Can you hear this ringtone? I can't

fornification is not a sin I recognise! Don’t take my fatwa alone but I think you can happily commit fornification even if you end up cancelling your hajj trip. This is assuming you are applying the south Bolivian definition of the word and not the east Malaysian one (that one usually means, if caught, a three month suspended prison sentence).

You have a classy way of bringing a conversation to an end, dear.

^^^ I shall not say 'qabilto' for any lady that does not own her own place and earns less than 50K! If you know of such a lady and she's Misyar-friendly, you'll be good enough to tell me, won't you?

^^^ Are you some kind of food critic? Val, you dizzy girl, I’ve already said that the restaurant thing was a joke. Bah! You’ll never get it. Serenity, have you heard about the Village Restaurant in Fulham? Waxa la yedhi it’s a great place. When are you going to invite me there?

^^^ The overreaction is nothing to do with the situation in the South. They looked around them and saw how many mullahs are stalking the streets of Somaliland. They saw that video (fake or not) and the reaction it created and they knew there is trouble ahead. They saw the burning of those newspapers and they had no choice but to run to adeero abdullahi for a quick consultation against the common enemy. You’ve got to love the purity of Somali politics and the way it ebbs and flows in unexpected ways. Somebody should start teaching this stuff and pointing out the beauty in which alliances are forged, discarded and forged again with extraordinary ease.

It’s not only a Saudi thing though. It’s taking place all over the gulf. North, I think the chances are very high.

The Harlesden bit was a joke.

I’ve been struggling with sleep this Ramadan. Last night, I went to sleep at ten and woke up at one in the morning. Could not sleep again until five in the morning. This pattern has been going on for mot of the past month. I can think of no reason for this sleep deprivation! Of course, the downside of this is that I come to work feeling like a Zombie and have no energy to use my brain at all (not that I often do)! Serenity got a job? :eek: Val, did you hear about that (allegedly) fabulous new restaurant in Harlesden? We should give it a visit you know.

^^ You don't approve? :eek:

^^^ It does exactly as it says on the tin, dear. The wife stays in her parents’ house and the husband stays in his parents’ house. He can visit her at anytime and take her anywhere.

On the same fatwa on which the Saudi Mullahs legalised this misyar marriage, they also legalised another type of marriage called: a friend marriage.

Heh. Look at that! Mention money in any form (charity or otherwise) and Val’s ears prick up and she suddenly starts writing oodles and oodles of sentences. Warya North, are you sure you’re doing the right thing? 26 miles in humid Dubai are not at all like the London Marathon, saaxib. Do the three kilo one first.

Yes, apparently she can. It is a marriage contract after all and both parties can enter specific conditions into such a contract (as long as those conditions do not infringe on Allah’s law of course). Furthermore, from what I read on the subject, the wife on a misyar marriage can ask for her rights back at anytime and the husband has a choice of either granting her back those rights or divorcing her. The celebrity mullahs are the usual guys you see on TV (Al Kubaisi, Amer Khaled, etc). I was not referring to them in a derogatory way. So, what say you about arranging a little misyar something something the next time you're back here for a quick visit?

Originally posted by Paragon: ^^I hear you, son. I hear you . Questions? Unnecessary! [EDIT] OK, perhaps one question; Islamically, how permissive is this practice yaa NGONGE? Any idea? The Institute of Islamic Religious Law in Saudi Arabia has legalised it (over 70 prominent Saudi Mullahs makeup that institute). The Sheikh of Egypt’s Azhar has also endorsed it and several other ‘celebrity’ mullahs have spoken about it and approved it. So, it sound that from an Islamic point of view, you’re good to go, saaxib. Apparently, as long as the conditions for a marriage contract are there, the marriage (call it misyar or otherwise) is legal. The only difference between this type of marriage and the traditional type of marriage is that the wife, at the outset of the marriage, agrees to waive some of her rights! According to all these scholars, this does not affect the legitimacy of this marriage! For any Islamic marriage to be considered legal, both parties have to be in agreement, the guardian of the bride has to also be in agreement, a dowry needs to be agreed, witnesses have to be in attendance and the marriage has to be announced. Northerner, You’re overreacting there, saaxib. You forget that the vast majority of women are unlikely to accept such a marriage and that, I think, is what will save us from your catastrophic prophecy about the destruction of the family structure. It’s just a fad that will go away with time. Besides, this misyar idea might finally become the instrument (xalaal one) that helps loosen the inequitable conservative control of Saudi society and allow women more freedom. PS Lest I mislead you all there, the mullahs approved the legitimacy of such a marriage but many do not wish to encourage it.

