Originally posted by Caano Geel: point: I have an issue with the indoctrination part. If being gay was something that people were led to, it would of died out long ago and certain wouldn't exist in most of the world. So i dont see what an affirmative character is meant indoctrinate a child to. simply because of the age, i think this is not aimed at people outside of that community.. The indoctrination is not 'be gay' - it's that it's alright and fine. ie. Just do it! As to the dying out etc - that is a whole other debate but suffice it to say whether nature or nurture - telling someone it is good, acceptable, alright can hardly check the behaviour. In fact - it only seems to promote it. As to your last comment - I don't think I fully understood it. It seems that this book may be taught in schools according to the OP. As such - it will be aimed at a broader mrkt than gay parents.

Originally posted by Khalaf: but we have 2 choices in these societies and to answer your question aliayah: 1. Either go about yo bidness, and this haram will reach u na mean 2. Or become active members of society like the companions ra beforetime. ex: Canada big somali/muslim community there right? make mini-madinas, schools, islamic society within larger Canada na mean. Thepoint sxb: they u know who corrupted the western society, and they will come to muslim countries to do the same thing....bet on it. salaamy alaykum Not sure about 1 - how it will reach you but I get your drift. As to number 2 - a lotta of that infrastructure is in place. I certainly can add to it, help sustain it but there are questions about how active anyone can be in that regard unless you devote yourself to it. But again I think this warrants a whole other thread. PS - I'm not worried about the Muslim countries on this score - Can't see anyone prying this door open anytime soon.

Why is this in the Women's section again? :confused:

Originally posted by Khalaf: ThePoint bro: the point i am making: homonimo is a great evil, a muslim is he who hates these evils at least in his heart which is the weakest mark of iman, if there is "tolerance, accptance" in the individuals heart, then they have no iman and w/out iman u are not a muslim. 1 - Homonimo(hehe) is a great evil. Got it. One must believe that. 2 - How do we define 'tolerance'and 'acceptance' tho Khalaf? If one of them is walking down the street - do you go kill them. Do you go lecture them? What do you do? IMO - the average imam would say acudo... and just walk away. And that would be my personal response too. In a way - an inflexible person would define this as tolerance and acceptance which then nullifies our iman according to your belief. Que passa? How do you define tolerance and acceptance? That is what the whole issue hinges on?

Originally posted by Caano Geel: point: i remember the row when the school my sister went to tried to introduce the teaching of islam (early 2k) to the curriculum with catholics going ape on their culture and believes. what is the difference .. muslim people want their kids to learn about islam they choose, some one else chooses what is right for them, you dont have to follow it/ 2 issues with your post: 1- The story talked about here is a protagonist who rejects 3 females in favour of the male of his dreams; there is an active story portraying the (gay) lead character in a positive, affirmative role thus imparting to children that this is appropriate and right. This is far different to a book that says Muslims believe in X, Y, and Z. That is descriptive. The story we have here is not. 2- Another issue is the age at which kids are exposed to this. 5-7 years old is not an appropriate age to be teaching kids this stuff. At that age it's indoctrination. Because once again - these stories are meant to impart lessons and behaviours to kids. Personally - I would have few issues if a 12 year old is taught that gay means X, Y, and Z. Those are facts of life.

Originally posted by Khalaf: this is something agreed upon sxb, if one is happy don’t bother me attitude with haraams and this is a great evil mentioned in the Quran, and it doesn’t bother the individual at least in their heart, then they have no faith not even the smallest of iman. Fadlan the other brothers/sisters correct me if wrong, i took a seerah class and this is what i learned: "There was not a Prophet whom Allah sent berfore me, but he had disciples and companions from among his people. They follow his way (Sunnah) and obey his orders. After that, later generations come. They would claim to do what they do not do. They would do what they were not ordered to do. Whoever struggles against them with his hand, is a believer. Whoever struggles against them with his tongue, is a believer. Whoever rejects them with his heart, is a believer. There is no Iman left after this, even the weight of a mustard seed." [Muslim] There is a difference between saying that homo is a great evil and saying CG is not a Muslim. That was the point I was making.

