^^^ There is a bit of exaggeration there, surely. How could you ‘teach’ five-year-olds about homosexuality when you have not even started them on proper maths and English! I think you underestimate these children by the way. Besides, they already learn about Christianity, Judaism and a dozen other faiths. They’re not less Muslim for it. The books you mention, I imagine, are merely storybooks. And, as I’m sure you know, the beauty of stories is in the fact that THEY ARE NOT REAL. I think all this is an overreaction on your part. ps pornographic video? Come on now

NGONGE Those achievements would be small pickings for a man sitting behind a laptop in his cosey, central heated house in Ingriis care. Afaa caleej! I haven’t said anything about being content about our situation, Ayeeyo. My point is for every blood-sucking warlord there a few men and women who are working in developing the country. You can choose and play with the words to attach to the positive feelings their actions stir but I choose to be proud of the dignified, resilient majority. If you guys want to be one-track minded in your analyses of the happenings in our homeland, it’s your prerogative but spare us the generalised self contept. There is no self-contempt there, ayaayo. The achievements are small pickings for ANY man, regardless of where he’s sitting. If it’s the people you mentioned then really only a fool would not be amazed by their perseverance and defiance against all the crippling odds. Long may they continue in progressing and improving! However, the question was about being proud to be Somali and I see no explicit reason for such pride. If the sum total of the achievements of a whole nation are those meagre pickings you’ve mentioned then it’s not only wrong, it’s also indolent to be proud of being Somali (today). You are right though; there are many Somalis that have contempt for their origins and people. Yet, on the other hand, there are many more that live in the clouds and are proud for no particular reason or achievement of their own. I would have been prouder had I come across Somali literature that sings the praises of our people and talks about our indefatigability and tenacity. I would have been proud had I heard poems, songs and stories that catalogue the struggle of our people and demonstrate their wish to see an end to these chaotic times. My lack of pride is not related to hospitals being built, orphans being helped or any other physical signs. For these can be blown up, trampled on and destroyed like they were the first time. My pride will come once I see a change in attitude, thinking and cultural stances. The dignified resilient majority (as you call them) are doing what they always do in times of peace, or war. They’re just living life and trying to make it as comfortable as they possibly can. They’re worrying about tomorrow’s dinner, their children’s’ education and their sources of income! The idea of being a Somali and being proud of that fact is nothing but a passing thought (to them). Those outside that have the time and luxury to be proud are not all doing what they need to do to justify such pride. Granted, many donate money, organise aid and help in any physical way they can. They and those back home all deserve the highest praise and gratitude for their efforts. But it still does not begin to touch upon the coattails of pride. In any case, and as usual, I don’t think you and I are that far apart in our feelings and understanding of the issue. I certainly don’t see myself in the self-loathing camp and surely don’t see you in the blindly proud camp (though both camps are real). Where we differ is the in the course we take to approach the subject. You believe it wrong (and unfair) to approach it from the angle of critique and fault finding (or at least, that’s how it appears to you). I on the other hand, do not approve of the idea of pride right now. I would happily acknowledge achievements and praise the perseverance but I’ll stop short of being proud. For to be proud now is to give licence for people to sit on their laurels and attribute all other shortcomings to everyone else but ourselves! I’ve already pointed out that, as a nation, the achievements we made are small pickings, basic and plain. Again, I’m not belittling them, I’m just telling it as it is. I don’t at all wish to depress you here, but a quick look at Somalia today will easily reveal to you how bad the health services our, how non-existent education is and how rudimentary the reach of the law (or even the respect for it). In fact, one can write an endless piece simply cataloguing all the failings of our nation. But that won’t help anyone here. Suffice it to say that we all know and realise what we’re being faced with here and what, in an ideal world, we should be doing. Only when we’ve ditched the delusion of pride and stopped selling each other the twaddle about Somaliland being Africa’s best kept secret, Mogadishu having three phone companies or the amazing ability to buy a cold refreshing Hagan Daz from a number of Bosaso shops, could we begin to change the collective Somali psyche and confront everyone with the severity of the situation. There is a lot of work yet to be done, and pride (in the form displayed here and by most Somalis in the Diaspora) works only as a hindrance rather than help. The painful fact still remains that Somalia is a wretched country in need of a new direction and a fresh attitude. You want to be proud and want that pride to be taken seriously? Then turn into a demagogue, ayaayo! List all the faults of Somalia, admit their existence and point out the folly for their presence. Then, turn the whole issue on its head and eulogise the idea of Somalnimo and sing the praises of the grandchildren of our ancient (and current) Somali heroes and how despite all that was thrown at them, they emerged fighting, trying and maintaining their heads above all the floods of injustice. Say it’s in our genes. Wonder how with such ancestors we could ever go wrong. Bang the drum, flame the feelings and point out what a unique race and land we come from. And when the people gather round you and believe in this special uniqueness then you might, just might, have reason to be proud. To say that you are proud because five people in Sweden sent a dozen second-hand wheelchairs home is to accept a pittance and that for me, the descendant of so and so and so, is really not good enough. :mad:

