Could this be true for the political section of SOL?

[Coloow]

Assalamu calaykum,

 

It is tiresome, boring and sometimes insulting to our intelligence as people to read copy and paste tribal propaganda posted on websites run by the lowest of the low.

 

I read this article on Hiiranonline by Bahal and wanted to ask whether his analysis could also apply to the political section:http://www.hiiraan.org/2005/sept/op/Nur_Hersi_Bahal270905.htm

[uchi]

Maybe it could be true, you hear that most Somali's within the country are tired of tribal inflations, infact the problem is the groups overseas, that still have the old mentality. I guess the wrong refugess got their visas.

[General Duke]

^^^ What is this tribal propoganda? How many tribes are in Somalia?

 

Its laughable when people are trying to hide something they tend to justify things that dont make sense even to them. Somalia's current events are very important and as this is the POLITICS section, its important to gain a holistic approach of whats taking place right now in Somalia. SOL has given us opportunity to gain differung and at times competing and contradictory views, from SOMALIALND,M PUNTLAND, TFG, CIVIL GROUPS. etc, etc.. Latest news..

[Viking]

Introduced by Arab Sheikhs sometime around three hundred years after the birth of Islam in Arabia, groups of Somalis in a locality formed a confederacy to a particular sheikh who taught them Islam. They became his “Xer†commonly referred to as the “Xertii Sheekh Hebel†– The Religious Confederacy of Sheikh so and so. Given enough time, such confederacies developed into full blown tribes with their line of paternal ancestry adjusted to go back to the Sheikh himself and instead of “xerti Sheekh Hebel†it became “reer Hebelâ€. There is a simple prove for this: The average line of ancestry (abtiris) is 20 grandfathers to the Sheikh. The average life span in those days was not more than 60 years. Therefore, the ancestral lineage or tribe is only 1200 years old. But Somalis existed in the Horn of Africa for the last 5000 years evidenced by the recorded trade and interactions with the Phoenicians, Ancient Egyptians, the Chinese, and Indians etc. way before the Christian era. Without belittling the influence of Arabs and the relationship with Arabia, the fact that Somalis have a distinct language and an idiosyncratic physical feature that endured over the ions is a clear indication that Somalis are a race onto itself parallel to the Arab race.

Caaqil,

Although true, most Somalis will not accept this because it shakes the foundation they have formed within their own clans (and sub-clans) in the last few centuries.

 

Detestable as it is, (and even somewhat ironical) Somalis don't have a common asabiya similar to that of the Arab tribes; the clan has taken the role of the tribe.

[NASSIR]

^^

 

And clan is a family and only a family. Good article

[Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar]

Salaan...

 

Introduced by Arab Sheikhs sometime around three hundred years after the birth of Islam in Arabia, groups of Somalis in a locality formed a confederacy to a particular sheikh who taught them Islam. They became his “Xer†commonly referred to as the “Xertii Sheekh Hebel†– The Religious Confederacy of Sheikh so and so. Given enough time, such confederacies developed into full blown tribes with their line of paternal ancestry adjusted to go back to the Sheikh himself and instead of "xerti Sheekh Hebel" it became “reer Hebelâ€. There is a simple prove for this: The average line of ancestry (abtiris) is 20 grandfathers to the Sheikh

One idea we Soomaalis equally fail--or deliberately trying to subdue--to fathom is that all those large clans we find ourselves in today were never from one father figure, and thus they formed a united alliance in the last 700 years to combat other likewise amalgamating and emerging grand coalitions. It finally rested on four or five grand federated clans.

 

Since then Soomaalis came up with fanciful and very mythical "father figures" that they descended from, which, to this day, can't be minimally comprehensible. Those nonsensical offshoots like Sab, Irir, Samaale, etc, are only something bordering a child's fairy tales, not what sensible people today would buy.

 

Clans were/are political "alliance," whose destiny to survive was to form that alliance otherwise they would have been wiped from the face of competing "alliance" tribes, as it happened to some. Also we see today some of what I mentioned above finely in process. Those clans who opted out not to belong to a central, federated grand clan--we know what is happening to some of them. They were/are persecuted and harassed, called names and are mythogolized to descent from some God-knows-only people.

