^^You would think so, but Somalis general are good defenders. Instead of listening they are too busy planning what they are going to say next. Maybe Somali MPs should write letters to each other, and war lords too. Might help them get on the same page. [never mind, another topic, another day]

Juxa I don't believe in diets.

^^You should have said so; we are not mind readers. Here is him on a blind date: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZUHCLtnYFQ&NR=1 lol

loool Racism is so hard to hide, I guess in places like Spain and Belgium, they do not see enough black people to human-fy black people. So they are just stuck with TV and media representation of black people. Your experience reminded me of this Sayid; seriously you need help with your paranoia. In any case I know you work with a huge none-Muslim population and some of them you love, eat, laugh and crack jokes with. Why then do you get your pants in a twist and cannot give someone who have a different faith to you or no faith the same respect. :confused: I’m sure you don’t think that Tom, Dick and Harry are better somehow because they happen to be white and none-Muslim. Get a grip man, it says something about your own confused double standard and inability to follow their Islamic rules of interactions. In any case you don’t know what if anything the poster believes in, and for all you know he/she could be a better Muslim than you.

Freedom of choice is a right, regardless of what we think of peoples decision; It just gives me a headache that people who are against Taliban or Alshabab can then advocate for a ban. I wish people would just leave women to make their own decision about what to wear. We can’t on the one hand object to forceful wearing on the basis for freedom of choice and then forcefully remove it from those who want to wear it. No problem and thank you, after 5yrs of SOL you and lazy forced me to write a few essays.

Juxa why? You are just bones. Sayid, never took sweets to school. I was too poor to spend money on buying sweets for spolit little Bengalis. Plus I can share anything in life so long as it is not sweets or a husband.

Juxa I just got a box of Arab Bakalawa. Want some?

SalamAlikum all. His Juxa: Faheema go to the GP or the walk in center at our local hospital, you don't even need an appointment. North Happy birthday, may you see many more years. Add to your check list this year "Although I feel 27, my body is 35, so take care with playing ball" Happy bday to Juxa sister who does not go online too. Hello Baluug (I don't want u to feel left out)

Originally posted by Cicero: Ibti, the reason why I reject and oppose Islam does have a foundation. It's reason and logic, experiment and observation. Islam claims that Muhammad is a special person, a prophet of God; that the Quran is the miraculous word of the creator of the Universe. But these are very extraordinary claims with scant evidence. In fact,there's nothing in the Quran to suggest it's a miracle. It can be explained by natural and historical causes. Verses like beating women and the obsession with menstrual cycles and female control all point to the unmistakbly human origins of this book. I think it is a good sociological record of 7th century arabia. It provides anthropologists with insights into the arab pysche. But it's not a good manual for ethics and morality. Cicero then I am sure you will agree it is pointless to debate the current application of something that you think is sociological record of 7th Century Arabia; A better place to start would be to examin your so called logical, reasonable reasons and compare it with believers claim of the origins of the Quran and their proof. Talking about application is a waste of my time and yours and not helpful to either one of us.