Khayr, After seeing you panic and scream about the end being nigh, I really had to watch this debate and see what is it that got your goat. It was an interesting debate. I enjoyed hearing the views of all sides and didn't find myself agreeing with any. Never mind, I may go into more details later. But first let me talk about your LACK OF COMPREHINSION (you asked for it, saaxib and I’m only here to help). The title of the debate was: The face veil is a barrier to Muslim integration in the West. Now, Mr "The largerly muslim audience made a POPULAR VOTE on an issue on the DEEN". Do you want me to walk you through the meaning of this motion or can you work it out for yourself? The motion asks if the face veil is a barrier to Muslim INTEGRATION in the West! It does not ask people to ban it, curtail it or ditch it. It's a simple question about integration. You either agree that the veil hinders integration or you don't. Those that voted for the motion agreed and those that voted against the motion, disagreed. Everyone that was part of that audience or watched the debate on TV (or on the net) knew (hopefully) that this VOTE that seems to irk you that much has no particular bearing on the veil or real life. The ironic thing about all of this is that I think you would have voted for the motion (i.e. yes the veil is a barrier, etc). Your argument, if I may hazard a not-too-difficult guess, would have been: YES the veil is a barrier to Muslim integration in the West and we, as Muslims, are happy to have such barriers in place because we don’t compromise in our deen and such areas of our faith are not open for discussion. We also don't agree with integration because that's just Moral relativism, etc. Ps I know you're dying to know my position on that debate. Well, if I were in the audience I would have voted No. The veil is not much of a barrier, people are.

What part of the word debate don't you understand, saaxib? Why are you wasting your time and writing all of this if it's not a debate you are after? True: Allah yahdeena

