Pills and condoms? Ladies (and gentlemen) if you're going to talk about this topic at least mention all the other contraceptive available so that you don't mislead any of your readers. Mother of Zakaria, nothing is 'nasty' in this topic and to have a topic such as this one without the details would be real silly. At any rate, other than prepubescent children I doubt that anyone gets titillation from reading the words: condom, coil, pill or even abstinence.

Heh. What an attractive cul-de-sac! I wonder how many will try to drive right through it. Shush! Shush! Is that the sound of my guru's stallion galloping towards us?

LIQYE, I have thought long and hard about sharing my views here and attempting to present them in a positive spirit, but I just couldn’t bring myself to doing so. I looked at the scenario you put forward and my head was almost turned by it. But, the more I thought about each point the more the questions kept on appearing! You see, when I ask these questions I don’t do so to halt your argument or to expose your weaknesses for my own delight. I do because they’re the questions that present themselves to me as I chomp on your contentions! I could indeed write a whole essay on the subject and not include one single question in the entire thing. However, I would not know if I were on the right track unless I understood the positions of the person(s) I am debating with first. For that, I need to ask questions. If your argument is strong and watertight, I benefit! If it is weak and not well thought out, you (assuming you’re being sincere) benefit. Now, since you cut me off from my lifeline and banned the asking of questions in this discussion (I’m of course grateful for the exceptions you made to my previous post), I am left with no other option but to speculate and share my own reasons why I believe this to be an impractical option (based on my understanding of what you are trying to flog here). Here goes: It looks like I’ll have to bring my virtual weighing machine out again and see if this argument is solid enough to win the day. Those opposing Ethiopia (in the context of our discussion) have some things going for them. For a start, as your last post shows, there are several such groups. They all fought their own fights in the past but are now being brought together by the Eritrean president who is no lover of Ethiopia himself. By fighting all these groups in all fronts, Ethiopia is naturally weakening itself, which presumably will mean it will have less time to interfere in Somali affairs (or so the argument goes)! On the other hand, Ethiopia had had to deal with these opposition groups for a long time now (save for the ICU/Somalis in Asmara or whatever they’re called today). It acquitted itself well and is still (allegedly) the most powerful nation in the Horn. It has the support of the sole super power in the world and the indifference of all the other international big players (as is proved by the first’s actions and the latter’s inaction). It managed to entice various turncoats and their significant followings (not just in Somalia but in many of its own problematic regions). The only major and proper foe it has is Eritrea (a country of a mere five million people). The above is the summarised position of affairs. Now, I don’t believe that it is impossible to topple, destabilise or unsettle Ethiopia seeing that it has that many opposition groups and that these groups are fighting from a morally superior position. I merely believe it to be improbable, impractical and implausible. Improbable because Ethiopia has managed to hold off the bulk of these groups for a long time now and seeing that they have not succeeded in rocking the administration of Zenawi, one can only conclude that Ethiopia has been winning, is winning and shall continue to win these skirmishes against its logistically, financially and politically weaker opposition. Improbable because the coming together of these groups is not some sort of spontaneous revolution that would take Ethiopia by surprise! In fact, it is not even an open secret, ergo it allows Ethiopia the time to formulate its own plans to repulse any future attempts to destabilise it. Impractical, because it assumes that all these groups will be bosom buddies and see this thing through! If one looks at the case of the ICU and how it fell out with the Shabab because of ideological differences, even though they both have the same goal of ejecting Ethiopia from Somalia, would it be wrong to assume that similar cracks may also appear in the ranks of all the other opposition groups (if they have not already)! Still, my biggest concern here is in the huge leap that Xiin makes when he suggests that only by weakening Ethiopia will Somalia be able to finally sort itself out. His argument of course (and possibly rightly) is based on the opinion (or rather unproven fact) that Ethiopia is the driving force behind the Somali conflict. This concerns me because it does not take into account the centuries old doubt, mistrust and uncertainty that exists between Somalis themselves. It also underestimates the level of greed, selfishness and egotism that is inherent in most the current Somali leaders and agenda setters (including the ICU). Xiin’s (and your) analysis, at first glance, succeeds in accentuating the positive and underplaying the negative, which is not a problem if this was merely some sort of feel-good discussion. But, it is not, is it? It is an actual analysis (on your part at least, if not Xiin’s) of the way forward for Somalis! Baashe on the other hand is saying ‘let us sit down and talk’! His too is a wish but it does not come across as an impossible wish. You see when people refuse to talk, one wonders what is it they worry they might lose by sitting down and talking. Various Somali groups have had meetings and talks in the past seventeen years (in several African Capitals). The talks hardly ever made much of a difference but they also (for the most part) hardly resulted in any substantial losses for any of the participants. Now you argue that such talks can NOT take place whilst the Ethiopian occupier is casting its ugly shadow on proceedings. But other than reasons of pride, face or ego I really can’t see what difference the presence of Ethiopia would make to talks that aim to result in a cessation of hostilities between Somalis themselves. It’s my turn to give a historical reference: Lebanon! That country suffered from a bloody and (seemingly) unsolvable civil war for years. It had factions, militias and warlords who were much more deadly and strategically superior to any of the humdrum thugs Somalia produced. They had several ICU’s (i.e. religious groups: Sunni, Shia, Muslim, Drooz and TWO Christian factions)! They were invaded by two neighbouring countries (Syria and Israel) and occupied for years. But despite their glaring differences, they sat and talked! Not did they only talk, they agreed on peace. Yet, the country is still plagued by differences, it still has many turncoats loyal to either Syria or Israel and even one warlord (the Hezbollah leader) still can freely run his own army in a supposedly independent and sovereign country! Here comes my point now: I wager anyone to argue that Somalia is in a better position to that of Lebanon. The Lebanese still hate and mistrust each other but all sides have made it clear that the last thing they want or need is another war amongst themselves. They always seem to choose compromise over war. The Somalis don’t have such goals. It is not peace they want; it is peace on their own terms. When you give me such a farfetched plan of action whilst knowing how finicky and difficult Somalis can be are you surprised that I would consider it an impractical dream? One can’t be positive in the face of nonsense, saaxib. The idea itself is a dream. A possible dream, a realistic one too but, more importantly, it’s one that is impractical today. Now sitting down and talking on the other hand....... The other accusation held against the strategy I have elucidated involves hoots of wishful thinking or day dreaming, my response is simple if the SOL admin insisted that only posters who made absolute practical sense and concrete plans for far reaching visions could post in the politics section, for a month, no one would post in the politics section for that month. The admin does not have to insist (the admin is a dreamer himself by the way). I am not sure if you got the hang of the idea of discussion, saaxib. It may be upsetting when people mock fanciful ideas or suggestions but it’s the way of the world, saaxib. Cheer up and sing with me: They all laughed at Christopher Columbus when he said the world was round They all laughed when Edison recorded sound They all laughed at Wilbur and his brother when they said that man could fly They told Marconi wireless was a phony, it's the same old cry They laughed at me wanting you, said I was reaching for the moon But oh, you came through, now they'll have to change their tune They all said we never could be happy, they laughed at us and how! But ho, ho, ho! Who's got the last laugh now?

