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Mintid Farayar

The need to separate 2 different debates

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Since this Forum's server eliminated my reply to another thread, I will repost it as a new topic:

 

 

Two different issues need to be separated regarding the issue of the Berbera leasing contracts.

 

1- Another government(Somalia) de-legitimizing Somaliland's elected representatives' legal right to enter into bilateral agreements with other sovereign nations. Can Mogadishu deny Hargeisa's right to enter into bilateral relations?

 

2- Somalilanders contesting/rejecting the merits of the deal (given the secretive nature of the agreement-the details of which haven't been made transparent to the public or opposition parties, the dangers it draws for Somaliland with powerful armed groups in the region such as the Houthis and Iranians, the danger of having a more advanced military force on local soil while Somaliland forces lack the ability to police these forces).

 

These are 2 significant, yet completely different issues. If we oppose the deal, we should be clear which one of the 2 arguments we are in alignment with. I say this only because many who oppose Somaliland's existence often use argument #2 to cloak their real objectives-the elimination of Somaliland.

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The forum has now habbit of swallowing things,

 

Dadka quluubtooda Allow uun ba dalacda,

 

Sometimes qofka marka uu dhibane iskuu arko, argagaxna qabo, xaajo adagna dhex martey wadanka kudihiisa, waa adagtahay sida uu cid uu aamino, Let us not forget on what happen but must forgive and able to reconcile.

 

I have read a lot of grief stricken and paralysed communities, stuck in limbo, the story of some SLers, that any Somali that wants somali Unity, Awr buu nagu kacsan, SOMALINIMADA uu wado waa khayaano, beentood waaye,lol, I believe there are true nationalists that want good for all SOMALIS regardless of their region,

 

This resembles very much on Some of the programs run by USA/Canada/Australia etc try to help ethnic communities which intern doubt any kinda of help, because of the past.

 

Slers must move forward, and could believe there are SOMALIs advocating Unity, are not NOT advocating your elimination , nor wants to use SOMALINIMO to cloak to deceive you, of course, I don't read quluubta dadka, maybe there are exceptions, that iska bukka meel walba laga heli, You should not suspect everyone, and it reaches appoint, that people can smell your irrational fear, that does not have merit. Kacaankii iyo waxa ka danbeeyey, dad kaa dhib badan baa jira.

 

Somali government and the civil war that followed, Most SOMALIS took part, and were involving in creating the hell.

 

Dadkiina dhinaca ka raaca, and my final word is "TUUSI luquntaada", no one wants to harm or is able to harm you.

 

On the above two issues, you are correct, there are two issues, and they converge on one result,, but can one be against the deal based on the two above issues?

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Maakhiri1,

 

To answer your last question above, Yes, it's possible to be against the agreements from the perspective of both listed arguments. However, the majority opposing it subscribe to one or the other of the 2 arguments, not both simultaneously. A thorough reading of most opposition opinions on this Forum makes that clear to all.

 

As for your larger point regarding an irrational fear, it's a rather weak analysis to equate Somaliland's existence as a governing construct with a superstitious fear of their fellow Somalis, whether from the South, Ethiopia, or Djibouti. To reverse your logic, this fear you speak of applies accurately to the hold-outs in peripheral communities at the edges of Somaliland, such as the community your 'screen name of Maakhiri' origates from.

 

Yet, how do you explain Somaliland's existence and forward progress(while limited by developed world standards) in almost 3 decades with a divided political elite fighting for governing power(like most other functioning, democratic entities) , meager resources, and neighbors bent on its political destruction? The answer to this question is willfully ignored by those against Somaliland politically such as yourself(by your own admission). Could it be that a majority of the public buys into the Somaliland concept, as well as seeing the alternative with 'federal construct' after 'federal construct' failing politically in 'Somalia' even with sophisticated international backers putting 'government' after 'government' together in Mogadishu? Little by little, even the most die-hard anti-Somaliland elements in the peripheral communities(within Somaliland) are beginning to make their peace with SL and opening negotiations on integrating into the Somaliland project.

