuals the guts to dare insult Islam. After constantly watching Muslims on their knees facing the barrel of a gun, in Abu Ghraib, naked, fighting dogs, or in a Camp X-ray, for years, without charges, coupled then with their own ignorance, these cowards have finally acquired the cajonas to do what they did.

 

Having said all this, I still think this is neither new nor unique in the history of the world. Many a nations, races and religions have been under siege in the past and they either persevered or perished. Looking at those who persevered (at least recently), you will notice that using the law was their most effective strategy. From repealing slavery and segregation laws to creating civil rights, liberties and hate speech laws. The results of their courage, perseverence and hard work we all enjoy (and take for granted) today.

 

As I said earlier, laws alone won't be enough but without them it's mayhem. In other words, laws are necessary for keeping insults from those who purposely incite hatred. Unfortunately, being necessary does not mean being sufficient. Laws are inadequate in forcing people to understand other cultures or become sensitive to what they hold sacred. They also have loop holes, they may be rendered obselete with time or even be overhauled due to wars or the imposition of martial laws. Despite these inadequacies, they are more than adequate in stopping aggressors who willfully choose to be insensitive and spew hatred.

 

Saaxib I literally have no more to say on this issue so I will, again, give you the last word.

[Katrina]

^Is that defeat I smell?

[Castro]

^ You read the last line only, didn't you? :rolleyes:

[Katrina]

Lol, atheer you know me too well. :mad: Anywaz isn't the last line suppose to summarize your argument? Really, who has the patience or time to read school boys go back and forth until someone waves the white flag?

This is why I hardly respond to Ngonge's posts. It would take me a week to read, absorb and rationalize it...must be one of those non-readers he mentioned.

[NGONGE]

Heh. You didn’t have to go into that “geopolitical tirade†of yours, saaxib. My words (the ones you quoted) were not meant in the way you understood them. Read the paragraph in its entirety. The geopolitical aspects are besides the point in what (I thought) we were discussing there.

 

I’ve tried to come at you from all directions to pin you down and get you to understand my position in this debate but you keep skipping and hopping all over the place, saaxib. Wont you stand still?

 

Half of the things you assert here are a given, the hatred of Muslims, the geopolitical mumbo-jumbo and the Zionist conspiracies. It’s what we (as Muslims) have been droning about for the past fifty years. When I engage in a discussion such as this one with you (or anyone else) I make the basic assumption that we’re both aware of these issues and need not keep mentioning them at every turn.

 

Still, since you choose to mention them and have this tirade, allow me to have a little rant of my own. You say that these cartoons did not come out of thin air! In your opinion, they’re the work of some sinister world conspiracy that is hell bent on undermining Islam. It’s a fair guess I suppose. But, such a guess requires a leap of faith on my part (and that of any that would believe in such things). I’ve already made one leap of faith in believing that a creator exists. I’m happy and comfortable with that decision. For everything else, I require solid proof or at least a very strong argument.

 

I’m not sure if you believe that all the ‘terrorist’ attacks in the West, Iraq and all other parts of the world are the work of Muslims or if you, like many of our brothers, believe them to be the work of these Zionist plotters. If it were the former, would it not follow that such people (‘terrorists’) contributed to the creation of this highly charged atmosphere that eventually led to the printing of such cartoons? If it is the latter, why then, when they already RULE the world, do these people need to play such games and waste their time in undermining and plotting against Islam? Why don’t they just colonise Muslim lands without the need for all this fanfare and excuses? Why not wipe them out of the face of the Earth?

 

I don’t want to speak for you here, but I suspect that your answer to my questions will have something to do with democracy and public opinion.