^^ They all want the best for their children and try to provide them with the missing bits. In the west it's Islam and in the east it's education. The contradiction makes perfect sense.

LIQAYE, How in the world could I present a positive position on something I've already branded as impractical, saaxib? Still, from your post I sort of understand your argument there to be something along the lines of: stop crushing our ideas and show us what you have, if you think you're clever enough! For purposes of civility and because we have not locked horns in the past, I shall refrain from stating the obvious here. We have plenty of time for falling out and resorting to sarcasm or condescension. So, I am going to try to be as clear as I could possibly can and as upbeat as this discussion would allow (don't expect miracles). But before I shed my eternal caution and dare to dream, let me throw some questions (and a few answers that I've gleaned from the arguments here) into the ring. What is our goal here? Can we agree on it being: A free, peaceful, independent and united (at least against Ethiopian interference) Somalia. How will that goal be achieved? By destroying, disrupting, or unsettling Ethiopia! Can Ethiopia be destroyed, disrupted or even unsettled long enough to allow Somalia to get back on its feet? Yes. There are many divisions and cracks in Ethiopian society and the Meles dictatorship is only keeping it all intact through means of tyranny and oppression! There are also many resistance fronts fighting against Ethiopia and working towards unsettling it. If Eritrea starts a war with Ethiopia the possibility of toppling that country will inch closer to becoming a certainty! Why would these groups agree to work together and why have they not done it before? !!! Do all these groups agree on the need to unsettle or even destroy Ethiopia? Aren't some of them Ethiopians themselves? !!! Does Eritrea's quarrel with Ethiopia extend beyond fighting for anything more than some disputed borders? !!! Do the ONLF boys want a union with Somalia? !!! Do Somaliland and Puntland consider it in their interests to sit by and watch these attempts at toppling Ethiopia? !!! How and why will the rest of Somalia get itself involved in something they clearly consider to be a southern problem (through their inaction if not their words)? !!! Is the goal really the resurrection of Somalia or is it the destruction of Ethiopia? !!! To follow on from the last question: what guarantees are there that those fighting will not obsesses with the idea of destroying Ethiopia (like what happened to the Barre government in the past) and they'll forget about saving Somalia (like what happened to the Barre government in the past)? In other words, when the Ethiopian elephant is brought down what is there to stop the vultures from returning to fight amongst themselves again? !!! ------------------------------------------------- Now that I got this off my chest I can happily indulge myself and join Xiin in his speculation. I don't think I would ever find it practical of course but I suppose I'll have to focus all my positive energy on the point of it not being impossible. Watch this space. Ps If I appear sarcastic to you, rest assured that it's not intentional. I'm just naturally smug. Pps Kindly note that I've got a bleeding lip from biting it so hard in order to stop myself from scoffing at the film reference in your last post. I expect some credit for this mighty effort.

