NGONGE;765069 wrote: ^^ As I already stated on countless times in the past, I only chew on special occassions (mainly Eid and fuenrals). So the banning of Khat would make no difference to my life. Marka taa dhinac dhiga. It saddens me that people of your calibre (and Norf's) are talking in such sensationalist way! I'd expect such nonsense from Alpha (and even Alpha knows he's trolling when he writes such stuff) but I really did not expect it from you (BOTH of you). Fix up. First of all, without even talking about Khat in particular you both should be very wary of any calls for the "ban" of things. It is a free world and people's freedoms should not be toyed with just because someone somewhere took exception to something or other. Secondly, if a call for a ban is genuine - and there are many instances where the curbing of the freedoms of some is beneficial to the lives of most - not with ancedotal evidence or feelings of those calling for a ban but with a proper, well researched argument that shows (and proves) that a ban is the best option for all. Khat is a drug, it's addictive and should not be consumed by a Muslim, as you say. But none of what you or Norf presented so far is reason enough for us to blindly support you in your calls for a ban. Your problem is that your both letting your hearts (as always and is is the Somali custom) rule your heads. My heart too says "ban khat". It reminds me of the three friends who committed suicide as a result of becoming marathon chewers. But I am not a hormonal teenager, I am a grown adult, I don't let my heart make my decisions for me. I will only support a ban when I say a proper, well researched and well presented argument that takes EVERYTHING into account and leaves no room for doubt or worry. The Arabs have a saying which when translated to Somali would go something like: wuxu is yedhi indhakool o maray markaaso isha ka riday (which is what Norf risks doing here). Wax fahma dee. Dee waa sidaan sheegay. You just want to waste our time. You are a grown man. One who has lived in London for over what 20 years? If you’re unable to make your mind up about khat now then no research will change your mind. I believe to ask for evidence is little disingenuous and I’m not going to afford my time to it. You see the ban as knee-jerk but, going by your previous posts, you yourself acknowledge it has caused and continues to cause problems. I’m sure there is no dispute there (with or without research). What you have concentrated on so far is the ramifications a ban might have on the community. You have tried to scare us into thinking bus loads of odayaal baa Belmarsh loo diri. This all implies you wouldn’t be too concerned with a ban but you’re merely afraid of the unknown (and that you want to waste my time). I’m glad Malika brought up the Islamic angle. Is there a better reason for banning it (thus making it illegal)? Would you still need a research document?

NGONGE;765059 wrote: It IS here and there if the ban makes no difference to the volume of khat being brought into the country ya badow. Things are bad as they are, don't make them worse with your kneejerk nonsense warya. If you feel so strongly about the subject. Why don't you put the time and effort into researching it, looking into the consequences of a ban, comparing it to places where it has already took place, finding out if a ban caused a reduction in the number of users, listing the percentage and numbers of people that have become criminals as a result of such a ban (and how many were/are jailed). And, when you've done all that, look at its impact on families and if the ban was of benefit, etc. To base your entire argument on the fact that Khat causes mental illness or that it's bad for people is shortsighted, silly and dangerously hasty. WAX FAHAN. So this is where we move goal posts Of course the ban would make a difference to the volume of qaad being imported. It would reduce because importing it would become ILLEGAL. Which means customs would try and make sure none of it gets through (just like they do with all other illegal items). With less qaad on the streets consumption would be reduced therefore reducing the number of people becoming ill as a result. Whether that’s mental illness, tooth decay or malnourishment. You don’t need to research it because you KNOW qaad has left many with mental illness. You also KNOW of the problems it has caused within families. Ha iska dhigin nin aan aduunyada wax ka agoon. A ban will not have huge repercussions so please put back this ‘everyone will go jail’ monster. The impact qaad is having on families now is far greater.

This is a meeting for the sake of peace and should welcomed. Put pride and so called 'nationalism' aside people.

