The Culuu(Transcendence) of Allah

[Salafi_Online]

A glimpse of Tawheed(the oneness of Allah)

 

Intro:

 

The Evidence that of Allaah is Above Creation.

Know, may Allaah’s Mercy be upon me and you, that the Attribute of Transcendence (‘uluw) of Allaah, the Exalted, is of two types. Our shaykh, Muhammad bin Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen said concerning these types:

 

[(a) The ‘uluw of adh-dhaat The Transcendence of Allaah in His Essence.

 

(b) The ‘uluw of the sifaat: The Transcendence of Allaah’s Attributes. The ‘uluw of adh-dhaat means that Allaah ï‰ in His Essence is above everything, and everything is below Him, Most Majestic and Mighty is He.

 

Regarding the ‘uluw of the sifaat, it means that Allaah is qualified with the superlative qualities as He, the Most High, said:

 

[And for Allaah is the Highest Description.

[Qur’aan, soorat an-Nahl (16):60)].

 

Every Attribute which Allaah qualified Himself with is an Attribute of Perfection and in every respect is free from any kind of imperfection.

If you ask: “What is the reason behind this kind of classification? Do you have a proof of it from the Qur’aan or the sunnah? Did you find this in the sayings of the sahaabah?

 

The answer is: “No! But I found it to be necessary when it has been determined that the people of negation (an-nufaat), who themselves are

ahlu-ta’teel (those who deny the Attributes), restrict the ‘uluw to the sifaat (qualities) only. They said that Allaah’s Transcendence is in His sifaat only not in His Essence. The people of ta’teel (ahlu-ta’teel) themselves became divided regarding the ‘uluw of adh-dhaat, as discussed below.

 

What is important is that the Imaams of as-salaf-us-saalih ( ﻢﻬﲪﺭ ï·²ïº ) and the scholars who came after resorted to this classification out of necessity because they were tested by the people of ta’teel (who denied the ‘uluw of adh-dhaat), and thus they were obligated to affirm the Transcendence in this way. In fact, if we say “Allaah is the Most High,†and if someone from the people of ta’teel says that, “the ‘uluw here relates to His Attributes,†then what would the common Muslim understand? The only thing he will understand is that Allaah is qualified with the ‘uluw of the sifaat only. But if we say, “Allaah is Most High in His sifaat as well as in His Essence,†the common Muslim would understand this meaning. In fact, the first thing that is obvious to the common Muslim is that Allaah’s ‘uluw concerns His Essence. Certainly the ‘uluw of the sifaat is part of the meaning of the ‘uluw.

 

In their denial of the ‘uluw of Allaah’s in His Essence, the people of ta’teel were divided into two groups:

 

The first group: They said that Allaah, in His Essence, is everywhere.

 

The second group: They said, “He is neither in ‘uluw (loftiness) nor in sufl (opposite of ‘uluw: lowness); He is neither inside the world nor outside it; neither to the right nor to the left; neither joined nor separate.

 

This position is absolute ta’teel (negation) because it is a description of al-’adam (non-existence). Some scholars said, “If we were asked to describe al-’adam we would not find a more comprehensive definition than this description [of theirs].â€

 

So contemplate as to how their negation of what has been affirmed by the way of naql (texts) and ‘aql (rational) led them to say that which cannot be accepted neither by sensory perception (hiss), nor by naql or ‘aql.

 

The Proofs for the ‘uluw (Transcendence) of Allaah

We have explained earlier that the ‘uluw of Allaah is proven by the way of the kitaab (the Book, i.e. the Qur’aan), the sunnah, ijmaa’ (general consensus of the salaf), ‘aql, and fitrah. The proofs of the Book and sunnah

are diverse. Sometimes indicating the absolute ‘uluw. Other times indicating

al-Fawqiyyah (above): the descent of things from Him, and their ascent to Him; and sometimes by saying that He is in heavens.

 

(1) In the case of absolute‘uluw like in the saying of Allaah ï•:

 

[He [Allaah] is the Most High,

the Most Great.And make tasbeeh [declaring that Allaah is far removed above all imperfection] of your Rabb, the Most High, above everything. [Qur’aan,soorat al-A’laa (87:1)].

 

Others state the Fawqiyyah [Allaah being above creation], as in Allaah’s

saying:

 

[and He [Allaah] is al-Qaahir above His slaves. [Qur’aan, soorat al-An’aam (6:18)].

And in His Saying:

 

[They fear their Lord above them, and they do what they are commanded..[Qur’aan, soorat an-Nahl (16: 50)].

 

[And(remember) when Allaah said: O `Eesa (Jesus)! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you (of the forged statement that ‘Eesa (Jesus) is Allaah's son) of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you (Monotheists, who worship none but Allaah) superior to those who disbelieve (in the Oneness of Allaah, or disbelieve in some of His Messengers, e.g. Muhammad ‘Eesa (Jesus), Musa (Moses), etc., or

in His Holy Books, e.g. the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), the Qur'aan) till the Day of Resurrection. [Qur’aan, soorat aal-‘Imraaan (3:55)].

 

Allaah’s Saying: ﻚﻌﻓïºïº­ï»­ ﱠﱄﺇ indicates that the one to whom ‘Eesa is being raised is qualified with the Attribute of ‘uluw (Transcendence). Shaykh bin ‘Uthaymeen ( ﻪﲪﺭ ï·²ïº ) commented: if someone says that what is intended here is that Allaah is raising him in rank, then our response is: “This is incorrect, because the raising here has been followed with the letter ï»™ kaaf which is

specific to the process of raising, raising the body (of ‘Eesa), not the raising of his rank. So, this is a proof for the Allaah’s Transcendence of al-Fawqiyyah (being above creation).

 

Some aayaat (verses) mention the su’ood (ascent) of things up to Him ï•:

 

To Him ascend [all] the goodly words, and the righteous deeds exalt it [the goodly words, i.e. the goodly words are not accepted by Allaah unless

and until they are followed by good deeds].

 

[Qur’aan, soorat Faatir (35:10)].

The angels and the rooh [Jibreel ïµ] ascend to Him.

[Qur’aan, soorat al-Ma’aarij (70:4)].

 

Sometimes the Qur’aan mentions the descent of things from Him ï‰:

 

[He [Allaah] arranges [every] affair from the heavens to the earth.

[Qur’aan, soorat as-Sajdah (32:5)].

 

Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the thikr [i.e. the Qur’aan].

 

[Qur’aan, soorat al-Hijr (15:9)].

In the Qur’aan there is also the affirmation that Allaah ï‰ is above the heavens:

 

Do you feel secure that He, who is above the heaven [Allaah], will not cause the earth to sink. [Qur’aan, soorat al-Mulk (67:16)].