What is this? Were we not complaining about the rickety server just the other day! Is this really the right time to let new people in? I can't help being reminded of a people smuggler adding a few more passengers to his wobbly ship and shouting to all protesting travellers "It's fine. It's fine! This ship was designed to carry double this number". Lets hope we don't sink, eh! Ps Welcome aboard and all that...

Originally posted by Castro: quote: Originally posted by NGONGE: Practical solutions, my dear Castro, practical solutions. Ps I know Xiin was only presenting a hypothetical scenario; Still think it's impractical? Yes. What Xiin did was post a wish list of things he hoped would happen. Liqye followed it through with a very articulate and detailed explanation (though somewhat erroneous) on how he thinks this will be achieved. Still, sift through the nice turns of phrases, historical lessons and supposed cracks in Ethiopian politics and you'll find that there is really little substance there. Don't let me put you off with my customary sneering though. The ideas presented here are original and the analysis is tempting. Yet, whilst Liqye easily brushes aside Baashe's lets talk contention, he himself stands guilty of ignoring the million and one reasons that make this dreamy discussion of yours impractical. Tell you what, how about we make a list of known FACTS and hoped for WISHES first! Separate the two, agree on them and then let us see if your position and ideas are tenable. I am trying to take this whole discussion as earnestly as my temperament would allow. I hope we don't go down the route of arguing that black is white and white is black; because if we did, I'll only adopt a Socratic posture and keep asking you 'and then? And then? And then?' You already know Liqye does not like that.

Laqiye, Point taken though I can't promise that I could stop myself at times.

^^ I've seen it this morning and almost replied before getting sidetracked with work. You saved me from a long lecture about morality and human empathy.

^^ Now only us five know what this thread was all about. I am sure it will not stop the rest from speculating. Don't waste your time, people. I'll tell you all about it. Waxa la yedhi: the thread contained a revealing photo! It was taken sometime in the summer of 2003. It shows AY running around naked and then giving a piggyback to two short people - one was white and the other was a black bald man. Of course I may be wrong but since the author deleted the photo you'll just have to trust me on this.

Oh look! Another comedy thread.

^^ Wrong side of bed? I see the gloves are off, m'dear You're spitting against the wind by the way. Have we not been here before?

Practical solutions, my dear Castro, practical solutions. Ps I know Xiin was only presenting a hypothetical scenario; it's the other dreamer I was goading. If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. If turnips were watches, I would wear one by my side......

^^ Xiin baarixi bu ka dargay saaxib..not a big shock that you would agree with his wishful thinking there

Originally posted by xiinfaniin: The formula for a peaceful horn is the following. 1-Ethiopia must be defeated, and broken into mini tribal enclaves with warlords. 2- The Somali state must be resurrected, and revived. 3-After five years of a bloody civil war between them, the Tigrinya and Amhara tribes must be given a hand to produce dominant warlords that get orders from Asmara. 4- ****** must be reunited with the Somali republic. 5- Somalia must bring eastern Ethiopia in its sphere of influence after incorporating ****** region. 6- after about 20 years of creating new reality in Abyssinia, Somalia and Eritrea must come into agreement to share Ethiopia’s human resources to. As per the above formula, the horn region needs a war. The war we are currently having is happening in the wrong theatre. The sooner this war creeps deep into Ethiopian territory, the closer the realization of peace gets. A peaceful Horn or just a peaceful Somalia? At any rate, I doubt if number four there applies. I don't think the Somali people of that region would want to join Somalia (if they manage to break free from Ethiopia).

^^ LSK is te Super, Janitor and Caretaker of this site. He's a bit strange though. Has some crazy ideas about touching lion's noses! ps Has anyone else noticed that Neph and Lazy have been on this site a little bit more than is usual for them? They're as bad as those working in the Middle East (i.e. North, Hunguri, Dabshid and Sheekajacaylka). These girls either got themsevles nice little easy jobs or they got the sack.

Sounds like something written by a fourteen year old! Ah! Those were the days. ps Some of those African girls are well fit..

^^ Kewell will break down again. No Alonso, no wins for Liverpool. Kuyt plays well but he is not much of a goal scorer, saaxib. ps We could have beaten Arsenal 3-1 in that game we had a couple of weeks ago. Useless Liverpool strikers is all I can say.