Originally posted by Caano Geel: point: I'm sorry what was i thinking, there is absolutely no connection what so ever. Spare the sarcasm - and tell me how rights makes it into this picture? Again ------------------------------- Given the differences in religion and cultural mores of the diverse society we live in - that is not an appropriate lesson to be teaching young children. This a question of appropriateness rather than a denial of gay rights or gay existence.

^Sad and pathetic. Not sure which one more.

Originally posted by Khalaf: Can one call themselves muslim, while accepting these harams in the name of tolerance as Canno Geel is doing here? This is serious matter no? That is taking it too far imo. And to address your question - I don't know. I am not a scholar. But in general - my attitude is not to rush to take people out of the religion. Leave it as open as possible and just state what you disagree with.

^How did we get discrimination again? This isn't about gay rights. I don't know why you keep returning to this.

Children are exposed to stories in order to teach them a variety of things and to help model their behaviour. Appropriate actions, basic morals(ie. kindness, honesty), working hard at what you desire etc etc. This particular story is designed to teach that the prince choosing another man is appropriate and right. Given the differences in religion and cultural mores of the diverse society we live in - that is not an appropriate lesson to be teaching young children. This a question of appropriateness rather than a denial of gay rights or gay existence. The other comment of simply remove your kids from the school strikes me as half assed - am I, as a parent, not a relevant constituentcy that a school should listen to my concerns and objections? Additionally, public schools are meant to serve the public - and Muslims and others of faith are part of the public. Why should their concerns give way to this clear gay indoctrination? :confused:

Is there more to say? Xaar iyo kaadi flung back and forth. And strangely(or perhaps fittingly) many of its participants recognize the xaar and kaadi as such - but yet are keen to engage in the mutual flinging. All this and nary a word from the mods. :eek: :confused: :mad:

^Interesting responses. You're right that being nomads doesn't mean you can't/don't build cities ie. Ottomans etc. But the process of building cities changes the nature of the populace and transforms them into sedentary communities. The Ottoman nomads did build great cities(or greatly expanded them) but that building changed them and they were no longer nomads. That same process doesn't seem to have occurred for large segments of the Somali population if they did build the city=states in both the north and the south of the country.

Originally posted by Cara: quote:Originally posted by ThePoint: ^Some societies have a prediliction for suicide for a host of reasons - loss of face/honour and the prospect of shame and ignobility. The Japanese by all accounts are leaders in this. Talk about a selfish, self-centred, short-sighted, cowardly act! I have absolutely no sympathy for these folks - only for their loved ones who have to deal with the devastation. Well, it's all relative, isn't it? In Japan one would be considered selfish for hanging on to life when clearly the far more courageous and noble thing would be to take your life and save your family the shame and ignomy. Umm no. In any society what is courageous or perceived as such is taking a stand that is contrary to public expectations or norms. Or weathering through tough times and situations when others expect you to fold. If everyone expects you to commit suicide because of shame and you don't - that is courageous as opposed to capitulating to expectations.

Letterman et al - couple of questions 1- What explains the concentration of 'non-pure' cushitic communities in the coastal cities ie Banadiri, Bravanese etc and particularly their dwelling in the oldest parts of these cities(before the war at least)? 2- You cite the mention of Mogadishu, Brava etc using other more ancient names for them - yet the plethora of documentary evidence comes from a later era - one concurrent with the rise of the Swahili city-states further south. Why is that the case do you think? Why is the mention of the city states in Somalia so sparse before the rise of similar city-states further south? 3- Is it your theorem that because the Somalis had an ancient presence throughtout the whole of the Horn - that they must necessarily have founded the coastal city-states in Somalia? Or is there more conclusive evidence than the mention of a Berberi chief and Berberi speakers?

