Richard Dawking mocked the Muslim World's intellectual inferiority

[Guje]

Thnx khayr, i appreciate it.

[Khayr]

Offbase,

 

Why don't you want to answer my question?

 

Here it is again:

 

By the way, what is the going salary for a Junior Troller on muslim sites? Any Bonuses and benefits?

[DoctorKenney]

Khayr;991048 wrote:

Offbase,

 

Why don't you want to answer my question?

 

Here it is again:

 

By the way, what is the going salary for a Junior Troller on muslim sites? Any Bonuses and benefits?

There really isn't anything I should respond to, regarding this troll. Everything he just claimed, I already addressed. And any future posts I make regarding this, I'll risk repeating myself. So what else is there to say?

 

He keeps claiming as if this ruling is still valid. I proved to him that it's no longer valid. I proved to him that this ruling was an exception made for specific people, during the lifetime of the Prophet. And that this ruling no longer applies. I proved to him that the woman first poured the milk into a cup, and then gave it to him to drink, but he insists that it's not true, and then he wants to insert his own bias into this.

 

So what else is there to say to someone who wants to deny the facts altogether? It's pointless. It's proof that he has no interest in getting out the truth, but is only getting a kick out of discussing this topic. I've given him Quranic verses, tafsirs, authentic hadiths, fatwas, and the opinions of many different Sahabi regarding this issue, who completely agree with me, but Allyourbase wants to dismiss this. He's bankrupt here. Here's another link that goes into further detail regarding this topic than I ever had:

 

http://www.answering-christianity.com/shamoun-nursing.htm#Why was nursing of adults

 

That's all I have to say regarding this, this argument itself has been refuted several years ago.

[Miyir]

As I said I do not care about the practicalities of this weird, messed up practice. What is important to me is the fact that Aisha did practice it and

that your prophet

ordered a woman to allow a man to suckle on her exposed breast.

 

You are a troll parading around on and rehearsing your Freudian fantasies. You shoulf be BANNED!

Why will he be BANNED? he disagrees your FAITH?

[Miyir]

Allyourbase;991024 wrote:

Haha, no I am just exposing some of the sick behaviour Arabs did and proclaim today as religion.

 

Dont be confused about it. Basically Mohamed ordered

a womana to breastfeed a strange man

to:cool: so he can become Mahram for her (weird, I know!) and she did. Later on Aisha, his wife, used this as a ruling that general in Islam and not specific to the case of the woman who was ordered by the prophet. So Aisha would ask her sisters or their daughters to breastfeed any man Aisha wanted to have access to her quarters, a practice which the other wives of the prophet did not agree with.

 

These are the FACTS of the matter, and beyond this I will only be giving you my opinion.

 

.

We are all human some of us have a KINKY side nothing to be ashamed or offended.

[Allyourbase]

double p

[Allyourbase]

DoctorKenney;991050 wrote:

There really isn't anything I should respond to, regarding this troll. Everything he just claimed, I already addressed. And any future posts I make regarding this, I'll risk repeating myself. So what else is there to say?

 

He keeps claiming as if this ruling is still valid. I proved to him that it's no longer valid. I proved to him that this ruling was an exception made for specific people, during the lifetime of the Prophet. And that this ruling no longer applies. I proved to him that the woman first poured the milk into a cup, and then gave it to him to drink, but he insists that it's not true, and then he wants to insert his own bias into this.

 

So what else is there to say to someone who wants to deny the facts altogether? It's pointless. It's proof that he has no interest in getting out the truth, but is only getting a kick out of discussing this topic. I've given him Quranic verses, tafsirs, authentic hadiths, fatwas, and the opinions of many different Sahabi regarding this issue, who completely agree with me, but Allyourbase wants to dismiss this. He's bankrupt here. Here's another link that goes into further detail regarding this topic than I ever had:

 

http://www.answering-christianity.com/shamoun-nursing.htm#Why

was nursing of adults

 

That's all I have to say regarding this, this argument itself has been refuted several years ago.

 

Why are you avoiding my questions?

 

They are really simple and straightforward sxb.

 

 

1- Did you prophet order this weird practice? (I dare you to answer)

 

2- Did his wife herself take part in this practice?

 

I proved to him that the woman first poured the milk into a cup, and then gave it to him to drink, but he insists that it's not true, and then he wants to insert his own bias into this.

Dude, why do you keep mentioning the cup thing as if that makes it normal everyday behaviour?!

 

Are you into this stuff too? [wink wink]

 

I stated before that I do not care about the actual practicalities of it. Whether she put ice cubes in the cup or put a straw in it for him to suckle on is not really that important to me, or anyone really, what is important is that this did happen and was ordered by your prophet, that is all I am interested in. And these are points that you are in agreement with, now your lack of a good comeback to my very simple questions above clearly show you are are at the end of your wits here.