 

The subject above (and my accompanying rant), though important and worth discussing on its own, was on the margins of what we’re talking about here. What we’re talking about here is your insistence that a law that gags the media from insulting Islam should be introduced. I’m trying to make you see that such a law (under current conditions) is unworkable. It’s unworkable because, like I already said, Islam today is a very loud faith. Offensive placards, controversial statements and angry words aside, how feasible do you think such a law will be if a bomb keeps going in a European capital every once in a while? What you’re asking for is akin to two infants that stick their tongues out at each other behind the teacher’s back. One complains and says “Teacher, teacher, Jan Molby is sticking his tongue out at me†yet when the teacher catches you retaliating and tells you off, you get upset! Can we guarantee that the ‘Islamic’ bombers, agitators, inciters and hate-spreaders will behave themselves? If we can’t and at the same time demand a law that will stop others from mocking us and making offensive words/cartoons against us, how do you expect such people to act? People need some sort of a release, surely! Their argument (and its one that, though is wrong, can still go the distance) is that they merely drew cartoons not killed or bombed people. Their collective cry is ‘can’t we even do that in our own lands?’

 

I don’t believe laws will work. I believe that instead of angry demonstrations and burning of buildings and property, we should have shamed Europe (and the West at large) into recognising the folly of some of its people. To angrily demonstrate puts people’s backs up and is of no ultimate benefit to us.

[Khayr]

Originally posted by Castro:

 

NGONGE may be more interested in changing how Muslims behave than changing western laws to curb free speech. Though he won't come out and say it.

 

Ngonge said

I don’t believe laws will work. I believe that instead of angry demonstrations and burning of buildings and property, we should have shamed Europe (and the West at large) into recognising the folly of some of its people. To angrily demonstrate puts people’s backs up and is of no ultimate benefit to us.

Do give us a Template saxib, Do give us a Blueprint saxib!!!!!!!!!

 

Blessed/Aminah walaal, I haven't had a chance to glance fully at your response. You made some valid points and inshallah, i'll respond when I have some amble time on the computer, likely over the weekend.

[Castro]

Originally posted by NGONGE:

we should have shamed Europe (and the West at large) into recognising the folly of some of its people.

We should also shame them into learning about Islam, since their faith has been diluted and corrupted over the millennia. In fact, shaming works so well that we should shame murderers and rapists into "recognising the folly" of their crimes. Do you not understand Muslims view the cartoons as sacrilege?

 

I won't bother cataloging your misunderstanding and mischaracterizing of my statements but I will ask you this, what are these "current conditions" that you're so adamant would make any laws useless and "unworkable"? You could spend time on that, and only that, if you will.

[NGONGE]

Don’t patronise me, saaxib. You don’t have to tell me what Muslims view as sacrilege and what they don’t. I am fully aware of what is considered blasphemous and what is not. But we are not talking about ME. We are talking about Non-Muslims. Do you NOT understand that non-Muslims don’t care what is blasphemous to you and what is not?

 

Your sarcastic reply about shaming rapists and murders is totally unbecoming, saaxib. Do I always have to WRITE IT WITH BIG LETTERS? Some people beat up and mug old ladies, but society at large does not. It’s a shameful act. It’s wrong. When people hear about it, they condemn it straight away and never try to rationalise it in any way. This is the kind of reaction you need to get from Westerners. To get that, you need to shame them into it, not force them by using laws. You’ll still have some numbskulls doing their best to provoke Muslims but those don’t really matter and should be ignored. Please, spare me the lecture about the meaning of sacrilege.

 

“Current conditions†was a phrase you used in your earlier reply, saaxib. I was merely borrowing it to show the other side of the coin (the one where some Muslims do the bad things like killing, blowing things up and hijacking).

 

I am grateful for your permission to allow me to spend some time expanding my points on that area. Sadly, that’s what I thought I was talking about all along. Can Muslims guarantee that some of their fellow Muslims will not blow up Western cities?

 

Your “current conditions†are to do with the Middle East and the Islamic world; my “current conditions†are to do with the West. The laws you demand, you demand from the West. From where I’m sitting, and because of clear evidence (remember Rushdie?) shouting sacrilege, sacrilege is not going to work.