Many more here.. A man that started wrong. Carried on being wrong and, when he finally began to be right, was murdered! Still he was a great rabble-rouser and had a wonderful turn of phrase.

Originally posted by Northerner: quote: We apologize the site you are attempting to visit has been blocked due to its content being inconsistent with the religious, cultural, political and moral values of the United Arab Emirates. What are you playing at mate? :confused: It is a dating site. Got a few Somalis in it

^^ I was hoping each side would view it according to their own leanings. I've given up on trying to understand Somali politics. Now I'll purely concern myself with ridiculing them all. ps ME, a borg? Oh the ideas, the ideas..should I sh-it stir?

At least they sent him back to rot in a British jail (and rightly so). Can you imagine if in their haste to act like a proper government they pulled a Putin on the Brits and insisted that this man be tried in Somalia? Firing squad in no time I bet. Lucky Jama.

To loud cheers and applause outside Villa Somalia, President Yusuf started his impromptu speech with the words "Mustafa Jama waa la qabtay"! He went on to extol the virtues and abilities of the Somali Police Force and to remind the public of the hard work and effort of his government. He said: "We are heading in the right direction and are slowly but surely bringing our beloved country back on her feet. Today, and with the arrest of bandit Jama, we have finally turned a corner and proved to the world that Somalis can (and do) play their active part in international relations. We have shown them that we do not tolerate criminals of any kind hiding in our blessed land. This is why we promptly removed the terrorists from our midst last December and are still eradicating all other warlords, terrorists and criminals from our towns and cities. This is also to show you, the people, that we mean business and will not stand for any criminals ruining our peace and running amok in our cities. Today is a great day. Jama has been arrested and two nations can finally sleep easy." In a telephone conversation from Asmara with several news organisations, Sh. Sharif Sh. Ahmed said the following: " We understand that the prayers of the British Officer's family has been answered and that Jama the criminal has been arrested (may Allah forgive him). Not surprisingly, we also hear that the people that allowed our beloved Somali soil to be defiled and tainted with Ethiopian boots, are claiming that THEY are the ones that caught Jama! I would like to make it clear that WE, the resistance army are the ones that caught Jama. After all, our record speaks for itself; have we not pacified all of Somalia in our time in power? Have we not been fair and just with all we met with and in all our dealings? Unlike those TFG traitors, we have not embraced the enemy. We also have not shook hands with killers, murderers and warlords. When we ruled Somalia, we tried to clear it of all criminals and unruly individuals. And even now, we are still ridding the country of such individuals. I am speaking to you all to confirm that it were us (the resistance) who arrested bandit Jama and sent him back to the UK to meet his fate. We hereby warn all potential Diaspora criminals: DO NOT come back home with blood on your hands for, just like we aim to do with the filthy Ethiopians, we are going to send you back with your tails between your legs. You have been warned. Allah is great." In a speech to the Somaliland parliament, president D. Riyaale, had the following words to say: Gentlemen, we have arrested Jama! After months of investigation, search and systematic enquiry we have finally uncovered the bandit in Burco city but he fled to LA! This, gentlemen, is the main reason for the recent offensive on LA. We have allowed that place to decay with the criminals of Puntland, but to also have bandit Jama adding his considerable criminal abilities to that filthy mix were too much for us. As you all know, we have an understanding with the British Government to exchange ideas, expertise and to cooperate in criminal matters. We caught Jama and we shall pass him on to the Brits. All the signs show that they will gladly take him of our hand. This, gentlemen, is recognition of sorts. WE are indeed moving in the right direction. Soon, all our hard work and effort will bear fruits and we shall rid ourselves of the stench of old Somalia. Did you hear the TFG and the ICU both claiming that it was they who arrested Jama? I just hope that none of you chocked on their khat as you chuckled away at the temerity of that deluded lot! I ask you, people, hmm hmm, I ask you! When was the last time the TFG extradited any criminals to any other country in the world? Did the ICU terrorist extradite anyone (apart from themselves)? Indeed not. But our extradition record speaks for itself and cannot be denied. Bandit Jama is not the first and will not be the last. Now let us move to the second item on our agenda, the postponement of the forthcoming elections....." The president of Puntland ridiculed the claims of the other groups when he gave a very short speech to his local media: " Yes. I heard that the kid came to LA and I personally issued orders for his arrest. But the town was invaded by the Somaliland thugs and our priorities changed accordingly. We heard that he then fled to the capital and was arrested by our gallant heroes working there. In any case, this was simply a teenager who shot a female police officer when he was about to be arrested for some petty crime. I honestly don’t believe such a story deserves all this coverage. I prefer to focus on the liberation of LA!".