Integrating Muslims in the West, what does it mean for the Ummah?

[Mutakalim]

Viking: Do not expend even the least of energy in replying to this lad. Aye, in his "salad days" he is.

 

أعرض عن الجاهل السÙيه **Ùكل مـا قـال Ùهـو Ùيـه

ما ضر بحر الÙرات يومـاً***إن خاض بعض الكلاب Ùيه

 

Salafi: Are you sure you do not mean "misconstrue"? Or are you going to warn me about the dangers of using a "dictionary". I hope you can appreciate the straw man (courtesy NGONGE).

[Salafi_Online]

*misconstrue

[Mutakalim]

O the irony! The emoticon you have emoted is the self-same emotion elicited by your reply. The topic of discussion is the science, as it were, of the integration and assimilation of Muslims. You, naturally, like to wallow in the mud by criticizing and castigating your superiors (I mean this in every sense of the word).

 

If you are going to criticize a scholar, then you must conduct an exhaustive and comprehensive research. In other words, read all the books the Sayid has written and see whether or not it is in accordance with the divine injunctions. You see, to know whether or not the said scholar is incorrect requires that you have an impeccable islamic erudition. To borrow J11's words, it takes a scholar to criticize a scholar.

 

P.S. I think the Admin has already warned you about "bad-mouthing" scholars, thusly your life expectancy on SOL is unfavorable.

[Salafi_Online]

Mutakalim as much as I wish to wrestle with you with words, really bro, it is a self-defeating process when it comes to the Ahlul Kaalam!

 

“To borrow J11's words, it takes a scholar to criticize a scholarâ€

the accuracy in your assessment is quite profound, but did you happened to miss this name†SHAIKH ‘ABDUL - MUHSIN IBN HAMAD AL - ‘ABAAD – “

 

do yourself a favour and open a brief investigation, entertain us with your intellectual prowess! inform us of his status as to whether he is a scholar or not! do save me from ignorance YA Philosopher king !

“P.S. I think the Admin has already warned you about "bad-mouthing" scholars, thusly your life expectancy on SOL is unfavorable.â€

I, and by no means do I possess telepathic dexterity, but I was sure you were going to pen such words, Hmmm! How this is relevant to you is beyond me! But inshallah I shall delete my post, save myself the trouble of offending you!

 

Its the 29th of ramaadan saxib, such futile exchanges are frankly a waste of time!

[Mutakalim]

As دريد بن الصمة so eloquently said:-

 

لقد أسمعت لو ناديت حيـا

ولكن لا حياة لمن تنادي

ولو نارا Ù†Ùخت بها أضاءت

ولكن أنت تنÙØ® ÙÙŠ رماد

 

This will be my last reply. We have derailed the topic far enough.

[Viking]

Originally posted by Salafi_Da3wa:

^^^ Please do not misconstruct my post again SXB, (this is not the first time) the intention of the post is NOt to attack but simply Draw attention to those who used Mr Qutb as source of dalil for their argument! in addition it was a heads up for those those who are urge to read his works!

 

 

This is a public form after all, exercising ones opinion is still permissable right?

 

I will leave you with this and hope you get the meaning

 

"addeena an Naseeha"(bukhari)

Salafi,

If the attacks towards Sayid Qutb were from you (assuming you were qualified to do such a thing), then people would give it much thought and look into your words. But copying what you have seen another person say about him doesn't give you the right to spread mischief on these boards. Am I the only one critical of your ways? No! Everyone (including the admin) was on your throat last time you did this. But it seems you never learn from your mistakes.

 

If you don't like Qutb and the others, just say so. Don't resort to saying that he makes things up to satisfy his whims.

 

As much as I don't like to engage you in these sticky issues, you leave me with no option when you come and defile a topic like you did earlier.

 

I hope you come to your senses and stop this constant attack on scholars!

 

 

PS: I didn't get the meaning of 'adeena wa naseexa' Please break it down for I am just a mere simpleton.

[Alle-ubaahne]

Mr. NGONG said,

This was a non-believer who criticised a religion. He did what non-believers often do. The “Muslim†reply was harsh, savage and probably not Islamic. I say probably, in case I’m wrong. Though I’d be surprised if his murder was confirmed to be legal in an Islamic sense

He used three words that I regarded very critical to the efforts of those who defend their religion in any acceptable means HARSH, SAVAGE, AND NOT ISLAMIC.