[Khayr]

Originally posted by Castro:

We should also shame them into learning about Islam, since their faith has been diluted and corrupted over the millennia. In fact, shaming works so well that we should shame murderers and rapists into "recognising the folly" of their crimes. Do you not understand Muslims view the cartoons as sacrilege?

 

I won't bother cataloging your misunderstanding and mischaracterizing of my statements but I will ask you this, what are these "current conditions" that you're so adamant would make any laws useless and "unworkable"? You could spend time on that, and only that, if you will.

[Castro]

So a little patronizing gets you out of your comfortable posture, good NGONGE. And the last time I checked, muggers of old ladies are caught, tried and thrown in jail. Never have I seen a shame-a-mugger parade in my life. And I'm not patronizing you now.

 

I can't bloody guarantee what Muslims will do and you know that. I should neither be held hostage to that and accept every bloody insult in the off chance a Muslim will blow something up in the future. You're energizing me again. If Westeners move en masse to Islamic countries (as we have to the west) they will then have to figure a way out of the issues they may face there. For now, that's not the case and the mess that is the Middle East is not what this is about. That (yet to be introduced) laws would or would not work is a matter for speculation, saaxib. Laws are tested by practice and precedence not speculation and guesswork. Where these laws exist today, they work just fine.

 

Edited: NGONGE, saaxib, is it not ironic that those who were actually bombed (the U.S., U.K. and Spain) chose not to print these cartoons and pip-squeaks Denmark and Norway flaunted them with cries of free speech? Be careful not to decend down the slippery argument the U.S., U.K. and Spain are exercising restraint for political, face saving, reasons as they have (very recently) invaded Muslim lands.

[STOIC]

The West understands to separate the “significant†from the “insignificantâ€. What the West views as a “significant†we don’t personally view it the same. A woman being mugged is more offensive to West than an insult on their religion because insult does not impact their lives but being mugged does it. As a Muslims whatever that is being directed against our religion or our prophet does impact us more than a woman being mugged. This is significant to us. The West-most of them- do not act collectively as we do. They may argue that this might not lessened their love for their religion. I personally think that there is a crush of significance here that needs a dialogue and not a violent repression. I am not an expert on how to achieve this, but I have itching feeling that it could be attained .

[Alle-ubaahne]

What happen to the great professor NGONGE ? I am suprised because the amazing gentleman appears weak in arguments. I never expected the likes of Castro would shake the spine of the professor! Is it me, or someone is singing at Yemen?

 

War qosol badanaa meesha! gax gax gax gax.....

[NGONGE]

Originally posted by Castro:

So a little patronizing gets you out of your comfortable posture, good NGONGE. And the last time I checked, muggers of old ladies are caught, tried and thrown in jail. Never have I seen a shame-a-mugger parade in my life. And I'm not patronizing you now.

 

I can't bloody guarantee what Muslims will do and you know that. I should neither be held hostage to that and accept every bloody insult in the off chance a Muslim will blow something up in the future. You're energizing me again. If Westeners move en masse to Islamic countries (as we have to the west) they will then have to figure a way out of the issues they may face there. For now, that's not the case and the mess that is the Middle East is not what this is about. That (yet to be introduced) laws would or would not work is a matter for speculation, saaxib. Laws are tested by practice and precedence not speculation and guesswork. Where these laws exist

today, they work just fine.

 

Edited: NGONGE, saaxib, is it not ironic that those who were

actually

bombed (the U.S., U.K. and Spain) chose not to print these cartoons and pip-squeaks Denmark and Norway flaunted them with cries of free speech? Be careful not decend down the slippery argument the U.S., U.K. and Spain are exercising restraint for political, face saving, reasons as they have (very recently) invaded Muslim lands.

