If Somalia is divisible so is Somaliland

[Abtigiis]

Indeed, I am happy to exhaust this line of argument. You are no more a rebel, but others have rebelled against your clan. Is this part of the new reality, new parameters for consideration then? What hasn't changed also is how the world perceives Somalia and the issue of international legitimacy. It is a front where you still remain a rebel. The world knows you as the "self-declared" so and so, and you will remain "self-declared" - a product of self-delusion, until such time the Somalia you think is dead comes from its convulsion and claims what belongs to her. SNM avarice is not a sufficient condition for dismembering a soverign country.

 

If Somaligalbeed people are given a platform to determine who they want to be, there is little doubt there will only be one outcome. If the same is granted to Somaliland, there is little doubt, only extremist SNM elements will vote for secession.

[Qodax Qorax]

Abti, perception's are the effect of the illusions we tend to create. And eventually those perceptions will change when experiences(or illusions ) of people correspond with the physical parameters that we have set.

 

In short, you are right its a 'new' phycical parameter that doesnt correpond with the 'illusions' created, therefore the parameters have to be adjusted or the illusions have to be reconsidered. It's either one of the two.

[Abtigiis]

There is no need to be philosophical about a matter that is patently clear. If SNM wants to establish a seprate homeland for its clan, they can have it. That is where my support for Somaligalbeed doesn't contradict with the Somaliland issue. I hope you see a consistency in here. However, the divorce must be done through mutually agreed process and not by a unilateral declarations whose legitimacy stem from the barrel of the gun. And unless you belong to league of the head-in-the-sand politicians like Faysal Ali Waraabe, you will not deny that SSC people are unionists; Awdalites are so, and significant number from the clan usually associated with SNM will vote for union if there is a free and fair atmosphere where all options are presented to them. It is not giving an option and alternative to call elders to a conference hall and ask them to choose between "freeedom" which is associated with gooni-isu-taag and "union" which is associated with aerial bombardment of Hargeisa". I hope you realise I am looking at this matter from purely moral point of view. If we to the arena of legality, it gets murkier.

[Qodax Qorax]

Abti, now you go back to the beginning again. We already determined that you are an Ethiopian and would not really comprehend the matters concerning Somaliland or Somalia.

 

But if you want to discuss its fine by me. Then lets look at the facts. SSC elders were strongly supporting the idea of Somaliland indepedence. In 1961 they were against a union with Somalia. And in 1991 they came with the idea of Indepedance. Because they knew USC/SNM agreed to a coalition. But by calling for a independant Somaliland, they could break that alliance. So term of "Unionist" is very fluid. Because eventually SSC is a minoriy in Somaliland, and withing a union they are a minority sandwich between USC and SNM. So, today Unionist are tomorrow's unilaterlist.

 

wax fahan, abti. Somali politics is much more complex and difficult to understand then the Ethiopian you are used to, where you have had the same position(against Xabashi) the past centuries. in Somalia coalitions change, ideologies change(todays socialist, is tomorrow's clanist), even goverments and kingdoms change(yesterday's clan kingdom is today's minority). Some even change from clan( from clan X becoming clanY).

Very diffrent from Ethiopia.

 

That's why Somali Ethiopians have lost in Somalia. Because they were used for other people's agenda and not used to this dynamic politics.

 

Abti, its better for you to stay with Ethiopia, its less fatique then Somalia.

[Abtigiis]

wax fahan, abti. Somali politics is much more complex and difficult to understand then the Ethiopian you are used to, where you have had the same position(against Xabashi) the past centuries. in Somalia coalitions change, ideologies change(todays socialist, is tomorrow's clanist), even goverments and kingdoms change(yesterday's clan kingdom is today's minority). Some even change from clan( from clan X becoming clanY).

Very diffrent from Ethiopia.

If this is not going to win the best baloney of the year award as we close 2010, I don't know whatelse will.

 

Which of Somalia's politics is complicated to grasp? The fleeting clan alliances issue? Who doesn't know that? By the way, you are raping history when you say SSC elders come up with the idea of 'independence' in 1991; and going by the same clan history of Somalia, SSC elders would never have preferred to be part of a set-up where they will be a miserable minority, when they have mighty cousins to the South. So, I don't have to refute a false history which is part of the new history of Somaliland. A history curved and contrived for maximum effect to fit into the secession end.