 

In addition to the above aayaat, there are many other references in the

Qur’aan which affirm the ‘uluw of Allaah.

 

(2) Similarly the sunnah affirms Allaah’s ‘uluw in His Essence by way of saying, action, and approval. The affirmation in the saying is as in the statement of the Prophet (ï²):

 

Our Rabb is Allaah Who is above the heaven...â€

And in his action as when he pointed towards the heavens when he said:

 

“O! Allaah be witness [saying it thrice],†before the greatest assembly of Muslims then.

 

As to his approval, the Prophet asked a slave girl: "Where is Allaah?" She

replied: “Above the heavens.†He then ordered her master, “Grant her freedom,

because she is a believer.†So, this slave girl knows that her Rabb (Allaah) is above the heavens while the misguided of the children of Adam deny that Allaah is above the heavens and say that he is neither above the world nor below it, nor to the left or to the right! or that they say He is everywhere!!

 

The prophet not only accepted her answer, but also affirmed that she is a believer based upon her correct response.

 

(3) As for the ijmaa’ (consensus), it is acknowledged that the salaf are in agreement that Allaah is above His ‘arsh. No one among them had ever said that He is everywhere or that He is neither above the world nor below it, or that He is neither to the right nor to the left, or that He is neither separated from the world nor ssociated with it, or that it is not permissible to physically point to Allaah (i.e. in the upward direction).

 

(4) On the other hand, the proof of the ‘aql (intellect), has two angles to it:

 

1. The ‘uluw is an attribute of perfection and therefore being as such necessitates that it is an affirmed attribute of Allaah because Allaah is

qualified with the attributes of perfection from every angle.

 

2. For the sake of argument, if we say that, “Allaah is either above the world or under it or on its right or left,†then which of these descriptions denote perfection? The answer is, “Allaah is above the world,†because if he is

“under it†then He would be less perfect than the created! And if He is in the same place as the created, then Allaah Jala wa cala would be equal to creation in perfection. Thus it is necessitated that Allaah is above everything. In addition, there is no doubt that Allaah, the Most Magnificent, the Most Mighty, is not in the “below†or amongst us, because this would necessitate that some of His creation is above Him or with him. So, if this is impossible, then by all means to Allaah belongs the perfect Transcendence above creation and the perfect Rank and complete authority.

 

(5) Finally, as far as the fitrah (natural inclination or disposition) is concerned, each person naturally acknowledges the fact that Allaah is above the heavens. That is why whenever a person supplicates His Rabb (Allaah) he (she) takes refuge towards the direction of the sky (i.e. upward).

 

In this regard it is noteworthy to mention that because Abul Ma’aali al- Juwayyni, may Allaah bestow His Mercy upon him and forgive him, denied

the ascending of Allaah above the ‘arsh (istiwaa’ ‘ala al-’arsh) and the ‘uluw of Allaah in His Essence, he had decided that, “Allaah was and there was nothing, and He is now as He ever has been,†denying the istiwaa’ ‘ala al-’arsh. Abul ‘Alaa al-Hamadaani, may Allaah bestow His mercy upon him, said, “Teacher! There is no need to mention the ‘arsh. Just tell us about this necessity which we find within ourselves: Whenever an ‘aarif (one who knows of Allaah) says: ‘O! Allaah,’ he finds within his heart a compelling intent aspiring upward? Al-Juwayyni slapped his hands against his head screaming, “Al-Hamadani rendered me perplexed. Al-Hamadaani rendered me perplexed.†He was unable to respond because the matter is natural and cannot be denied.

 

The strange thing is that those who deny the Transcendence of Allaah themselves raise their hands upward in the direction of the heavens when

they invoke Allaah. I do not know of the situation of the person who believes that Allaah is everywhere in His Essence or that He is not inside the world nor outside it or He is neither above nor below, how is he going to face His Rabb on the Day of Resurrection? Clarification of Some Verses

 

First Verse:

 

[Do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allaah), will not cause the earth to sink with you, and then it should quake? Or do you

feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allaah), will not sendagainst you a violent whirlwind? Then you shall know how (terrible)

has been My Warning. [Qur’aan, soorat al-Mulk (67:16-17)].

 

The One Who is Fee as-Samaa’ (read: fis-Samaa’: above the heavens) is

Allaah. This is evidence that Allaah, Himself, is above the heavens. It remains to be clarified that the preposition fee (ﰲ) is, linguistically, a term that denotes tharfiyyah: the quality of denoting place, or time, adverbially, by a noun implying the meaning of the preposition fee; Also, according to some, by a noun together with that preposition. So, fis-Samaa’ (fee heavens):

if fee is a term denoting tharfiyyah, then this would imply that Allaah is enveloped by the heavens. Such apparent implication is futile since we certainly know that it is not the intended meaning (i.e. Allaah is “inâ€

heavens), because it is impossible that apparently understood meanings of the Qur’aan and/or Sunnah are futile. So what is the answer regarding this issue? The scholars answered by either one of the following ways:

 

1-That the term as-Samaa’ here means al-‘uluw (being over), something which is not only linguistically sound, but it is mentioned in the Qur’aan with such meaning. Allaah, the Most High, says regarding the sending of rain:

 

[He sends down water (rain) from as-Samaa’ and the valleys flow totheir measure. [Qur’aan, soorat ar-Ra’d (13:17)], that is from above, since raincomes down from the clouds, not from the sky which is a safe and wellguarded roof [Qur'aan, soorat al-Anbiyyaa', (21:32)]:

 

“And We have made the heaven a roof, safe and well guarded†[Qur’aan,soorat al-Anbiyaa’, (21: 32)]

 

Therefore, the meaning of fis-Samaa’ is the One Who is above, nothing is above or adjacent to Him, everything is below Him.

 

2-Or, that fee means over. In this case as-samaa’ is the lofty, safe and well guarded heavenly bodies (al-ajraam as-samaawiyyah). From the linquistic view as well as in the Qur’anic text, the term fee is used to mean: “on.†In the Qur’aan, Fir’awn (the Pharoah) said to his magicians who rejected him and believed in Allaah:

 

"And I will surely crucify you on the trunks of date-palms. [Qur’aan, sooratTaaha (20:71)]

 

Similarly in the saying of Allaah:

[say (O Muhammad ï²): Travel in the land and see what the end of thosewho rejected truth was. [Qur’aan, soorat al-An’aam (6:11)].

 

Certainly, the term fee (in the land) means “on†it.So, the meaning of fis-samaa’ is One Who is over the heavens. And therefore, after these clarifications, there should be no problem

walhamdulillaah.

 

In Conclusion From the above evidences it is concluded that:

 

1-The knowledge of Allaah being above the creation is an ingrained matter in our fitrah.

