^You're forgeting one thing - you're a miserable refugee they took in out of the kindness of their heart. Those others dalka bay u dhasheen. Would you like it if ajnabi that you took in as refugees in Somalia ripped off the state and the public? Qof axsaan ku sameeyay deserves xushmayn.

^Oh the HORROR!

Shouldn't we be all used to this by now? Oh well. If the Norwegians and others dealt promptly and harshly with them - it would decline. Somalida ma xishooto way baqdaa.

Interesting. What's the difference if any between af maay and af dabarre or others - is it a matter of dialect?

LOL - what a monstrosity. But not surprising - have you seen how they paint houses in Somalia!!! The other thing is how everyone plasters the Somali flag everywhere - honestly better to do a weekly garbage cleanup in your town than using up all that time and money to paint the blue and white everywhere.

^Che it's not just war. It's politics now too. If I want a certain (bigger) piece of the pie - I will use all my leverage including Ethiopia unless all Somalis agree to a just formula. Somalida can't seem to agree - that's where the whole thing falls down.

^If that's the case - if I were Silanyo I would quickly define 'success' at the lowest bar possible.

^Not in the long term but if I'm coming to kill you and the Ethiopians offer you a gun to defend yourself - I doubt you will refuse. Sadly Somalis are antagonistic to one another and then wonder why some ally with Ethiopia.

^Understood but if opposing the attendance to this conference was a popular political move then wouldn't the opposition have run with that? You would assume they would hew to what gives them a political advantage. Unless either the populace is apathetic or actually supportive of attending.

^They are couching it as an across the board decision with support from all the parties. Regardless of the outcome - how can the current admin be solely held to account if the opposition was in full agreement? Xiin's caravan has come in thru a British door?

^Exactly - though the 'Wahaabis' (and I dislike that loaded term) were about religion - the Turks are all about business.

Naxar Nugaaleed;783668 wrote: . 1, no it is not. I cant be responsible for someone sitting in your house. Its completely crazy for you to ask me to do something about someone in your house. Kick him out, then i can do something about it. otherwise your telling me to attack your house which is crazy. 2, i did't ask you not pay them, just kick them out or otherwise shut up about me not doing something about someone in your house. The person sitting in 'my' house purports to represent you. He is not some random individual. Ought you not prevent him from going to my house and if not - why allow him to return to your house frequently while you establish a separate representation of your own and then claim he doesn't represent you? I think you should do whatever actions are necessary so that people who don't represent your broad and consensual interests in fact don't have any buyers who will purchase their merchandise. 2. So you want them to be paid but kicked out of the house? How does that work? The reason they are being paid in the first place was to woo them to 'my' house since they claim to represent you as a constituency? It would be pointless otherwise. You really are not making sense. These individuals are an obstacle to you and thus the onus is on you. I'd like to know - what do you think should happen to PL VP and the other SSC ministers? What should happen to the SSC elders in the PL 'parliament'? Should they be replaced? Should moneys for police and security provided by PL if any cease? The PL admin seems to accept the consensus of the Taleex conference but hasn't pressed Khatuumo on accepting the resulting corollary.

Is this official? May cause some heartburn.

Overblown. About the only thing Iran has done was to send some arms to Al-shabaab and that wasn't much and not sustained. There is an Iran bugboo stoked and fueled by the west. I'm not surprised that the Gulf Arabs have swallowed it whole but now Turkey is getting in on the act too miyaa.

^Agreed for the most part. Hopefully things will progress properly to reflect the people's will. I will quibble with this: 'any disgruntled politician and his few dozen militia that crosses the political divide over to Somaliland is a reflection of Khatumo State's political cohesiveness is a bogus one.' In the naked Somali context - political cohesiveness doesn't matter much. Territory does and Xaabsade has brought over rather valuable real estate indeed.

