^^^ You really just love to shoot yourself in the foot, don't you?

Originally posted by Northerner: Begs the question who will pay for it? Is that 1 billion? or just 1 dollar? 14 km though? That would be quite a feat. Just think, two of the poorest countries in the world building such an amazing bridge (and almost most of it in deep waters). Now that’s what I call a $1 story.

^^^ You talking to me?

Originally posted by Jaylaani: You don’t miss what you don’t have. Recognition would have been icing on the cake but it doesn’t validate our existence. That comes from within. The people of Somaliland recognized them selves as a sovereign nation and productive society in the global village. Exhibit one, look at the last 16 years and how well that country developed without any international aid. When there is a will, there is a way. If recognition doesn’t come legal, Somaliland will eventually get special status. Don’t buy the lie, saaxib. It’s either recognition or nothing at all. If recognition is not a big deal then what stops you from accepting to be part of the greater federal Somalia? You’ll still have some form of autonomy as a federal state!

Originally posted by General Duke: quote: The AU is not sovereign: it does not and cannot, therefore, grant diplomatic recognition. It is a club for 53 African sovereign states, and a new country can be admitted as a member, not only if it is African, but also if recognized as sovereign by half the membership of the Organization. So what will they do now, since no one is going to recognise them? The whole press release is a load of claptrap that I’m surprised you’re taking it seriously there, Duke. Though it claims that the actions of the Somaliland representatives were hopeless it fails to realise its very own desperation there (in fact, it has the feel of outright panic)! Come, come and let us walk through this press release. First, the quote you had above. It’s claiming that the AU is just a simple, helpless club of fifty-three NATIONS and that it does not have the authority to recognise anyone! It goes on to imply that to seek any recognition from the Union is foolish! If that is the extent of the collective knowledge and common sense of the NSPU I really do feel sorry for the people of Sool, Sanag and whatever the third place was called. Hey, don’t let go of my hand (Caamir can hold to the back of my shirt as he walks behind us) I’m not done yet. Now we’re going to play a game of riddle me this and riddle me that. Ready? Don’t panic boys, for the first round only, I’m going to ask and answer the questions myself, to show you the ropes as it were. Riddle me this: If Somaliland requires diplomatic recognition, where should it go? Answer: Any already recognised sovereign country would be a good start. Riddle me that: How many representatives of sovereign countries could have been found in Ethiopian conference centres and hotels during the recent AU meeting? Answer: At least a dozen for every country that is a member of the union! Riddle me this: Was it a reasonable step for Somaliland to individually approach those representatives? Answer: For a country seeking recognition, it was not only reasonable but a MUST. Ok, now that I’ve shown you the way the game goes, take it away boys. Ps Caamir, I know and understand your opposition to Somaliland but your arguments (or at least those you usually endorsed) were much better than this rubbish, saaxib. Don’t let your standards drop now

Johnny With all due respect my friend, your topic still remains as clear as mud. It still seems to have issues within issues. But nonetheless I shall try to join in and splash about like all before me. On the issue of the Danish Imam and his alleged deceit, the site you provided and the original extract you posted look to me like mere unproven accusations. Therefore I'm not prepared to condemn the man just yet. However, and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, I get the impression that this person's supposed dishonesty is not really what matters to you here. It is the idea that you question, and on that my position slightly tilts to your side. But, let us get away from all of that for a minute and go into the origins of it all. In the case of the Danish Imam for example (and assuming that he did tell a lie) one would presume that he would only have done so because he believes that such false additions are nothing when compared to the actual threat against Islam. It's all about the conspiracy theories, my friend. For if we all believe that the West has an agenda to undermine Islam, we really should not be bothered with the small details of misleading pictures. Again, I'm writing this on the assumption that the accusation levelled at that Imam was true (for argument’s sake as it were). As you see, the problem then is one of mistrust and paranoia. But, is it really paranoia or is the West (in general, and meaning those that are not Muslim) plotting to undermine and destroy Islam? My own take on this is that whilst there bound to be elements in the West that seek to destroy Islam, the charge that the West in general has that aim is false and unfounded. Still, I expect to come across many replies that will invariably contain the words Israel and Jews! To those too I would still argue that this also is impossible to prove and therefore remains a futile and irrational argument. Why then do these accusations appear at every turn and why are people (many Muslim people that is) willing to accept them without question? Well, the answer to that question (in my mind at least) would be exactly the same as the answer for the questions: Why do non-virgin brides wear a white dress in their wedding day? Or why do many men strive to be macho and many women pretty?[/b] I’m hoping you got my drift there. If you can solve the problem causing the latter questions you can also solve the former.