Sura An-Nur, verses 30-31: English translation(Light) The above verses you shared were the same verses I brought to Sheikh Nur's attention, in order to get clarity on how he understood said verses, which we are still waiting for him to share and you have done the same, where you have said what you said of the same verses. When I brought it up last year, I did it to first get an understanding on how proponents of the Burka interpret verses that specifically deal with matters of dressing modestly, both for women and men. Okay, I can’t answer Nur, so I hope he gives you your answer. You are the first one who actually attempted to re-vive these very same verses, so, I grand your request of me, which is to bring forth verses that deal with women and women garments, which surprisingly is the same verses I once opened a thread on, but this time, I will share how I interpreted the said verses, along with Chapter 33, verse 59. For the following is said of a 'Woman and dressing Modesty'(after all we are dealing with Burka, so we should limit ourselves to verses that only concern our sex):- quote: ________________________________________ And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed. ________________________________________ I like your translation better; so 1) Reduce your vision 2) Guard their private parts 3) Don’t expose their adornment except what necessarily already shows 4) Wrap your head/ cover your head and part of the head covering should extend to cover your chest 5) List of those who can see your adornment 6) Don’t stamp your feet. Simple enough, to the point and at the end, it instructs women to protect their goodies, i.e not to expose their nakedness to anyone that does not fall under the above category, especially against those that are more likely to engage or draw the woman to break her promise to Allah, thereby covering over 'bosoms' with the same cloth as that is is on her head. So far agree 100% However, it does not instruct a woman to conceal her face but I can see why some commentary of the Qur'an would interpret as beauty being identified with the facial only. Beauty is not limited to just the facial and if we are speaking frankly, the saying of "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder" is appropriate for this part of the discussion because it all boils down to individual liberty to see beauty as one sees fit. I'm sure we don't want to get into a discussion about what true "beauty" really constitutes...some men would say, well, as long as she has an attractive face, that will do for me. Others will say, face matters not and the body, especially her chest and her lower body is more attractive than just the face alone. So far so good, I have no issues The part about not exposing her beauty to anyone that does not fall under the above category is a direct violation of this verse, which makes sense but again, what is beauty to you? We are talking lustful actions here, sexual intercourse, body and soul, exposed for eternal pleasure but does it limit to face? Apparently taliban thinks so. I’m not too bothered about what beauty is, I think every has to cover the same basic thing You have to understand, women of the period weren't awliyo, they were buck wild. YOu could rarely tell who was a convert and who did not adhere to the new religion. all in all, not much distinct from the none converts and this particular verse was how would be able to tell apart from the non-muslims. I think this is still th case partly anyway. In pagan Arab culture, one woman was shared by atleat 4-5 men at a time, so the idea here is to refrain from such conduct and to only expose yourself to your husband and not to anyone else. (thats why marriage was important) This was a direct instruction against pagan practice. Islam had to establish itself as a religion and the light chapter is a reflection of such reform. You can say Islam was reforming the practices of the period, thereby making a direct statement. Also possible and true. On the other verse(Chapter 33, verse 59), it says: quote: ________________________________________ O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful. ________________________________________ For us Somalia, this could be a Dirac and a Garbasaar that would conceal your figure or for the Arabs it could be their own garment or even a sizable men's overalls. So 7) characteristic is to conceal your figure, cover the whole body so that nothing is exposed. Moderation, instructions to wear loose clothes that conceals the woman's figure. If the said garment is long enough to cover her body, including but not limited to the head, it does not object, matter of fact it welcomes it. The way I interpret this particular verse is that its a clause that is revealed for the sole protection of the female. Again, the question of the shape of the female which may entice some men to do more than look is spoken against. I just don't see how this verse speaks of Burka. A material which covers her body, not limited to the head to protect the female. Various interpretations of the above verse are available but this commentary should sum it all up: quote: ________________________________________ O Prophet! Tell your wives and daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks closely over themselves ________________________________________ (again not exclusive to the face but the body as a whole, covering up, making sure the woman's figure is not exposed to the wondering eyes) PS: I think the Hijab crowd should perhaps take a second look at the mirror before they leave the house with their tight jeans and Hijab over their head, thinking iney asturan yihiin, which this verse speaks against it. lol agree. So in conclusion I have no problem with your definition of Hijab, its characteristics and you probably have a better understanding of level of modesty meets such standard than some hijabs. My understanding: So as far as I am concerned, ALL the above are forms of Hijab, you can throw the dirac and shawl in there too, not to mention the Asian Shalwa khamis, to the Abayah in the Middle East, or the Moroccan Dresses. All of them have the basic 7 characteristics and some like the Burka go above and beyond that which is mentioned. I look at these basic characteristics as the minimum that is expected of a Muslimah. What she adds to is entirely her own business. My role as a fellow Muslimah is to support and respect her CHOICE in the form of Hijab she wears, the style, material and design are all individual concepts and basically a matter of taste. Whether I approve or like or think it is attractive is neither here or there. For this simple reason I will always a support a women option to wear or not wear, and if she does wear it, how she wears it. We’ve agreed that in the Quran there is no evidence of facial covering, this means it is not part of the basic criteria and as such there is no sin or compulsion from the deen. This is why I disagreed with the Taliban, because they made something that was at best recommended by scholars or in a hadith compulsory, but they also enforced this notion by force; there by the women had no choice in the matter. But what I do not get is why you would: 1) Vocally object to a women who has chosen to cover her face for her own reasons: Maybe out of piety, maybe because she thinks her face is too pretty, maybe she finds it comforting or is shy. 2) OR support legislations by non-Muslim to ban or advocate for the oppression of this Muslimah who has made a different choice. What makes you (the said advocate) any better than the Taliban who tried to enforce the opposite. Explain to me how you are not the two side of the same coin please? 3) If a Muslim was engaging in an action that was not harmful to society (i.e. endangering society) but just made people uncomfortable or changed the landscape or just scares people, i.e. Wearing a niqab/ burka; I would never support a none-Muslim against a Muslim. 4) Many people think that to none-Muslims they care what sect you are, or if you are a modern Muslim or traditional Muslim or Fundamental Muslim; we Muslims should not open the door for banning and oppressing our minority. This just makes it easy to pick us off one by one. An interest case which has nothing to do with this area is the issue of little Muslim organisations in London; They were engaged in this little in house fighting between mosques and committees, so they tried to use the media against each other and point the finger at each other. Sadly to the media and general British public, we all look the same, the resulted documentary was severely damaging to the Muslim community and resulted in shutting down of facilities and banning of lessons in certain masjids. This in fighting is what is destroying our community; we spend so much energy and effort trying to destroy the brother or sister who has a different view to us that we forget that we are a minority in countries where they really don’t care about what conditions we have to satisfy. My point is, if we support the ban of the niqab or the Burka, how long before the long dress and hijab is seen as extreme and that ban is extended (remember the niqab and Burka only seem extreme now because they are uncommon and partly because its been misused by certain groups) . We are not supposed to be the forerunners who hang the rope that is later used to dangle us from a balcony; if anything we should try to legitimise the Burka/ niqab as well informed choice made by individuals who are the same as you and I. Aliamos Your right, it is getting boring, length, no direction and i'm too tired to read.