2-Since Allaah, His Messenger, and the righteous predecessors have affirmed the ‘uluw of Allaah, then it is not accepted from anyone to come and say that it is impossible for Allaah, in His Essence, to be above creation, because had it been so, it would imply such and such. Because had there been any kind a false implication in the textual proofs, Allaah and/or His Messenger would have clarified them. But since they do not imply such arguments, then they are true and affirm the correct meaning of ‘uluw. Therefore the evidences refute both the hulooliyyah and the mu’atilah who negate this Attribute of Allaah ﻰﻟﺎﻌﺗ. The hulooliyyah say, “Allaah is not

above everything but rather He is everywhere.†And the Mu’attilah, the people who deny Allaah’s Attributes, say, “He cannot be described as being

High or low, to the left or the right, or as being separated from or associated with His creation.â€

 

 

4-The ‘uluw of Allaah is Eternally affirmed to Him, the Most High. He is always above everything before the creation of the Throne. It is not

imperative that not ascending the Throne is a proof of non-transcendence. He is always qualified with the absolute ‘uluw, and after creating the heavens and the earth, He arose above the Throne. The latter is a special

‘uluw. And Allaah, the Most Perfect in His Actions, does what He wishes. This does not imply any imperfection, since all of His actions are perfect.

 

Authored By Dr.Saleh As Saleh

[bananaamprice]

Salam Alykum...

 

The proofs from the Qur`an and the Sunnah require a deep understanding of the science of men and the Arabic language. Therefore, I will limit this missive to criticize the Aql proof provided in the above article. I am sure that all of us here are thinking beings. So, in his name we begin....

 

(4) On the other hand, the proof of the ‘aql (intellect), has two angles to it:

 

1. The ‘uluw is an attribute of perfection and therefore being as such necessitates that it is an affirmed attribute of Allaah because Allaah is

qualified with the attributes of perfection from every angle.

 

 

2. For the sake of argument, if we say that, “Allaah is either above the world or under it or on its right or left,†then which of these descriptions denote perfection? The answer is, “Allaah is above the world,†because if he is

“under it†then He would be less perfect than the created! And if He is in the same place as the created, then Allaah Jala wa cala would be equal to creation in perfection. Thus it is necessitated that Allaah is above everything. In addition, there is no doubt that Allaah, the Most Magnificent, the Most Mighty, is not in the “below†or amongst us, because this would necessitate that some of His creation is above Him or with him. So, if this is impossible, then by all means to Allaah belongs the perfect Transcendence above creation and the perfect Rank and complete authority.

 

(5) Finally, as far as the fitrah (natural inclination or disposition) is concerned, each person naturally acknowledges the fact that Allaah is above the heavens. That is why whenever a person supplicates His Rabb (Allaah) he (she) takes refuge towards the direction of the sky (i.e. upward).

 

The author of this article failed to rationally prove how physical ascension (‘uluw), a physical attribute, can be applied to Allah, a non-physical entity, exalted is he from everything that is physical and impure. Not only does the author attribute physical ascension to Allah, he goes further to say that it is "an attribute of perfection"!

 

Allow me to illustrate to you what the author is saying by using the Banana analogy:

 

He is stating that it is possible to attribute ignorance to a Banana! However, a rational person will object and say: How can you attribute ignorance to something devoid of all faculties that enable it to gain knowledge? A Banana by definition is something that can not gain knowledge or lose it. Therefore, saying that "a Banana is ignorant" is simply absurd and meaningless.

 

Likewise, physical ascension does not; in anyway, apply to a non-physical being. Left, right, above, below, big, small, fat, skinny are all temporal and relative terms that do not apply to an absolute entity, such as Allah, exalted is he from what they ascribe to him. These attributes can only apply to something which is limited by the fabric of time and space. However, Allah, by definition, is not limited by anything. Therefore, to say that he is physically above his creation is tantamount to saying that he is limited. And anything that is limited is surely not infinite, and thus, it can not be a diety.

 

Wa salam

 

Praise is due to Allah whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so, whom the height of intellectual courage cannot appreciate, and the divings of understanding cannot reach; He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed. He brought forth creation through His Omnipotence, dispersed winds through His Compassion, and made firm the shaking earth with rocks.

 

The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute. Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like, and who recognises His like regards Him two; and who regards Him two recognises parts for Him; and who recognises parts for Him mistook Him; and who mistook Him pointed at Him; and who pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and who admitted limitations for Him numbered Him.

 

Whoever said in what is He, held that He is contained; and whoever said on what is He held He is not on something else. He is a Being but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence.

[Sharmarkee]

بسم ألله الرحمن الرحيم

الحمد لله رب العالمين والصلاة والسلام علي أشر٠المرسلين، ولاعدوان الي علي الظالمين.

اللهم بعلمك الغيب وقدرتك علي الخلق أحيني ما كانت الحياة خيرا لي، وتوÙني ادا كانت الوÙاة خيرا لي، اللهم Ùˆ اسألك خشيتك ÙÙŠ الغيب والشهاده، واسألك كلمة الحق ÙÙŠ الغضب والرضا، وأسالك القصد الÙقر والغني، واسألك نعيما لاينÙد، Ùˆ أسألك قرة عين لا تنقطع، وأسألك برد العيش بعد الموت، وأسألك لذة النظر ألي وجهك،والشوق ألي لقاءك ÙÙŠ غير ضراء مضرة، ولا Ùتنة مضلة، اللهم زينا بزينه الايمان ÙÙŠ قلوبنا،واجعلنا هداة مهتدين غير ضالين، ولا مضلين، سلما علي أولياءيك،حربا علي أعدءك،نحب بحبك من يحبك ونعادي بعداوتك من خالÙÙƒ.

اما بعد، ÙÙŠ مثل يقول ادا عر٠السبب بظل العجب.

Ùياأخي ابوالكلام الملقب بلمتكلم، اعلم المنهج الÙلسÙÙŠ الكلامي ىيختل٠عن المنهج الاسلامي، Ùلمنهج الÙلسÙÙŠ يشغل الباحث والناظر Ùيه ÙÙŠ قضايا ينقضي العمر ولا ينتهي من بعضيها، بل ان الدى يحصله منها ينطوي علي شبهات تجعل اليىقىن غير موجود Ùىياصب الباحث بلحيره والشك والاضطراب.