^^ It was more the 'you're in trouble' comment that you forebodingly made in your last post. Still, the passport thing is very strange.

Johnny, You’ve got to concede that the article you’ve used is not the best example to help you get your point across, my friend. Such an article with its collection of falsehoods, tilted facts and biased opinions would test the resolve of the most reasonable of people. Yet, you post it as some sort of longwinded and convoluted example for the irrational ones amongst us! I have to admit that I had to read the article three times (and then read your footnote five times) before I understood your target here. I don’t think Northerner can be blamed for missing your point. I think you’ll find that many people would find it hard to comprehend your exact argument because of the nature of the article you posted. You see, it has too many other scenarios and presents far too many arguments for one to ignore and remain focused on your original goal and direction. It’s almost like constantly slapping someone very hard on the ears and simultaneously telling them that you love them! Can you really blame them if they’re unable to hear your loving whispers? Now, from what I understand, you chose this article because (in parts) it talks about some Muslims that have (allegedly) distorted the truth about the Danish Cartoons, their origins and the ownership of that newspaper. You equate this to the alleged false accusations against a certain Somali author (Mr Farah). This, you seem to hint, shows a certain ready receptiveness amongst Muslims to feel prosecuted and blindly accept the existence of endless dark plots against Islam! I don’t at all disagree with the central idea here but I’m very uncomfortable (and disappointed) with the way you chose to present it. I’m finding it hard to discuss that part of the argument whilst suppressing the temptation to take some pot shots at the biased, foolish, paranoid and irritating article that you posted there.

How will they become extinct? The government is going to stop them? And you support that foolish act, Duke? What is it with you and lost causes, saaxib? I at least understand your support for the TFG, it’s a big task and there is a slight (deluded) hope of success. But supporting a completely futile idea like the gagging of the press? People could just as easily setup satellite radio stations based outside Somalia and reporting the same news. How will the TFG stop them then? You got too drunk in the euphoria of this transient victory, saaxib. Wake up and smell the gunpowder.

Again, lazy dear. I implore you to work on your writing style and delivery of ideas. A vulgar know-nothing child could spit out an insult (or putdown) as the one you came up with. I mean fancy accusing someone of being a drunk! It’s an embarrassing mistake by a supposedly educated person (are you by the way? Or is it fashionable to employ trailer-trash language these days?). I actually like your writing style. Despite all evidence to the contrary you actually do have the ability to string two sentences together. Alas, the real shame is in the contents of those sentences! Now, I know you would not believe it but I actually want to help you out here. Rather than breaking your neck in the desire to be a tomboy that throws out insults at will, I’d like to see you acting like a real lady. Again, I repeat, I don’t wish to engage in futile arguments with you. What I do when I address you at all times is advice you and show you the way to be a nice well brought up lady that does not insult her elders (since you chose to make an elder out of me) with words about drink habits and other nonsense. It is all about the style and elegance of the words, my dear. Work on that and I’ll be more than happy to let you pull on my shirt sleeves as much as you like. As things stand though, you’ll only get them dirty with your grubby hands. Now are you ready to be a good little girl and say the words: Yes adeer. Sorry adeer? Come on, I know there is a nice innocent little girl behind all that italic rage. ** Awaits a breakthrough **

But the majority of the topics are started by females! If the girls throw out these pathetic breadcrumbs you really can’t criticise the flying vermin when they swoop down to have a bite or two, Val dearest. Anyway, the whole site is littered with these breadcrumbs. It flaws and ebbs as usual.

I’m not sure if the attack on polygamy will withstand any close scrutiny. Yes, it’s true that if one person in a polygamous circle has an sexual diseases there is a huge risk that he/she will pass them on to the rest of the people in the circle (I’m assuming the circle contains five people). However, the disease will remain in that closed circle and is unlikely to spread any further. Unless of course, someone cheats or is divorced and marries again! The chances are that one person in that circle will cheat or get divorced. How different is that to a marriage that contains only two people instead of one that contains five? The chances of the spread of the disease are more or less still the same. And, the worry about STDs is not because of an infection to one person but the fact that this one person might go around and infect a hundred others. So, no, I beg to disagree here and think that this preposterous idea is influenced by an already decided and (obviously) subjective verdict against polygamy. Try again people. Or, better still: take two.