Naxar Nugaaleed;783604 wrote: Please enlighten us what khaatumo can do about a man sitting in hargeisa ang garowe? Should khaatumo go to war with both sland and pland? Calool uu shaqeysteyaal intat godaha gashateen bat leydiheen wax ka sameeya, orda ethenku Iska so saara kabacdi rer khaatumo wax ka sameeya daha. That is a question for you to explore not others. Shouldn't there be thinking/planning/strategizing about sidelining Xaabsade and his militia and regaining Las Anod? If there is - that is good. The point remains that the Khatuumo leadership has to turn the will of the masses at Taleex into concrete political reality - otherwise it doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Your other point that people shouldn't pay your political prostitutes is moot. If you didn't have them in the first place no one would 'godaha gashateen'. At the very least you have to be the loudest voice denouncing your political prostitutes. Political prostitutes exist in every region and clan. Since the fall of Somali government there was no government formed for Somalia that did not comprise politicians from Somaliland region. Yet we understand the political convictions of those politicians are not reflective of the prevalent political direction of the said region. Arguing the sheer existence of Xaabsade and his militia or any disgruntled politician for that matter is a reflection of a unique division with the Khatumo folks is transparently weak argument ---facts on the ground contradicts it. There is the reflection of the people's will and then there is the reality on the ground. One man and his militia control the capital of Khatuumo and no amount of the people's will has budged him upto now. This reality is not commonplace in Somalia today - where a community has spoken unanimously and a few have thwarted that voice completely. The Khatuumo leadership has an opportunity to do some self reflection and come up with some way of sidelining these prostitutes. Barring that - this project is not going to go far. Clearly this isn't a done deal and the agressive actions of Somaliland in Buhoodle are but one part of a pattern. Unless the larger question is addressed - and SSC has its best opportunity to do so given the overwhelming support for Khatuumo - Ngonge and others will have arguments that are at best half right.

Chimera;783603 wrote: I'm sure they can, but the onus was on you! Ah, yes, until its proven and so we can say the myriad of planets scientists are 100% sure of having water are "unproven" claims because they haven't actually taken water from the surfaces of those planets. What is this? Elpunto the "presentist" speaking of the future? No way! No there is no onus on me - I told why at this juncture it's irrelevant. I take it you're not disputing it is unproven. In Somalia and on the planets. I speak of the future when I have an idea of what it may probably be and plan accordingly for it in the present. I don't make current plans on daydreams of what the future might be. It's as if I plan and build beach hotels in Somalia now on the basis that Chimera will be the president of Somalia in the near future and tourism will boom. Yet we are called "haters" or more amusing "environmentalist" as if its somekind of insult, its a badge of honour. Complain to those who called you hater not me. Environmentalist is a badge of honour. But you're confusing that with Chicken Little. That is not a badge of honour. Wouldn't it be better to see the current deals, and deduce from that whether those signing them are actually competent to do so when the real negotiations start? I agree - we should see the current deals. But we are at the exploratory stage - it doesn't matter much at this stage of the process. It will be vital at the stage of extraction and production. There is a difference. How do they know there is oil? You just told me it was "unproven", why bother then? In one part of your post you're dismissing 80 years of geological surveys in Somalia, and in the next part you assume there is actually something beneath the soil. It makes no sense. I'm tempted here to tell you to re-read what I wrote but I will try once again. They didn't/don't know there was oil - they hoped for it. The oil resources are unproven. This is what this stage of the process is about - proving them. You can have a hypothesis and then move to prove it. But you can't make plans on the hypothesis being true without proving it to be so first - ie make an environmental agency/contingency. Why can't the likes of Bilan wish for Puntland to show visionary planning by establishing such a protectionary agency? By the time the oil would be exported this agency would have matured sufficiently and trained the necessary people for contingency plans, not to mention acquired expertise. You can wish for that. But you're facing scarce resources. Quite frankly I'd rather the money was spent on wells and schools rather than an agency whose very need for existence you have yet to establish. RR is a small company, yet their mishaps in America can't be swept under the rug, since that is the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world, a clear motive to be on good behaviour, and still this mess happened. Puntland has none of America's institutions to hold them or any other company part of this or future deals accountable for their mishaps. Yes - you have shown me one mishap. What does that mean for Puntland? That they should cancel the exploration in Dharoor? Should they cancel all contracts? We're talking about the present here. The other thing - before you can impugn the environmental record of this company - you do have to show it is a clear and willful pattern. Otherwise this is more chicken little. Who is holding him accountable for his extension? Who is holding him accountable for missing funds? Who is holding him accountable for the deportation of IDP's from the South? Who is holding him accountable for the arrests of journalists? Answer = Nobody. No one - but the petty dictates of this flawed leader can't be compared to potentially hundreds of millions if oil is found. The central government, oil producing districts and even sub-sub-clans will demand to know where the money went. All of the above! I don't want to see a one man show a.k.a Gaddhafi 2.0, nor do I want to see the type of practices American oil-companies are unleashing on Nigeria's environment. I don't either. We're not at that stage. And really you think the present situation in PL/Somalia is better than LIbya or NIgeria in terms of infrastructure, access to services, etc. I don't believe so. Becoming like Libya or Nigeria is a step up for Somalia. Though I and you have higher aims. Why wait, what would the negative side be of caution? None! What would the negative side of lazynimo and myopia be? See the Niger Delta! What? People can fantasize about Somali cities reaching Tokyo and Dubai status but how dare someone give a thought about our People's rights and Nature's health? Your attempt at a counter-argument is still stuck in the presence, while my argument and that of Bilan is firmly rooted in the future, for this entire endevour is a futuristic project, which needs futuristic planning. If you think RR or those other companies like Africa Oil are waiting for "facts" to make a fortune in the future then that is a clear delusion of reality, for they have planners, and they have gone through all the geological surveys of the last 80 years in Somalia to plan the future of their businesses and wealth, why shouldn't we do the same? Don't we have to have an inkling of the future before we make plans for it? Isn't it prudent to wait and see before plunging into plan making? Won't it make a differnce to our plans if the oil found is 200 million barrels or 20 billion barrels? Don't you have to marshall your scarce resources effectively rather than speculatively? Your argument is based on a premature and alarmist conception of the future. Not sure there is anything that will change that.