Ooewdyne, Heh. Ooh! After all those ghastly mushrooms here comes my tree! Naturally, of course, I’m going to fully enjoy picking out all the overhanging ripe fruits that I see before me, and if it proves to be a tall order, I hereby promise that the phrase: Sour Grapes shall not escape my lips. So long, wretched mushrooms, so long. The exquisite quandary was a mere putdown, my friend. One that was fully justified in the circumstances. Here we had someone who simultaneously initiated two strange threads (one about pride and the other about shame)! Leaving aside the moot arguments about nations having pride or living in shame, the simple fact that he chose to start those two threads concurrently implies this person’s state of mind. He’s in a pickle, a fix and a tight spot! A proud Somali, living in shame! Do you follow? An exquisite quandary, wouldn’t you say? Now, before I continue to answer your main question, I would like some guarantees, saaxib. Lets make this discussion a serious one with no need for chicanery and twisting of the facts. More importantly, lets drop the lopsided analogies. Though I normally would not waste time on the French example you gave above (for it’s totally wrong) I feel it’s only fair that I point out its unsuitability to the argument we’re having here (for the benefit of the reading public if nothing else). The French were at war with Germany; they lost. The Somalis, at the time when they 'invited' the Ethiopian troops to Somalia, were not at war. The reasons Germany invaded and occupied France are not in any shape or form similar to the reasons Ethiopia sent its troops to Somalia (I don’t expect you to talk about some great Ethiopian Master Plan, but if you do then please come with proofs for I don’t do tittle-tattle). Never mind. I am sure that non of the above was the reason that got you eagerly replying to this thread. As you clearly said in your last reply, you wanted to understand the logic behind my suggestion that the TFG shall prevail. Very well, and sidestepping your little barb about the genuineness of my legendary fence-sitting, allow me to STATE - THE - BLATANTLY - OBVIOUS! As things stand, the TFG has the support of the main players in the world. It has a standing army and the practical support of two other foreign armies (three, if the US feels like bombing anyone again). It is supported by a considerable number of the populace (Puntland is not that small). The TFG is also in control of the capital city of Somalia (granted that some would derisively laugh at the use of the word 'control', but the moral victory of having a president residing at the presidential villa should not be discounted). Now, most governments are not usually measured by their achievements, victories, reforms or durability. No, they are almost always measured by the strength of their opposition. Let us look at what forms an opposition to the TFG. Well, first we have the Islamic Courts but are they really a strong, viable and real opposition now? Bleat as anyone might, the resounding and collective reply will be a clear and unambiguous NO. This of course is not due to a lack of effort, desire or application on the part of the Courts. It’s more to do with the shortage of outside (strong) support, real weapons and organisation. The Courts as we used to know them are, sadly, a spent force. Whatever is left of them will no doubt carry on fighting the good fight and being a thorn in the government’s side but they’re not big enough or strong enough to win. Many romantic types will argue that these insurgents will do exactly what their brothers in Iraq or Afghanistan are doing. But, this is not Iraq or Afghanistan, this is Somalia. The glare of the world media does not shine as brightly in our part of the world and the unscrupulous actions of the TFG (and their allies) will not cause as much outrage (in the world) as it does when it takes place in Iraq or Afghanistan. This means, as I’m sure you understand now, that the TFG and it’s allies have a free hand to deal with and crush any resistance in whatever way they deem effective or necessary, without having to worry about human rights, world opinion or any other basic ethical considerations. The second opposition group that the TFG had was the warlords. They are, for now, a very content part of the government and offer no immediate threat. The third opposition group is Somaliland, and that entity also offers no immediate threat nor is it overly concerned with the presence of foreign troops in south Somalia. The biggest opposition to the TFG is, probably, the people of the capital (and those clans that made up the bulk number of Courts and warlord supporters). It’s also possible that many in other parts of Somalia oppose the TFG for no other reason than its reliance on foreign help. However, people the world over are fickle, indecisive and unreliable. Oh they mutter, grumble and complain. They talk about shame or pride and even talk about war and honour. But without someone to lead them one way or the other they remain powerless moaning sheep. In the meanwhile, the TFG goes on consolidating its position and reinforcing its authority on all the dissenting parts of Somalia without being faced with any group worthy of the title Opposition! Is it not then, and regardless of the fact if you’re a friend or foe of the TFG, very simple to see why I believe the TFG shall prevail? They’ve got the momentum, they’ve got the funds and they face no discernable opposition whatsoever. Yet, if you’re a supporter of the TFG I don’t think you should be preening just yet. As I said in my earlier post, I believe the TFG will rot from the inside. The characters that form that government have never been the best of friends. Furthermore, though it was the Courts that forced them all (TFG members) to finally see eye to eye, I don’t think they suddenly became reformed characters who love their country and want the best for it (in spite of the Courts’ renowned ability to reform, this was one too far). So, sooner or later we shall start hearing murmurs of discord within the TFG and soon after that a full-blown political war shall erupt. How the fallout manifests itself is anyone’s guess but I personally doubt it will get us back to the time of fiefdoms and warlords. I believe the thieves want to play politics now, which means that the TFG shall be here for a while to come. This is my take on the issue, saaxib. If you believe my analysis to be wrong I’ll be more than happy to accept your reasoning. If you’re privy to any information, news or facts that I overlooked or was not aware of, which you believe will shed new light on the argument and might make me change my mind I’d be (honestly) more than grateful to receive them. Over to you...