Heh. The squirrel is a noble and hardworking animal. By the way, I heard that if you go to Somaliland carrying a Somali passport you don’t get taxed at the airport but if you go using a British, American or any other passport then they do tax you (unless your inadeero knows someone that knows someone that can get you off)! What puzzles me in this is not the tax bit; it’s more to do with the Somali passport! After all, isn’t Somalia a ‘foreign’ country? Why do they get such a privilege?

Originally posted by Northerner: ^^Come on now. You've seen the way people drive here. A combination of Arabs and Indians (you know how they drive in East London) is a very bad one. I no longer say thanks to people who let me change lanes but i do usually force the issue I do and it’s atrocious. The last time I was there I was in a hired car with a fellow Londoner. We stopped at the red traffic lights and were waiting for them to change when the Taxi behind us started peeping its horn a full minute before the lights changed! My friend, not being used to the unique Dubai driving experience, put his handbrake back on and got out the car to argue with the Iraqi Taxi driver. But the driving test, as I remember it, was much tougher than the UK one. Here, all you have to do is take a theory test and then drive around with someone testing you and giving you simple instructions to do (park here, turn there, etc). There (back then at least) you had to do two tests. One was done in the traffic police’s premises and involved reversing your car into winding cones and making sure that you don’t touch a single one of them. Going up a tiny constructed hill and ensuring that the car does not reverse backwards, and various other small manoeuvres. The road test was also as complicated and difficult. Most people passed on their tenth or fifteenth attempt. Of course, they later discarded all of that and happily took part in the suicidal pastime of being a driver in Dubai (UAE). Looks like you’re doing the same already.

Originally posted by BloomDeyr: I won't need any sponsor or Kafil; we will be based in the chamber of commerce thing (I have to double check this; but the likelyhood of my potential boss getting a local sponsor is almost nill; then again he told me that they use to be drinking buddies one of the young Makhtums whilist in sandhurst many moons ago). Anyhow, I can't drive (crystal clear; yes indeed I have been an Environmentlist way before it became hip) so would one survive without a car? Also, how easy is it to pass the licence test? I think I should pay a visit before I decide to move there. Getting a driving licence is the easiest thing EVER in the UAE, if you know the right people that is. It's one of the hardest (or at least that's how I remember it) if you don't have any contacts and have to rely on your wits and luck alone. At any rate, it’s more difficult than the British driving test (providing they did not change the way it was done now).

What would rhyme with Riyaale though?

Now, with people like that in Somaliland (and Somalia in general) how the hell is one supposed to lampoon, satirise and ridicule them? ps (I have a hunch that this article was intended as send-up by the way. I still have faith in humanity).

Oh look! The lazy one leaps in again! Calm down, dear. You had the gall to quote me yet did not understand a word of the words you quoted. I suggest you go back and read those words again before you assault me with your italic drivel. The young lady did confess to reading ten or so pages of the book, and whilst one could easily have shot at her with the clichéd old saying of ‘not reading a book by its cover’, I thought it best to explain to her that a book is also not only judged by the actions of its characters. Again, my hasty young mare, to comment on her words I didn’t have to read the book in question at all. It was a matter of understanding novels and the reason they’re written. Taliban above, posted a critique by professor Samater of one of the books of our disputed author. It was an enjoyably readable review too! Now, had I picked on the professor’s words and tried to tell him that he was wrong (without me having read the book) you would be correct in your criticism of me. However, though I have some reservations about the professor’s critique, I honestly can not question his assessment (for I have not read the book). Indeed, where he differs from our sister above is in the fact that he clarified his opposition to the novel and pointed out the parts where he thought the author went wrong. He did not simply say the book was rubbish just because he did not like some of the characters. Instead, he drew our attention to the flaws of those characters and how unimportant the inclusion of their vices were to the story. As for the rest of your nonsense about me liking to see myself write and write or having a secret drink problem! Well, without wishing to wound your italic pride, I’d only advice you to rise above the childish twaddle and work on your writing style. I honestly have no wish or desire to engage in futile arguments with little girls (and your words portray you as one, my dear). Here, take my advice: drop the italics, for like a deluded ugly harridan that splashes her face with dollops of makeup to hide away the ugliness you hide your obnoxious and pointless words behind those italics. In both cases, everyone but you and the ugly harridan can see right through the comical façade. My second advice to you would be to ease up on the angry little girl act. Sometimes it’s comical, sometimes it’s suitable, but, all the time? That’s just juvenile. My third and final advice would be to actually show some originality. Try to look at topics from a different angle and see if you can add your own thoughts, ideas and understanding to them. Let the cry around the forum go ‘here comes the lazy one with her unique wisdom’ instead of the usual ‘here comes that angry little girl displaying her furious lack of comprehension again’! Having said all of that, I still believe that I’m a good judge of character and almost know that I’ve completely, utterly and totally pinpointed what your real personality is like. I wouldn’t call myself prophetic or anything but, occasionally, I stumble upon some mystic-like premonitions! My strong hunch here is that rather than hate my words and believing me to be in love with writing so much, you actually, secretly, guiltily and almost petulantly do have a soft spot for my writing and can’t help getting upset with yourself for liking what you see. Don’t fret though, my dear. Better people than you like to see me write. So, you see, we have something in common. I like to see me write and you (though you wont admit it and that’s a lady’s prerogative) like to see me write too.