 

So, it's been 26 years+ since the fall of Siyaad. Somaliland as a political entity is almost as old as the unified Somali Republic (which lasted on paper politically till early 1991).

Look at the pattern of history during that time -

Which is more likely

1)That Somaliland as a political entity disappears into the larger 'Somalia' or

2)That Somaliland continues its almost complete expansion into its claimed territory of the former British Somaliland?

 

I leave that to the minds of serious political scholars in the Somali family.

 

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galbeedi   

Maakhiri1 touched little bit about your insinuations that somehow we want the elimination of Somaliland by opposing the Berbera base. If my memory serves better, the take over of Berbers port by DWP was raised in the spring or early summer. At that time , I was one of those who welcomed the modernizing of the port and , also mentioned the oil terminal and other infrastructure Dubai port did in Djibouti. In their effort to sweeten the deal they promised roads and other infrastructure developments. According to some business analysts, "The 30-year contract won by Dubai Ports World will help break up Djibouti’s monopoly on land-locked Ethiopia’s freight and, if it works out, will prove to be economically very lucrative for Somaliland". That was the main reason we welcomed the expansion and development of the Berbera port.

 

Also, for the last few years Somaliland entered many business and bilateral agreements with different companies and countries, and as far as I am concerned, no one raised any issues. The reason issue # 1, came on the debate was Somaliland was introducing a foreign war to the Somali shores. We Somalis have enough wars managed and led by foreign troops, and we have no intention of bringing another religion based and deadly war of the middle east to Somaliland.

 

Now as you said let us concentrate Issue #2 and the base.

 

The main objections of the base by most people is the war in Yemen. The Yemeni coast is at stone's throw from the coastal regions of Somaliland. People in Lughaya, Saylac and Berbera are very close neighbors of Yemen. If the Somaliland administration want to push this issue, it must provide all the necessary documents to the parliament and the opposition to study. I have never seen a draft agreement that needs to be studied and scrutinized being signed by parliament before it's conclusion.

 

Even Sacad Ali Shire, the Somaliland foreign minister , and the only decent and educated man left in the cabinet---he is from berbera, and always good politicians come from that town, including Cigaal, Jaamac qalib, the first Somali speaker of parliament in 1960, vise president Ahmed Yasin, and lastly the Young and educated Jamal Ali Huseen undermined by Faysal Waraabe and Siilaanyo--said the negotiations were still going on. He did sign himself yet, and did not come at the parliament or to the media to push it's signing.

 

Another important aspect of the deal that forces many people to reject is the manner it is sold to people. If the people get some badly needed infrastructure or improvement in their future employment conditions , they would have accepted or tolerated the Huthie missile. All they see is the cronies of the Siilaanyo family making millions at the expense of everyone.

 

Mitid Farayar, you might be a young man who grew up in the diaspora, but those of us who were young in late eighties have seen something parallel in Somaliland that did happen in Somalia. In 1987 Siyaad Barre had a car accident which made him unable to govern and the day to day operations were transferred to the family. That family looted the money and abused the trust which led to the disintegration of the nation. I see a similar scenario here in Somaliland. As we speak president Siilaanyo will be spending one month or more in London and the tribe is telling as that he was in vocation. Since when a leader would visit a foreign country ans spend months without even disclosing his illness. Those of us who have senses have seen his incoherence or his inability to even read simple letters.

 

We see the theft of the public money, the nepotism and incompetence of his cronies, and last but not least the destruction of the public institutions. There is no election in sight, and as we speak , the poor "Guurti" led by "ma Naxe" Saleebaan Gaal will allow him another extension which will make him two terms without re-election. That is why we oppose these base and it's consequences. Somaliland is peaceful and most Somalis would like to keep that way, but peace does not mean the absence of war, it is a peace of mind in many different ways.

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UAE ambassador to Somalia recalled to Abu Dhabi

 

Amba

 

Mogadishu (HOL) - The UAE Ambassador to Somalia has been recalled to Abu Dhabi partly in protest of Mogadishu’s demand that the base deal that was signed with the Somaliland be halted.