^great saying. Might be my fb status for today Alpha, hear hear. Bal warama. Another nice day I can't enjoy due to being indoors. Where is Ngonge's 'Chronic State of Ennui' thread?

^Mental illness from khat is serious saxib. Banning it would mean a reduction in mental health cases among Somali men (and maybe even some women). Thats just one example. Whether a ban criminalises anyone who continues to chew or if it stops qaad getting into the country is niether here or there.

Characteristics of Believers (Part 1/2) Why did the Prophet mention the believers’ characteristics? There are many authentic prophetic hadiths that talk about the characteristics of the believer. Someone may ask: Why did the Prophet (peace be upon him) describe the believers’ characteristics? The answer is: Because the human being always flatters himself; he constantly complains about his livelihood, even though he praises his intellect. Self-flattery is part of human nature; everyone claims that he is a believer, but if you read the authentic hadiths that mention the characteristics of true believers, you should make a comparison between these characteristics and your own, and know how many of these characteristics apply to you. For example, if someone claimed that he holds a Bachelor’s degree in the English Language – this is an allegation – then we asked him to read some lines in English, but he couldn’t read, then we mentioned an expression, but he didn't understand it, then we asked him to write in English, but he couldn't… this would surely mean that it was a false claim, as his actions didn't prove his claim. When a person praises himself claiming that he is a believer, he lives in an illusion, because a true believer should have specific characteristics. The crux of our lesson today are the characteristics of believers, as stated in Riyadh al-Saliheen (The Gardens of The Righteous), which is considered one of the best books that combine authentic prophetic hadiths. The following are some of the believer's characteristics: 1. Whatever the situation, a believer does not change Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "How wonderful is the situation of the believer, for all his affairs are good. If something good happens to him, he gives thanks for it and that is good for him; if something bad happens to him, he bears it with patience, and that is good for him. This does not apply to anyone other than the believer." (Muslim) In the status of welfare, most people praise and thank Allah, but when they face a sign of any problem, many mistrust Allah (SWT) and begin to neglect worship. The person whose worship changes with the change of his situation is not a true believer, as the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said, and Allah warned of the dangerous turn: Allah (SWT) says (what means): {And many a prophet (i.e. many from amongst the prophets) fought (in Allah's Cause) and along with him (fought) large bands of religious learned men. But they never lost heart for that which did befall them in Allah's Way, nor did they weaken nor degrade themselves. And Allah loves As-Sabirin (the patient ones)} (Surah Al-Imran, 3:146) And Allah (SWT) says: {When they came upon you from above you and from below you, and when the eyes grew wild and the hearts reached to the throats, and you were harboring doubts about Allah. There, the believers were tried and shaken with a mighty shaking. And when the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease (of doubts) said: "Allah and His Messenger promised us nothing but delusions!"} (Surah Al-Ahzab, 33:10-12) And in another verse, He (SWT) says: {Among the believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah, of them some have fulfilled their obligations, and some of them are still waiting, but they have never changed [i.e. they never proved treacherous to their covenant which they concluded with Allah] in the least.} (Surah Al-Ahzab, 33:23) This means: If you change your trust level in Allah, your worship, or your straightness along with the change of your circumstances and status, then your actions negate the real belief in Allah, because a true believer in Allah is characterized by the Prophet's description: "If something good happens to him, he gives thanks for it and that is good for him; if something bad happens to him, he bears it with patience, and that is good for him. This does not apply to anyone but the believer." If your circumstances have changed, you should roll up your sleeves and renew your faith in Allah, because a true believer never changes with the change of the circumstances. Allah (SWT) also says: {And among mankind is he who worships Allah as it were, upon the very edge (i.e. in doubt); if good befalls him, he is content therewith; but if a trial befalls him, he turns back on his face (i.e. reverts back to disbelief after embracing Islam). He loses both this world and the Hereafter. That is the evident loss.