 

There was a famous clan that today few Soomaalis can attest to hear it, but were powerful in their time. So powerful in fact they ruled a junk of what is Soomaaliya now and almost united the country, and are now almost are unheard of, save some few existing in there and here only by name. Today, we've some clans who are part-time within the "alliance" official clan, but sometimes bluntly opting out from the "alliance" when it doesn't help or suit their political ambitions. It almost happened at shirkii Carta, and again happened in shirkii Kenya. These clans, whom I don't want to indulge, can tell us a lot about how formed "alliance" worked and still working.

 

It is in the interest of survival of fittest mentality that brought them together in order to survive in a harsh competing land populated by other large, similarly federated groups (clans) that with no indication try to invade their supposed territories. If we really look closer and investigate the history of these so-called large clans living today, we will know and won't be as obsessed to clans as we are now.

 

I know it may come unexpected shock at first to some clan-worshippers, however, the reality is only the immediate clan members of your respective clans are family related, beyond that is jungle and unreliable.

[Gabbal]

Introduced by Arab Sheikhs sometime around three hundred years after the birth of Islam in Arabia, groups of Somalis in a locality formed a confederacy to a particular sheikh who taught them Islam. They became his “Xer†commonly referred to as the “Xertii Sheekh Hebel†– The Religious Confederacy of Sheikh so and so. Given enough time, such confederacies developed into full blown tribes with their line of paternal ancestry adjusted to go back to the Sheikh himself and instead of “xerti Sheekh Hebel†it became “reer Hebelâ€. There is a simple prove for this: The average line of ancestry (abtiris) is 20 grandfathers to the Sheikh. The average life span in those days was not more than 60 years.

Therefore, the ancestral lineage or tribe is only 1200 years old. But Somalis existed in the Horn of Africa for the last 5000 years evidenced by the recorded trade and interactions with the Phoenicians, Ancient Egyptians, the Chinese, and Indians etc. way before the Christian era.

Without belittling the influence of Arabs and the relationship with Arabia, the fact that Somalis have a distinct language and an idiosyncratic physical feature that endured over the ions is a clear indication that Somalis are a race onto itself parallel to the Arab race.

Let us say that this is a hypothetical attack on two Somali clans that trace their ancestry to Arabian patriarchs; though some will go farther then "hypotheticly" and say it is a downright attack.

 

Let me start out by saying that that hypothesis in no way contradicts the beliefs of the Somali clans that trace their ancestry to the Arab patriarchs. Somalis are a patrilineal society and trace their kinship line through the father. That there was an existing race of "Somalis" or proto-Sams before the arrivals of the Arab patriarchs is common knowledge and hardly anyone will dispute. It is a thing of pride among members of two of the four biggest clan-families of the Somalis that existed before the arrival of the Arab patriarchs. No Somali will stand and say that the Somali race begun when the two Shiekhs came ashore onto the peninsula. If the article is responding to a question along those lines, then I have yet to see a person utter question.

 

That the Shiekhs came and married into the Somalis living in the peninsula is also widely know. That the ancestry of their descendents divulges and finds leaf in the Arabian tribal tree should, certainly, not be a thing of refelction as the Somalis and the Arabs are a patrilineal society.

 

 

Since then Soomaalis came up with fanciful and very mythical "father figures" that they descended from, which, to this day, can't be minimally comprehensible. Those nonsensical offshoots like Sab, Irir, Samaale, etc, are only something bordering a child's fairy tales, not what sensible people today would buy.

Macruuf, accepted patriarchs and political grouping should not be mistaken for each other. Sab, containing two of the six clan-families, and Samaale, containing four of the six clan-families, came into contact to separate the Somalis into occupational and linguistic terms. That the Sab are agro-culturists and Samaale pastorialists, that Samaal have similar cultural traditions and dialects that are mutually intelligible as opposed to the Sab should give you the clue. Sab and Samaale do not decide descents, its division is reminiscent of the American classification of white collar workers as opposed to blue collars.

 

Irir has roots in early colonial-era Somali administrative history. Some people believed that one clan was in too much control of state apparat. Irir was proposed and advanced by a select group of known men (even some quite famous ones!), though I won't name names, to make political grap for power. It was ment to pitch All vs. One.