be normal sometimes akhii, laakin ithaa qulta sa akhruju seyfii kulla daqiiqah bilaa sabab, ibtila kabiir kugu dhacee calaashaan mar aa lagu duqeenaa is jir, mar kasta ha iska dhigin qof saxsan. Beautiful, just beautiful.

Originally posted by Cambarro: Do we have billionare (not in Somali shillings but $. £ would be better) somalis? These days, the mention of billions brings a smile to my face. Thanks for cheering me up.

Aha! Another opportunity to tell you about the time I owned a gay dog.

People need to put their Criticism into context, politics and politicians do not represent all things Somali. Any one, who bothers to look, will see that Somalis have made tremendous progress during these dark years. We see the building of schools, universities, hospitals and many commercial enterprises using the hard earned cash of individuals. Considering that this takes place in the direst of circumstances without a central government, is it not something to be proud of? There are oil rich nations whose people live in circumstances far worse than our people. We have people that are faced with hardship after hardship, trial after trial yet they still have the strength and iman to say ‘eebaa mahadle’ and to carry on finding survival mechanisms, doesn’t that make you proud? It's the usage of the word, ayeeyo. Your quote above does not make me proud. Peasants are proud of small pickings, and you've got to admit that all you've described are nothing but small pickings (not that I'm calling you a peasant of course! So waxba ha ii ab tirsan) . I'm grateful, happy and encouraged by the "achievements" you list, but neither proud nor content. Pride is a luxury we can't afford or qualify for TODAY. By the way, don't be too harsh on those that tell you they're not proud to be Somali. To them (and me) being a Somali today represents war, hatred, mistrust, poverty, discord and disagreement. All the good things you mention pale in comparison! You find a way to disassociate the idea of being Somali from all these horrid things and, at a click of a finger; you'll have countless numbers of new and PROUD Somalis. Pride in today's Somali environment remains a delusion, ayaayo.

You're proud to be Somali yet you're living in shame! What an exquisite quandary. Does the nonsense never end? If you must have yet another political discussion about the foreign presence in Somalia, could you not at least make it interesting? Introduce new ideas, new arguments or at least lament the situation we find ourselves in whilst trying to find out the reasons why (Xiin might not be happy but what the heck, repeat his questions anyway)? These fat-free, sugar-free topics are killing discussion, saaxib. I'm sick and tired of all these mushrooms, give me a tree with roots and leafs and big massive trunks. Give me something I can either expertly hack down or helplessly bang my head against. I'm tired of squashing mushrooms. They're all over the bloody place. But still, and because you seem sincere in your question and this is only your first offence (even though the way you worded your topic still renders it nothing more than a wretched mushroom), I'm going to oblige and address the topic. Firstly, it really does not matter if the current president of Somalia has the authority to invite foreign troops or has not. The deed is done. They are here and here to stay for the foreseeable future. The question then becomes: could the rag-tag insurgents manage to dislodge them and make them flee Somalia with their tails between their legs? If your answer to this is YES, I'm sure you'll be kind enough to indulge us with reasonable, coherent and acceptable arguments as to why you think this. Likewise if your answer is NO! Secondly,the idea of shame! Why, pray tell, would you consider Somalis to be living in shame? Any child would tell you that shame has been with us for quite a while now and has not visited us only when these foreign forces entered Somalia! Indeed, that child would tell you that he/she was born with this shame. Now, without dismissing him/her as being half-witted, a collaborator or a downright hypocrite, could you possibly have it in you to squash his/her mushroom of an argument? My personal opinion and feeling is that this government, unless it eats itself from the inside, is going to prevail. It's not something I'm particularly ecstatic about. In fact, I wish they wouldn't. But I believe the consequences of failure after all of this bother, are much greater than anything we witnessed before. I also don't think any number of insurgents and their attacks will make a dent in the progress of the government. They will be an irritation of course and they'll win a few battles. But it will not be they that eventually topple this administration. It will not be the people either. At best, it'll be a coup by one of many government ministers vying for the top posts. Where does all this leave us I hear you ask! Well, my own (and very wise suggestion, even if I say so) would be to lie back and watch those pro-government preen and those anti-government bleat. At no point should you (a humble cyber observer) join any of them. Or else, you'll either preen too soon (like many on here) or bleat too late! Best to say it as you see it without getting all emotional about it. Have a think about it. In the meantime, I'll sit back and twiddle my thumbs.