 

But to actually follow your lead, and shut you up once and for all on this point I will humor you. How exactly did you prove to me that a cup of any kind was used in this freaky practice of yours?

 

What did the prophet exlicitly say?

 

Breastfeed him.

 

Did he mention how to do it?

 

NO.

 

Do you have any hadith that is Sahih supporting your argument of a cup being ever used?

 

NO.

 

You simply quoted a book titled Tabaqaat Ibn Sa'ad. The author of this book was born 150 years after Mohamed died. For you to say that this is proof is again being disingenuous to the readers, knowing that they wont follow the links you posted to see whats up. Or implying that you quoted Sahih Hadiths to support your argument. Well I did. And where I have provided two Hadiths that are Sahih for you read, you brought forth the ramblings of Ibn Sa'ad:

 

Muhammad Ibn ‘Umar told us: Muhammad Ibn ‘Abdullah, Az-Zuhri’s nephew, told us on authority of his father that he said: an amount of one milk drink was collected in a pot or glass, so Salem used to drink it every day, for five days. After this, he used to enter at her while her head is uncovered. This was permission from Messenger of Allah to Sahla bint Suhail.

(

Ibn Sa’d, Kitab At-Tabaqat Al-Kabir

, Volume 10, page 257. Also, Ibn Hajar, Al-Isabah, Volume 7, page 717)

If this was in fact the case, we would have read about it in the same Sahih books that have put the stories of the suckling ordered by your prophet. The lack of explanation in the Hadith imply one thing and one thing only, some breasts were exposed, brother

 

Please watch Sheikh Al Huwayni, a very prominent Wahabi Sheikh, also a student of one of your favourites Al Albaany, refuting your claims and stressing that the cup stories are Daciif, and the breastfeeding is done the old fashioned way:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-cNu1EOzAA

 

So the question is:

 

Can you bring ONE hadith from the Sahih Sunna or the Quran (the two authorities in your religion) that claim it was a cup that was used?

 

Simples!

 

 

This was to shut you up on this point but as I said numerous times, I do not care if the milk was served in a cup or a starbucks mug, it makes no difference to the fact that this strange practice was ordered by your prophet.

 

Boom!

[Allyourbase]

Miyir;991052 wrote:

We are all human some of us have a KINKY side nothing to be ashamed or offended.

Yes, thats fine by me. Laakinse to see the prophet of islam ordering such kinky practices and his wife defying everyone else in their practice is just not good news for our brothers DrKenny and Khayr and co I am afraid.

 

Notice how he keeps saying that the practice was abrogated and the the actual milk was had in a cup, assuming that if it was abrogated then its somehow okay. Notice how he never spoke on the fact that his beloved prophet ordered this poor woman to breastfeed a man, this he can not dispute. Notice that the prophet's wife went in defiance of all the other wives and practiced this sick ritual. He refuses to talk about this and is just going in circles about cups

[DoctorKenney]

Summary of my points:

 

1. In Islam, it's forbidden for a man to marry his foster mother, or his foster sister. So if a young baby boy was breastfed by a woman, then he is forbidden from marrying this woman in the future, upon reaching adulthood. He is forbidden from marrying that woman's daughters, and he becomes a Mahram to them. So therefore, it's permissible for him to be alone with her, and for her to uncover in front of him, because she becomes like a Mother to him. (He had to have been breastfed a minimum of 5 times for it to be applicable)

 

Here is the evidence for that:

 

Forbidden to you (for marriage) are

: your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters,

your foster mother who gave you suck, your foster milk suckling sisters

, your wives' mothers, your step daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom you have gone in - but there is no sin on you if you have not gone in them (to marry their daughters), - the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins, and two sisters in wedlock at the same time, except for what has already passed; verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

2. Abu Hudayfah was a Muslim man, a Companion of the Prophet. He and his wife Sahla adopted a young boy by the name of Salem. They raised him, and considered him their own son. After some time, direct adoption was forbidden in Islam. You could sponsor an orphan, but you couldn't adopt him and give him your surname. So Sahla complained about this to the Prophet. She didn't like that her husband felt uncomfortable with Salem (who was now an adult) being alone with her while uncovered. So as an exception, The Prophet ordered the practice of adult breastfeeding, in the case of Salem. This was permitted for ONE person, at ONE incident. And it was the exception to the general rule. And I already said that several times in my previous posts.