أما المنهج القرأني Ùانه يجعل Ùاتحة دعوته ودعوةالرسل جميعا: الدعوة الي عبادة وحده ﴿وماأرسلنا من قبلك من رسول إلا نوحي إلىه انه لا إله إلا أنا Ùاعبدون ï´¾ . ﴿اعبدوا الله مالكم من إله غيره﴾ يطالبهم بعبادته بلقلب،وبللسان،وعبادته بالجوارح،وعبادة الله متضمنه لمعرÙته وذكره. وأصل العلم هو العلم بلله سبحانه،لاحس ولا البدهيات. ومن العلم به تتشعب أنواع العلوم،وعبادته وقصده تتشعب وجوه المقاصد الصالحه،والقلب بعبادته والا ستعانة به معتصم متمسك قد لجأ إلي ركن وثيق، واعتصم بلدليل الهادي، والبرهان الوثيق، Ùلا ىزال إما زيادة ÙÙŠ العلم والإيمان،وإما ÙÙŠ السلامة عن الجهل والكÙران. Ùلعلم بلله - أعظم سبىل ÙÙŠ الله ومعرÙØ© الحياة،والأشياءو معرÙØ©

النÙس الأنسانيه. وهكدا يقول ابن ابي حاتم )عرÙناكل شيء بلله(ØŒ وسءل ابن عباس بم عرÙت ربك ØŸ قال من طلب دينه بالقياس لم يزل دهره ÙÙŠ التباس، ظاعناÙÙŠ الاعوجاج،راءغا عن المنهاج، أعرÙÙ‡ بما عر٠نÙسه، وأصÙÙ‡ بماوص٠به Ù†Ùسه(،وقال تعالي ﴿ولله المثل الاعلي﴾Ùيا أخي المتبختر ان الطريقة المتكلمين ما عندهم إيمان مجمل ولايعطي علما واÙياولا تصورا واضحا.ولكن القرأن يص٠لنا ربنا وأن له وجها،ويدا،وسمعاوبصراويعددلنا أسماه وصÙاته= Ùهوالحمن الرحيم،الملك،القدس،السلام،الموءمن،المهيمن،العزيز الجبار ... ويعرÙنا بأÙعاله ومخلوقته،ويص٠لناالقيامه وأهوالها،والجنة والنار كأننا نراهما.Ùلا لقاء بين الدّين والÙلسÙÙ‡ Ùمنهما منهجان مختلÙتان،ÙÙŠ البدايه والنهايه،والطريق والأسلوب،وÙÙŠ التأثير والعطاء،والمنابع والمصادر.

Ùيأخي المتبختر، قاوم العلماء الاتجاه ألي الخلط مباحث العقيده بلÙلسÙه، الخلد الدين يعرÙون بÙلاسÙØ© الأسلام كابن سينا،وحاربوا الذين ثاثروا بهذه الÙلسÙات والتي اصبحت تعر٠بعلم الكلام. Ùلعلماء الذين تنبهوا كالامام الشاÙعي وامام أحمد،وكدلك قال الشاÙعي حكمي ÙÙŠ أهل الكلام أن يضربوا بلجريد والنعال،ويطا٠بهم Ùيالقباءل والعشاءر، ويقال هذا من ترك الكتاب والسنه وأقبل علي الكلام(.

وقسم أخر من العلماء خاض Ùيما خاض المتكلمون ولم ينتبهوا والشمس العمر تميل الي الغروب، Ùتندّ موا، وان يحدروا سلوك الطريق الخاطءي Ù†Ùسه الذي ساروا Ùيه: منهم هّولاء محمد بن عمر الرازي وقال ÙÙŠ كتابه أقسام اللذات:

نهاية إقدام العقول عقال وغاية سعي العلمين ضلال

وأرواحنا ÙÙŠ وحشة من جسومنا وحاصل دنينا أذي ووبال

ولم نستÙيد من بحثنا طول عمرنا سوي أن جمعنا قيل وقالوا

Ùكم قد رأينا رجالا ودولة Ùبادوا جميعا مسرعين وزالوا

وكم من جبال قد علا شرÙاتها رجال Ùزالوا والجبال جبال

ثم قال: )لقد تأملت الطرق الكلاميه ٢المناهج الÙلسÙيه Ùما رأيتهما تشÙÙŠ عليلا، ولاتروي غليلا(.وضرب مثلا بمنهج القرأن ÙÙŠ الصÙات ورأيت أقرب الطرق طريقة القرأن، أقرأ ÙÙŠ الاثبات( ﴿الرحمن علي العرش استوي﴾

﴿إأليه يصعد الكلم الطيب﴾، وأقرأ ÙÙŠ النÙÙŠ ﴿ليس كمثله شىء﴾، ﴿ولا يحيطون به علما﴾)

وهذا الشهرستاني يضرب علي الوتر Ù†Ùسه،ويقرر أنه لم يجد عند الÙلاسÙÙ‡ والمتكلمين بعد طول البحث وتنقيب إلحيرة والندم حيث يقول:

لعمري لقد المعاهد كلّها وسيرت طرÙÙŠ بين تلك المعالم

Ùلم أر إلا واضعا ك٠حاءر علي ذقن أو قارعا سن نادم

وهذا الجويني وهو من الجهابذة الذين اشتغلوا بعلم الكلام يقول محذرا من اشتغال به : )يا أصحابنا لا تشتغلو بالكلام Ùلو عرÙت أن الكلام يبلغ بي ما بلغ ما اشتغلت به(ØŒ وقال عند موته متندما متحسرا : )لقد خضت البحر الخضم ØŒ وخليت أهل الاسلام Ùˆ علومهم ØŒ Ùˆ دخلت ÙÙŠ الدي نهوني عنه ØŒ والان إن لم يتداركني الله برحمته Ùلويل لابن الجيني، وها اندا أموت علي عقيدة أمي ØŒ او قال علي عقيدة العجاءزً(

وا بو حامد الغزالي - رحمه الله - من هوءلاء الذين أطالوا البحث Ùˆ التنقيب Ùˆ التنقل من Ùرقه الي Ùرقه، Ùˆ قد اىنتهي ÙÙŠ أخر عمره إلي الوق٠والحيرة ÙÙŠ المساءل الكلاميه واقبل علي أحاديث الرسول )صلعم( - Ùمات Ùˆ صحيح البخاري علي صدره.

