Richard Dawking mocked the Muslim World's intellectual inferiority

[DoctorKenney]

There are rulings when it comes to following men based on their religious knowledge. And rulings when it comes to following them based on their secular knowledge. I won't go to Ibn Baaz when I have a question about chemistry or physics, and I actually never even mentioned Ibn Baaz in my post. And regarding his claim that the Earth is stationary and is orbited by the Sun, he was heard and his followers were heard denying he ever believed that, or that his words were taken out of context, or whatever. Men are allowed to make mistakes, and repent from those mistakes, and its obvious that he never believed in this when he died. And the whole "suckling" argument was refuted by Al Munajjid when he proved (through Surah 2:233) that this ruling only applies during the first 2 years of your life. After that, its not possible to breastfeed a grown adult.

 

Right now we're talking about rulings, and Wizard claiming that seeking scientific knowledge is forbidden in Islam, which I stated is false.

 

And in Islam, individual Sheikhs are never taken as an authority (on religious rulings). What's taken as an authority is the CONSENSUS. ie. What they all agree on, and then cross-reference on whether their beliefs are in accordance to the evidences. Each individual person is prone to making mistakes, which is why we look towards what they collectively believe, and hope that their collective beliefs are correct.

[DoctorKenney]

Again, AllYourBase is doing something which I already criticized in the previous page.

 

That you can't find some obscure ruling by an Individual Sheikh and then claim that it is the view of all Muslims. These men are not infallible and even men such as Umar bin Khattab made mistakes and were prone to making errors.

 

What's infallible is the religion of Allah. But men and women are definitely prone to making errors. This is something we all agree on.

 

So the strange statements by someone here and there shouldn't be taken as proof of anything. And their opinions only matter when it comes to religious rulings, and nothing else.

[Miyir]

“Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason, and the mind becomes a wreck.”

 

 

― Thomas Jefferson

[Miyir]

Allyourbase;990881 wrote:

I choose not to believe in these guys, and not to believe in their ignorance and hate. I am tired of listening to weird Arabic garbage from my people day in day out, and whenever I voice my objections I am labeled anti Islam and anti dhaqan, which in itself is a laughable claim. I do not mind the form of islam practiced by our parents and grandparents even if I do not believe in it, but it was a spiritual path that allowed people to practice and act how they wanted without fear of persecution by thought or dress police. The only reason we are seeing this alien, ugly form of religion imposed on us today is because we are poor, needy and weak. They use their deep pockets to bring us closer to their sick ideology.

 

And that, I REFUSE.

 

Theology is ignorance with wings.”

― Sam Harris

[Allyourbase]

DoctorKenney;990905 wrote:

There are rulings when it comes to following men based on their religious knowledge. And rulings when it comes to following them based on their secular knowledge. I won't go to Ibn Baaz when I have a question about chemistry or physics, and I actually never even mentioned Ibn Baaz in my post. And regarding his claim that the Earth is stationary and is orbited by the Sun, he was heard and his followers were heard denying he ever believed that, or that his words were taken out of context, or whatever. Men are allowed to make mistakes, and repent from those mistakes, and its obvious that he never believed in this when he died. And the whole "suckling" argument was refuted by Al Munajjid when he proved (through Surah 2:233) that this ruling only applies during the first 2 years of your life. After that, its not possible to breastfeed a grown adult.

 

Right now we're talking about rulings, and Wizard claiming that seeking scientific knowledge is forbidden in Islam, which I stated is false.

 

And in Islam, individual Sheikhs are never taken as an authority (on religious rulings). What's taken as an authority is the CONSENSUS. ie. What they all agree on, and then cross-reference on whether their beliefs are in accordance to the evidences. Each individual person is prone to making mistakes, which is why we look towards what they collectively believe, and hope that their collective beliefs are correct.

You are missing the larger point. Your whole argument was pertaining to the act of Fatwa Shopping from obscure Sheikhs, and then you went on name your non obscure (Thiqaat) Sheikhs implying that they actually are in any way better than the many random Sheikhs with bizarre Fatwas we always see. So I just went ahead to show you they were in fact even more absurd in some of their claims, to which my point still stands. When I am pointing these guys you think of as religious or perhaps moral guides and stating their strange and sometimes laughable claims and ideas what I am trying to show you is how simple they actually are as men. If you can not trust a man to be aware of simple facts that surround him, I am talking very basic laws of the universe, of science, to make mistakes (hey, we all make them) on such a basic level of thought, how would they in any way be worthy of the high status you bestow upon them?

 

Forget about Bin Baz and just look at your named Sheikhs. One of them is actually against the basic idea of the Earth orbiting the sun, an other is dwelling on the very important matter of the suckling of a grown man (the Sheikh I mentioned in that part of my post was not bin baz in fact, it was one of the super Sheikhs mr. Al Albany) one of your named heroes.

 

We have the childish Al Munjid who believes that there is a god somewhere who was so angry at all of those sinners that he sent them cadaab biblical style in the case of hurricane Sandy. Dont you see how terrible of a statement this is?