Originally posted by femme_fatale: quote:Originally posted by NGONGE: quote: Originally posted by femme_fatale: I remember sometime back, came across one of his books,'Sardines' n i waz totally excited coz it waz the first somali novel i ever read.didnt go past pg10, coz he kept glorifying unislamic ideas like drinking wine n stuff. i didnt like it.bt itz bin so long since i heard bout him that i waz sure hez dead. I don’t wish to get into the argument about Islamic dress here. It’s too long, too complicated and, frankly, boring. However, I just want to pick you up on your comment about his books. This guy is an author writing fiction. His stories allow him to use his poetic licence and discuss anything and everything (within reason of course). To talk about some unislamic practices in a fictional story is not the same as advocating such practices. Maybe you should have read the whole book before making a judgment about the man’s personal ideas. Unless, of course, his style of writing and storytelling is what you didn’t like. ??? no matter how gud his literary ability is/was, i was disappointed with the behaviour of characters in his book.the book to most non-somalis reflect our culture b believes.i would never want anybody to think that way of us. i really expected more from a somali n most of all a MUSLIM coz thatz wat should guide as From the outset let me reveal that I have not had the pleasure (or displeasure) of reading any of his books. I truly don’t know how good or bad this writer is. I also have no idea what messages he tries to convey in his books. My gripe is only with the way you chose to dismiss him and his books. You neither gave a review of the book, in which you pointed out why you thought that particular novel you read was bad. Nor did you clearly explain why you dislike the author! What you did instead was to criticise someone for the characters in his novel and the actions of those characters! Surely storytelling does not depend on the characters’ actions alone but also on the eventual moral of the story. Did his story have a message? Here, since you chose to use Islam as the yardstick for judgment let me give you a couple of Islamic stories. Now, try to keep an open mind and follow my words carefully as I walk you through a couple of the stories we find in our holy book. First of all, let us talk about our prophet (CSW) and how he is depicted in some of the Suras in the Quran! Ah! How about if we use the one about his meeting with the blind man? In that Ayah, as I’m sure you can recall, we see the prophet frowning and turning his back on the blind man that sought him and wanted to learn about Islam. It is understood that the prophet, at the time, was busy trying to persuade some of the noblemen of Qureesh to become Muslim. As he was doing so, a poor blind man came to him and asked him to teach him about this new faith. However, the prophet being busy with his original task and hating to be interrupted, ignored him and turned his back on him! Now, if we go by your logic of not portraying Muslims in a bad way, surely we would have to censor that Ayah from any book we give to the West. I mean would you really want your prophet coming across in a bad light to these people that don’t believe? A shocking suggestion, wouldn’t you say? Luckily, of course, things don’t work in that way. Stories have ends and usually carry morals. In that particular case, the story went on to demonstrate that Islam is a faith of equality that does not discriminate between rich or poor. It also went on to prove to those that claimed that the prophet was a fake who invented his own religion that such a claim is not true. Why would someone inventing his own faith create an Ayah in which he admonishes himself? I could go on with a couple more stories and their morals but I’m confident that the message is clear now (and worried that I might bore you). In other words, the actions of the characters in a story are not what’s important, the eventual climax of the story and moral of it is what counts. If you believe that this man’s stories give out the wrong messages and that the ideas he tries to convey to us (by the use of his far from prefect characters) are inappropriate, then, by all means, go ahead and criticise him (preferably with some explanations so that we too could benefit from your impressions).