Ùˆ هذا ابو الحسن الا شعري نشأ معتزليا Ùˆ بقي كذلك أربعين عاما ثم رجع عن ذلك وصرح بتضليل المعتزلة Ùˆ بالغ ÙÙŠ الرد عليهم. Ùˆ لقد نشأ Ùريق بعد ذلك سار علي المنهج السليم أنه استوعب علوم هءولاء Ùˆ عر٠مقاتلهم Ùكان يرد عليهم بلمنهج القرأنى Ùˆ يحاربهم بسلاحهم أيضا مبنيا ما Ùيه من عوار Ùˆ ضع٠و قلءد هذا الÙريق Ùˆ حامل لواءه هو الشيخ الاسلام ابن تيمية رحمه الله، امام من اءمة المسلمين، بيد أنه استÙرق جهدا غير عادي ÙÙŠ نقد مذاهب الخوارج ورده Ùˆ تنÙيده ØŒ وكمان التصوّ٠الذي نشأ Ùيه انحرا٠، Ùˆ اختلط بلÙلسÙÙ‡ اليونانيه والوحدة الوجود )العبد ربّ، والرب عبدا ØŒ Ùليت شعري من المكل٠، ان قلت عبدا Ùذاك حقا، او قلت ربّ Ùاني

يكلÙ( Ùˆ كلام مثل )خضنا بحر وق٠الانبياء بساحله(.

اما سبّك، Ùˆ لعنك علي أءمة المسلمين Ùلا ÙŠÙيدك الا خسرانن يا ا بوالكلام، Ùˆ هكذا ان لم تستح Ùاصنع ما شءت. Ùˆ احدرك ان تكون رمز الحقارة، Ùˆ الذجل، لان عين الرضا عن عيب كليلة ولكن عين السخط تبدي المساويا.

اما ابن تيمية، Ùˆ تلميذه ابن القيم ØŒ Ùانه كما قيل ÙÙŠ قواعد الشرعيه، ان من عظم حسناته وكثرت Ùضاءله Ùˆ خيراته، Ùˆ كانت له ÙÙŠ الاسلام تاثيرا طاهر Ùانه يحتمل ما لا يحتمل لقيره، Ùˆ يعÙا مالا يعÙا لقيره : لان المعصيه خبث، والماء ادا بلغ قلتين لم يحمل الخبث. Ùˆ قلنا لهم ﴿الَّذÙينَ آمَنÙواْ وَعَمÙÙ„Ùواْ الصَّالÙحَات٠طÙوبَى Ù„ÙŽÙ‡Ùمْ ÙˆÙŽØ­Ùسْن٠مَآبÙ﴾، اما نت Ùيا ابوالكلام : يا ناظح الجبل العالي اشÙÙ‚ علي الراس لا تشÙÙ‚ علي الجبل.

و اختم بيت من امير الشعراء:

يا له من ببغاء عقله ÙÙŠ أدنيه

أثر البهتان Ùيه وانطلي الزور عليه

ملاء الجو صراخا بحياة قاتليه.

اقول قولي هذا Ùˆ استغÙر الله لي ولكم، والسلام عليكم، Ùˆ رحمة الله Ùˆ براكاته.

[Johnny B]

The Dragon In My Garage

by Carl Sagan

"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"

 

Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

 

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle -- but no dragon.

 

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

 

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

 

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

 

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

 

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

 

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

 

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

 

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and No dragon at all ?

[S.O.S]

banana&rice,

Whoever you are, everyone here (including you) know that salafi da’wa is stating the correct position of Islamic monotheism as believed and followed by Ahlus-Sunnah Wal-Jamaacah, with proofs from the Qur’aan and Sunnah, with the understanding of the Saxaabah and the Salafus-Saalix!!!

 

Now, when your desire is to put forward the Shiica/Imamaat position and their different believes/creeds, then I suggest to you in order to do justice for yourself, not to mistake our tea with your tea, thinking they come from the same jalmad & tarmuus , thus attempting to add some of your tea into our tea.

 

Therefore, my advice is:

1) State that you’re a Shiica and 2) from there proceed to have your say!

[Salafi_Online]

Salam

 

rice

 

Many people do not appreciate the sweetness of Iman due to their disfigured comprehension of Allah's oneness and unique attributes and their excessive rancour for Ahlul-Sunnah. And Success lies with Allah jala wa 3ala.

 

When we discuss the readings of Allah's lofty attributes, people either appeal to unknown authorities or their narrow intellect. Every Muslim agrees that the best people who understood this deen were the companions and those who followed them. they are the Jama’a(consensus).The Salaf (pious predecessors) communicated the truth with exactitude and absolute clarity, far removed from the people of theological rhetoric and confusion[ahlul Kalam].If we refer back to their noble works such as,

 

"Usool al-I'etiqad" (the principles of creed) written by al-Lalalikai , - "al-Hujjah" (the substantiation) written by al-Asfahani , - "al-'Uluw" (the highness) written by Imam al-Zahabi , “Usool-As-sunnah†Imam Ahmed.

 

You will come to a firm understanding that Allah is above his creation regulating the heavens and earths and everything in between. Our beloved shaykh, Abu Abdullah Ahmed ibn Hanbal is from the foremost who attest to the Culuu of Allah ‘aza wa jal. in his book "usool As Sunnah"

 

Many people, mainly due to their misplaced knowledge assert that Ibn taymiyah is the prime founder of Allah’s Culuu. Others claim it was Mohammad ibn Abdulwahaab. So we ask them, what does Imam Ahmed say about the matter? Or Sufyan Athawri, Awza’ee or Imam Malik. They are silent, at best they utter,†I don’t knowâ€! Of course with minimal research the sincere worshiper will realize that the people who abetted this deen were upon the understanding that Allah rose over his throne in a way that suits his majesty. By no means do they claim he sits, nor do they speak of such matter. the “How†of Allah’s Culuu is unknown. Walilhamd. Rather they say, and I cite, the imam of guidance, Imam Malik,â€

 

Imam Malik Ibn Anas (rahimahullah) was questioned once, and it was said to him: "O Abu Abdillah! (Allah said) : 'The Most Merciful rose over the Throne.' How does he rise? So he (rahimahullah) responded: "The Rising (Al-Istiwaa) is not something unknown. How (it is done) is incomprehensible. Believing in it is an obligation. And asking concerning it is an innovation." Then he put someone in charge of the man he was thrown out.[ Imaam Ibn Qudamah Al-Maqdisee (rahimahullah) Sharh by: Muhammad Salih Ibn Uthaymin (rahimahullah)

Pgs. 70-72]

 

And this is in accordance with the Imams of guidance, All that Allah stated - that he rose over the Throne in a fashion that suits him and that He is with us - true in itself, does not warrant distortion, and must be protected from false conjectures. What has been revealed in the Book and in the Sunnah about His Closeness and His Concomitance, does not conflict what has been told of His Exaltation and Highness. Indeed, Glory be to Him, there is none like unto Him in all His Attributes. He is high in His Nearness and Near in His Highness."

 

 

following is from ibn taymiyah: its called

Where is Allah.