Naxar Nugaaleed;783496 wrote: The will of the people of khaatumo is as clear as Day. I know it, you know it, we all know it. But as has always been the case, some here will not feign ignorance and and will continue as we've come to realize about them that the actions of few politicians are somehow indicative of the division or unity of these people. This day and age we should really know better. we have seen people come out in support of the new state in almost all of the cities, towns, and settlements. We have seen towns that word pro Somaliand such as widhwidh or pro puntland such as xudun and taleex Proclaiming their allegiance to the new state. Yet here are those silly naysayers with their none sense about division. We have witnessed the reaction in buhoodle when their native son spoke against the leaders of khaatumo yet give the khaatumo president who hails from ceerigabo district the welcome we have all witnessed. Yet here are those silly naysayers with their nonsense about division. It is also obvious that those silly naysayers rather than praise what it is a sound footing, that they paint the structure of the new state as weakness when it's obvious that's it speaks to the ingenuity of the designers. Khaatumo has one president, a position that will rotate among three execatives that were elected. All in all, we shall see what is to become of this state but my message to all the prophets of doom here would be careful. Tell a lie long enough and you will believe it your selfs. The stench of your dishonesty can be sensed miles away. I think that when Ngonge criticizes Khatuumo supporters as less than forthcoming - he is not completely wrong. What you've said here about division and a few ppl etc is what has been said for a very long time. The point of Khatuumo was to bridge these divisions and make concrete changes in the political landscape. I understand that is going to take time but so far the omens are not all that positive. So long as the will of the people can be over ridden so easily by a few men - and this is the key - there is no plan by the Khatuumo leadership to effectively neuter them then the fingerpointing should be more directed inward than outward.

