Puntland's political goals/origins?

[LANDER]

This was my reply to an article posted concerning the progress made in Puntland. It seems that in alot of the articles that come up from ALL PUNTLAND or some other puntland websites, there is this allusion to statehood. So it begs the question exactly what are the current political goals of this region, but more importantly what were the original motives that created this region which never existed in somali history prior to 1998. I look forward to hearing what knowledge the Puntlanders have to share.

 

 

Good news indeed for the people of North East Puntland region. Not that this reality didn't exist prior to the acknowlegement of this foreigner, but I guess somalis will only be satisfied with their situation when they get approval from outsiders. Obviously there are some definite issues to be work on within Puntland internal politics, specially when it comes to democratic reforms which are practically non-existent at the moment. Until those reforms take place, Puntland will have to settle for the title of most succesfull and stable warlord fiefdom, but nevertheless it remains a fiefdom. The reasoning behind this statement is that a region under the absolute control of One man can only go as far as that man will allow, or as far as his charismatic leadership will provide for the needs of the population which consists mostly of economic and political stability. Which brings me to a question that has never been completely answered to me. Why was PUNTLAND created in the first place? In the early days (1998) I was under the impression it was to emulate Somaliland and create another independant and stable region from the former somali republic. Which made some sense to me, until a couple of years later after a disagrement in some talks in Hargeisa, I heard the Puntlanders political stance is that of a united Somalia in which Puntland remained a province. So if the intention from the get go was for the regions in the area of Puntland to remain under Somalia, than why rename the area? and why the name of PUNT an ancient civilization that incompassed half of East Africa? why not Waqooyi Bari Province or something of that sort? why use the more secessionist sounding word of Puntland? so many questions....I have to leave it at that for now. Hopefully the knowledgeable Puntlanders could answer these questions to start with.

[BN]

Lander,

 

Although I am not the most knowledgeable, and the reasons behind this post are suspect, I'll add my 2 cents

 

First, can you please give us some of your thoughts on this subject? What were you feelings towards PL between 1998-2001, when there was a democratically elected local government? Is it different from today? What if the leader of PL died today? It seems, to me at least, it has less to do with the leadership of PL rather then it's preceived threat to your nation state. Wether it is C/Yusuf or any other leader the conflict over Sool and Sanaag would remain the same. Or do you think otherwise?

 

Although I do agree that democratic reforms are needed and should be carried through immediately. The local elections seem to be getting post-poned for one reason or another(something he must have learned from Egal ). Btw, C/Yusuf is as much a dictator as Egal(allaha u naxaristo)

 

I was under the impression it was to emulate Somaliland and create another independant and stable region from the former somali republic.

Where did you get this impression?

 

Which made some sense to me, until a couple of years later after a disagrement in some talks in Hargeisa

Can you expand on this a bit? What talks in Hargeysa exactly?

 

So if the intention from the get go was for the regions in the area of Puntland to remain under Somalia, than why rename the area? and why the name of PUNT an ancient civilization that incompassed half of East Africa? why not Waqooyi Bari Province or something of that sort? why use the more secessionist sounding word of Puntland?

I dont see how the name Puntland is secessionist in anyway. Unless you also believe Queensland region in Austalia also has seperatist aspirations...

 

But what if the federal formula was not accepted by the south/central Somali leaders. What would be the position if the PL people and leaders??? Would they accept the same pre-1991 political structure of a highly centralized unity state? Or would they take more drastic actions?

 

For more background info on the NorthEast between the 1990s read the North East Somalia Regional Reports

 

Peace,

NB

[bilan]

Originally posted by LANDER:

Obviously there are some definite issues to be work on within Puntland internal politics, specially when it comes to democratic reforms which are practically non-existent at the moment. Until those reforms take place, Puntland will have to settle for the title of most succesfull and stable warlord fiefdom, but nevertheless it remains a fiefdom. The reasoning behind this statement is that a region under the absolute control of One man can only go as far as that man will allow, or as far as his charismatic leadership will provide for the needs of the population which consists mostly of economic and political stability.

somalis do not need democratic, and there is nothing called democracy anyway, even though i do not agree anything that A/lahi yusuf did, do or will do, who can deny puntland is much better than what it was before civil war,there was no electricity, running water etc,and today they have a lot more and they are in better position than they were before 13 years.so i think people were smart and chose the right decision when they decided not to fight him, cause he will never leave until he dies.and ordinary people do not care that as long as they can do their business in a stable and safe condition.