I guarantee you that we have destroyed these SNM traitors. We had them circled, trapped and besieged. Believe me when I say we only let them in those cities as a tactical plan so that we may destroy them. We are about to destroy them. Rest assured that we would! They have not defeated us, it was a strategic retreat! These are mercenaries that are not supported by the majority of the population. They shall be crushed. They have been crushed. :mad:

I’ve got to admit, it’s a very tempting concept for many European Muslims. All those career girls, living alone and receiving a monthly salary that can finance a small village but are still single and never wanting to have a full-time husband, will find this sort of marriage very convenient. Single mothers that don’t want some new man to boss their children about might also love this kind of marriage. I don’t think we need to ask men about their opinions here.

Somayya Jabarti, Arab News JEDDAH, 5 June 2005 — To some, it’s an unthinkable act; for others, it’s better than loneliness, but in what is otherwise a conservative culture, misyar marriage goes against the grain. Misyar marriage is a legal alternative marital arrangement more Saudi men and women are using to offset prohibitive marriage costs and the stigma unmarried women face. In a misyar marriage the woman waives some of the rights she would enjoy in a normal marriage. Most misyar brides don’t change their residences but pursue marriage on a visitation basis. Some marriage officials say seven of 10 marriage contracts they conduct are misyar, and in some cases are asked to recommend prospective misyar partners. Most of the women opting for misyar either are divorced, widowed or beyond the customary marriage age. The majority of men who take part in such marital arrangements are already married. “All the misyar marriage contracts I conduct are between men and women remarrying,†said Abu Fawaz, who’s been a marriage official for four years. “For a misyar marriage all you need is witnesses, her dowry and the acceptance of both parties. Usually the woman either has her own place or lives with her family. Most of the time the woman’s family knows while the man’s family is in the dark about it, be it his first wife or any other family members.†Arab News surveyed 30 Saudi men and women aged 20-40 regarding misyar marriage. Over 60 percent of the men surveyed would consider misyar marriage for themselves with the majority of the respondents in their 20s. Those who would not consider it for themselves would not allow it for kin, be it sisters, brothers, sons or daughters. However, among the men who would consider it themselves, only two would find such a marriage acceptable for a female relative. “If I allowed myself to marry another man’s sister or daughter ‘misyarically’ then it would only be fair to accept the same for my own female kin,†said Mohammad H. “It’s a double standard for men to accept it for themselves and other men but not the females. After all, if we all took up the same policy then who would we marry — each other?†The reasons men gave for favoring misyar most often related to cost, with some asking “why not?†“I get to maintain all my rights, but I don’t have to take care of her financially and don’t even have to provide a house for her,†said 25-year-old Rayan Abdullah, an unmarried medical student at the city university. “It’s a great solution — isn’t it? It costs less than having a girlfriend — doesn’t it?†Or is it a male convenience in a male-dominated culture? “What are the things most of us married men complain about?†asked Ghazi Ahmad, a 38-year-old husband and father of three children. “Don’t all of us constantly complain about the financial burdens, the lack of personal freedom — the routine patterns? Then this is the best marriage ever as far as I’m concerned. Married but not married — perfect.†The opinions of women respondents about misyar marriage were a sharp contrast to the males’. More than 86 percent of the women 20-40 would not even consider such a marriage for themselves. Only four women — all in the over-40 category — would consider such marriages for themselves or relatives. Most of the women respondents called it “legal prostitution†or objected to the lack of women’s rights in misyar marriages. “I’m set in my ways,†said a 42-year-old bank manager who chose to call herself Muna Saad. “I live with my mother and couldn’t tolerate the idea of leaving her to live alone, and I’m comfortable financially. At the same time, I’d love to get married,†Muna said. “I also think it would be amusing for the roles to be reversed and sort of ‘own’ the man for a change and having him owe me rather than the other way around.