I see that your not being patronising this time and I really wish you were. If it was hard to understand let me tell you that it’s not the mugger that I allude to here but the actual crime. I’m quite astonished that we’re actually having this little squabble over such a simple point. It is almost impossible to ban such acts (the insulting of one’s faith). Surely you posses enough common sense to know that whatever law you call for (and eventually manage to introduce) will not be far reaching enough to stop every upstart that wishes to insult Islam. In the same way that neither the Jews nor black people managed to stop extreme right groups from carrying on with their insults under the guise of free speech. What you can do (and please try to be serious here) is change attitudes and perceptions. Laws alone don’t do that and in the current climate (where everyone is crying about the restriction of their freedom of speech) such laws will only exasperate the problem. At the moment, and judging by the reactions of the majority of the West, what we as Muslims find offensive and insulting and our reactions to it is viewed as ill-tempered, jumped-up and self-absorbed. Those that don’t view it as such are merely being indifferent. Even those that sprang up to the ‘aid’ of Muslims and declared their opposition to these cartoons did nothing more than pay simple lip service! The demand for and introduction of laws, for anyone that’s being rational as they view this, will only result in more stubbornness and the strengthening of these prejudices and attitudes.

 

As for saying that you should not be held hostage to the actions of others, well, you’re not being realistic here and are letting your irritation rule your head. You know full well that this is not how things work and that the minute any ‘terrorist’ action takes place the finger is immediately pointed at Muslims first (remember Oklahoma Timmy?). This is how the game is being played and that’s how it always worked. A simple law is NEVER going to shield you from this.

 

The waffle about large numbers of Westerners moving to the Middle East is total and utter balderdash and we, neither of us, need waste our time on it. The comparison does not even make sense nor apply to the situation we have here.

 

Again, on the issue of the laws, and with all due respect, you’re talking total twaddle, saaxib. Of course such laws should be open to speculation and guesswork. How else do you think they pass through parliaments and are made into law if no speculation and guesswork is applied and arguments made as to their suitability or not. What is wrong with you today, saaxib? You’re not being rational at all in these arguments of yours!

 

Your last edit is even more bewildering than all the perplexing words that preceded it. To argue that the UK, Spain and US have not printed the words and use that as proof of some nonexistent case is to completely miss the point. Have you taken leave of your senses or are you really trying to imply that these governments get to view and approve the work of the independent media before ‘news’ is broadcast? Incidentally, the BBC did show some of the cartoons when it reported the news.

 

I can’t understand your logic at all, saaxib. On the one hand, you’re demanding that laws protecting Muslim sensibilities be introduced (which implies your understanding and acceptance of democratic rules). Yet, in the same breath and on the other hand, you doggedly warn me from mentioning things like restraint and face saving, as if I’m talking about Burkina Faso or Zimbabwe and not these (as your demands for your laws confirm) DEMOCRACIES. The Daily Telegraph, Mail and Times might have been ardent supporters of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan; however, they’re INDPENDENT news mediums and DO NOT make or decide the foreign policy of the country. I cringe in embarrassment at the need to state such an obvious point.

 

Still, talking of the Iraq war. When it was about to take place, our rage was not as destructively evident or petulant as it is with this case. All those that opposed it did so peacefully. The war, of course, went ahead anyway. However, hundreds of thousands of non-Muslims came out in (peaceful) demonstrations to all shout “not in my nameâ€. Why have they not come out in support of Muslims today I wonder!

 

For the love of the prophet, saaxib. Try, try, try to reflect on this matter dispassionately and allow the storm of your rage to subside.

[Alle-ubaahne]

^^Professor, you tried, but you can't score enough to catch up with the heavy shots of Castro. It is time to admit defeat, saaxib.

 

I salute Castro for his return to the base of the conservative bench. Welcome adeer.

[Castro]

Conservative? Maya atheer. I'm still a liberal.

 

Originally posted by NGONGE:

allow the storm of your rage to subside.

Rage? At who or what? I've reflected enough on this but let's see if I have the desire to return.