 

 

 

DoctorKenney;990906 wrote:

Again, AllYourBase is doing something which I already criticized in the previous page.

 

That you can't find some obscure ruling by an Individual Sheikh and then claim that it is the view of all Muslims

. These men are not infallible and even men such as Umar bin Khattab made mistakes and were prone to making errors.

 

What's infallible is the religion of Allah. But men and women are definitely prone to making errors. This is something we all agree on.

 

So the strange statements by someone here and there shouldn't be taken as proof of anything. And their opinions only matter when it comes to religious rulings, and nothing else.

So there are non obscure ruling and obscure ones now? Dude, you said the same thing and went on and named your untouchable thiqaat culimaa and I just presented their thoughts to you. You can not call that Fatwa shopping from obscure Sheikhs, these guys form the corner stone of the Wahabi Islam and are held very high as evident here by yourself.

[Tallaabo]

DoctorKenney;990788 wrote:

I can find Sheikhs claiming that Homosexuality is permitted in Islam. Doesn't mean it's true.

It's such a basic and weak argument, that it doesn't require any thinking

.

How could you refute the reasoning of those sheikhs who say homosexuality is permitted in Islam without thinking? You are implying that you just follow the herd.

 

DoctorKenney;990788 wrote:

The vast majority of scholars, men such as Ibn Taymiyyah, Qayyim, Abdul Wahhab, and even contemporary Sheikhs like Albaani and Al Uthaymeen and Al Munajjid state otherwise. But according to you, you want to overlook the vast examples stating otherwise and focus on a select few which confirm your bias.

 

Pathetic.

Just because a large number of today's Muslim scholars agree with the honest opinions of some eminent medieval scholars does not mean that what is agrees upon is necessarily correct.

[DoctorKenney]

Yes, Allyourbase, there are such things as "non obscure rulings" and "obscure rulings". The only thing we can do is take the rulings of religious scholars on scientific matters with a grain of salt. They are experts on Fiqh and Aqeedah only, but when it comes to secular knowledge then they are not authorities at all. And if they overstep their authority and make statements without knowledge about science, then it doesn't and shouldn't reflect badly on their rulings on Islam. And that ruling regarding breastfeeding someone in the aim of making them your Mahram, that's a bizarre understanding and is totally incorrect, and it is refuted by the Sahabi Ibn Umar: Al-Muwatta Malik (Volume 2, Hadith 603) Ibn Umar said: “There is no breastfeeding except for the one who is breastfed in infancy; there is no breastfeeding for one who is grown up.”

 

If Uthaymeen or Ibn Baaz take their own understanding of something, and get it completely wrong. Then that's on them. They made a mistake, and I don't care to justify their mistake or appease it. They are not astronomers, and they are experts on Fiqh, that's it. And sometimes these men repent from their mistakes a few years later, and denounce their earlier statements, such as in the example of Ibn Baaz.

 

It doesn't really prove anything. These men were correct at times and incorrect at times. If they were correct, then alhamdulilah. If they're incorrect, then that's on them, and may Allah forgive them for their errors.

[DoctorKenney]

Tallaabo;990927 wrote:

How could you refute the reasoning of those sheikhs who say homosexuality is permitted in Islam without thinking? You are implying that you just follow the herd.

 

 

Just because a large number of today's Muslim scholars agree with the honest opinions of some eminent medieval scholars does not mean that what is agrees upon is necessarily correct.

Tallaabo, this is because there are Hadiths which outright forbid it. The Companions of the Prophet forbade it. And the 4 Madhabs and the thousands of Sheikhs over the last 14 centuries unanimously condemned it. So yes, I do believe it's not permitted.

[Allyourbase]

DoctorKenney;990935 wrote:

Yes, Allyourbase, there are such things as "non obscure rulings" and "obscure rulings". The only thing we can do is take the rulings of religious scholars on scientific matters with a grain of salt. They are experts on Fiqh and Aqeedah only, but when it comes to secular knowledge then they are not authorities at all. And if they overstep their authority and make statements without knowledge about science, then it doesn't and shouldn't reflect badly on their rulings on Islam.

And that ruling regarding breastfeeding someone in the aim of making them your Mahram, that's a bizarre understanding and is totally incorrect

, and it is refuted by the Sahabi Ibn Umar: Al-Muwatta Malik (Volume 2, Hadith 603) Ibn Umar said: “There is no breastfeeding except for the one who is breastfed in infancy; there is no breastfeeding for one who is grown up.”

 

If Uthaymeen or Ibn Baaz take their own understanding of something, and get it completely wrong. Then that's on them. They made a mistake, and I don't care to justify their mistake or appease it. They are not astronomers, and they are experts on Fiqh, that's it. And sometimes these men repent from their mistakes a few years later, and denounce their earlier statements, such as in the example of Ibn Baaz.

 

It doesn't really prove anything. These men were correct at times and incorrect at times. If they were correct, then alhamdulilah. If they're incorrect, then that's on them, and may Allah forgive them for their errors.