Cara; I did not say I want to hang out with him :rolleyes: Shiid women I was just going to take the ticket and then deny it later. CL you see, Cara is too American; we don't do groupies cara Juxa, I like going on holidays alone, too many people means too much time debating what everyone wants to do.

Cara I met a Yankee basket ball player who is quite rich and still no injuries, he offered a paid for holiday there, if I accept can I come and stay with you, sort of go AWOL on him from landing. Loool @ Juxa.

I think her husband will draw the line at a male tag along, and one without Muslims morals at that Afternoon Johnny. Juxa; Lily is not going, and if she does you guys take one holiday with the same amount of dosh I take 5 holidays on.

CL, her husband will approve, she just needs to fake a depressive break down. Sayid, I think Malika ayeeyodba sanka aya lo saranyah ee iska daaf

^^^You do? :eek: ; Biskina iyo Yasinka this calls for family conference; I am, I don't like to admit to it because everyone then asks me if he pays for my lifestyle, university, sweets and holidays. I like to think I work hard for my own way. And yes she is married, but wa free women

^^^My boss asked if I wanted to extend my contract after April or should they advertise the post. I told him No, no I am so going and never coming back. Why don't you take off with me in April for round the world ticket. I feel to do just that. when I come back broke, I am going to go on the dole with five different names.

Malika why do you ask? because he is from Burco? I feel like going home now to sleep.