†Despite optimistic expectations, such marriages are not always blissful. Former and current misyar spouses said it can become a nightmare if pregnancy results from the union or if there are already children from former marriages. With most misyar marriages rooted in secrecy, the husband is only a ghostly figure occasionally seen. Once a child is conceived, the luxury of secrecy disappears. “My second misyar marriage was doing fine despite my hawk of a first wife,†said Abu Abdul Rahman. “But that was only until my second wife got pregnant, and then the real nightmare began. She wanted to announce our relationship publicly because it put her in bad situations societally — you can’t be single and pregnant. I had to tell my family and my wife, and all hell broke loose. Now both marriages are on the rocks.†There can be other unforeseen consequences of secrecy. “I’d been married misyarically for almost a year when members of the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice paid me a terrible visit accusing me of prostitution,†said a 35-year old divorcee and mother of two who chose to call herself Warda. “They wanted to drag me to the police station even though I kept shoving the marriage contract in their faces. I had to call my brother — with whom I wasn’t on speaking terms. It was terrible. I hated myself and hated all men — my children were 6- and 7-years-old.†A social worker who frequents the courts denounced misyar marriage. “The courts are overflowing with problems from regular marriages regarding financial obligations that husbands ignore, custody problems and alimony,†she said. “There is a horrible, growing problem in enforcing the law upon neglectful husbands and fathers. How can anyone legalize a procedure such as misyar marriage that will make room for more irresponsibility?†the social worker asked. “Unfortunately, misyar marriage has made it easier for irresponsible, immature individuals to enter a relationship that is supposed to be based on credibility, reliability and respect,†said Abu Zaid, an elderly marriage official. “This isn’t the case. It’s treated as a temporary solution for lust. That’s not what marriage is all about. In regular polygamy all wives have exactly the same rights over the husband, be it financial, be it regarding time spent together or being public. Women think that misyar marriage is for their benefit when in fact on a long-term basis, they pay the price and not just from their pockets but from their emotions, as well.†Many parents and children of misyar wives stated that they felt the woman as being sold short in such a marriage. Parents mostly said that the only reason they accepted the situation was in recognition of their daughters as adult women with their own needs and their right to respond to such needs. “I begged my divorced daughter not to marry a suitor who proposed a misyar marriage,†said Abu Fahda. “At the end, I gave in because I didn’t want to be the reason for her having an unlawful relationship with a man. I’m an adult, and I know she has her needs, but I’d be lying if I said that I have any respect for this stranger who comes to my house for intimacy with my daughter. I even have trouble looking her in the face,†he said. “My neighbor’s niece was married misyarically for a while, and then when the husband was done with her he just left her — just like that.†Abu Fahda’s grandchildren share his sentiments — especially sadness. “I don’t know who this man is — this man who comes to our house and spends time with my mother,†said the 6-year-old boy. “He’s not my father, and he can’t be her husband because fathers and husbands live with their families.†For sociologists, misyar marriage is a head-scratcher. “What are we telling others about our self-worth, and what are we telling our children about the significance and meaning of family?†asked Dr. Nahid L. “Marriage is about in-depth relationships — not just copulation. Why are more women willing to forgo what is theirs just to be ‘called’ or falsely feel married?†When marriage was created it was to ensure that no one gets anything for free. “Each, husband and wife, has duties and rights — and even in regular marriages women are already taken for granted. Marriage isn’t just about sex. Misyar marriage is only going to make things worse as far as I’m concerned.†Some say society msut consider other alternatives. “If they want to really solve the issue of unmarried women instead of making it easier for men to marry repeatedly and cheaply, they should make it easier for Saudi women to marry non-Saudis,†said a school teacher. “Years ago in college, I overheard one of my son’s friends talking about marriage and girls, and he asked ‘why buy the cow when the milk is free?’ They were talking about loose girls and there not being any need for marriage with them around,†said a university professor. “With misyar marriage, haven’t we just legalized the ‘why-buy-the-milk-when-the-cow-is-free’ syndrome? And we’re supposed to be civilized?†Source