} (Surah Al-Hajj, 22:11) Allah puts the believers to the test, and He sends precise tests and trials. Allah (SWT) says: {Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: "We believe," and will not be tested?} (Surah Al-Ankabut, 29:2) There must be a test, as Allah The Almighty says: {And certainly, We shall test you with something of fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives and fruits, but give glad tidings to As-Sabirin (the patient ones).} (Surah Al-Baqarah, 2:155) If the market is in a good condition, you'll find the trader cheerful and glad, he talks about the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), and he talks about doing good deeds. But if the condition of the market is not good, he loses his eagerness to do so. A true believer should not be affected by any circumstances, because he deals with The Creator of the universe, he deals with Allah (SWT); this is the first bargain. 2. Love and caring for believers This is the second characteristic. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “The believers are like a structure, each supporting the other.” (Muslim) It means that your cooperative action toward your brothers is an indication of your true belief, if you love your Muslim brothers and relieve them of their difficulties, this will be an indication of your true belief; helping each other is one of the believer's characteristics. It has been said: "A believer has four enemies: a jealous believer, a detesting hypocrite, a deviating Satan, and a hostile infidel." If believers envy each other, then their level of faith will be low. So the second sign of a believer is to love and help fellow Muslim brothers, to feel their pain and joy, to be happy for their happiness. If your Muslim brother gets something good, succeeds in his job or marriage, or gets a certificate or degree, and you feel happy for him, then you are a true believer. As for the hypocrite, Allah (SWT) says: {If a good befalls you, it grieves them, but if some evil overtakes you, they rejoice at it.} (Surah Al-Imran, 3:120) The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: “The believers are like a structure, each supporting the other." 3. A true believer is a well-mannered person Abu Darda' narrated that the prophet, peace be upon him, said: “There is nothing heavier in the scale of a believer (on the Day of Judgment) than good character.” (Abu Dawud and At-Tirmidhi) Faith means: morality, bravery, generosity, patience, forgiveness, forbearance, and humbleness. When you describe a person as "a believer", this means that he is a well-mannered person, because if he were ill-mannered, people would hate the religion because of him, and will not earn the pleasure of Allah in return. Furthermore, his behavior with his family at home indicates his level of morality, as the Prophet, peace be upon him, said: "The best one of you is the best among you to his family" (At-Tirmidhi) There is no surveillance on man in his home; he fears nothing. If he is a well-mannered person and treats his family well, then for sure he behaves well with other people. And on the contrary, if he is kind and polite with people outside his home, but bad-tempered at home, this means that this kindness and politeness are not morals that would satisfy Allah (SWT), because they are acts of self-interest that depend on the person's intelligence and benefit. The Prophet, peace be upon him, said: “A believer achieves by his good conduct the same reward as a person who fasts much and prays (the voluntary prayer) during the night.” (Abu Dawud) 4. Reciting the Holy Quran is a requirement for the believer In this authentic hadith, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, says: "The example of a believer, who recites the Qur’an (and acts according to it), is like an orange (utrujjah) which tastes nice and smells nice. And the example of the believer who does not recite the Qur’an (but acts according to it) is like a date that tastes sweet but has no smell. And the example of the hypocrite who recites the Quran is like a sweet basil which smells good but tastes bitter. And the example of a hypocrite who does not recite the Quran is like a colocynth (bitter apple) which tastes bitter and has a bad smell." (Al-Bukhari & Muslim) This means that reciting the Quran is among the requirements of faith; the Quran is the spring of the heart of believer; the Quran is Allah's tight rope; the Quran is the Straight Path, and the believer worships Allah by reciting the Holy Quran. So gad tidings for the reciters of the Holy Quran, as the Prophet, peace be upon him, said: "He who comprehends the Quran, Allah grants him enjoyment in his mind until he dies." http://onislam.net/english/reading-islam/living-islam/growing-in-faith/454655-characteristics-of-believers.html