A number of the songs while good are not feel good. For that no ballads, slow songs, sad songs need apply. The following 30 second clip is my idea of a feel good song. Note: you need access to Windows Media player so it's a no go from work 'Caban La Ka Kratchie' by Georges Fordant If anyone is interested - I do have the full MP3.

^Che - People in Niger seem to have evolved - I think that can happen for Somalia too. Particularly since the environmental issues have grown to be acute. What is particularly hopeful is that this big change without the usual 'experts' and 'investment'.

New York Times By LYDIA POLGREEN Published: February 11, 2007 GUIDAN BAKOYE, Niger — In this dust-choked region, long seen as an increasingly barren wasteland decaying into desert, millions of trees are flourishing, thanks in part to poor farmers whose simple methods cost little or nothing at all. Better conservation and improved rainfall have led to at least 7.4 million newly tree-covered acres in Niger, researchers have found, achieved largely without relying on the large-scale planting of trees or other expensive methods often advocated by African politicians and aid groups for halting desertification, the process by which soil loses its fertility. Recent studies of vegetation patterns, based on detailed satellite images and on-the-ground inventories of trees, have found that Niger, a place of persistent hunger and deprivation, has recently added millions of new trees and is now far greener than it was 30 years ago. -------------------------------- Video Related Article

Originally posted by Djib-Somali: (from salafs, which means followers of the salafs or early followers of the prophets scw, so Salafi are sinonymous with Sunnist or the prophet's Sunnah observers). You have praised Xiin's qabiil - Djib - you will be forever in his good graces

^Too true - best thing to do is ignore the regulars until they get tired of going around in circles. It is already happening - a swift perusal will net a aurprising number of - "I can't dialogue with you {insert inane insult)". To me a hopeful sign that the cycle of madness is winding down.

^I don't get it - if you want a positive reference you butter the person up. His hectoring tone is thus unsurprising. If I were you - I would not put him as a reference.

^Some societies have a prediliction for suicide for a host of reasons - loss of face/honour and the prospect of shame and ignobility. The Japanese by all accounts are leaders in this. Talk about a selfish, self-centred, short-sighted, cowardly act! I have absolutely no sympathy for these folks - only for their loved ones who have to deal with the devastation.

Originally posted by Cambarro: PRI spokesman Joseph D'Agostino says for the most part, only Muslims have high birth rates. "It's because Christians and Jews are refusing to have children, refusing to get married, [and] having such low birth rates that the Muslims are going to inherit the Earth," he explains. "It's not anything the Muslims are doing; it's what Christians and Jews are not doing." D'Agostino says the future of the world will certainly be quite different if Muslims become the dominate population group in the coming decades. "I think we can see what life is like in Islamic countries," he says. "I think Christians know that it's a false religion. And we can see that the Muslim world is becoming actually more radical and, in many ways, is headed backwards into its barbaric phase." Apparently the Chinese and the Indians are going to be swallowed up by the earth leaving only Muslims to dominate the Jew-less, Christian-less earth. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Taako Man: ^ Your parents supervision, care and over help is what shapes and forms individuals. When momma is at the local aroos or xaflaad and aabe is at the local mafrash. WHAT DO YOU EXPECT OF THE KIDS? They will parent themselves? Great. Barring that rosy scenario - at what point do you step up and take responsibility for your life? Or do you continue to blame your parents at 20, 35, 45 and 70? The key question is when do you become an adult - our religion says puberty. What do you say?

Whatever reality or lack thereof the video shows - the blame heaped on parents by some is amazing. These 'children' are the most privilieged people on the planet - with access to abundant food, health, education and opportunities. If someone is 15 and older - one should have some idea of what is in one's best interest. At the very least - have some idea that gang culture, drugs and dropping out of school is not in your best interest. And what lack of role models is there? Western culture is full of rags to riches stories and improbable success stories - many of minorities and immigrants. These kids are just losers in the fullest sense of that word and the time to blame their parents for the mess of their lives is well and truly over.