 

Various reports indicate that the ambassador Mohammed Al Hammadi arrived in Dubai on Saturday after receiving instructions to do so by the UAE Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

 

Last week, Somali President visited Saudi Arabia on his first official state visit and the UAE-Somaliland base deal was one of the items on the agenda. President Farmajo lobbied the Saudi’s to persuade the UAE not to go forward with the deal.

 

On February 12th, the Somaliland Parliament voted to allow the construction of a base in Berbera. Somalia objected almost immediately terming the conditions of the deal illegal and corrupt.

 

Somaliland is a self-declared state that is internationally recognized as an autonomous region of Somalia.

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This Berbera base is a BAD decision, it won't be long before UAE starting kicking out all SOmali passport holders, hard working SOMALIs who supporting their families.

 

It was not long ago UAE send All Djibouti passport holders, which included many citizens from Somalia, had their visa cancelled.

 

This is nothing but small price to pay protecting the national sovereignty of the county.

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Galbeedi,

 

Besides simply repeating the earlier arguments I posted on why a loyal Somalilander might oppose the base agreement, what else is your post about? Yet, by your own writings you're not a loyal Somalilander, but rather a Somaliweyn proponent claiming to hail from Somaliland territory. It's precisely this cloaking/misrepresentation of real intentions I was referring to in this thread.

 

Your further attempts to muddy the field by confusing the charge of being anti-Somaliland with being against the people is noted. I never made the charge against you of being against the people, but rather of being against Somaliland, politically - proven by your own postings on this Forum. This eliminates you from the internal Somaliland debate on whether the deal, as it stands now, is truly beneficial to Somaliland - a debate open to loyal Somalilanders, but not to those who want to destroy the political Somaliland. So we will toss the crocodile tears about Silaanyo's lack of aptitude to the side.

 

Finally, while you claim to be a knowledgeable Somali about all things Somaliland-related, your understanding of 'Beesha Dhexe' is somewhat limited. Cigaal was from Burco, Jamac Qaalib and Jamaal Cali Xuseen are both from Hargeisa. While the 'HY' current Speaker of the Parliament, Cirro, is from Berbera. Don't let the clan affiliations fool you.

 

Maakhiri1,

If there's a ban on Somali-passport holders(Insha'Allah, there won't be one), is it the fault of Somaliland or the current leadership in Mogadishu who picked a fight with a stronger state? A stronger state which they are financially dependent on? Wouldn't it have been far more prudent for Farmaajo to diplomatically bring the issue to the UAE authorities instead of insulting them by attempting to get a neighboring state, Saudi Arabia, to pressure them? This is an indicator of the poor state-craft of the new leadership in Mogadishu. Let's pray for the sake of all Somali 'masakiin' that your prediction of a Somali-passport ban in the UAE does not materialize.

 

For both Galbeedi and Maakhiri1 - Don't take this as a personal attack, but rather an attempt to clarify what the real differences in our respective positions are.

 

Note to Somalilanders: I'm not defending the deal, the complete details of which I'm unfamiliar with - but, rather clarifying it as a debate that should only take place within the Somaliland family. My issue is 'where does sovereignty over Berbera lie - in Hargeisa or Mogadishu'? I think most readers know where I stand on that issue.

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galbeedi   

First of all who is Somalilander?. Opposing the session does not deny people to be native of that land. If the issue is that ,let the separatist debate the merit of the base , then so be it. say loudly that only separatists can debate the matter. I have brothers, sisters, in-laws, uncles and all family in Borama , Gabiley and Hargeisa. . . So, as you can see , we are intermingled (waan isku tidcan nahay), yet that does not stop me rejecting separation.

 

When I say you are young, you really proved me right. The Jaamac C/laahi Qaalib I am talking was elected from Berbera in 1960. He has left the SNL of Cigaal and joined the ruling SYL., and became the first parliamet speaker of Somalia in 1960, You probably thinking general Jaamac Mohamed Qalib, who is a native of Hrgeisa. Cigaal is buried in Berbera, and his family had land and businesses in Berbera. Jamaal might be from Hargeisa, but his ancestral home land is Saaxil. I could be from Degmo Laqas in western Awdal , but you guys identify us being from Borama.