 

And in response to that, Baashi says this,

“Ngonge (if u don’t mind yaa Raami),

I’m with you on this one sxb. I gotta tell you Ngonge you are one of the few nomads in this site that I enjoy reading their thoughts. Simple, articulate, eloquent, and to the point, some of your posts are more than awesome sxb. Plz contribute more, if you would, in Debate section of the forum

Indeed, am very confused about the flip-flopping state of these people! Our religion is under attack round the clock, and none of them is acting in defense of it. Those who acted are smeared on their backs. No wisdom, no courage and no meaningful position. I can see the absense of sound knowledge in their writings, and thus they are running around and calling each other 'articulate, eloquent and awesome'.

 

Walaahi aduunkaan dadka qaarkiis waa wax lala yaabo, cajiib. Ilaahoow nahanuuni, adaa hanuunka bixiyee, aamiin.

[Salafi_Online]

Viking; i will say this once, and inshallah, I pray to Allah you will understand my words and where I’m coming from. Seems you have a good common of the English language, don’t think you’d have any trouble comprehending.

 

If you don't like Qutb and the others, just say so. Don't resort to saying that he makes things up to satisfy his whims.

Saxib reveal something useful for once! Do you disagree with the Scholar, (and yes he is a scholar known and praised for his scholarship, (he is among the senior scholars) Shaykh Mu’sin AlAbaad! is he not qualified to do such a thing, then why cant people give it much thought and look into his words? Did he speak from his opinions? why didnt you accept his speech? It is that he did not read Mr Qutbs Books, and he decide to take up a pastime in slandering? Do you possess knowledge which may have escaped him? Worthless speech is for worthless people(no pun intended) You my brother, has let personality come between you and the Sunnah, and what a blameworthy way indeed!

 

 

My Imam and beloved shaykh,

 

Shaikh ul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah (Rahimahullaah)

 

said,

" It is obligatory to punish everyone who ascribes himself to the people of innovation – or who defends them, or who praises them, or who reveres their books, or who detests that they should be talked about, or who begins to make excuses for them by saying he does not understand what these words mean or by saying that this person also authored another book and what is similar to these types of excuses which are not made except by an ignoramus or a hypocrite. Rather, it is obligatory to punish everyone who knows of their condition and did not assist in repelling their evil, for repelling their evil is one of the greatest of obligations." [Majmoo’ ul-Fataawaa (2/132]

 

do you actually know what is a scholar?? do you have any idea about what makes someone a scholar?or do you merely spurt words on the screen? I suggest you study up on it! in the meantime go to the islamic section in this board and reread the post "islamic scholars" do yourself a favour and read their bios then maybe you wouldnt use the title so loosely!

 

How someone could be a secularist and then a scholar few year after; indeed troubles the mind!

 

“Please break it down for I am just a mere simpletonâ€

If such is the case, and Truly Allah loves those who are truthful, then I sincerely suggest that you do not mix in affairs that are above you!

[rudy-Diiriye]

aint that me! i am gold for the ummah! mark my word!! :cool:

[NGONGE]

Originally posted by Alle-ubaahne:

Mr. NGONG said,

quote: This was a non-believer who criticised a religion. He did what non-believers often do. The “Muslim†reply was harsh, savage and probably not Islamic. I say probably, in case I’m wrong. Though I’d be surprised if his murder was confirmed to be legal in an Islamic sense

He used three words that I regarded very critical to the efforts of those who defend their religion in any acceptable means

HARSH, SAVAGE, AND NOT ISLAMIC.

 

And in response to that, Baashi says this,

“Ngonge (if u don’t mind yaa Raami),

I’m with you on this one sxb. I gotta tell you Ngonge you are one of the few nomads in this site that I enjoy reading their thoughts. Simple, articulate, eloquent, and to the point, some of your posts are more than awesome sxb. Plz contribute more, if you would, in Debate section of the forum

Indeed, am very confused about the flip-flopping state of these people! Our religion is under attack round the clock, and none of them is acting in defense of it. Those who acted are smeared on their backs. No wisdom, no courage and no meaningful position. I can see the absense of sound knowledge in their writings, and thus they are running around and calling each other 'articulate, eloquent and awesome'.

 

Walaahi aduunkaan dadka qaarkiis waa wax lala yaabo, cajiib. Ilaahoow nahanuuni, adaa hanuunka bixiyee, aamiin.

I’m sitting here waiting for my guests to arrive for the Eid lunch that I’ve prepared. Having arranged everything and left the ladies downstairs to chatter away and organise the inevitable last minute items, I decided to come to my “office†and pass the time surfing the net. It’s Eid! I’m excited at the arrival of this great day. The smiles on the kid’s faces take my breath away.

