I hope they choose Awees or Shariif for prime minister. Bringing the ICU and the TGF together will surely end the slaughter of civilians in Somalia, if they can overcome the distrust and enmity they foster for each other.

Brother Nur “You just took us back to the beginning, and I don't feel like repeating it all over again.” I was talking about the beginning of this dedication, not just the last thing I wrote. Everything I’ve against the ICU is in my writings, so far I’ve not seen a reason to change my views about them. I was hopping that I would learn something new about the ICU but I didn't. Thank you for dedicating this discussion to me. Our discussion should end here. I may disagree with you on this, but know that I've the utmost respect for you. Wabilaahi tawfiiq

You just took us back to the beginning, and I don't feel like repeating it all over again.

Khayr Allaha ku siiyo lol

Big time joke.

Funny tittle -

Originally posted by rudy: him and alot of dc-xalimoos!

Originally posted by chubacka: Hortaaa before I begin why is the women's section soooo dry, there is neva anyting new here! Dry he? LOL

^^^ Hehehehe

msl:Red Sea: Modareetorka bolitikaal sakshanka dhanka xisaabinta qodoba isku mowduuca ah maa lagaa dhigo -- Waa iga kaftan -

1.ICU is product of USC. Your agreement from previous writings “ there is no doubt that the present formation of the Islamic courts includes recycled old guards from the USC, just like their opponenents (TFG) have within their ranks “ 2.There are warlords in the ICU. “YES, who accepted leadership of ICU Islamic Agenda of application of Sharia. While their oppnenets are LED by Warlords and COMPLETELY REJECT SHARIA APPLICATION.” Actually if you notice 1 and 2 are the same - 3.ICU’s members are above the Sharia while the rest of Somalis are not. I wrote “They didn’t just give a sanctuary to one warlord, but prominent positions were given to many warlords, and these appointments were based on tribal affiliations. These warlords didn’t repent and continued on living as before the ICU kicked out other warlords. Local populations from Afgoi to Kismaio were living under the same condition as pre-ICU. Their houses still occupied, their women still suffering, getting abused, and working in farms that were taking from them. Selective Sharia law and order is not Islamic.” You wrote “So, Likewise, what is wrong if they(ICU) give sanctuary to a warlord who agrees to be loyal to the ICU and Sharia law and order?” 4. ICU members still occupy homes, farms etc from Afgoi to Kismaio. You never disagreed with the statement. ICU’s action contradicts they claim Sharia. And you say they follow the Sharia 5. ICU said one thing and did another “I dont know where you are reading, but our statements that you claim that I have agreed to are either out of context ot a blatant disinformation, please substantiate this too.” You said they uphold Islam and follow Sharia while they do the contrary. Brother: “Let us for once forget the ICU and the TFG, they are temporal political formations that did exist before, and will not exist forever, so arguing about their ISLAMNESS at this point with your currnet logic will not help us get to the most important point in this discusssion.” I know you don’t mean it, but this is very insulting. What do you mean my current logic? I stated my opinion about the ICU in another threath, you dedicated a whole “threat” to my opinion, and so why resort to “your current logic” when you couldn’t sell the ICU to me? Understand this please, my opinion was and is NEVER about Islam but the ICU. ICU is a product of USC, it used Islam when it wanted, and applied its “sharia” when it wanted.

“Gurbaan garabkaaga ha kuugu jiro ama gacalkaa hakuu hayo.” Is a Somali Maah, which existed long before Somalia fragmented to South and North as a result of colonialism, and long before Somalia’s civil war. As any other Somali maah it is relative to user/reader. It is sad, even after I explained what it means; you can see it only in CLAN context. We are Muslims, we love our Deen and follow it. Aside from that, we also love our families and depend on them as they depend on us. My wife being my GACAL doesn’t take away the fact that my wife and I are Muslims, who love their deen, follow it, and happen to love each other. Durbaanka ha ii garaacdee maa naga qaleesid lol.

Nur "Gurbaan garabkaaga ha kuugu jiro ama gacalkaa hakuu hayo." Gacal is who you hold dear to your heart. Your father, your friend, your deen, your brother, your wife, your mother, your sis, your jufo, your clan, your country,your camel your computer, your money. It is just maahmaah and always relative to you. My gacal is my wife who is from a different clan. I hope that helps you.