Not to dwell on this point but hold on a second..

 

 

Are you telling me that your 'mother', Um Al Mu'miniin Aisha the wife of your Prophet is performing an act that is bizarre? That she is indeed incorrect?

 

I say this because Aisha, wife of the Prophet of Islam did indeed practice this 'bizarre' ritual, whereby if she wanted a man who is a stranger to her to come to her quarters and become 'Mahram' she would order her sisters and their daughters to allow those men to suckle on them.

 

This is from Malik's Muwata':

 

فأخذت بذلك عائشة أم المؤمنين فيمن كانت تحب أن يدخل عليها من الرجال فكانت تأمر أختها أم كلثوم بنت أبي بكر الصديق وبنات أخيها أن يرضعن من أحبت أن يدخل عليها من الرجال وأبى سائر أزواج النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أن يدخل عليهن بتلك الرضاعة

Its really bizarre and evidently so by the refusal of the prophet's other wives to practice this.

[DoctorKenney]

Allyourbase, this view is indeed incorrect, and the consensus from scholars such as Ibn Umar, Umar ibn Khattab, Ali, Abu Hurayrah, Ibn Masu'd, Ibn Abbas and all the wives of the Prophet (with the exception of Aisha) state clearly that breastfeeding is only valid for the first 2 years of someone's life. You can't breastfeed an adult.

 

So yes, Aisha was incorrect. But for you to search for bizarre rulings and then claim that it is indicative of the whole religion is dishonest. You want to take these rulings, and then claim that Islam is unanimously in support of it. I have news for you: In many matters of Fiqh, there is no single correct answer. And those who make rulings can be wrong from time to time. But this is entirely out of topic, and this thread has devolved into nothing more than you trying to bring up points against the religion, which has nothing to do with the thread topic. All you've managed to do, is prove to us that scholars do get it wrong sometimes. And this is something we all knew about beforehand. Unlike other religions, we don't worship our learned ones, and we're honest enough to admit that these scholars can be wrong sometimes.

 

And if you have any questions regarding Fiqh and Hadith rulings and the like, then visit: http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/

 

It's a forum where you can register and ask questions.

[Allyourbase]

No I did not.

 

You were flaming an other poster here for bringing the ideas of what you called obscure Sheikhs, and started to name your non obscure ones. So I just came along and brought forth the opinions of your own heroes in matters of interest to this discussion of science. I have proved that some of the highest Wahabi scholars that you yourself have named are indeed so simple and dare I say gullible (and ****** in fact) to utter statements such as:

 

- The Earth is stationary and the Sun orbits the Earth.

 

- Hurricanes that we have perfect scientific explanation for today are merely 'messages' from a vengeful 'God'.

 

- The suckling of grown *** men by muslim women somehow makes them Mahram for them!

 

All in an attempt to show you your wrong ways but you refuse to listen. I am attempting to show you that these simpletons are in fact fraud, they do not possess the most basic of human intellect and would actually be laughed at by primary 1 pupils. Yet you are still firm that they make for worthy religious and moral guides.

 

I have even went out of my way to show you how the point that you yourself found bizarre and morally and religiously unaccepted was actually performed by the wife of your prophet. Just so you can see how human those who lived back then are, human in their needs and human in their methods of achieving those needs. She did not mind making up this ritual and give a religious aura just so she can do what she wanted. Now why would the other names that you have mentioned be different when someone so close to your prophet, someone who narrated half of your 'deen' and was one of the major retellers of the prophets adventures was acting with such disregard to the morals you hold so close?

 

It is all fraud my friend, and I really think you are lost, I am just trying to bring you back to the 'fitra' of humans. You should use your mind, your powers of reason, of intellect more often.

 

Join me, brother!!!

[DoctorKenney]

They're frauds because some of them made some mistakes, mistakes which some of them actually repented from years later? You want to define these Sheikhs by singular statements despite them writing volumes of books on my topics?

 

And Aisha came up with this ruling because she genuinely believed it was a valid ruling ....stop trying to make it seem as if she instituted this ruling out of her personal interests, as you have no evidence of this.

 

And fine, you can dislike these Sheikhs and disagree with them. In fact, any Muslim can. It's irrelevant either way.

[Allyourbase]

DoctorKenney;990962 wrote:

And Aisha came up with this ruling because she genuinely believed it was a valid ruling ....stop trying to make it seem as if she instituted this ruling out of her personal interests, as you have no evidence of this.

 

What more evidence do you need?

 

 

She went against the 'ijmaac' of her fellow prophet wives and other so called Sahaba to do something that is viewed (even by yourself!!!) to be bizarre and strange and immoral by anyones standard. And that is the wife of your prophet!

[DoctorKenney]

I never said it was immoral. I was it was strange. Aisha thought it was a valid ruling and thats why she preached it. And Aisha was a human and capable of making errors

[Allyourbase]

She exploited the religion to get men who are not related to her to access her quarters. That sounds immoral to me brother