^Exactly. Bal adiga usheeg. Chimera;783562 wrote: I haven't seen a single piece of writing regarding this deal. Yeah pretty dark to me. - The duration of their leases. - The percentages. - The role of the federal government. - The role of the governments the oil-companies are registered in. - The conduct of exploration and contingency plans. I want to see this in writing, not Al-Jazeera videos or BBC articles. Assume? Where is the deal in writing? Everything now is just through hearsay from those involved, no disclosure of the agreement has been made, hence its an utter cloak of darkness. I'm sure SOLers can enlighten you here. From my perspective not important at this time. Somalia has oil, and it has alot of it, geologically and geographically speaking its tantamount to wondering whether there is ice in Antartica. Its therefore absolutely important that whatever deal is signed, benefits the Somali people, otherwise we will be duped like the Chadians, I'm pretty sure they had the same mentality as you when they entered into those agreements. Really? - it is believed that the oceans contain vast quantities of resources but that is neither here or there until it is proven. I'm afraid your analogy is a poor one. You do know agreements can be changed in the future? If the Chadians were duped why do you assume we will be too since we have you and Bilan to stop us from that folly. Ultimately deal terms don't much matter now - let's see what we have - and then the real negotiating will begin. You're illogical, how can Puntland set up a "Petroleum and Minerals Agency" if they have no idea of there being oil in those basins? Why invest in green-energy today when there is plenty of oil around? Why go to a damn college if your not sure you're going to graduate or be alive in four years time? What's the point of the bloody future if your illogical argument wants to force us to look only at the present? No - you're illogical. They set up that agency to prospect and to spur business in the hope that they will strike oil. But you're asking them to set up an environmental agency/contingency to prevent oil spills when they don't even know they have oil. It's not a proper comparison.You make plans on what is possible and probable - you don't make plans on something that is not a possiblity. What about this: http://www.lhup.edu/rmyers3/MyRange.htm On its website Range affirms its commitment to safe water: "Because Pennsylvania has one of the largest water resources in the nation, we recognize that being good stewards of these resources is extremely important." But apparently the folks at Range define good stewardship in a slightly different manner than is customary. On May 27, 2009 a leaking waste-water pipe from a Range gas well polluted a tributary of Cross Creek Lake in Washington County. The spill killed fish, salamanders, crayfish, and aquatic insects.[1] On May 14, 2010, the DEP fined Range $141,175 for spilling 250 barrels of fracking fluid into a high-quality waterway in Washington County in October 2009. [2] Range claims on its website that their "commitment to protecting the environment" can be seen in their erosion control efforts. According to the DEP, Range was cited at least six times between 2009 and 2010 for "failure to minimize accelerated erosion" at sites in Clinton, Lycoming and Green counties.[3] The citation of September 28, 2009 noted that their failure to implement and maintain an erosion plan resulted in sediment discharge into Hoagland Run. Range also insists that they "work every day to train our employees and contractors and see that they follow and understand regulations and company standards related to safety." If that's true, it's difficult to understand why Range was cited twice in 2009 for "Failure to notify DEP of pollution incident." In the Cross Creek incident, Range employees waited nearly four hours before contacting DEP.[4] Range's website notes that "After drilling is complete, our aim is to be a good guest and leave things the way we found them - or even better." However, according to the DEP, one of Range's Greene County operations was cited on March 22, 2010 for "Failure to restore site w/in 9 months of completion of drilling or plugging." This is in America, which has an established system to deal with shady companies, and hence RR was forced to rectify its mistakes, what exactly does Puntland have in place to force them to do this? How do you know Faroole will give the slighest damn about an oil spill in Bosaso, as long as the money keeps rolling in? I do, he won't give a damn, and there will be no one in the future to hold him accountable, because some genius in the past told us "how do you know there is oil in the first place" lol. What about it? Is this part of pattern of behaviour? What is their overall record? I need more information than one case. As to shady - I refer you to Ngonge. How do you know there will be no one to hold Faroole accountable in the future? Is this about Farole or RR and the environment? If Faroole - let's see if oil is there and before production demand an environmental mgmt plan. If about RR - find out their record and their procedures first. But all that is hypothetical. I think reason dictates we wait at this point. What? Somalia is going export oil by air through the careful positioning of pipelines upwards in to the sky that will shoot out the black liquid to China and beyond? Oil is exported by ships, plenty of situations where oil-spills have happened in such scenarios, off-shore drilling is not the only threat to an ocean's eco-system. Pipeline on to tanker. It's done all the time. To make a comparison between BP and the PL onshore is mistaken. Again - it's odd to be talking about this at this juncture. Stuck in the present again, Somalia has oil and it has alot of it. So you keep saying. You have a hard time differentiating between your wish/hope and what has been proven empirically. Clear misrepresentation of the concrete argument you have such a hard time countering. Instead to be more factually correct you should have stated that we do not want to be exploited, nor do we want our future generations to suffer from the illogical and shady decisions of our time, hence we want transperancy and accountability. Why are you so afraid of these two terms? If you have nothing - can you be exploited? If you don't know what you have - how can you know if you're being exploited? Illogical and shady decisions can be changed and transparency/accountability demanded - but what is needed right now is facts regarding the oil resources in Somalia. Without facts to go upon - illogical/shady/accountability/transparency are words on a screen.