 

On the Visa thing, I hope the Somali president and the government will have a backbone and resist these pressures. In 2015 when Dubai World Port left Djibouti after disagreements with president Cumar Geele, they tried these same tactics, but did not work. They Djibouti passport holders who used to travel through Dubai without visa were denied entry. They called their Ambassador to Dubai and stopped their airlines flights to Djibouti. After while they backed down .

 

This is huge test for the government . The UAE is not a country but a bank.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Precisely, Galbeedi. I'm making a differentiation between the objectives of those opposing the deal. Is one against the deal based on which government has sovereignty over Berbera or on the merits of the deal to the Somaliland population? The difference between the two is 'huge', if I may borrow the term.

 

I accept your correction on which Jama Qalib you are referring to. Do your homework and ascertain the origins of the other two(Egal and Jamal). It might come as a surprise to you that each of the 'Habros'(as you refer to them) settle in multiple cities throughout Somaliland. But we digress here.

 

As for the UAE situation, we will see how it plays out.

 

On a different note - do you honestly believe this administration in Mogadishu will be anymore successful in bringing Somaliland back to the fold? Or is it simply the Abdirahman Beileh connection to the new President that has you 'irrationally exuberant'? Farmaajo has a trusted circle of diaspora Somaliland unionists(primarily from North America ) around him, along with his PM and wife's subclan. Could this be a head fake to keep these particular Somaliland unionists on board in order to rely on their professional accreditations(since First-World professional achievement is in short supply among Southern politicians)? Farmaajo will need them as front-men to tap into dwindling international aid. People such as Abdisalam Hadliye filled that role for Hassan Sheikh.

 

As for Farmaajo, do you believe he has the 'temperament' and skills to deal with the complex issues besetting him right outside his bedroom door in Mogadishu, before we even get to Berbera 3000 km away? Or was his election simply a protest vote against the incumbent, Hassan Sheikh, in the same way Hassan Sheikh's election was a protest vote against the previous incumbent, Sheikh Sharif? Since you claim to have a monopoly on age, I'm sure you remember the euphoria that greeted Hassan Sheikh's election.

 

 

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Oodweyne   

Mintid,

 

Thanks for opening this particular debate and from those two observing angles, no less, specifically. Of course, as you could guess at, I am of the camp that hold fast to the notion of saying that those who never saw anything good from the mere political reality of Somaliland (which is the political description of the unionist folks) are not really the sort of folks who have any intellectual leg to stand on where this issue is concern.

 

And, if I am brutally honest with you, I consider their song-and-dance of theirs, which in turn is laced with crocodile tears about them looking out for the interests of Somaliland, in which they are arguing is compelling them to opposed this base-leasing deal, is, in my view, essentially nothing more honorable than the sort of argument of a man who wants to rob you blind and then in turn tells you about the un-necessity of having to secure your possession.

 

Hence, that is how I see when I evaluate the sort of guff our unionist marinade themselves with it. Particularly when they are telling us that we really do not need this military base, because, honest to god, they see in their collective heart nothing but sweet light for Somaliland, which in turn, have made them too solicitous to care for the well-being of our destiny. So that is that.

 

As for the deal itself, I was on the fence-sitting side of this debate, in-terms of how this issue was characterized internally within Somaliland. Least of all, I didn't had much info to which to based a judgement of any kind on it. But, recently, I did received some further intelligence as to the political meaning as well as the strategical impact in which it will be liable to have in so far as Somaliland is concern.

 

And in that sense, I am at the moment in favor of cautiously welcoming it. Although as you have said it, rather in an understating manner, the deal could have been better handled in-terms of the manner the debate in the parliament was conducted. Or the fact that the opposition weren't told sufficient information about this deal, in which they could then based their judgement on it.

 

Hence, leaving aside the matter of politically mishandling this deal, internally, I think, from the large-picture-perspective, this deal, coupled with DP World one is all to the good for Somaliland. But we shall see what becomes of the "endless argy-bargy spleen" of the current Mogadishu's government. Particularly whether they are in a position to stop this deal or not.