Points I’ve made in my previous articles that you’ve agreed 1.ICU is product of USC. 2.There are warlords in the ICU. 3.ICU’s members are above the Sharia while the rest of Somalis are not. 4. ICU members still occupy homes, farms etc from Afgoi to Kismaio. 5. ICU said one thing and did another. Now to your artticle points you’ve raised You wrote “So, the question is still unanswered, if the Prophet forgave his opponents in the war, why shouldn’t the ICU forgive their opponents as they follow the Prophets Sunnah (his example)?” You are still comparing the Prophet SAW to the ICU may Allah forgive you. ICU doesn’t follow the Sunnah. “Let us assume your theory that the ICU is as bad as the Warlords.” ICU has warlords known to be very bad it is not my theory, but a fact. “Here is my question: If two factions of warlords, one calling itself the ICU, and the other calling itself TFG have a conflict, and one faction declares that it will implement the Sharia and succeeds in a short time to make large portion of the country peaceful as witnessed by international observers, and the other faction resorts to seek military support from the enemy of the nation, Ethiopia. You have three choices” ICU did implement Selective Sharia in closing Cinemas/Movie studios, confiscate cars, stop Istun, Jaad etc. The only differentiating factor of whether someone was subject to this Sharia was their Clan. From Afgoi all the way to Kismaio were untouched by this Sharia. “ 1. Support ICU because they claim Islam and Somali unity, so someone who at least claims Islam is better than someone who is against Islam.” No Somali is against Islam. Just some people use religion to reach their agenda. Someone that claims Islam and does unIslamic acts is worse than the criminals that don’t hide behind Islam. “2. Support Ethiopian backed TFG because they are tribal organization, which is in the best interest of Ethiopia, otherwise it would not support it, and tribalism is better than Islam.” TGF is based on the 4.5 system representing all Somalis however imperfect that may be, it is not a tribal organization, it is a non-functioning government but nevertheless a recognized government, and it doesn’t advocate that tribalism is better than Islam. “3. Dont support either group, just wait out and see who wins.” We should support the government at least it can be voted out, if it fails to deliver when her time runs out. “Brother, you say that most of the warlord criminals are part of the ICU, please show me the following math: Total number of criminal warlords = X Number of warlords affiliated with ICU =Y Number of warlords affiliated with TFG = Z Y > Z Meaning Criminal warlords of ICU are greater than Criminal warlords of the TFG.” The ICU has warlords and so does the TGF, counting which entity has more warlords than the other is pointless. This is not a soccer match. Are there warlords/criminals in both groups? – YES “You say that ICU leadership are not Islamically more educated, ethical and religious than the leadership of the TFG. If it is only my perception, could you please enlighten me with glaring examples of the contrary, I would be very thankful.” Again ICU don’t follow Islam period according to their actions. See my previous post why they are not Islamic. Are they more educated Islamicallly than the TGF? I don’t know, I didn't test them. Are they more ethical –No. Are they religious –NO. You want example read what I previously wrote. “Brother cant you see how you contradict yourself?” You see what you want to see, tell me how this is contradicting: “When did ICU do that? Referring to your claim that the ICU stood up principle, Islam. “Didn’t they give Ethiopia the justification for coming into Somalia. They Declared Jihad on Ethiopia" Two things: 1) ICU which doesn’t follow Islam declared Jihad, just the same way a non-Muslim can declare Jihad. So me stating what someone decalred doesn't contradict me, but it contradicts the ICU itself. 2) Ethiopians/TGF got the needed excuse to bring Ethiopian troops into Somalia. “They ( ICU) displaced thousands from their homes, farms etc, just like those warlords. How are they different?” I was referring to Afgoi, barawar marko, Kismaoi.hiiraan all the way to Mudug, and yes the TGF and ICU displaced thousands out of Mogadishu. “All of them? If indeed I was the ICU, I would have worked with the TFG, you see all of the warlords, both southerners and the Northeasterners are now working hand in hand.” The ICU is a warlord entity, a product of the USC. TGF and ICU are the same in my eyes. Thousands of innocent people are displaced, and dying because them. Allah will judge them. “Why would ICU "warlords" risk fighting the mighty Ethiopian and American war machine without a principle that is much more powerful like a faith in Allah, when they can easily share the pie with their brother warlords? Like a faith?” They’ve no principle, all of them ICU, TGF, Ethiopia, and the West, if they had principle they wouldn't fight on the backs of innocent poeople. May Allah help us all.