Psychoses The literature outlining the characteristics of psychoses following the use of khat describes two main types: a paranoid or schizophreniform psychosis (similar to an amphetamine-like psychosis) and a manic psychosis. Schizophreniform psychosis Case histories typically describe a recent increase in khat use or heavy consumption. The patients typically present with paranoid delusions, fear, a hostile perception of the environment, auditory hallucinations (frequently of a persecutory or threatening type), ideas of reference, thought alienation and a tendency to isolate themselves, or alternatively displaying aggressive behaviour towards others. If khat consumption is ceased at this time, resolution of symptoms usually occurs within a short period (3–11 days), but there is a tendency for the psychosis to recur if khat chewing is restarted. http://apt.rcpsych.org/content/9/6/456.full

Khat use among Somalis in English Cities (Home Office Report) http://library.npia.police.uk/docs/hordsolr/rdsolr4705.pdf 49% of those interviewed wanted a ban.

^Waar waan ku fahmay 100%. As I said, you want me to waste my time You want me to tell you what you already know. The only grey area as I mentioned before is with regard to criminalising people who would chew after the ban. I see long weekends in Holland for many Khat is banned in more western countries than it is legal in. That should tell you enough. The benefits outweigh the negatives. If that isn't good enough for you Silaanyo usheeg.

If grown adults don't know the facts about qaad and how it is detrimental to health and society at large (especially in the UK Somali community) then they should be arrested ps dagaal baan ku la jiraa the SL Govnt baryahan.

^The ban will enable them to spend their money on dental treatment.

NGONGE;764890 wrote: I know the effects and problems of Khat. I know how famalies suffer from it. I know how many young, healthy men wasted their lives on it and I know how it affects people's health. But that does not mean I want to jump into asking for a ban WITHOUT looking at the consequences of such a ban. It's not about me, Norf. It's about the hundreds of people that will read this thread of yours and decide to vote for the ban of Khat. Are you sure you are doing the right thing? Are you REALLY sure? But that does not mean I want to jump into asking for a ban WITHOUT looking at the consequences of such a ban But you asked WHY it should be banned not what the consequences would be. The consequences would be minor in comparison. The 100s of people who will view this thread will know qaad isn't good for the community. They will know this from observation and won't need an essay to make their minds up

^Same here

^Not really. I see where he is coming from. The problem I have with his request here is wuxu iska dhigaya that he doesn't know about the problems qaad has caused the community. Ngonge, ha dee. I want you to waste some of your time to find what you already know. Like I have already said, you know the ins and outs of the effects of qaad on the Somali community. You know enough to make a decision. I'm only prepared to discuss the legality issue as I think there is scope for a discussion there (the effects it has had on the community/families is a no brainer).

NGONGE;764874 wrote: I want you to tell me how banning it is going to be better. Compare it to north America and the parts of Europe that has it banned. Is there a difference? Is it positive or negative? When you say you want it banned, do you mean you want it to become a criminal offence to purchase, own or use khat? What are the numbers of criminals (through khat) in countries that ban it? War wax la kaalay dee. I know exactly what you want. You want to wast my time Do the research yourself and come back and tell me which way you're leaning and why.

NGONGE;764870 wrote: You want something banned becuase you believe it will be beneficial for the community. You then go on and post biast stories about a woman that jumped to her death after chewing khat. Again, the article you post says that there is no proof this was the reason for her death. So where does that leave us? Oh yes, khat is bad, ban it. BAN IT. BAN IT! Again, you want it banned and want people to support you in this, put in the work and prove that banning it will be much better than allowing it to remain. Wax fahan. Waan ku fahmay. Waxaad rabtaa in laguu sheego cirku waa baluug. Waar you’ve been in the UK long enough to know the effects khat has had and is continuing to have on the community (I think you’ve been there longer than I was now). Madax adeyga jooji oo sign the petition (Eid has long gone ).

All the big boys have gone out. Well done to the semi finalists.