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galbeedi   

I do not see C/raxman Bayleh will be as effective on the issue of bringing Somaliland. If you have seen his interviews, he is very careful when he talks about Somaliland. He does not raffle any feathers. He might be a strong unionist but he is one of those who have dealt Somaliland while he was the vice president of African development Bank and throughout the years , he brought a lot money toward Somaliland. He is hard working , but he is one of those older generations northerners who are more bureaucrat than politician. Let me just say that he has a soft spot. You are correct about Hadliye.

 

To bring the land , you need to be sophisticated and calculating like us. I told you before, If the right guys get the power, within four years We could bring Somaliland without a fire.

 

On Farmaajo, everybody that I talked to says that he is not tough and does not have the deep skills that needed to navigate, but he has the will, passion and love of the country and the people. Like any other president who want to succeed, he must surround himself with able people. Besides, we the believers (ehlul caqiida) through our Islamic tradition, believe that the destiny of gaining power is through the will of Allah (Kursigu Samada ayuu yaalaa ee dhulka ma yaalo).

 

No one is expecting Farmajo to conquer Berbera or impede the business of that town, but major life altering issues like the war in yemen and foreign troops who want to engage another country from our soil is unacceptable. also do not try to be clever with words, you might self declare what you wish , but international rule allows Somalia to be the final decision maker on these issues.

 

Siilaanyo have already entered the union agreement and future discussions both in London and Istanbul in Turkey. That agreement allowed Somaliland to get some cash while pretending to be negotiating. All I am saying loud noise or empty threats from Hargeisa has no weight if you are a Somali leader fulfilling his duties.

 

Any way, as Suldaanka said, we unionists have high hopes, so give as time to enjoy this victory and see what the future holds.

 

Doodan halkaa inoogu soo xidh, waan ogahay oo qolooyinkeenan Landersku niman dhayal ku hadhaya matihin . meelaha SOL iyo kuwa kalaba hawlo adaag oo qaran ayaad ka haysaan oo Jamuuriyada soo difaaca oo xaga internetka ka difaaca amar ah ayaad qabtiin, e.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Galbeedi,

 

On a lighter note, in your youthful time in Mogadishu with which you love to wax on about, you must have picked up the 'walaweyn' habit of embellishing your clansman's CV and titles.

Abdirahman Beileh was never a Vice-President at ADB, but rather a Director. While a Director is an honorable, senior management position at the bank, it's a far cry from VP of the bank.

 

 

Intaasi wa iga kaftan, ee ha xanaaqin, sheekh!

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Tallaabo   

said:

This Berbera base is a BAD decision, it won't be long before UAE starting kicking out all SOmali passport holders, hard working SOMALIs who supporting their families.

 

It was not long ago UAE send All Djibouti passport holders, which included many citizens from Somalia, had their visa cancelled.

 

 

This is nothing but small price to pay protecting the national sovereignty of the county.

It is so easy to type this from the comfort of a secure home in a wealthy western country in which you are a citizen. I am sure national sovereignty and other notions would not have entered your mind if you were a poor man from Mogadisho or Baydhabo where hunger and violence are the daily realities, facing deportation from the UAE.

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Tallaabo   

said:

First of all who is Somalilander?. Opposing the session does not deny people to be native of that land. If the issue is that ,let the separatist debate the merit of the base , then so be it. say loudly that only separatists can debate the matter. I have brothers, sisters, in-laws, uncles and all family in Borama , Gabiley and Hargeisa. . . So, as you can see , we are intermingled (waan isku tidcan nahay), yet that does not stop me rejecting separation.

 

When I say you are young, you really proved me right. The Jaamac C/laahi Qaalib I am talking was elected from Berbera in 1960. He has left the SNL of Cigaal and joined the ruling SYL., and became the first parliamet speaker of Somalia in 1960, You probably thinking general Jaamac Mohamed Qalib, who is a native of Hrgeisa. Cigaal is buried in Berbera, and his family had land and businesses in Berbera. Jamaal might be from Hargeisa, but his ancestral home land is Saaxil. I could be from Degmo Laqas in western Awdal , but you guys identify us being from Borama.