MK, You did a bit of cyber gymnastics there but in the end we went back full circle, saaxib. The wish for peace and blessings would still be implied in your words.

Originally posted by Emperor: ^^Fair enough sxb, let me just add one more thing, so long u need not to be involved with a dicussion along that root and so shouldn't you be bringing it up ( boring or complicated comment).. Apart from that, let meask you a tricky question, why have you decided not to reply on the topic but only to a specfic comment made by fatale, could it be perhaps love in the macking? What do you say had the author made that comment in Public infront of audience. I commented on the sister’s words because they were slightly on the wild and hasty side. She was condemning an author for the faults of his characters! Her comments seemed to miss the whole point of fiction and therefore I thought it worthwhile to draw her attention to how illogical they sounded. On the topic itself, your Excellency, I declined to comment because the title of the topic was not to my liking (considering the evidence at hand). Furthermore, the whole discussion so far has been sensationalist and lacking in real fat. I personally am used to doing one of two things; I either take parts in trivial humours topics or serious ones. I can not take part in a nonsensical topic that is masquerading as a deep and serious discussion. As for your question, let me first start by stating that the comments of Mr Farah are not that unique. That opinion is very prevalent in Somali society. In fact, if you do a quick search on the site you’ll find that our very own MMA has been waxing lyrical about the sacredness of Somali dress and his abhorrence of all these ‘alien’ jilbabs! I recall a particular thread in which he even provided photos. What I don’t recall is anyone accusing him of being a deviant, kaffir or non-believer! Now to answer your question. Had the author uttered those words in public and in front of an audience? With that audience being Somali. They would, being the hypocrite that they are (and because it’s not really cricket), have respectfully listened and then humbly grilled him and requested him to clarify his words. I dare suggest that even our militant Taliban and MK would have done exactly that. There, you dragged me into the topic. Happy now?

AYOUB, Surely everyone (Muslim or otherwise) has a Raqeeb and Cateed (the angels on the right and left)! Otherwise how will they be given their books on the Day of Judgment and know where they stood? I’m always reluctant to use quranic verses when trying to argue a point (in case I get it wrong) however, in most of those I can recall the verse almost always talks about the ensaan (human being) rather than the simply Muslim or Mo’men. Another verse also urges Muslims to greet others in exactly the same way they were greeted (I recall this ayah from memory and apologise if it’s out of context). Johnny you just couldn’t help yourself, could you? you had to get in the way as I was blowing my little sister a kiss there! Hmmm. War do you put coca butter in your face?

^^^ I'm commenting on the sister's words above and not the topic of the thread. The complication, as ever, comes from people’s interpretation of these verses, saaxib. But, like I said, I don’t want to be drawn into this particular discussion.

Originally posted by femme_fatale: I remember sometime back, came across one of his books,'Sardines' n i waz totally excited coz it waz the first somali novel i ever read.didnt go past pg10, coz he kept glorifying unislamic ideas like drinking wine n stuff. i didnt like it.bt itz bin so long since i heard bout him that i waz sure hez dead. I don’t wish to get into the argument about Islamic dress here. It’s too long, too complicated and, frankly, boring. However, I just want to pick you up on your comment about his books. This guy is an author writing fiction. His stories allow him to use his poetic licence and discuss anything and everything (within reason of course). To talk about some unislamic practices in a fictional story is not the same as advocating such practices. Maybe you should have read the whole book before making a judgment about the man’s personal ideas. Unless, of course, his style of writing and storytelling is what you didn’t like.

MK, You see, had you said that one should not reply at all, I might have wondered at the truthfulness of your words and might have even troubled myself to do a bit of research on it. But all you did was say that we are not allowed to reply wa caleekom al salaam and instead we should say wa caleekom! Let me not confuse you with Arabic grammar here. We shall do it in English to show you the folly of your position and the weakness of this myth that you believe (unless you have further explanations of course. Right now I’m purely going by what you wrote). Al Salaam Caleekom, as I’m sure you already know, means: Peace be Upon you. Now, if you reply with the words wa caleekom then all you would be saying is: And upon you! That you are wishing the peace to be upon the other person might not be explicitly uttered by you but it would be implied! You are in essence wishing peace upon that person, even though you didn’t utter the word ‘peace, salaam’. Does this make sense to you, saaxib? I suggest you retrace your steps and find out how you first started to believe in this myth.