Now whilst I'm not disputing the existence of such relationships in Saudi schools I can't help but question the seriousness of this article. All it seems to be really saying is that some girls are extra friendly and buy each other gifts! Even when it mentions kissing, it really does not specify if it's extra friendly hugs and kisses on the cheek, or, the full-blown French variety! In addition, you have to take into account that this is Saudi Arabia we're talking about. When the article mentions random school inspections it really does not mean that the teachers are going round looking for a couple of girls with their skirts halfway down their knees! No, it's probably talking about a couple of girls sitting closely or horse playing and giggling loudly! Lest I mislead you with my mention of skirts (especially you boys at the back), we are not talking the Western or Japanese school skirts here . Clear that image right out of your head and, just for a moment, imagine a couple of fully clothed, fully covered and cumbersomely attired Saudi girls trying to get it on in the school grounds (no bike shed, sadly). It's either mad or impossible. Not to mention completely dull. Just the thought of them casting off their clothes puts me in mind of one of those amateur magicians that pulls an unending scarf out of his hat (big scarf off, small scarf off, jilbaab off, first set of undergarments off, etc etc). Had the article been talking about straightforward lesbianism, one could at least understand how this can be a problem (in any society not just the Saudi one). But, this does not seem to be the real aim of the article. What it seems to be aiming for instead is the prevention of lesbianism! My words might not make much sense to you if you don't mark the subtle difference here. In short, what the article is trying to do is deal with any symptoms that MIGHT eventually lead to lesbianism; it almost stopped short of suggesting that it's best not to send girls to school altogether! Adolescent infatuations are nothing new and not something to worry about that much. Some youngsters admire their peers, are besotted with their peers and even LOVE their peers. Surely, only if and when this turns into a sexual relationship could we condemn it as being religiously wrong and sinful. Anything below those red lines is fair game. Even adult, single young women (in all societies) talk about BEST FRIENDS and almost always look inseparable from their girlfriends. Surprisingly enough, you don't hear many of them talk about these 'best friends' in the same way once they're married. You also don't see them in each other's pockets as much. Having said all of that, it's possible that homosexuality is rife in Saudi (girl) schools. If the society's response to it is anything like how they consider male homosexuality then maybe the initial idea of this article is a leap forward in Saudi thinking. For whilst male homosexuality is frowned upon by all, it's also (mostly) ignored and tolerated (even though its manifestations are more noticeable and perceptible than lesbianism). Yet, as ever, the treatment of both shall not be the same. Girls represent honour (particularly when it comes to sexual matters), and the reaction to anything that upsets that honour is almost always disproportionate to the act. Thus, two very good friends hugging and buying each other gifts are viewed with suspicion whilst the same act in two men would hardly arouse the same allegations (not unless the two men are being extra girly about it, of course)! Regardless. Though it's a farce of an article, it really (from where I'm sitting) does not in anyway prove the existence of girl-on-girl action in Saudi schools, it merely (at best) warns of it. Zu, An Arab version of the L word does and has always existed. How else could we understand that women-on-women sex was forbidden? (It’s a very descriptive and ugly word too, to be honest). By the way, there are no male teachers in girl schools, saaxib. That would defeat the whole purpose of having a girls' only school, wouldn't you say?