 

On the Visa thing, I hope the Somali president and the government will have a backbone and resist these pressures. In 2015 when Dubai World Port left Djibouti after disagreements with president Cumar Geele, they tried these same tactics, but did not work. They Djibouti passport holders who used to travel through Dubai without visa were denied entry. They called their Ambassador to Dubai and stopped their airlines flights to Djibouti. After while they backed down .

 

This is huge test for the government .
The UAE is not a country but a bank.

Ask the international community where they prefer to put their money in- a begging bowl (Koonfuria) or a bank (the UAE as you claimed).

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Oodweyne   

Hello Folks,

 

The point that our friend, Mr Gelbeedi, seems to comprehensively misunderstand is that, the issue about Somaliland may be still up for grabs, legalistically, at least in so far as the idea of Somali Republic claiming a jurisdiction over Somaliland is concern. But, that as if itself, it does not mean, that, Somaliland's political action is something that is curtailed by that action.

 

And in fact you can ask any western's nations (particularly those great powers, like UK, USA, and France) about this issue. And they will tell you, that, in so far as their engagement with Somaliland is concern, they really do not take any lectures about Somali's territorial sacrosanctness from any passing government in Mogadishu.

 

And that has been their position all along. Which means, they will say and pay a lip-service to the Somali Republic's territorial integrity. But, in the political sphere of things, that lip-service act on their part doesn't stop them in dealing directly with Somaliland, regardless of what is the feeling the likes of Mogadishu and the government that is there gets to feel about that state of affairs.

 

Consequently, this way of separating the legal issue from the political aspect of this issue in regards to Somalia and Somaliland, really is the crucial aspect, in which our unionist folks (such the likes of Galbeedi) are determined to keep on insisting that it doesn't exist.

 

Even when the actions of those "powers-that-be" (at least at the EU and the US level) can easily show them how in effect the actions of these powers conforms with that way of deliberately separating the issue of Somaliland between a legal reality in which Somalia has still a standing claim on Somaliland on one hand, and a political aspects of it, which in turn speaks about the facts on the ground there, in which Somalia has no influence. Much less said about some kind of a ruler-ship (in the true sense of that word) over Somaliland. And this in turn, quite naturally, will in turn allow these "powers-that-be" to engage directly with Somaliland without the says so of Mogadishu.

 

Moreover, these powers-that-be will even ignore, if what Mogadishu says about their engagement with Somaliland is something they are not willing to accept, because it may impact in a deleterious manner their political objective far more than they care about any legal fiction that says Somalia has still some sort of standing legal case against Somaliland's unilateral independence.

 

Hence, that is why the EU's ministers come and go and in turn proceed to help Somaliland with her social and economical problems without taking any notice of what Somalia has to say about those bilateral deals.

 

Similarly, in the case of the UAE, the issue goes under the same script as those EU powers-that-be were following (and are following) where Somaliland is concern. And this in turn will mean, this Arab country, will simply try to engage with Somaliland, regardless of What the likes of Mr Farmaajo has to say about it. And if worse come to pass, in-terms of Somalia taking this issue to the bitter end, then matters will come down to whether the likes of AUE have some interest with Somalia in a proportion that is far higher than what they can get from their dealings with Somaliland.

 

And whatever that final "strategical assessment" may be. Or what side of the ledger that assessment comes down on it. Which means, that what is true is that the legal argument in which Somalia is peddling against Somaliland is not the main issue in which AUE care about it in one jot. But rather whether Somalia has something they want, in which its absence of it will make the her engagement with Somaliland less than the optimum it could be otherwise.

 

And, if that "assessment" (of political and strategical kind) in which the government of the AUE will have to do on this issue seems to them that Somaliland has much more to offer them than what Somalia could give to them in turn, then despite all the "heavy breathing" about how others should really "respect" the Somali Republic's territorial integrity in which Mogadishu could indulge in to their heart's content, the government of that Arab country will simply ignore the endless entreaties of Mogadishu's government.

 

And will proceed to deal with her interest as she sees fit. Particularly in so far as they think that Somaliland has something to contribute to that interests of theirs.

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