Brother Bixi Welcome back to SOL Thank you brother. You write: “Brother, forget the origins, let us talk where and what the ICU stands and compare it to where and what the TFG Warlords group stands for, who supports them and their position on the implementation of the Sharia as the law of the land.” You can’t forget about the parts, if you’re talking the whole. ICU and USC are the same, so who their opponent is, who supports the opponent, and their ideology doesn’t change this fact. Understanding the parts is very important; otherwise you won’t understand the whole. You write: “The Prophet SAWS when he entered Makkah victoriously, not only did he forgive Abu Sufyaan, his enemy, but he gave him special status, The Prophet declared that " Anyone who enters the house of Abu Sufyaan, is safe" Abu Sufyan was given that previllage to win key figures for Islam.” I wouldn’t compare the ICU to the prophet SAW, may Allah forgive you. So, Likewise, what is wrong if they give sanctuary to a warlord who agrees to be loyal to the ICU and Sharia law and order? They didn’t just give a sanctuary to one warlord, but prominent positions were given to many warlords, and these appointments were based on tribal affiliations. These warlords didn’t repent and continued on living as before the ICU kicked out other warlords. Local populations from Afgoi to Kismaio were living under the same condition as pre-ICU. Their houses still occupied, their women still suffering, getting abused, and working in farms that were taking from them. Selective Sharia law and order is not Islamic. You write: “Brother, The ICU has never attacked any region that accepted Sharia and the Law of Islam.” Why wasn’t Sharia implemented in Afgoi, Wanle wayen…Kismaio? Why didn’t they give homes, farms, and other looted properties to these people? ICU should’ve attacked itself first. “Puntland leadership is loyal to Ethiopia, while the majority of its people are loyal to Sharia and Islam, why do you think that the leadership declared the Sharia after the swift victories of the ICU, the Puntland leadership, was worried for a popular uprising of the Somali people in Puntland by standing with their southern brothers.” Puntland had always had internal conflicts, which had nothing to do with religion. It had Alitahad conflict, Ali Jama conflict, Muse conflict, &^%$ conflict. And it was one man from the last group who claimed there was a court in Southern Galkaio, and soon that evaporated. The only lie that ICU was using to deceit people was the Sharia claim, and by stating where Puntland(Somaliland) stood on Sharia showed ICU true goal and subsequent defeat. ICU claimed advancing Sharia yet they didn’t follow the Sharia. To say A = B, logically, you need to show that at least the two groups ae same in the following areas: 1. Warlords, for the past 16 years have committed crimes against humanity in both the south and the North/ Northeastern of Somalia. Can you say the same aboout the ICU? Most of those criminals are part of ICU. 2. The worlords are all under single leadership of an evil enemy of our country, Ethiopia. Can you say the same about the ICU. Warlords are everywhere and ICU has plenty of warlords who are still oppressing people. 3. The warlords reject Sharia and Islam as the political governance system for Somalia; they support tribal clan system of 4.2 to divide Somalia along clan lines, while all serve United Ethiopia as their master. Can you say the same about the ICU. 4.5 tribal system is something that a lot people supported, however imperfect it may be. But this tribal system doesn’t confiscate homes, farms and oppress people in the name of Sharia. Now the ICU: 1. The ICU has created Peace and order for 6 months never seen in the south for 16 years. Can you say the same about the warlords. For whom? 2. The ICU has a leadership of devout Muslims, who are knowledgeable, respected and clean. Can you say the same about the Warlords? That is your perception. Devout Muslims don’t do what the ICU do, at least they can count on your respect. ICU and the warlords are the same to me, at least warlords don’t claim Sharia. 3. The ICU stood for a principle, Islam, and refused to compromise, refused to sell Somalia to the Ethiopians. Can you say the same about the warlords? When did ICU do that? Didn’t they give Ethiopia the justification for coming into Somalia? I remember when of the ICU warlords declared Jihad on Ethiopia. 4. The ICU has helped many poor families, ran charitable activities, restored courts that gave people their properties. Can you say the same about the Warlords? They displaced thousands from their homes, farms etc, just like those warlords. How are they different? ICU is what it is -- USC with beard and every body know that.

