Richard Dawking mocked the Muslim World's intellectual inferiority

[Tallaabo]

Allyourbase;991523 wrote:

Absolutely, I think these are the sort of questions that muslims today ought to look into. An objective look into all issues that are not compatible with our modern understanding of the world and a process of revaluation are key if the Islamic societies of today are to avoid regressing back in time.

It is not about "regressing back in time" but sorting out the authentic Islamic traditions from the inevitable pollution from various cultures over the time. If regressing back in time involves getting back to basics, then I welcome it.

[Allyourbase]

But Tallaabo, define basics.

 

Also what if said basics contain similar issues that you would disagree with, what then?

[Khayr]

بَلْ عَجِبْتَ وَيَسْخَرُونَ

 

Nay! you wonder while they mock,

 

وَإِذَا ذُكِّرُوا لَا يَذْكُرُونَ

 

And when they are reminded, they mind not,

 

 

وَإِذَا رَأَوْا آيَةً يَسْتَسْخِرُونَ

 

And when they see a sign they incite one another to scoff,

[Khayr]

إِنَّهُمْ كَانُوا إِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا اللَّهُ يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ

 

Surely they used to behave proudly when it was said to them: There is no god but Allah;

[Tallaabo]

Allyourbase;991564 wrote:

But Tallaabo, define basics.

 

Also what if said basics contain similar issues that you would disagree with, what then?

The authentic Islam. The Islam of prophet Mohamed(scw). I would never disagree with the basics whatever they are.

[Allyourbase]

Again Tallaabo, define authentic. I say this because authentic for you may not be authentic for the poster above you. How do you define it? Is it an understanding based on Quran alone? On Quran and Hadiths? On various Tafsiir books?

[Tallaabo]

Allyourbase;991675 wrote:

Again Tallaabo, define authentic. I say this because authentic for you may not be authentic for the poster above you. How do you define it? Is it an understanding based on Quran alone? On Quran and Hadiths? On various Tafsiir books?

By authentic I mean the holy Quran and what can be attributed to prophet Mohamed(scw) beyond reasonable doubt. As the Quran is protected by Almighty Allah from corruption, its authenticity and authority is not disputed but the problem begins with the hadiths, their interpretations and commentary by various scholars over the years, and the subsequent fatwas issued based on these interpretations and the point of views of those who studied these hadiths.

[Allyourbase]

Tallaabo;991678 wrote:

By authentic I mean the holy Quran

and what can be attributed to prophet Mohamed(scw) beyond reasonable doubt

. As the Quran is protected by Almighty Allah from corruption, its authenticity and authority is not disputed but the problem begins with the hadiths, their interpretations and commentary by various scholars over the years, and the subsequent fatwas issued based on these interpretations and the point of views of those who studied these hadiths.

It really is a difficult matter sifting through the thousands of Hadiths one would find in various book. But Muslim scholars have created a system of ranking for Hadiths based on their authenticity and it is:

 

- Sahih (the most authentic of Hadiths, this is as good as it gets and these Hadiths can never be doubted)

 

- Hasan

 

- Daciif

 

- Mucalaq

 

And others that are of unknown origins.

 

 

Now all of the Hadiths that I have provided here are of the Sahih label, so their authenticity can never be doubted. Now what do you do in this case? And this is without going through the various interpretations and commentary.

[Tallaabo]

^ Although the Sahih hadiths are considered to be the most authentic, they like the Christian bible are compiled by collecting bits and pieces from a large number of people in a wide geographic area long after prophet Mohammed(scw) passed away. So their contents can never be free form human error. Among the hadith literature, those sections which deal with day-to-day rituals like prayers, fasting, alms, Hajj, etc. have a higher degree of authenticity because of the large number of people practising these rituals on regular basis from the time when the prophet(scw) was alive. Other sections which deal with rituals and laws that are rarely applied are of course more prone to have errors. In Islam, the Quran is the foremost source of law so for instance if we take your breastfeeding argument as a case study, we see from the holy Quran that these hadiths cannot be taken literally because in the Quran Almighty Allah forbade all mature women from showing off their body to non related males.

" And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss." Quran 24:31

On top of that Allah brought down a special ruling for the wives of the prophet(scw) who are also considered as the mothers of the believers in the following verse:

"And when you ask (his wives) for something you want, ask them from behind a curtain (hijab). That makes for greater purity for your hearts and theirs." (33:53)

[Allyourbase]

You must understand that the breastfeeding rule came as a loophole to that very Quran ruling that you have quoted. As a rule, muslim women are not allowed to reveal themselves to non related males, but the breastfeeding rule came to take non-related males and relate them (somehow) to the women.