Waakukaa The incident in Northampton happened nearly a year ago. I only posted it to highlight the mental health issues associated with Khat. She had a history of mental illness and was chewing khat when she fell. You don’t need a coroner to establish the link. Putting it on here and asking people to sign doesn’t mean its kneejerk

Alpha Blondy;764853 wrote: ^ come on malika! these are constructive discussions walahi. its not all talk you know. some of these sessions have been life changing. have you ever been to harseldon merfesh anyways? its clean, people look good and it has wireless internet connection, not to mention the leather sofa's and amazing all round service. We have to look beyond enjoying a chin wag with friends saxib. Those constructive discussions are nothing but rubble the following day

NGONGE;764840 wrote: Assumptions? What assumptions are these? That this is a kneejerk plea? Heye, prove me wrong. You would be right if it was the first time people are calling for a ban. But its not. Its maybe the 10th time Alpha, dee saa dheh. A ban is a good thing.

NGONGE;764832 wrote: Nope. Nor would I encourage anyone to sign this kneejerk nonsense. Assumptions assumptions my friend. Alpha, what on earth does all that mean?

NGONGE;764822 wrote: With all the bad publicity about Somalis do you really think a disscussion in parliment is the best thing to do? Ma saxeexday?

Please do Malika. The time has come. Too many problems within the community stem from Khat. I think 100k signatures is alot considering many of our older generation do not use the net. The younger ones need to step up. Spread the word.