 

It seems that I’m not the only excited person here! My brother, Alle-ubaahne’s excitement appears to be greater than mine. In fact, the excess testosterone seems to have completely blinded him and instead of posting the great praise that I’m sure he intended to post, he lost his way and started firing indiscriminately (wounding Baashi in the process). Ah well, like I said, it’s Eid and therefore, I (and I’m sure Baashi too) will forgive this gigantic slur and patiently ask my brother (and any who are as wound up as he is) to read my words again and ask for clarifications before jumping into such major conclusions!

 

I have to admit, after reading his words, I’ve considered making a few judgments of my own. Nonetheless, for the time being and until I read his reply, I’ll limit my verdict to the aforementioned disproportionate hormones.

 

Should any other Nomads feel baffled by my words, find them hard to comprehend or, simply, obtuse, I humbly request that they ask, hint or allude to the source of their puzzlement and I‘ll happily explain, retract or gladly accept their superior knowledge. Nomads spoiling for a cyber scrap are hereby challenged to a virtual duel in the off-topic section of the site; I refuse to defile this fine section with my victims’ innards.

[Alle-ubaahne]

Mr. NGONGE,

 

First of all, Ciid mubaarak, and let's postpone our disagreebale stances for another time, where we can fully engage the issue of Ayan Xirsi. Because that is where am concerned in your remarks.

 

And until next time, I wish you and your family the best enjoyable ciid mubaarak, .

 

S/C

[Viking]

Salafi,

You still don't get it do you? I'll serve you some cud if you are too obtuse to go easy-grazing... Correct me if I am wrong and please don't be shy; you haven't read Fi Zilal al-Qur'an and Macalim fi'l-tareeq (In The Shade of The Qur'an) but still endorse the view of "other respected scholars'" verdict on his ideas and works? You are brave in protecting the corrupt Saudi monarchy but quick to call anyone who doesn't conform to your narrow-minded views an apostate!

 

Akhi, I have been reading what you have posted here for some time and I think you are moving too fast; you can't run before you can crawl or walk. You are today in the business of calling people 'apostate' even without reading their works just because another learned mortal criticised him. This is a dangerous path you are taking, save your skin instead of (as sahal tells you) chewing the flesh of dead Muslim intellectuals (I'll resort to the term 'intellectual' because 'scholars' isn't good enough for some people - despite the term also meaning "a learned person" in the English lexicon).

 

 

I sincerely suggest that you do not mix in affairs that are above you!

Swahiliga wexeey ku maah maahan "nyani hajioni kundule"! Daayerku futadiisu uma muuqato. This is the same damn message I've been trying to convey to you in vain!

 

 

PS: Here's some Milestone for any interested persons...

 

http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/milestones/index_2.asp

[Salafi_Online]

You are today in the business of calling people 'apostate' even without reading their works just because another learned mortal criticised him

You have some powers there, Are you sure I have not read any of his books? or listened to and read the refutations of the 10+ scholars! See when your not sure of something, its best to ask first,then remain patient until your given a response! seems your convinced though!

 

 

Question and Answer:

by Al-’Allaamah Muqbil Ibn Haadee al-Waadi’ee

 

Q.

What is your statement concerning the student of knowledge requesting the beginners to read Fee Dhilaalil-Qur‘aan, and to place it in their houses?

 

A.

Sayyid Qutb was merely called a writer, he was not called a mufassir (explainer of the Qur‘aan). So his tafseer is the tafseer of someone who lived in apostasy for eleven years, as he himself admitted. So how can that be a tafseer?

 

Source:

Fadaa‘ih wa Nasaa‘ih (p. 63-67) of Aboo ’Abdur-Rahmaan Muqbil Ibn Haadee al-Waadi’ee

 

Viking perhaps my words and Shaykh Muqbil do not carry weight in your sight, if such is the case, then please Ask Brother Nur! since I have discussed this with him before!

[Alle-ubaahne]

The following article is an example of what appears to be the direct result of integration and assimilation at best. I took it from Addis Tribune Online newspaper from Ethiopia. The author I guess is namely a Somalian, but with the Ethiopian mindset and thinking pattern.

 

The Minority Christian Ruling Ethiopia (of Melez Zenawi) expects us to distance our religion in terms of practice, while they are fully proud of their religion. But this guy knows little bit about the facts on the ground, which is that Islam is an inevitable reality to prevail in Somalia.