 

Here's the evidence:

 

A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Sahla bint Suhail came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: "Messenger of Allah, I see on the face of Abu Hudayfah (signs of disgust) on entering of Salim (who is an ally) into (our house)", whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: "Suckle him". She said: "How can I suckle him as he is a grown-up man?" Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) smiled and said: "I already know that he is a young man."

(Sahih Muslim, Volume 5, Book 8, Number 3424)

3. The Prophet later abrogated that practice, and it's no longer valid. So the practice is now forbidden, and it has been for the last 14 centuries. There are numerous Sahih hadiths and fatwas which say so. And there is a Quranic verse (Surah 2:233) which agrees with me.

 

Here is the evidence:

 

Quran 2:233 "Mothers may breastfeed their children two complete years for whoever wishes to complete the nursing [period]."

Sahih Bukhari Book 48 Hadith 815

 

Once the Prophet came to me while a man was in my house. He said, "O 'Aisha! Who is this (man)?" I replied, "My foster brothers" He said, "O 'Aisha! Be sure about your foster brothers,

as fostership is only valid if it takes place in the suckling period (before two years of age).

"

In al-Muwatta’ (2/603), Maalik reported that Ibn ‘Umar said: “

There is no breastfeeding except for the one who is breastfed in infancy; there is no breastfeeding for one who is grown up.

” Its isnaad is saheeh.

4. When it was indeed permitted, it was stipulated that Salem drink the milk out of a cup or a utensil. Abu Hudayfah didn't like Salem being alone with his wife, so how could he totally fine with his wife breastfeeding a man who he felt uncomfortable around. It doesn't make any sense. So Salem drank out of a cup, for 5 days in a row, and here's my evidence:

 

Muhammad Ibn ‘Umar told us: Muhammad Ibn ‘Abdullah, Az-Zuhri’s nephew, told us on authority of his father that he said:

an amount of one milk drink was collected in a pot or glass, so Salem used to drink it every day, for five days

. After this, he used to enter at her while her head is uncovered. This was permission from Messenger of Allah to Sahla bint Suhail.

(Ibn Sa’d, Kitab At-Tabaqat Al-Kabir, Volume 10, page 257. Also, Ibn Hajar, Al-Isabah, Volume 7, page 717)

And furthermore, it is forbidden in Islam, for a woman to uncover in front of an Adult Man who's not her family member. If she's not related to the Man, then she must cover her entire body except for her face and hands. So it is inconceivable that Salem drank out of nothing except a cup or utensil.

 

5. So the Prophet permitted this practice in this one case. It was permitted for ONE couple, as a general exception to the rule, and it's no longer valid. You can't take provisions that were granted by the Prophet and then claim it is valid under Shariah. And the whole purpose of this, is to establish the link of fostership with the person. Once the man is breastfed, he's forbidden to marry this woman and she becomes like a family member to him.

 

6. At one point in time, alcohol was permitted in Islam. It was later prohibited by the Prophet. So a few rulings did change during the lifetime of the Prophet. And this is an example of that. Is it permitted today? NO. Have you given me any evidence that it's permitted today? NO. So what else is there to discuss with you??

 

7. For you to disregard Thabaqat Al Sa'd because of the time lapse (150 years) but then you accept Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim is ultimately dishonest and disingenuous. Imam Bukhari himself lived 200 years after the Prophet, and so did Imam Muslim. And then you want to claim that Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari are the only two valid sources of Hadith, and that is a lie. There are many sources of Hadith, what matters is their authenticity. And only a small minority of Hadiths actually come from Sahih Bukhari. There are literally dozens of Hadith volumes, and all of them contained authentic narrations.

 

8. I provided two links regarding this issue, which go into far greater detail than me. This is for any Muslims reading this post:

 

http://spa.qibla.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=4806&CATE=120

 

http://www.answering-christianity.com/shamoun-nursing.htm#Why

 

9. All Four Schools of Law, and all of the Scholars prohibit feeding a child after the age of 2 years old. Once the child is 2 years old, or 2.5 years old, then you're no longer allowed to breastfeed him

 

 

There are no further points for me to bring up. I discussed everything I needed to discuss. I summarized all the points. I provided conclusive evidence that this practice of adult breastfeeding doesn't exist in Islam anymore. It was a temporary ruling, for a temporary period.

 

And any other points that needed to be addressed, can be found in the links I provided.

 

Checkmate saaxib. There's nothing else for me to bring up here. I addressed everything I needed to. You clearly don't care about finding out about the truth, because no neutral human-being would complain about a law that doesn't even apply anymore. It's no longer valid.