I Want to Repent, But… Once in America, a sister came to me. She was from oversees, not from America. She moved there. She immigrated with her family. And she told me “My son is doing all kinds of bad stuff. So I’ve decided to do one thing to fix this problem.” I said “What?” She said “Hijrah" I said Hijrah like overseas? She said "No, Hijrah from my son, this is mentioned in the classical books of Islamic law: to abandon a sinner”. So she said “I’m going to abandon him and I’m sure the society will re-enforce him insha’Allah to come back to being salih (good)”. I said “Sister, where do you live?” She said “I live in San Francisco” I said “San Francisco is not going to re-enforce him to being salih, San Francisco is going to re-enforce the opposite”. So we live in an age now where faith is not forced anymore. It’s just a reality. You don’t live in a compound. It’s not like 40 people and when somebody does something wrong it’s like everybody is upset with him. It’s just a reality of life. Faith is negotiated now, and that’s why the `ulama and scholars and people involved in da`awah have to be extremely clever in using multimedia and all kinds of fascinations to get to the young people, not just “This is right, you got to do it”. It’s not like “you just do it” anymore. Now you have to be intelligent in your da`awah. So I told her if you abandon your son, he is going to be lost. What he needs of you is to be a mother. Perform as a mother. Stand up and be a mom to him. So we live in an age now where we cannot abandon the sinner. We live in the age now where we have to reinforce them and strengthen them and help them in their relationship with Allah. And that’s what the Prophet said “Give good news, don’t make people flee”. But Shaytan “Satan” tricks the religious people. He hardens their hearts. He makes them judge, jury and imprison. So they think because I’m religious I have to be tough. Because I went to Azhar I have to be like a thorn. But Azhar means a rose not thorns. How to deal with people, and you have to be careful young brothers and sisters when you feel that religious edge not to go back home and say “Mom and dad you are bid'ah, you know this all is haram”. And then you think “I did so much for Islam. My parents hate me, alhamdolellah! My brother won’t even listen to me anymore. All my best friends abandoned me. This is a sign I’m righteous.” This is a sign you are fool! The Prophet's Example Tofail ibn Amr (may Allah be pleased with him) came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) from the Al-Daws tribe in Yemen to Makkah, and said “O Muhammad, I want to be Muslim”. He became Muslim. Then he went back to his village. He went to his father and said “O my father, may Allah curse you! I’m under the religion of Abraham and you are a polytheist. You are fools. Come back to Islam or you are not my father anymore.” What do you think his father said? Do you think he said “Oh sure, great religion!”? No, his father told him “Are you crazy?” Then Tofail said the same thing to his mom, and she didn’t become a Muslim. Then he went to the whole village of Daws and told them the same thing, and not one person became Muslim. I wonder why?! Then he went back to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and he said “O Messenger of Allah, make du`aa to Allah that He destroys all those people of Daws”. How many of you heard a du`aa of “O Allah destroy the kufars (disbelievers)?”. But how many of you heard du`aa “O Allah guide the disbelievers to the right path?” What kind of Ummah have we become? We don’t even pray for non-Muslims any more. We pray “Stones on their homes, earthquakes, and floods” as though we are the weatherman or something! But what did the Prophet (peace be upon him) say to Tofail when he asked him to make du`aa to Allah to destroy them? The Prophet said “Raise your hands with me Tofail” so Tofail raised his hands. Then the Prophet said “O Allah, have mercy on Al-Daws and guide them”, then he told him “Go back, and know that kindness whenever it touches something it beautifies it, and hardness whenever it touches something it defaces it” He went back, then the next time he came was to Madinah, and one of the people who became Muslim through him, out of a lot of the people from that area because of his new upgrade if you will, was someone named Abu Hurairah. Abu hurairah came from these people. Kindness, helping the people, realizing that young brothers and sisters nowadays is hard, man with all this pornification of the society. When I was a little kid in America, you couldn’t get porn. I would be on my way from school and there would be like a group of boys behind me, like a seven of them, and in a low voice they say to me “Come here and check this” as if it’s Wikileaks! “Don’t tell anyone, right?” And I would say “Oh I’m not going to look at that, my mom is going to kill me”, and then “Wait a minute", and I take a sneak peek of the photo and then say “Flip the page, flip the page!”. But now you have the pornification of the world through the internet. Be Kind and Patient In America, I can speak on behalf of America, in most communities except a few, the last place when young Muslims who have problems go to is the Masjid People are in need of help, not condemnation. They need help and assistance. So the Prophet (peace be upon him) would raise the people. In Sahih Al-Bukhari, when a drunk man got drunk the first place he went into was to the Prophet (peace be upon him) in the Masjid. He didn’t only came to the masjid, but came to the Prophet (peace be upon him). In America, I can speak on behalf of America, in most communities except a few, the last place when young Muslims who have problems go to is the Masjid. Why? Because they don’t feel comfortable. The Prophet was honest and trusted before he was a Prophet, but we want to have religious authority without earning the trust of the people. Whereas the Prophet earned the trust of the people then he was given the religious authority by them, he didn’t have to demand it. So this man is drunk. The first place he comes to is the mosque. He doesn’t ask for Abu Bakr or Umar. He asks for the Prophet (peace be upon him). That is the relationship the Prophet (peace be upon him) had with uplifting the people. Repentance So where does repentance start? After the community we have the responsibility to try to address the problems of young people not just through the Imams, but through psychology, through medicine, through science and through the community, not just one person. People in America come to me in my office and say “You know, my friends block me on twitter”, and I'd say “I didn’t go to Al-Azhar for that, I don’t know about blocking folks on twitter bro. Go ask someone else”. And we have to respect the concept of takhasusat (specializations); different professions and utilizing them to help the young people in our community, and what they are exposed to. That you live in an age where doing haram (bad things) has izza (support) that didn’t exist before. This is something that we should consider. So number one, where does Tawbah (repentance) start? Allah Almighty in Surat Al-Tawbah says “Indeed Allah has turned to the believers”, then in the next verse at the top of the next page “Allah turned to them so they can turn to Him”. Scholars said something here incredible: they said “Repentance starts with Allah, that when Allah Almighty turns to the person's hearts, they will feel within themselves the sense of repentance (turning to Him, turning back to Allah Almighty). So number one, if you feel the sense of grief and sadness know this is from Allah... http://onislam.net/english/reading-islam/living-islam/growing-in-faith/454940-i-want-to-repent-but.html