Cute kind criminal miya lol Your second joke :eek: lol

Juxa wa aaf Jiin Hey chubacka. lool That was funny!! lool

Salamah; Hmmmm... interesting... http://www.islamswomen.com/hijab/virtues_of_hijab.php I checked the website briefly, I don’t see that ayah anywhere. You're tied up, or rather welded, into the "system" that it is always the woman's fault. The man has no control over his urges and thus is excused, but the woman, she is the one who must cover-up completely. This statement of yours is very relative because it doesn't have a "bounding box", whether a woman wears a t-shirt and jeans, a skirt and blouse, a diirac, a shalwar kameez or a sari.. she will always be wearing less compared to the full blanket, used by e.g. the Taliban, in order to prevent women from participating in the public sphere as they rightfully should. Religious fundamentalists such as them also view that what they interpret of the Quran is the most accurate interpretation. And unfortunately you fail to see through that. See my above post, I already told you once my position on man and his urges and who is blamed. I am not the Taliban, never was and never agreed with them, so it is pointless you quoting me what they did or did not do. Exactly my point. This is the system's way of sidelining women and keeping them "away from the world", a world that is controlled by men... whether it be religion or otherwise. Women empowerment is NOT found between their legs or how much/less clothing they wear. It is state of mind enhanced by education and opportunities. Now if you said Muslim women are not given as much opportunity because of what they wear, I might agree with you. Although I don't doubt your experience as a researcher, but at least you have numbers from the West, but in a Muslim society these kinds of statistics are not revealed nor are they recorded for that matter. Whatever rape cases are heard of are of Western women... and please don't make me explain why this is because I know you're smart enough to figure it out. It is not so much that they are not revealed, but that no one carries out these researches and the support system is lacking. As for rape is only reported in the West, yes I agree that they are reported to authorities and more likely to get persecution and support. But as with any crime and even disease, recorded data and investment in research is poor or none existent, so we can never know the true extent. I'm amused by your assurance. A rapist will go for anyone if given the opportunity, whether it's 5 layers or not. Please try to see where I'm going with this. You mention the "mahram" which is also another method for the control of women because as they are not competent or intelligent enough to be on their own. They are weak, feeble and need the protection of the male. They are not equals but they are beneath the male and thus they must be controlled and told where, when, and with whom to go. Opportunity in the key dear, an accompanied female is not a target. As for the clothing, the opportunist wants the easiest and fastest option. As for the mahram, that’s your opinion and not a fact, but after travelling on my own a few times, I see the perfect sense and wisdom in travelling with a male in some societies and if I ever go back to those countries, if I can’t find a mahram to go with me, I will hire a man to pretend to be mine. :rolleyes: I asked if it was a "fact" that what you are saying automatically goes "by extension",I did not question whether or not there will be a new prophet. No, it is not a fact, it is my understanding and opinion, otherwise I won’t be having this discussion with Lazy. Rape is very difficult to claim under Sharia because in Islam the burden of proof is on the woman and since her testimony is half that of a man, she's pretty much screwed... again. How did you get from false accusation of lewdness to rape. In any case, rape is not that straight forward and in this day where modern science allows the use of advanced techniques to identify the rapist with the highest accuracy from semen, saliva, blood, hair, fibers, skin scraps, bite marks. And if sharia existed, the same man could not rape again. But we don’t live under Sharia anywhere in this world, so our arguments will only remain as ifs and buts. Ibti don't start avoiding the issues here. It would be helpful if you answered my question as to how this verse "does not condone violence" and how "a beating improves the situation" and regarding your contradiction. I don’t have time to spoon feed you; I like how you like to clink to the prevailing Arab culture at the time of the Prophet (PBUH) when it suits you, and yet when I tell you that this ayah was dealing with the needs and the circumstances. As for how it can help; the measures may work in some cases and cultures (the nomadic Somali culture which you admire so much is one of them) and on the same token it is not effective in other cases. In fact the prophet discouraged this measure, "Do not beat the female servants of Allah"; "Some (women) visited my family complaining about their husbands (beating them). These (husbands) are not the best of you." As for how does not condone violence; In Islam if an act is "permissible" it is not required or nor is it forbidden nor is it encouraged. There are many examples, but the one I can think of right now is the issue of Divorce in Islam. ________________________________________ In any case, religion is judged by the scripture Not its followers action, otherwise we'll be here all year talking about what different Muslims do. ________________________________________ Oh really? This is a highly illogical statement. Where do the followers get their instructions, inspirations and laws from? Actually you are being illogical here, two different people can never read the same line and understand it the same way, particularly considering the diversity in background and culture. This is why there is such big problem with regards to interruptions and application; it is also why we are even having this discussion. See my discussion with Lazy, take off is hindered by getting an interruption of the ayahs we want to discuss. ________________________________________ Cicero: As I keep telling Johnny I am not going to debate about the meaning of an Ayah or its application with someone WHO does not even believe in the authority of the Quran or its validity or a GOD. Kind of pointless really. ________________________________________ If you cannot reasonably defend what you believe in, then what is the point of believing? and by reasonably I don't mean "just because it's written here then it MUST be true". What do we teach our children before they go to school... "do not believe what people tell you, but think for yourself and come up with your own conclusions". We are not in school, nor are we children; it is not that I cannot defend what I believe in, it is that I would only bother if I think I or they might gain something from the discussion. In this case he is bent on being insulting and condescending and I cannot be bothered. Secondly, there is no foundation to base his objection on, discussion with them needs to start from the top of the pyramid and address the issue of God before you can confront the broad issues or their application. Reminds me of my philosophy class when the lecturer told me to leave God and such ideas outside the door and pick them up on my way out in an effort to get me on the same ground as everyone else. Same way Cicero, Johnny and I will never be able to discuss religion without meeting at a starting point, and the application is not that place. Lazy Allahu Akbar, Walahi you are not even as far as I thought. I will post my response tonight inshallah. Alimos took up enough of my lunch time for now. W'Salam

Loool @ Sujui iyo dacad kale dheer. Musuqmasaq.com Juxa, come you can't even say your home town without choking on your baris or the other passing out with laughter. Don't worry though you could have been from worse named places, hop-hop, iskushuuban, daco quurun

I've met my fair share from both camps CL . The Somali loving ones always remind of Japanese tourist in London; so excited (instead of their OH my god you are from London, have you seen Big Ben and the London Eye- it becomes "oh my god, you was born back home, how does the sand feel, or you luck thing you are from Burco :confused: )

CL, some are Somali and proud Somalis, they love Somali-ness more than us recent qaxoontis. Others are like the Afro-Americans and their attitudes of Africans.

I thought Mohammed Yusef was a sujui guy, might be confusing him with another, baal check with him before you call him as your Somali millionaire. In any case, say Mashallah before your turn his wealth to dusty. JB caajuus waxaid

What?? Nothing to explain, I'm just glad to be alive and kicking. I also had very little sleep and high on sugar and cake and coffee, sweets and juice. I felt guilty about so much junk so early in the day so I had some grapes too. Pretend to be very very very happy and you shall feel happy, learn to trick your mind-