 

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

سؤال وجواب لشيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية

(أين الله؟ )

 

سئل شيخ الإسلام أبو العبّاس أحمد بن تيمية رحمه الله:

عَنْ رجلين اختلÙا ÙÙÙŠ الاعتقاد. Ùقال أحدهما: من لاَ يعتقد أنّ الله سÙبْحَانَه٠وتعالى ÙÙÙŠ السّمَاء ÙÙŽÙ‡ÙÙˆÙŽ ضال. وقال الآخر: إنّ الله سÙبْحَانَه٠لاَ ينحصر ÙÙÙŠ مكان، وهما شاÙعيان Ùبينوا لَنَا مَا نتبع من عقيدة الشّاÙعي رضي الله عنه، وَمَا الصّواب ÙÙÙŠ ذلك؟

الجواب: الحمد لله، اعتقاد الشاÙعي رضي الله عَنْه٠واعتقاد "سل٠الإسلام" كمالك، والثوري،والأوزاعي، وابن المبارك، وأحمد بن حنبل، وإسحاق بن راهويه، ÙˆÙŽÙ‡ÙÙˆÙŽ اعتقاد المشايخ المقتدى بهم كالÙضيل بن عياض، وأبي سليمان الداراني، وسهل بن عبد الله التستري، وغيرهم. Ùإنّه لَيْسَ بَيْنَ هؤلاء الأئمة وأمثالهم نزاع ÙÙÙŠ أصول الدين.

وكذلك أبو حنيÙØ© رحمة الله عَلَيهÙØŒ Ùإنّ الاعتقاد الثابت عَنْه٠ÙÙÙŠ التوحيد والقدر ونحو Ø°ÙŽÙ„ÙÙƒÙŽ مواÙÙ‚ لاعتقاد هؤلاء، واعتقاد هؤلاء Ù‡ÙÙˆÙŽ مَا كَانَ عَلَيه٠الصّحابة والتّابعون لهم بإحسان، ÙˆÙŽÙ‡ÙÙˆÙŽ مَا نطق بÙه٠الكتاب والسنة.

قَالَ الشاÙعي ÙÙÙŠ أوّل خطبة "الرّسالة": الحمد لله الَّذÙÙŠ Ù‡ÙÙˆÙŽ كَمَا وص٠بÙÙ‡Ù Ù†Ùسه، ÙˆÙوق مَا يصÙÙ‡ بÙه٠خلقه. Ùبيّن رحمه الله- أنّ الله موصو٠بÙمَا وص٠بÙÙ‡Ù Ù†Ùسه ÙÙÙŠ كتابه، وعلى لسان رسوله صلى الله عليه وسلم.

وكذلك قَالَ أحمد بن حنبل: لاَ يوص٠الله Ø¥Ùلاَّ بÙمَا وص٠بÙÙ‡Ù Ù†Ùسه، أَوْ وصÙÙ‡ بÙه٠رسوله صلى الله عليه وسلم، من غير تحري٠وَلاَ تعطيل، ومن غير تكيي٠وَلاَ تمثيل، بل يثبتون لَه٠مَا اثبته لنÙسه من الأسماء الحسنى، والصÙات العليا، ويعلمون أَنَّه٠(( لَيْسَ كمثله شيء ÙˆÙŽÙ‡ÙÙˆÙŽ السميع البصير ))لاَ ÙÙÙŠ صÙاته، وَلاَ ÙÙÙŠ ذاته، وَلاَ ÙÙÙŠ Ø£Ùعاله.

Ø¥ÙÙ„ÙŽÙ‰ أَنْ قَالَ: ÙˆÙŽÙ‡ÙÙˆÙŽ الَّذÙÙŠ خلق السَّمَاوَات والأرض وَمَا بينهما ÙÙÙŠ ستة أيّام Ø«Ùمَّ استوى عَلَى العرش؛ ÙˆÙŽÙ‡ÙÙˆÙŽ الَّذÙÙŠ كلّم موسى تكليماً؛ وتجلّى للجبل Ùجعله دكاً؛ وَلاَ يمثاله شيء من الأشياء ÙÙÙŠ شيء من صÙاته، Ùليس كعلمه علم أحد، وَلاَ كقدرته قدرة أحد، وَلاَ كرحمته رحمة أحد، وَلاَ كاستوائه استواء أحد، وَلاَ كسمعه وبصره سمع أحد وَلاَ بصره، وَلاَ كتكليمه تكليم أحد، وَلاَ كتجليه تجلي أحد.

والله سÙبْحَانَه٠قَدْ أخبرنا أنّ ÙÙÙŠ الجنة لحماً ولبناً، عسلاً وماءً، وحريراً وذهباً.

وَقَدْ قَالَ ابن٠عبّاس٠رضي الله عنهما: لَيْسَ ÙÙÙŠ الدّÙنْيَا مما ÙÙÙŠ الآخرة Ø¥Ùلاَّ الأسماء.

ÙÙŽØ¥Ùذَا كَانَتْ Ù‡ÙŽØ°Ùه٠المخلوقات الغائبة ليست مثل Ù‡ÙŽØ°Ùه٠المخلوقات المشاهدة - مَعَ اتÙاقها ÙÙÙŠ الأسماء- Ùالخالق أعظم علواً ومباينة لخلقه من مباينة المخلوق للمخلوق، وإن اتّÙقت الأسماء.

وَقَدْ سمّى Ù†Ùسه حياً عليماً، سميعاً بصيراً، وبعضها رؤوÙاً رحيماً؛ وليس الحيّ كالحيّ، وَلاَ العليم كالعليم، وَلاَ السميع كالسميع، وَلاَ البصير كالبصير، وَلاَ الرؤو٠كالرؤوÙØŒ وَلاَ الرحيم كالرّحيم.

وقال ÙÙÙŠ سياق حديث الجارية المعروÙ: ( أين الله؟ ) قالت: ÙÙÙŠ السّمَاء. لكن لَيْسَ معنى Ø°ÙŽÙ„ÙÙƒÙŽ أنّ الله ÙÙÙŠ جو٠السّمَاء، وأنّ السَّمَاوَات تحصره وتحويه، Ùإن هَذَا لَمْ يقله أحد من السّل٠الأمة وأئمتها؛ بل هم متÙقون عَلَى أنّ الله Ùَوْقَ سماواته، عَلَى عرشه، بائن من خلقه؛ لَيْسَ ÙÙÙŠ مخلوقاته شيء من ذاته، وَلاَ ÙÙÙŠ ذاته شيء من مخلوقاته.