 

And by the way, we are talking about Hargeisa, young boy. I am not a resident of Dabre-Marcos in Amhara region, I know the insides and outsides of Somaliland saaxiib, slept in the wilderness of Haji Salah and Mohamed Ahmed villages, and eat the succulent fish of berbera. Markaa qof kale u libaxee! Or do you want me to narrate the intracies of the 'Binu-hashim' clan geneology and how the whole issue of secession come up?

[Qodax Qorax]

Abti, anigu waan ku aqaana, tariirkhdada waan hayaa, abtiyaasha waan isku dhownahay, meeshaan ku dhalatay iyo ku kortay waan la socdaa.

 

Laakin anigu shaqsi ahaan adiga kagama jeedo, laakin waxaan u jeeda hadafkan O'ga (ama D'ga) oo aad ku hadlisid ayaan u socdaa, maad fahamay.

 

Hadafkan aan ku hadlisid waa mid hal meel u socdo, meeshaasina waa dhib u socod. markaa sheeko cusub keen tii hore ma shaqeeniso.

 

 

P.S. Abti, I do understand its very difficult to show people the common grounds that you see and they share. But as long as people (you) but focus

on the conflicting perspective's it will become more and more difficult to find commong ground and eventually universiality. Therefore I advice you to put your energy in the lighter things of live, like Dhaanto or hal abuur. Hal abuurku dadka iyo dalka isbeddel dhab ah ayee u horseedi doonta.

[Abtigiis]

War ileen tan oo kale? War islaanta hooyaday ah baan isku dhownahay iyo SNM baan ka soo jeedaa isma galayaane, bal wax is qabadsii. :D

Waan garanayey kala guursigaa badan inuu dad meelo badan isaga kaaya keeni, on a positive note.

 

Anyway, I have never supported an "Og" vision or agenda. As a matter of fact, I am allergic to the idea of a separate "Og" homeland. I am a believer in the Somaliweyn concept, whose believers are nowadays the butt of clanists jokes and redicule. But, at least do you agree there can be new realities and parameters as early as 2011 or 2012 with regard to Somaliland issue? If Somalia gets a working government, Somaliland will have to sit and discuss its status with the authorities in Mogadishu, for it will not be possible to visit even Dubai for any of their leaders otherwise. Can you see how tenous the pillars on which this dalliance with independence is built on?

[Qodax Qorax]

2011/2012 will be inshallah the start of new and positive parameters for the people of Somaliland and Somalia and thus of "Somaliweyn", I think there will be some sort of compromise(in the Somali case: its more acceptance of reality). But only a real compromise will work and I dont think what you are seeking is a real compromise, you are seeking short term gain or win of your institutional Somaliweyn dream. But I am a firm believer that Institions should be there because they can build upon or carry out ambitions/ideals of people not the other way around.

 

Somaliweyn starts with Somaliyar, but if you dont even accept Somaliyar, then tell me how can you make your dream of Somaliweyn come true. The day you realize Somaliland and what it stands for is the fundament of the real Somaliweyn (not the one which is raped by Kacaanka and Jaalle), thats the day you will see your dream come true.

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

Qodax Qorax;683962 wrote:

Abti, now that you have come out of the dark closet and admit to us what you really are we can talk about your and my real idendity and our shared reality.

 

You are right as well, I am a rebellious Somali who has rebelled long against (the country that once was) Somalia. But that country no longer exist. It died 20 years ago and with it died the rebell in me. For there is nobody left to rebel against. The guns have silent and that war is over. You are right that a new reality has emerged, roles have changed and we need to discover how to deal with our new idendities. And denying others what has been denied us doenst have place in my new idendity, eventhaught many dont realize this but its reality.

Well said Qodax

[Qodax Qorax]

Abti, can you contribute your favorite dhaanto to my dhaanto thread, http://www.somaliaonline.com/community/showthread.php/16038-I-love-Dhaanto-Thread

 

Have you seen the appreciation post I made about you? http://www.somaliaonline.com/community/showthread.php/50200-Who-is-your-fun-in-SOL/page4

[Prometheus]