 

As for as I understand, there is only one Somali clan-family that grouped together and formed an alliance. That is the large clan-family of Bay and Bakool.

 

Macruuf these things are very easy to research provided one has good intentions.

 

 

BTW-

 

There is a simple prove for this: The average line of ancestry (abtiris) is 20 grandfathers to the Sheikh.

I don't think I was but five when I was taught how to count my ancestry up to 40 grandfathers.

[Nephissa]

Originally posted by Raqid:

I don't think I was but five when I was taught how to count my ancestry up to 40 grandfathers.

woow, that explains mucho!

[Sky]

Raqid,

 

Speak for yourself. I don't believe those two tribes are descended from Arabs. That's bullshit. As in matter of fact we all Somalis are related.

[Xoogsade]

Sayid maxamed Abdulle dhab may ka ahayd markuu lahaa Nebigaa wax ii galay? Thought that was a little too boastful.

[Coloow]

Assalamu calaykum,

Gentlemen thanks for the reflections.

 

Uchi, LOL. I do tend to agree with you. Blv me bro, I have travelled to many cities on this earth and the picture I see is that tribalism is ripe in the diaspora.

 

General duke, bro, it is disgusting how we are subjected to read what the somalimedia on the Internet writes: Daynile, Garoowe, Midnimo, hobyo, allpuntland etcetc are tribal voices. To be honest with you, I see these websites are prolongers of the sufferings of our people: They are tribally run, their news is the fadhi ku dirir type.- hence my condemnation.

 

You mentioned giving a "holistic" picture. I hate to disagree: they give particularised, tribally inflating, hate mongering news that discards any holistic approach.

 

Before writing this topic, I met my supervisor at the university over lunch. We discussed as always matters pertaining toAfrica,. He is a staunch supporter of africa in every sense. He asked me to give him the names of websites where he could read about somalia/somalis. Naturally, I gave him SOL and a few other websites. He reported that he really enjoyed reading some sections but all in all he found that somali politics is tribal politics. He asserted that "somalis would never get anywhere if there are no people to question the very fabrics (tribalism) that has been the cancer of our society.

 

Viking. As usual you make some good points. Somalis hate to read the truth.

Ska du vara i stockholm någon gång i slutet av detta år? I så fall tänker jag bjuda dig på min disputation.

 

Maskiin, macruuf akhyaar. How could we change this silly system? It seems that so called intellectuals, wadaads and waranles nourish this sick classifications?

 

 

Raqid , 40????? I can only count 12 and blv it or not come 13 I am a biological relative of nabi maxamed (SAW). When I realized this LIE (It is pure fabrication), I confronted some proponents and learned that this was a socio-cultural constructions that carries alot of religious weights: firstly, claiming some kind of biological bond with the prophet ensured security and commanded respect: Second, it was the norm (every somali clan claims some kind of lineage).

 

Xoogsade LOL. The great sayid used the arab card maybe to solicit support against the gaalos.

[Viking]

Clans were/are political "alliance," whose destiny to survive was to form that alliance otherwise they would have been wiped from the face of competing "alliance" tribes, as it happened to some.

MMA,

Tribes have been essential in pre-Islamic Arabia in forming solidarity (asabiya) among the people. The group feeling that comes from belonging to a certain tribe has been the glue that has held together a people. This kind of group feeling/solidairty was abandonned in the advent of Islam and the Arabs united instead under the banner of Islam. The Prophet SAWS said; "Whoever fought for the sake of 'asabiya (partisanship) supporting one group or fighting another and died, he died the death of jahiliyah (days of Ignorance)."

 

Tribalism and the asabiya that is derived from belonging to a tribe (clan in our case) is detestable and should be abandonned. We seem to have inherited the most rotten qualities of the pre-Islamic Arabs and you'll see many Somalis who take pride in these false groupings just because it gives them a sense of 'group feeling'.

 

Viking. As usual you make some good points. Somalis hate to read the truth.

Ska du vara i stockholm någon gång i slutet av detta år? I så fall tänker jag bjuda dig på min disputation.