 

Thwarting the Menace of

Islamism in the Horn of Africa

 

By Bashir Goth

 

It is attributed to Jomo Kenyatta, one of Africa’s finest sons, that the white man came to Africa with a gospel in hand to show the black people the God that dwelled in the heavens; and while the Africans were searching for God in the sky, the white man robbed their land.

 

Today in Somaliland and in Somalia, there are people who claim to have found a new God and a new religion other than the God and the religion that the Somalis have been worshipping and bowing to for centuries. Their aim is to make the unassuming populace busy looking for God in the sky, before they rob them of their rights and their freedoms.

The analogy may seem odd, but looking at it more carefully one can discern the truth of it is not far fetched. The white colonizers of Africa first sent the priest, a man of God who preached brotherhood, love and peace on earth. Once the nerves were numbed and fears mitigated, came the gun and brutality of human avarice – the covert agenda behind all ideological prologues of justice, equality and brotherhood.

 

The real irony, however, is that the victims of such stealthy onslaughts always emerge as the staunchest defenders of their victimizers because the propellers of such crusades are clever enough to always go for the hearts and minds of the poor, the naïve and the faithful.

 

It is along these lines that both Somaliland and Somalia are today under the grip of a horde of Wahhabi/Salafi Islamists who are on the march to re-convert Somalis to their newly-found Islam. The tragedy is that these neo-Muslims have not only made inroads into the fabric of the society but have exposed their menacing claws astonishingly to the inexplicable absence of any media focus with the exception of few unintended stories sometimes slipping through the gridlock, making their way to newswires and inside pages of newspapers but never to the banner headlines.

It was in one of these rare instances that Al Jamhuuriya, Somaliland’s oldest paper, reported on 20th October 2004 about a group of 65 Islamists who submitted an appeal to the Vice President’s office, asking him for the suspension of the reconstruction of the national theatre. According to the paper they described the theatre as a home of vice and obscenity, claiming that it was because of the vices and blasphemy that were taking place in the national theatre that brought God’s wrath on the people, referring to the destruction, genocides and suffering Somalilanders met in the hands of the military dictatorship.

 

This is a shameful and a criminal attempt to absolve the former regime of committing any crimes and to discredit people’s struggle by trying to convince them that their suffering and plight were self-inflicted injuries that befell on them due to their deviation from God’s way. These Wahhabist/ Salafist prophets want to portray God as so petty, so philistine, so banal and stoic who is enraged and punishes people for going to concerts, enjoying music and whiling away their toil by dancing. This is their god and definitely not ours in whose Compassionate and Merciful attributes we invoke Him every day.

 

In another story, the Somalilander website Awdalnews Network reported on 16th Sept. 2004 about a group of Islamists calling themselves the Committee for the Promotion of virtue and Prevention of Vice, a replica of Saudi Arabia’s moral police, asking the Mayor of Borama, capital of the Awdal region, Somaliland, permission to open a representative office in the town. They already have established their offices in most of the major towns of the country.

 

The same story of Awdalnews also reported about the convening of a three-day congregation of the Islamist Tabligh movement in Hargeisa on 15th September 2004 with delegations coming from all parts of Somaliland, Ethiopia and overseas. This was the third to be held in Hargeisa since 2002.

 

And if the recent arrest of the ring leaders of the terrorist Al Ittihad cells in Somaliland who killed foreign humanitarian workers in the country, could be taken as a sign, one can see how entrenched these people are into the fabric of the society. As it is now known the two terrorists had real professions, one working as a pharmacist and the other as the manager of a telecommunications company in Buroa.

 

This speaks volumes of the grip the Islamists have on the economy of the country. Thanks to foreign financing from Islamic brotherhoods around the world they own the bulk of the country’s business, they run Madrasas where they teach their venom in every town and village of the country, they control our telecommunications, their long-robed, long-bearded moral brigands patrol the streets and denude our unsuspecting mothers, sisters and daughters with their prurient looks and tyrannize them under the guise of religious purity. Affirming their grip on the economy, education and dominating mosques’ pulpits, they now want to go for the last bastion of our nation’s soul and identity, our refuge at times of suffering and plight. They want to deprive us of one of our last freedoms, the right to sing. They want to silence our music and our poetry, smash our centuries-old drums, break our mandolins, slit the throats of our female singers (already one of our nightingales Marwo Mohammed was stoned to death in Hargeisa in the early 1990s) and deny us to reconstruct our spiritual shrines – our theatres. Just remember Taliban’s religious lunatics destroying the historical sculptures of Bamian and denying people to laugh.