^^^ war delete the photo before more people make comments about that poor guy and his wife. ps Can you do me a favour and put Val in your ignore list while you're at it. Her delicate skin is not used to the Aussie sun

Originally posted by Lady Blessed: Salaams, quote: It’s not at all wrong to say that the veil hinders integration. Facial expressions are powerful tools in individual communications. How can you tell if the person you’re talking to is interested in what you say if you can’t see what their face looks like? Are they sad, happy, indifferent, bored? They eyes of course help in conveying some messages, but, so too do the lips, the nose and the facial muscles. Zooooooms back to the 1920's . In the age of telephones, text messaging, collaborative online work, that argument is weak. I'm not agiants a debate on the issue as there is a need for explanation and (a willingness) to understand, but that's a two way street. What's wrong with mr. Straws approach is his assumption that the veil is so trivial, it can be dropped to accomodate the lazy :rolleyes: Hijabis and veiled women in particular are excluded from society by being barred from work and even some educational institutions. What's left is a society that relies heavily on representation provided by hostile tabloid media and politicians that make unhelpful asinine remarks. Community relations or the lack of it runs far deeper than the veil, Islamic schools. The sooner the government realizes that, the better for all. *glad to be out of the shidhhole* You say it’s a weak argument yet you don’t point out the weakness, ayaayo! Jack Straw is a politician and politicians are naturally opportunistic. Everything to do with Islam is the ‘in’ thing these days and he’s only doing what every other politician is doing. However, on the actual issue of the veil, it’s very clear that many non-Muslims are uncomfortable with it (nothing to do with being lazy). You and I may be used to it and have grown to accept it as the norm. Mr Straw and others are not. What makes it worse is that when they ask about it, many Muslims tell them that the veil is not really an obligation and that women should only wear it in certain (extenuating) circumstances! In this light, I really can’t blame him and others for bringing this topic up and wishing to discuss it. On the other hand, it’s also very clear that the media’s war against Islam is now in full flow. One day after Straw spoke about the veil, the headline on The Times was about a suspected terrorist that was alleged to have got away from the police by wearing a veil! Now, are we discussing this here from the angle of the veil and the West’s perception of it or from the angle of propaganda against Islam and our natural defensiveness against it?

Heh! What a strange looking chinese guy!

Originally posted by Alle-ubaahne: quote:Originally posted by NGONGE: ^^^ Are you living in Dubai or do you have to commute there, saaxib? Traffic must be murder. What happen to you these months saaxiib? Did you marry Ayaan Hersi, or you.................... I love you too, darling

^^^ Are you living in Dubai or do you have to commute there, saaxib? Traffic must be murder.

Originally posted by Alle-ubaahne: May Allah forgive you and cause you to die before the end of this holly month of Ramadan, aamiin. Heh. Priceless. Absolutely priceless! Comment of the year.

It’s more than obvious that his comments are made for political reasons. Tony is on his way out and all the big players are doing/saying things that will show what strong leaders they are. Still, like Seeker said, it’s not as much of a big deal as what is taking place in supposedly Muslim lands. I’ve always had a feeling that the issue of the veil was going to eventually be discussed. The recent ruckus about the banning of the Hijab in France and the school girl’s case in the UK were big indicators to this final outcome. It’s not at all wrong to say that the veil hinders integration. Facial expressions are powerful tools in individual communications. How can you tell if the person you’re talking to is interested in what you say if you can’t see what their face looks like? Are they sad, happy, indifferent, bored? They eyes of course help in conveying some messages, but, so too do the lips, the nose and the facial muscles. As Muslims we accept the choice of some of our sisters to veil their faces but non-Muslims have no reason to accept such a choice. I can easily understand why they would find it uncomfortable and want to debate it (debate for now and not ban). Still, no matter what the issue, I sincerely hope that our ‘spokespeople’ will finally get the hint and stop flying of the handle every time they see or hear something uncomplimentary being said about Islamic symbols (I note that the Danish issue has been brought back by the way).