Heh. I promise nothing.

Originally posted by Hunguri: quote:Originally posted by NGONGE: Let me refer you to the lyrics of the song Hunguri just posted. The words are as filthy as can be (though he wisely only posted the nice bits, and, probably was inspired by Cambaro talking about being given a foot massage ). Of course I'm no expert on Somali music but I'll bet that song was not written in your or my time. Very amasing indeed. Ngone, can you plz proof the filthy part of that song?. I challenge The words of this song. There is no a single filthy word in this song or any thing that would charactrize the nature of filthiness. As far as I know, the song was composed by a Somali Abwaan, and Xudeeydi played the lyrics and the Music. It describes the beauty of a Somali woman in its most deepest version. Anyhow, I will post the whole song later, and only then will you show me the filthy words in it !! Did you not notice the word 'filthy' in italics bro? (it's debatable). Horta cambaroodko sheegayaay moxo aha?

Johnny Leave Khayer alone and come reply to this thread.

Boys, boys! Have you never heard of Youtube? Arsenal fight Inter fight

^^^ Have I told you lately that I love you? (Role reversal here).

^^ The third word was SELL But, I suppose I see how you decided to ignore such a preposterous idea.

Why are you agreeing with her about previous generations? The way you and her are talking one would have thought all Somali love poetry only started after you were born! Let me refer you to the lyrics of the song Hunguri just posted. The words are as filthy as can be (though he wisely only posted the nice bits, and, probably was inspired by Cambaro talking about being given a foot massage). Of course I'm no expert on Somali music but I'll bet that song was not written in your or my time. As for the business of procreation, it's possibly even true now. However, the DESIRE is always there, it's only human you see. And when you talk about lots of sources being currently available, are you not forgetting that the best source of info for anyone is OTHER people? I could just picture a group of Somali ladies huddled together two hundred years ago and having a gossip session about all sorts of bedroom matters. With little girls sat to the side and acting all shy and aloof yet keeping their ears pricked up and ready not to miss any single word or utterance. Still, I do agree with you when saying one does not need a comparison. It's all about the senses really. If you have never been assaulted with the smell of excrement in your life, it's very unlikely that when you're faced with such a stench for the first time you'll be thinking 'is this a good smell or bad?'

Yes you do. Though I prefer not to call them nightmares. They're more like dark hallucinations. Oh. Hang on! Here comes one... ** sighs ** **licks lips** **stretches arms and lets joints crack** Aaah..back..where were we just now? Edit: Val, THREE words not two, THREE.

^^^ I knew that one day myself and Alle-ubhaane would agree on something. This might be the breakthrough

^^^ Do you doubt his patriotism and love for the motherland? (NO. This was not a rhetorical question).

Originally posted by Emperor: Su'aal: Yaa ku haboon in laguursado? Jawaab: Sheherazade Are you encouraging the original poster to run off with your betrothed? I'm sure I've seen you propose to her in another thread. Her makeup choices put you off, huh?

I could never bring myself to watch any programs that Ms Yvonne Ridley presents. She always manages to irritate me with her sanctimonies air. I much prefer to watch other Middle Eastern channels (Sharja TV is good value). Besides, when The Islam channel started it was exciting and seemed like a novel (but much needed) idea. Now, whenever I had a quick glance at it I was always struck by its similarity to all those evangelical channels you get on satellite TV. Still, to return to the original post and its topic. I see our tendency to delight in the ridiculous still goes on; yet another conspiracy theory?

North, Why didn't you just go to the shops near the Gold Souk and buy the same stuff for a fraction of the price? You big show off. ps The whole family are not Liverpool fans. Although my old man tries his best to make them follow United. The children only know one footballers name; Jimmy Floyd Hasselbank. And that's because I use the name as a swear word when I'm irritated.