وَقَدْ قَالَ مالك بن أنس: إن الله Ùَوْقَ السماء، وعلمه ÙÙÙŠ كلّ مكان

Ùمن اعتقد أنّ الله ÙÙÙŠ جو٠السّمَاء محصور محاط به، وأنّه Ù…Ùتقر Ø¥ÙÙ„ÙŽÙ‰ العرش، أَوْ غير العرش – من المخلوقات- أَوْ أَنْ استواءه عَلَى عرشه كاستواء المخلوق عَلَى كرسيّه: ÙÙŽÙ‡ÙÙˆÙŽ ضال مبتدع جاهل، ومن اعتقد أنّه لَيْسَ Ùَوْقَ السَّمَاوَات إله يعبد، وَلاَ عَلَى العرش ربّ يصلّى لَه٠ويسجد، وأنّ محمداً لَمْ يعرج بÙه٠إÙÙ„ÙŽÙ‰ ربّه؛ وَلاَ نزل القرآن من عنده: ÙÙŽÙ‡ÙÙˆÙŽ معطّل Ùرعوني، ضال مبتدع –وقال- بَعْدَ كلام طويل- والقائل الَّذÙÙŠ قَالَ: من لَمْ يعتقد أَنّ الله ÙÙÙŠ السّمَاء ÙÙŽÙ‡ÙÙˆÙŽ ضال: إن أراد بذلك من لاَ يعتقد أنّ الله ÙÙÙŠ جو٠السّمَاء، بحيث تحصره وتحيط بÙÙ‡Ù: Ùَقَدْ أخطأ.

وإن أراد بذلك من لَمْ يعتقد مَا جاء بÙه٠الكتاب والسنة، واتÙÙ‚ عَلَيه٠سل٠الأمة وأئمتها، من أنّ الله Ùَوْقَ سماواته عَلَى عرشه، بائن من خلقه: Ùَقَدْ أصاب، Ùإنه من لَمْ يعتقد Ø°ÙŽÙ„ÙÙƒÙŽ يكون مكذباً للرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم، متبعاً لغير سبيل المؤمنين؛ بل يكون ÙÙÙŠ الحقيقة معطّلاً لربّه ناÙياً Ù„ÙŽÙ‡ÙØ› Ùَلاَ يكون Ù„ÙŽÙ‡Ù ÙÙÙŠ الحقيقة إله يعبده، وَلاَ ربّ يسأله، ويقصده.

والله قَدْ Ùطر العباد – عربهم وعجمهم - عَلَى أنّهم Ø¥Ùذَا دعوا الله توجّهت قلوبهم Ø¥ÙÙ„ÙŽÙ‰ العلوّ، وَلاَ يقصدونه تحت أرجلهم.

ولهذا قَالَ بعض العارÙين: مَا قَالَ عار٠قط: يَا الله!! Ø¥Ùلاَّ وجد ÙÙÙŠ قلبه – قبل أَنْ يتحرّك لسانه- معنى يطلب العلو، لاَ يلتÙت يمنة وَلاَ يسرة.

ولأهل الحلول والتعطيل ÙÙÙŠ هَذَا الباب شبهات، يعارضون بÙهَا كتاب الله وسنة رسوله صلى الله عليه وسلم، وَمَا أجمع سل٠الأمة وأئمتها؛ وَمَا Ùطر الله عَلَيه٠عباده، وَمَا دلّت عَلَيه٠الدلائل العقلية الصحيحة؛ Ùإن Ù‡ÙŽØ°Ùه٠الأدلّة كلّها متÙقة عَلَى أنّ الله Ùَوْقَ مخلوقاته، عال٠عَلَيْهَا، قَدْ Ùطر الله عَلَى Ø°ÙŽÙ„ÙÙƒÙŽ العجائز والصبيان والأعراب ÙÙÙŠ الكتاب؛ كَمَا Ùطرهم عَلَى الإقرار بالخالق تَعَالَى.

وَقَدْ قَالَ صلى الله عليه وسلم ÙÙÙŠ الحديث الصحيح: ( كلّ مولود يولد عَلَى الÙطرة؛ Ùأبواه يهودانه، أَوْ ينصّرانه، أَوْ يمجسانه، كَمَا تنتج البهيمة بهيمة جمعاء هَلْ تحسّون ÙÙيهَا من جدعاء؟ ) Ø«Ùمَّ يقول أبو هريرة رضي الله عنه: اقرؤوا إن شئتم: (( Ùطرة الله الَّتÙÙŠ Ùطر النَّاس عَلَيْهَا، لاَ تبديل لخلق الله )).

وهذا معنى قول عمر بن عبد العزيز: عليك بدين الأعراب والصبيان ÙÙÙŠ الكتاب، وعليك بÙمَا Ùطرهم الله عليه، Ùإن الله Ùطر عباده عَلَى الحق، والرّسل بعثوا بتكميل الÙطرة وتقريرها، لاَ بتحويل الÙطرة وتغييرها.

وأمّا أعداء الرسل كالجهمية الÙرعونية ونحوهم: Ùيريدون أَنْ يغيّروا Ùطرة الله، ويوردون عَلَى النَّاس شبهات بكلمات مشتبهات، لاَ ÙŠÙهم كثير من النَّاس مقصودهم بها؛ وَلاَ يحسن أَنْ يجيبهم.

وأصل ضلالتهم تكلّمهم بكلمات مجملة؛ لاَ أصل لَهَا ÙÙÙŠ كتابه؛ وَلاَ سنّة رسوله صلى الله عليه وسلم؛ وَلاَ قالها أحد من أئمّة المسلمين، كلÙظ التحيّز والجسم، والجهة ونحو Ø°ÙŽÙ„ÙÙƒÙŽ.

Ùمن كَانَ عارÙاً بحل شبهاتهم بينها، ومن لَمْ يكن عارÙاً بذلك Ùليعرض عَنْ كلامهم، وَلاَ يقبل Ø¥Ùلاَّ مَا جاء بÙه٠الكتاب والسنّة، كَمَا قَالَ: (( ÙˆÙŽØ¥Ùذَا رأيت الَّذÙينَ يخوضون ÙÙÙŠ آياتنا Ùأعرض عنهم حتّى يخوضوا ÙÙÙŠ حديث٠غيره )). ومن يتكلّم ÙÙÙŠ الله وأسمائه وصÙاته بÙمَا يخال٠الكتاب والسنّة ÙÙŽÙ‡ÙÙˆÙŽ من الخائضين ÙÙÙŠ آيات الله بالباطل.

وكثير من هؤلاء ينسب Ø¥ÙÙ„ÙŽÙ‰ أئمّة المسلمين مَا لَمْ يقولوه: Ùينسبون Ø¥ÙÙ„ÙŽÙ‰ الشاÙعي، وأحمد بن حنبل، ومالك، وأبي حنيÙØ©: من الاعتقادات مَا لَمْ يقولوا. ويقولون لمن تبعهم: هَذَا اعتقاد الإمام الÙلاني؛ ÙÙŽØ¥Ùذَا طولبوا بالنّقل الصحيح عَنْ الأئمة تبيّن كذبهم.