 

Your arrogance regarding this is unbelievable. You're speaking in a mocking tone, you are behaving disrespectfully, and your posts have now become insulting and mocking. There's no need for me to continue this discussion with the likes of you. I posted everything I needed to

 

And this is my last post on this issue. Anyone who wants to find out more about this can listen to the lecture of Jalal Abualrub regarding this, and click on the two links I provided.

 

Islam prohibits it. I don't believe in the ruling. The vast majority of the Companions, as well as the Scholars all don't believe in the ruling. It was valid at one time, for one couple, in one incident. And that's the end of it.

 

There is nothing left for me to add.

 

And Allah knows Best

[DoctorKenney]

Any Muslim who wants further information can read my sources as well as contact Waqar Aqbar Cheema regarding this issue.

 

He wrote an entire book about this.

 

And his website is http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2011/06/there-is-no-adult-breastfeeding-in.html

[Tallaabo]

DoctorKenney;990936 wrote:

Tallaabo, this is because there are Hadiths which outright forbid it. The Companions of the Prophet forbade it. And the 4 Madhabs and the thousands of Sheikhs over the last 14 centuries unanimously condemned it. So yes, I do believe it's not permitted.

What are these Hadiths?

[Allyourbase]

This man is really beyond reason. He had the time to write (or perhaps copy) that huge wall of text but no time to answer two very short and simple questions. Notice how he is avoiding the Aisha subject, which would simply ruin his logic, as he is claiming that it is agreed upon by all 'non obscure' muslim Sheikhs. He went to the troubles of naming some of them, namely Ibn Taymiyah and Al Albaany as an example of a trustworthy Sheikhs. Unbeknown to him, both Ibn Taymiyah and Al Albaany agree to the existence of Breastfeeding of grown men, accepted this practice and stated how Aisha, the beloved wife of the prophet did indeed take part in it.

 

Then he started to Fatwa Shop and googling other opinions that agree with his views.

 

So to put it simply he produced the names of two sheikhs that he agreed were an authority in Islam.

 

I provided their consent to this practice.

 

He then ran to find other views that agree with him. Which anyone can, you yourself said how it was possible to find someone condoning homosexuality in Islam.

 

I would then provide many Sahih Hadiths that document the practice in Islam and how the prophet of islam and his wife were great supporters for it.

 

He brought a book by Ibn Saad, a non Sahih book of history to explain how the breasts were actually milked into a cup WHICH IS NOT WHAT WE WERE DISCUSSING And acting as though drinking human milk by grown men is NORMAL.

 

So dude, man up and answer my simple questions:

 

1- Do you dispute the fact that the prophet of Islam order a woman to breastfeed a grown man with a beard despite her exclamation?

 

2- Do you dispute that his wife, the beloved Aisha continued the practice to allow men not related to her access to her quarters?

 

3- Do you dispute the fact that your own Sheikhs, Ibn Taymiyyah and Al Albaani are supporters of this particular ruling and its existance?

 

4- Do you have any Sahih hadiths that support your view of the use of a cup in this weird ritual? [optional]

 

5- What is your personal opinion on this practice? Beyond these religious texts, what is your personal view on this? What was the need that forced the prophet to make such bizarre rulings? [optional]

 

 

Notice everyone how he will come back with yet an other wall of text [probably edited from other sources as he was caught earlier in the thread] and totally avoid answering these simple questions.

 

 

I said this before sxb, checkmate

[Allyourbase]

Tallaabo;991077 wrote:

What are these Hadiths?

 

There are non, he will only bring you Fatwas that discuss other questions after sneakily omitting the questions, or unrelated verses from the Quran discussing the normal breastfeeding of a mother to her son and not this monsterosity.

 

Please note that it is documented that Aisha the prophet's most beloved wife did indeed practice this.

[DoctorKenney]

Everything you've asked I already addressed.....and anything I allegedly never addressed, can be found in the links I provided

 

In fact, the link I provided actually references a 300 page book which goes into deep detail regarding this, and it answers all of the claims of those who have objections.

 

I posted the references for everyone to see.

 

Click on the links, and read them for yourself. Then download the PDF copy of the 300 page book which gives plenty of evidences in my favour

 

www.let me turn the tables.com

 

P.S. Indeed, Sheikh Ibn Taymiyah and Albaani and Aisha did get it wrong sometimes.

 

They were human and they did make mistakes sometimes

 

End of discussion

[DoctorKenney]

And BTW......constantly rehashing the same arguments doesnt count as a legitimate response.

 

You lazily refer to opinions which don't agree with you as outside of the mainstream.

 

I provided evidence that the MAINSTREAM agrees almost unanimously (with a few exceptions) that this practice is forbidden

 

Checkmate.

 

And if you have any more questions regarding this, feel free to visit those links

 

And Allah knows best