Forhoppningsvis sxb. MashaAllah, det glädjer mig när jag ser Somalier som siktar hogt. När ska det ske? Jag ska gora sa gott jag kan for att närvara men kan inte lova nagot ännu.

[Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar]

Samaal have similar cultural traditions and dialects that are mutually intelligible as opposed to the Sab should give you the clue.

Ii sheeg, what are "similar cultural traditions" they differ from other clans groups than afka, which isn't that much indistinguishable either because af Banaadiri and afka loogu hadlo Shabeellada Dhexe is much more closer to Maay than "common" Soomaali. Oh, yeah, they are beeraleey, but half of them are geeljire too. Oh, yeah, they are 'sedentary.' Aren't other plenty clans sendentary as well?

 

Sab and Samaale do not decide descents, its division is reminiscent of the American classification of white collar workers as opposed to blue collars.

Horta, I don't believe Sab and Samaale thing. Quite frankly, most educated Soomaalis do not either. (The "Sab" label, by the way, I mean the clans that are said to belong this group, they don't believe such thing of their 'father figure' being Sab. They have their own ideas where they originated from, which I don't agree either.)

 

It started a pure myth created by largely Orientalists of such days. And let's say if (and it is a very big if) I believed for a moment, what exactly does your analogy mean of 'blue collar' and 'white collar'--what does this comparison has to do with Sab and Samaale? Oh, one is elite? Oh, I see. Which one?

 

There is another thing. Those you consider to be in "Sab" group, there are some clans who call themselves right after their clan names Samaale. They call themselves Hebel Samaale. What about those? Oh, those were "originally" from Samaale figure clan familias and joined the Sab, is that what you would think? Then that explains my grouping of alliance, which isn't confined to one clan.

 

As for as I understand, there is only one Somali clan-family that grouped together and formed an alliance. That is the large clan-family of Bay and Bakool.

That is what you think. Exactly. Most clans are truly by-product of federation. It is there, but most qabiil-worshippers are emotional when it comes to this and can't face it what they were imbibed to believe all those years are not only myth, but downright fairy. It isn't something as easy, I know, and only those who completely liberated the clan shirt themselves from can completely look down and understand it. A lot did, and a lot are coming to discover this nonsense.

 

That is the large clan-family of Bay and Bakool.

I hate to engage into qabiil trivia, even if we avoid naming them because we are using regions which is the same. One misconception some Soomaalis have is that the "clan-family" only live in Baay and Bakool. They aren't. They live half of Gedo, most of Shabeellada Hoose, a significant part of Jubbooyinka. Since it is a two part of family clan, only one section dominates Baay, Bakool and parts of Gedo, while the other never set a foot in this sections. The other, in fact, live in Shabeellada Hoose and Jubbooyinka. Together, they dominate towns as widely varied as Baraawe to Baardheere to Saakoow to Ceelbarde to Daafeed.

 

There is a good reason behind why Afgooye town right next to Xamar is called af-gooye. I let you figure it out, and I am sure Afgooye isn't part of Baay and Bakool, is it?

 

 

Irir has roots in early colonial-era Somali administrative history. Some people believed that one clan was in too much control of state apparat. Irir was proposed and advanced by a select group of known men (even some quite famous ones!), though I won't name names, to make political grap for power. It was ment to pitch All vs. One.

Same like the Sab and Samaale. It is less subtle, but it is there still. Those never existed, and is as myth as that political Irir grouping. The only difference is Irir is a recent historical alliance, whereas others are said to be centuries old.

 

PS, hada kahor waxaa tiri Shariifka is from "traditionally less-powerful clan, has broken clan taboos associated with the usual order of things." Shib baa lagaa yiri. Hadana another time waxaa tiri those same clans that reside much of South are, I quote, "inaysan Soomaali asal aheyn oo ay yahiin dad Soomaalized laga dhigay waagii Oromada dhulka laga kacinayay." Again shib ayaa lagaa yiri. Wali marka waa socotaa miyaa? Shib miyaa la iska ahaanaa?