NGONGE;783420 wrote: Nonesense, saaxib. The people met in Taleex but chose three presidents for eighteen months. The people, frankly, don't know what they want. The people keep coming and going from SL. So why do you want me to give up on the 'people' now? Give me a good and strong reason to do so and I will happily do it. What you're talking about is an admittedly messy process and projecting the people's actual desires based on that. The process has its limitations as you have amply pointed out. But the core desire according to the masses at Taleex is clear. No to Somaliland and secession and yes to a regional state. If you're saying I don't believe that - I haven't seen the arguments there apart from the individuals allied with Somaliland. I'm not sure how fair it is to say that either - it's as if someone insists that the majority of Somalilanders actually don't really want to secede - and all their protesatations to the contrary are just hot air. I'd like to know - How do you define division and the people not knowing what they want - is it based on certain individuals or based on the best available guage of the 'people'? What would it take for you to give up on the people?

Chimera;783510 wrote: This is a valid question. The deal is an utter cloak of darkness, only minuscule details have been revealed, nothing else. Is the deal an utter cloak of darkness? What specifically would you like to see that you haven't seen? What is missing from this agreement that is standard practice in well run developed countries? Fill in the blanks. Let's assume for your sake that this deal is an utter cloak of darkness. Is it important at this juncture - when we have no idea whether there is oil there if RR gets 95% and PL gets 5% or vice versa? No - any deal terms are purely hypothetical at this point since we don't know what we're dealing with. An even more important point, Somalia cannot suffer more environmental destruction on top of what its currently going through. The small companies currently leading the oil-exploration and potentially production do not have the economic capital to pull off a BP-Gulf of Mexico, no an oil-spill in Somalia would see them pack their bags and leaves us swimming in oil, and dying from it. This is more than a little ridiculous. How can you suffer environmental destruction when you are not even producing oil and when you've no idea if you even have oil. How can the government make an environmental protection agency or contigency plan if they don't know what they're even dealing with? How can you be bringing this up when we haven't even reached the starting line? Before raising this point - which is so premature - did you find out whether Range Resources has a good environmental record in other places it operates? Or what sort plans and procedures it generally has with regard to environmental protection? If you haven't examined those aspects - to raise this point at this stage is completely without merit. One more point - you and her keep bringing up the BP disaster. This is has nothing to do with how the oil, if we have any, would be extracted. In PL - it is on land - and with BP in the Gulf of Mexico - it was from the bottom of the seabed. These 2 different locales have entirely disparate environmental risk. It's not an appropriate comparison even if Somalia was extracting oil. These five points are what "make or break" an oil-blessed country into becoming a "Norway" or a "Equatorial Guinea". Don't bring Kurdistan or South Sudan for their infrastructure, expertise and international connections originate with well established central governments, they are just continuing this legacy, which Puntland does not have. These five points are moot. Make or break an oil-blessed country?? Damn - you don't even know if you are an oil blessed country or in what quantities. People raising objections at this point are simply illogical. Their thinking is - we have no idea what we have but we shouldn't even look to see if we have anything because we're afraid of x, y and z. What is more appropriate is to find out what it is we have and then demand transparency and accountability. Even if we don't get the latter fully - to extract and sell oil is better than the current situation.

LOL. I remember this from a while back. Ahh the States.

^Really? - why does no one enumerate the well written and sound arguments by the madam? Which are they exactly?

^MMA - A landowner can sign any deal as he sees fit. The federal government oversees - it doesn't negate, prevent or abrogate a contract signed by a provincial government unless there is a very clear reason. My point stands - many countries allow sub national entities to enter into contracts for resource extraction. For you - that shouldn't be a relevant issue as long as the contract is fair and the federal government is getting a fair share.

^Oh come on. Alberta signs its own deals without federal government involvment. That shouldn't be a concern as long as the federal government is getting its fair share and the contract terms are good for the country.