 

Somalis know through their age-old culture that life without singing is dull, dreary and not worth living at all. As Africans music is in their blood. Everywhere and on every occasion they sing. They like to while away the toil of life with songs, drums and music. They sing in the fields when tilling the land, at wells when watering animals, in the ranges when grazing their animals. Even their beasts and their livestock, their cows and their camels, their goats and their sheep comprehend and lull to the whistle, tunes and humming of their herder.

 

The Wahhabist/ Salafist attack on music and women is not incidental. They know the power of music and women’s role as cultural custodians of the nation. They know that they could not win the hearts of people and particularly the youth as long as music fills the airwaves and as long as young mothers sing folkloric lullabies to the tender ears of their children, handing down centuries-old legends, superstitions and mythologies to future generations. It was the Greek Philosopher Diogenes who said “Discourse on virtue and they pass by in droves. Whistle and dance the shimmy, and you've got an audience.†The Islamists know that the soft power of music and the lullabies are more powerful to win hearts and minds than the shrieking voice of the firebrand Imam who advocates hatred and stoic life from the pulpit.

 

Now with Somaliland’s parliamentary election drawing close, it does not take a genius to predict who will be looking at us in the face when the new house of deputies convenes sometime in April in 2005. Having chosen to co-habit with Islamists for so long and trying to gain international attention for its nascent democracy, the government would have no choice but to concede to the majority vote and handover power to the second Islamist/ Wahhabist government to ever come to power in the Horn of African, the first being Sudan. The other option would be to follow the Algerian route, declare the vote null and void and plunge the country into a religious war, a route that the people of Somaliland can neither afford nor allow to happen.

 

In Somalia, the situation is even bleaker with Islamist courts maiming people’s limbs and sending them to death in Kangaroo courts and giving refuge to all Islamist fugitives and criminals. It was in Mogadishu that the killers of the foreign humanitarian workers in Somaliland were arrested by the CIA before they were handed over to Ethiopia which in its turn extradited them to Somaliland. I remember when I wrote the long essay “Against the Saudization of Somaliland†end of 2003, some of the otherwise supportive readers rebuked me for dedicating the essay to the memory of the humanitarian workers who were killed in Somaliland at the time. They were of the thinking that it was impossible for Somali Muslims to commit such heinous crimes. The recent arrest of the culprits who happened to be members of the Al Ittihad has since then vindicated my position. I know it is hard to swallow for my fellow Somalis but what many of them, who commonly live abroad, do not know is that the moderate, integrative and inclusive Islam in which they grew up is rarely practiced today back home. It has been taken over by a Jihadist brand of Islam spread by disciples of Wahhabism and Salafist marauders.

 

The greatest challenge that the newly elected president of Somalia would face in the capital is not the warlords as many observers may like us to believe but the Al Ittihad terrorists who exploited the political vacuum to own all businesses and run powerful militias. With the newly-elected President Abdillahi Yusuf Ahmed, who is known to be a trigger-happy fighter with a strong disliking for Islamists, Somalia may have got the man it deserves to return it to normalcy through the barrel of the gun.

 

But it is the peaceful and democratic Somaliland that Islamists may find an amicable environment to thrive and prosper. Looking at the recent history of Islamist movements, it is only in democratic countries or political vacuums that they find their safe havens to operate but never in dictatorships where despots call the shots.

 

Knowing the dangers that may result from such political void, the IGAD countries and the international community have invested money and energy to establish a government for Somalia. But in order to bring quick results and to pre-empt any future plans of the Islamists to abort and fail the efforts of the international community, it is imperative on the African Union and the world community to strengthen the hand of Abdillahi Yusuf against the Wahhabi/Salafi/ Ittihadi enclaves in Mogadishu.

 

It is also equally imperative on the IGAD, the AU and the International Community to give Somaliland the recognition it deserves and extend urgent economic assistance to enable it ward off the menace of the enemy within that would otherwise not only threaten Somaliland’s nascent democracy but would spill over to the entire Horn of Africa to frustrate peace building efforts in Somalia and work as a safe haven for Jihadist groups in neighboring countries.

 

Until then, we Somalilanders will try to ignore to look at the heavens in search of a new god but will hold tight our musical instruments, rebuild our theatres and continue to be enchanted by our artistes’ famous prologue, the lyrics of the celebrated Somali playwright Hassan Sheikh Mumin,

[Baashi]

Alle-ubaahne,

What did I do wrong here sxb? Where do I go wrong? Did I contradict myself here?