 

Its good that you're questioning some Sahih hadiths that you see may be prone to human error. The problem is that your view would be seen by the vast majority of muslims, especially hardliners like DrKenny or Khayr is deviation from the 'right' Islam. In fact some 'bigtime' Sheikhs like Al Suyuuti would brand you a Kafir if you refuse any Sahih Hadith.

[Allyourbase]

We are back

 

I have attempted in previous posts to show how the Hadiths of the prophet (peace be upon him) have many rulings and statements that appeal to the sensibilities of the 7th century layperson. These often include bizarre statements, pseudoscience and much that contradicts our modern understanding of the natural world.

 

Now I have received a few messages stating that these are all Hadiths (however sahih they may be) and it is the Quran that is protected and is in fact infallible. So I am now switching to the Holy Quran, to show you that it is in fact not that different from Hadiths when it comes to unscientific statements.

 

In the Quran there often a confusion of stars and meteorites that light up upon entering the earth's atmosphere. This is a common understanding of meteorites as 'shooting stars' by people of the 7th century. God in the Quran proclaims that stars are in fact missiles directed at jinns:

 

And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with stars/lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.

 

Qur'an 67:5

 

----

 

I had mentioned in previous posts the Prophet's claim in one of the Hadiths that knowing the gender of the fetus or when it would rain is knowledge that no one holds but Allah:

 

-

The prophet claims that no one can possibly know the gender of a baby before its born, and when it will rain

. It might have been impossible when he was alive but we have technologies today that will allow us to know both.

 

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) said, "Keys of the unseen knowledge are five which nobody knows but Allah . . . nobody knows what will happen tomorrow;

nobody knows what is in the womb

; nobody knows what he will gain tomorrow; nobody knows at what place he will die; and

nobody knows when it will rain

."

Sahih Bukhari

2:17:149

A statement that also appears in the Quran:

 

Verily the knowledge of the Hour is with Allah (alone). It is He Who sends down rain, and He Who knows what is in the wombs. Nor does any one know what it is that he will earn on the morrow: Nor does any one know in what land he is to die. Verily with Allah is full knowledge and He is acquainted (with all things).

 

Qur'an 31:34

 

Again for someone living in the 7th century these would appear impossible but today weather forecast and sonograms are very common.

 

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There is also the claim that God had created all creatures in pairs:

 

And of every thing We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction.

 

Qur'an 51:49

 

Which is not the case with with asexual, all-female species like the whiptail lizard which reproduces through parthenogenesis:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis

 

----

 

Humans can not last more than a few days with nourishment, yet the Quran states that it is possible for humans to sleep for over three hundred years!

 

Then We sealed up their hearing in the Cave for a number of years.

 

Qur'an 18:11

 

 

----

 

As to the flatness of the earth we have many statements that claim the earth 'spread out' and like a 'carpet', which for an all knowing all hearing divine is such a small local understanding of the Earth:

 

-Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse,

Qur'an 78:6

 

- And at the Earth, how it is spread out?

Qur'an 88:20

 

- He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels);

Qur'an 20:53

[Khayr]

Offbase,

 

I think that you have a learning disability. It is not the fault of

Islam that you can not understand the Quran and Hadith.

I feel sorry for you. انت مريضٌ جِداً

 

Good luck with your search for carpets!

[Allyourbase]

Carpets are found in your Quran brother Khayr, dont shoot the (wait for it.. ) messenger (ha!)

 

[Tallaabo]

Mr Allyourbase you have no argument here. Stars like bombs do produce projectiles when they explode in supernova. I am sure you don't want to get close to one. And yes all the living things are in pairs. The species you posted are also in pairs(male and female) regardless of how they reproduce. As for the earth, Allah indicated that it is a spherical body when he me revealed this verse and others like it.

"It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course." Quran 21:33

Although it is spherical, due to its immense size and gravitational pull this planet gives us the impression that it is spread out and flat. It is indeed this carpet-like property of the earth which makes it so homely and secure which Almighty Allah is asking us to think about as a blessing from Him.

[Khayr]

Offbase,

 

I am sorry about your over stay in grammar school and no for the last time, I will not give you a recommendation to graduate.