• وقال الشاÙعي: حكمي ÙÙÙŠ أهل الكلام: أَنْ يضربوا بالجريد والنّعال، ويطا٠بهم ÙÙÙŠ القبائل والعشائر، ويقال: هَذَا جزاء٠من ترك الكتاب والسنّة، وأقبل عَلَى الكلام.

• قَالَ أبو يوس٠القاضي: من طلب الدين بالكلام تزندق.

• قَالَ أحمد: مَا ارتدى أحد بالكلام ÙØ£Ùلح.

• قَالَ بعض العلماء: المعطّل يعبد عدماً، والممثّل يعبد صنماً. المعطّل أعمى، والممثّل أعشى؛ ودين الله بَيْنَ الغالي ÙÙيه٠وَالجاÙÙŠ عَنْهÙ.

وَقَدْ قَالَ تَعَالَى: (( وكذلك جعلناكم أمّة وسطاً )) والسنّة ÙÙÙŠ الإسلام كالإسلام ÙÙÙŠ الملل. انتهى والحمد لله ربّ العالمين.

[ مجموع الÙتاوى (5/256-261) ]

[bananaamprice]

Salam Alykum all.....

 

Nice to see many replies. For a moment there, I thought the Islamic forum was dead!

 

Sharmarkee, your timing was less than impeccable. Mutakalm's arrogant posts were deleted.

 

I'd like to thank JB for citing that insightful anecdote of the dragon. It simply illustrates a common fallacy that many believers commit, that is, shifting the burden of proof.

 

 

Shams-ud-Din, "who i am" is irrelevant. You are supposed to critique the argument not the person or his background. I could be a Salafi, Shici, 7ambali, Malaki, Shafi3i, hanfi, jahami, jewish, christian etc...It really does not matter.

 

[49.13] O you men! surely We have created you of a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other; surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one among you most careful (of his duty); surely Allah is Knowing, Aware.

 

Salafi da'wa, as I have said before, I am not well-versed in the Arabic language or the science of men. You and I know that narrational proof involves too many other factors, which are far beyond the scope of this modest forum. Factors such as: The chain of narrators, whether the narration is authentic or not, what is meant by the narration and so on and so forth. I think we can do ourselves a favour by limiting our discussion to the Aqly proof. In addition, I do not follow others when it comes to the main beliefs or the pillars of the religion. I believe that one should employ his reason to understand the existence and attributes of Allah, as opposed to suspending all rational analysis and shouting, when confronted with truth: "We have not heard of this among our fathers of yore" [23.24]

 

My main questions remains unanswered: How can you apply a physical/temporal/relative attribute (culuu) to an non-physical/absolute/infinite being?

 

Wa salam

[S.O.S]

banana&rice,

Unfortunately you're missing the point!

 

You must understand that, in order for me to put forward any kind of critique directed at your arguments, I have to go to their roots of origination and their fundamental principles on which they've been constucted. I can confidently state to you that you haven't invented these views, and therefore matters to state which school of thought you lean towards (ie mu'tazila, shia, etc.) as my response needs to be limited to a fitting scope addressing the invalidity of your underlining assumptions.

 

Therefore what you are is primarily what you believe....if you still can't see my point, then perhabs I should try again.

 

You know what I am and where I'm coming from (if not ask and I'm more than willing to state it clearly for you)....so, there's nothing to be ashamed of by anouncing what you are and where you're coming from.

[bananaamprice]

Shams-ud-Din, I am a rationalist. My arguments originate from reason.

 

Once again:

 

1. Physical attributes do not apply to non-physical beings

2.culuu is a physical attribute and Allah is a non-physical being

3. Therefore, culuu can not be an attribute of Allah

 

Wa salam

[S.O.S]

1. Physical attributes do not apply to non-physical beings

 

2.culuu is a physical attribute and Allah is a non-physical being

 

3. Therefore, culuu can not be an attribute of Allah

banana&rice,

Very well, have it your way and let’s move on.

 

First thing that strikes me when I look at you three-step “rational†arguments which supposedly have originated from reason is: This in not very well thought-out reasoning!

 

Therefore, I kindly request you to ponder over it, just for few minutes and ask yourself some of the questions I’ve written below which originate from my reason upon reading the above quote from your post. I'll be looking forward to read your thoughts on my thoughts!

 

What is a physical attribute? And what is non-physical attribute? Does physicality necessitate visibility in order to have attributes? Can you see angels who are created from light? Does light have a physical attribute? Or do the angels have a physical attribute? Would your reason, using rationalism, as self-confessed “rationalistâ€, have come to the conclusion that Angels are created from light and have attributes (ghilaad, shidaad, etc.) without revelation (Qur’aan and Sunnah)? Can you know all physical attributes or only that of matter (protons, neutrons and electrons) wherefrom everything in our world consists of? Since only 4% of the universe is made of “our†matter whiles the other 96% of the universe consists of a less known matter or as cosmologists and physicists prefer to call the “cold dark matter/energy†(see latest WMAP data), can you/your reason deny or confirm any physical or non-physical attribute associated with that less known matter? If you/your reason cannot know the simple physical attributes of Allah’s creation, without having information/knowledge/evidence first, how dare you denying Allah’s attributes of which He ascribed to Himself, for Himself, without referring back to the information/knowledge/evidences He provided for us? What comes first, your “reason†or Allah’s revelation when citing evidences concerning the ghaib which is unseen, unknown, imperceptible, unimaginable, incomprehensible, etc.? Are we allowed to imprison Allah’s attributes in our primitive mind, by letting our limited reasoning define His attributes?

 

Allah informs us that: “Laysa kamithlihii shay unâ€; neither heart nor mind and reason can comprehend, transcended is He from our imaginations which is confined to what we know (of His creation) in this world. So we rely on Allah’s revelation first; as Allah says: “This is of the news of the unseen which We reveal unto you (O Muhammad), neither you nor your people knew them before this. So be patient. The good end is for the pious.†(11:49). Then we use our reason or caql to confirm it in our hearts what Allah reveals (for our hearts).

 

That’s why we affirm whatever attribute Allah reveals about Himself, in a way which Allah alone knows, and which is fitting for His Majestic Might and Transcendence beyond human comprehension; knowing full well that there’s nothing unto like Him, and that whatever we imagine is absolute falsehood; thus: We don’t contradict what is revealed, we don’t deny what Allah affirmed for Himself, we don’t affirm what Allah denied for Himself; in short: We hear and we believe.

 

Culuu is not a physical attribute, but is concerned with Allah’s Transcendence in both, His Attributes and Essence (for exact defenition, please read Salafi da’wa’s first post in this thread again).