Somalia's borders are not etched in stone, as borders are not real things, but imagined things. And imagined things can always be imagined anew. Nothing is sacred. The naive nationalism of Somalis is fueled by wooly-eyed ideals. There is nothing intrinsically objectionable about secession. Having said that, I don't think it follows that secession is a game without rules. If Somalia is divisible, does it follow that Somaliland is divisible as well? In principle, any territory is divisible. When the Serbs decided to secede from the former Yugoslavia, they quickly discovered that there were provinces inside Serbia that wanted to secede in turn. This problem has been dubbed the Russian Doll Problem: inside one country (Somalia) is a smaller region (Somaliland) that wants to secede, and in that region is still an even smaller region that wants to secede (Sool, Sanaag). Some would object that it is not analogous. In any event, the Serbs could not tell any province that it had no right to secede. It wasn't even a matter of territorial legalities and legacies. It would be ironic if supporters of Somaliland's secession decided that it was acceptable to coerce, rather than cajole, dissidents within Somaliland into accepting their project. But sensible supporters of secession are clever enough not to use the familiar jingoistic and tribalistic language of the Balkans. The project of secession, if it is to be successful, must have common appeal for people of all provinces in Somaliland. It's a tall order, but not an impossible one.

[Abtigiis]

It would be ironic if supporters of Somaliland's secession decided that it was acceptable to coerce, rather than cajole, dissidents within Somaliland into accepting their project. But sensible supporters of secession are clever enough not to use the familiar jingoistic and tribalistic language of the Balkans. The project of secession, if it is to be successful, must have common appeal for people of all provinces in Somaliland. It's a tall order, but not an impossible one.

With this powerful conclusion, the fatuos reasoning of the SNMites must be confined to where it belongs to, which is the fetid cesspit! Thanks Promethues. But I think you also realise with a bit of cajoling from the unionist camp, Awdal and Salal will join Sool and Sanag. With a bit more of reasoing, moustache-oiling and appeal to Somalinimo, a sizeable number of politicians from the SNM clan will join the cause, if not initially, once they discover the tiny traingle is not enough to accomodate the political ambition of too many power and priviledge seekers. If Somaliland becomes independent country (comprised of the Berbera-Burco-Hargeisa triangle), we will not wait for two Gu' rains before one after another piolitician declares his tuulo to be part of Somalia with the predictable line "maanta laga bilaabo waxaan beesha caalamka ogaysiinaynaa inaanu ka baxnay SL, oo aanu ku biirnay Somalia". Prometheus isright, borders are imagined demarcations, but even more ephemeral when it is imagined in the minds of opportunit politicians who migrate to any land that gives them better feed.

[Qandalawi]

Meeshu waxay divisible noqan kartaa horta marka lahelo wax Somaliland layiraahdaa, waxaan jirin maxaa lakala qaybiyaa waa iska magac ee wax kale meesha laga doodo mayaalaan.

 

Somalia waa meel jirta markaa waxaad doonaysaan inaad kala qaybisaan waanu garanay taas. Idinkuse bal horta wax noqda markaas ayaan ka doodaynaa in lakala qaybiyo iyo inkalee, ileen hada SSC iyo SL waa isku mid, waa laba maamul oo dhul isku haysta lool

[MoonLight1]

A&T

...mighty cousins to the South........

uuuh, War kadaa.

[Xaaji Xunjuf]

Abtigiis;684169 wrote:

With this powerful conclusion, the fatuos reasoning of the SNMites must be confined to where it belongs to, which is the fetid cesspit!

Thanks Promethues. But I think you also realise with a bit of cajoling from the unionist camp, Awdal and Salal will join Sool and Sanag. With a bit more of reasoing, moustache-oiling and appeal to Somalinimo, a sizeable number of politicians from the SNM clan will join the cause, if not initially, once they discover the tiny traingle is not enough to accomodate the political ambition of too many power and priviledge seekers.

If Somaliland becomes independent country (comprised of the Berbera-Burco-Hargeisa triangle), we will not wait for two Gu' rains before one after another piolitician declares his tuulo to be part of Somalia with the predictable line "

maanta laga bilaabo waxaan beesha caalamka ogaysiinaynaa inaanu ka baxnay SL, oo aanu ku biirnay Somalia

".

Prometheus isright, borders are imagined demarcations, but even more ephemeral when it is imagined in the minds of opportunit politicians who migrate to any land that gives them better feed.

And after 20 years all we have is theories and what if conclusions, while Somaliland is standing and stronger then ever. So My dear Ethiopian friend you have a bigger chance to remove woyane TPLF from your land. Then Somaliland and Somalia the failed state to be united.