 

I had a hope that our brother wuu kala baran doonaa Soomaalida, and I still do, laakiin mar mar in lagu tusiyo dhabta ma xumo. (Af Maxaa Tiri heavily borrows from af Maay, including all those clan names. How can they "Soomaalinized" if Maay words are words themselves that are named most qabiil names that no longer exist in af Maxaa tiri? All those obscure qabiil some Soomaalis use are found still in af Maay. How is this possible? I, however, brother, thought you knew all this.)

__________________

 

Caaqil/Viking:

 

That was waxaan ka hadlaayi exactly. Qabiil is mostly based hearsays. If we only had many more who are enlightened about this, our country wouldn't have been in this dire situation.

[Xoogsade]

I guess there is a reason why so many tribes use "Hooyo" ama "Habar" as a unity instead of a "father" figure. I always wondered why the "Habar" or where is the "Father" for these nomads.

 

This elite BS waa waxa qarribey soomaalida. Hadda laakiin no elite sheeko sheeko, hilibkaa la qalaa proudly. Indeed humility is a learning process.

 

 

Caaqil

 

LOL, makes a lot more sense.

[Gabbal]

Macruuf-

 

Walaaloo waxay u egtahay inaan meel xun kaaga dhacay. Hadaan gaf kaa galay iga cafi walaal. Though I should point out that the quotes you dug up of mine are completely out of context.

 

Irir and Samaale are political groupings and I have never met an individual who thought otherwise. You concured. However, what leads you to think that the same is for every other clan grouping? That seems like faulty logic to say the least.

 

For example. I belong to a clan-family, and inturn into a sub-clan of that clan-family. Never mind the clan, but segments of my sub-clan are found all over the eastern Horn. From Mudug to Hiiraan, the Hawd as well as ******ya, Gedo, Jubooyinka, southeastern Ethiopia, and northwestern Kenya. They are that much spread over, yet every single one of my great-grandfathers is burried in the north/northeast. Two are buried in Qardho and the others in what is now Sanaag. Clan geneology alleges that the origins of our clan started in that part of the country and that we made our way down. That hypothesis is backed by evidence on the ground, i.e. the burial place of my ancestors before they ventured south.

 

You are free to correct me on this anytime, but in the way I understand it, the clan "family" of the people who live in Bay, Bakool, and other southern areas is the only clan-family done on federation. Federation that held both economic as well as politic appeal. They can have the benefit of belonging to a collective community while safeguarding their interess from the Faradheers.

 

How Somalis use qabiil is more then arrogant, but you cannot deem people's ancestry null and void simply because it is something you want it to be. A "fairy-tale" and "hearsay" because they don't confine to one's belief. How could something so organzed as an abtiris and your geneological line of descent be completely false and stay unknown amongst an oral and lineage obesessed people such as the Somalis? A famous saying is "there are no secrets in Somalia".

 

 

what exactly does your analogy mean of 'blue collar' and 'white collar'--what does this comparison has to do with Sab and Samaale? Oh, one is elite? Oh, I see. Which one?

I never ment it in the way you percieved it sxb. I used "blue collar"/"white collar" to show that Sab and Samaale are as seperated as the American classification systen. Either one can be the elite or the no elite, but ujeedadayda didn't even concern that.

 

 

Caaqil-

 

Raqid , 40????? I can only count 12 and blv it or not come 13 I am a biological relative of nabi maxamed (SAW). When I realized this LIE (It is pure fabrication), I confronted some proponents and learned that this was a socio-cultural constructions

I find that extremely hard to believe. Either of 12 names between you and the prophet or "proponents" of the system contradicting their beliefs. What would make sense on cyper, does not necessarily mean it makes sense in the real world.

 

SKY-

 

Speak for yourself. I don't believe those two tribes are descended from Arabs. That's bullshit. As in matter of fact we all Somalis are related.

Sky, walaal I am not disputing that all Somalis are related as we have been inter-marrying forever, but that says nothing about geneology descent. The descendents of those partriachs were born in the Somali peninusla, grew up there, married there, reared children there, who inturn married more into the population, until present-day where if those patriarchs were actually matriarchs they would long have been forgotton. But, alas because they were men and the people of that world are patrilineal, it is bound to stay as highlighted as it is.

 

 

Bishaaro

 

woow, that explains mucho!

What does that explain walaal?