LOL @ Mujahid. Is this another Riyaale, 'cause the one that use to work for Siad Bare would never be called Mujahid.

Asalaamu Calaykum Sorry for the late response, I've been in Somalia for the last two months. As I stated before I was hoping that our discussion wouldn't turn into a word play, but it seems I was hopeless. ICU is a product of USC and you agreed. While they kicked out some worlds out of Mogadishu and Kismaio, they rewarded remaining warlords with prominent positions in the ICU. While Afgoi, Marka, and Kismaio were left untouched and under the same leader warlord leadership, Bay-Bakool, Puntland were attacked whatever the claim was. "How are the Islamic Courts Union and the Warlords the same?" They are the same to me.

Many in Mogadishu who don't belong to Awey's clan will disagree with this myth "They have never experienced tranquility and stability in the last 17yrs except when the ICu was in chanrge."

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: "Day after day brings bad news from what the community is upto in the UK." How come you're the only one that sees/gets this "daily bad" news about Somalis in the UK? "It is almost as if, I'm afraid to open a British newspaper for fear to see of what shocking behaviour they have gotten upto today. Not content with turning the already poor reputation we have, they have gone further and turned it into mud." We have a poor reputation? Please tells how we got it and who gave it to us. lol "Almost daily something is happening, someone killing or being murdered. They say this because there is 'beef' with others. I cannot understand this. It's like those Somalis in the US who said, they can't allow alcohol or touch pork in the shop. I mean how more demented can you get." So you labeled every criminal Somali...lol Somalis are always the victims in violence incidents involving Somali person. As for the US Somalis Taxi drivers choosing not to pick up drunk passengers is their right...who want to drive around a whole night a drunk gaal who doesn't know where they live. "I want to get to bottom of it. I think the root of the problem is this false pride. The false pride that makes one easy to start a fight with someone or swagger down in the street." Somalis are very proud people and always stand up for upholding their dignity and will go toe to toe against any body. It is not false pride my friend it is called self respect..."I may be a refugee in your country but you'll still show me proper respect" We Somalis are simply the SHIT excuse my french. "Understand this, we have no pride left." Don't know what tree you fall from but WE have more pride than anyone on this planet, that is why we've been in civil war for the past twenty years where have you been? "The country is finished and is under occupation." Who is occupying London ? lol "It is imperative therefore that the community focuses in on it's self and understand what has led to this." It is imperative that you should look for some mental help, 'cause you suffering from major major self-image issues "My views on Islam are well clear. I'm a secularist." Do you understand what this means -- lol " Roll Call of Success- Somali man spreading Aids to women http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/3826815.stm The Cop killer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustaf_Jama The Terrorists http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6284350.stm " First story is from 2004 and now is 2007. If Somalis in London have only three negative stories since we're doing pretty good. I wonder have crimes did non-Somalis commit for the past three years..... PEACE NOW the SH$T you write about Somalis is pathetic man get some help!

Nur Brother Let's start. As I see... ICU is product of USC.

"Biixi, more like in the past so, basically i got all those burn marks for nought?...." Those burn marks probably boosted your IQ, otherwise you would've been not you! Honey in the west has a lot addatives that may harm your figure lol, and the exported foods are so dangerous too eat these days.

Nur You could've just asked me in an e-mail what you are confused about instead of addressing me in the third person, redefining basic terms, condescending ...etc. I didn't think my opinion of ICU warranted a whole thread, but since you started one lets clear something out before we proceed. A. What is the ICU? B. What was its motivation? C. Who supported it? D. Who was its members? If this is something you want to talk about, count me in.

Someone should tell the writer that all Somalis are somehow related since inter-tribal-marriage is very common in our culture. A paerson may have a father from this tribe, a mother from different tribe, grandparents, uncles...etc. So this Southern vs Northern Eastern VsWestern is a new and ****** concept and people should stop writing and posting BS that only divide us.

How long can you keap the goods...?

1. Upside down shoes insult Eebbe [Alle]. So most Soomaalis always try to turn properly face up if they see any shoe facing the wrong way up. [i still practice this, though it is ridiculous I know. ] Qof quurinaayo haddaa kabta oo roggan madaxiisa ag dhigto quurada waa ay istaageysaa. Something with magneticism!!!!