[bilan]

Originally posted by bulo:

Originally posted by LANDER:

[qb] Obviously there are some definite issues to be work on within Puntland internal politics, specially when it comes to democratic reforms which are practically non-existent at the moment. Until those reforms take place, Puntland will have to settle for the title of most succesfull and stable warlord fiefdom, but nevertheless it remains a fiefdom. The reasoning behind this statement is that a region under the absolute control of One man can only go as far as that man will allow, or as far as his charismatic leadership will provide for the needs of the population which consists mostly of economic and political stability.

somalis do not need democratic, and there is nothing called democracy anyway, even though i do not agree anything that A/lahi yusuf did, do or will do, who can deny puntland is much better than what it was before civil war,there was no electricity, running water etc,and today they have a lot more and they are in better position than they were before 13 years.so i think people were smart and chose the right decision when they decided not to fight him, cause he will never leave until he dies.and ordinary people do not care that as long as they can do their business in a stable and safe condition. from what i heard the reason puntland was created was, they waited rest of the war lords to stop the war, but after 7 years nothing changed, and new war lords emerged, so what was the solution, locale people needed banks, courts, schools, police, so the leaders come up with this idea.i thought it was obvious the reason they created pl, and now here is hiiranland, so it all good, let everyone fix their home.

[Liqaye]

Well lander i will be suprised if i know.....and more to the point so will the puntlanders.

Like i said somaliland although I am against it attepts at "independence" is straightfoward about its goals and it's hallucinations never change.

Lakiin this troupe that comes out dancing for yusuf doesnt remotley know what their on about, exept of course trying to keep peoples heads down by hurling accusations of qabiil!

[General Duke]

Puntland origins are clear, this was because of the civil war. Because this area which is quite large did not have an adminstration and because of the failure of the USC groups to share power with the rest of the country, the people decided to have self government.

 

Puntland is federal state of the Somali republic.

 

Its not as my brother from Ceel Buur claims an Abullahi Yusuf fiefdom.

The state is there and is going no where.

 

On the issue of renaming, the area has had many names however this one seems to fits just right, its not a diretional name, like Bari and its not a clan name like the old Mudug and MJTenia.

 

Hooganka, you are hellucinating if you believe that Somali has not changed. Get over it open your eyes and know this that Puntland is here to stay.

[LANDER]

Originally posted by Huuganka Ideolojiyada:

 

Lakiin this troupe that comes out dancing for yusuf doesnt remotley know what their on about, exept of course trying to keep peoples heads down by hurling accusations of qabiil!

An observation I share saxiib, that is why I started this topic.

 

Bari,

As for that democratically elected government you allude to, First of all I seriously doubt it was a free regional election that involved everyday people. Must of been in the form of Elders voting on who will lead the region sort of like Somaliland in the early days, which in itself is not a bad start at all. But If I remember correctly Abdulahi Yusuf murdered the very people he was suppose to share power with, or am I wrong? if so than maybe you would like to elaborate on these events that put him in power. As my impression of Puntland in those early days, I have to say it was very favourable even though I wasn't knowledgeable on exactly what their intentions were politically, I gave them the benefit of the doubt since they were trying to salvage themselves from the chaos that plagued the rest of the country. I cannot find documentation on the event that I alluded to in my previous post about the meeting of some Puntland delegates and Somaliland delegates in the early days that took place in Hargeisa, but I know that caused a rupture between the two administrations. Maybe someone else remembers this event and could enlighten us. As for why I think Puntland sounds very secessionist, it stems from the simple historical fact that there is or was no Puntland in Somali history, some historians would argue that the land of PUNT was compromised of modern Eritrea, Ethiopia and parts of Sudan. Regardless of these debatable historical chapters, the fact remains the name of the region came out of thin air as I previously explained. The website you reffered gives alot of historical information on Waqoyii Bari during the war and the years immediatelly after the war when they installed the parliamentary reforms, however almost no information on 1998-to the present or more importantly Yusuf seizure of Power. What I'm also interested in is what were the intentions of that early government that came before Yusuf.

[Gabbal]

no Puntland in Somali history, some historians would argue that the land of PUNT was compromised of modern Eritrea, Ethiopia and parts of Sudan

Lander "Somaliland", "Puntland", what ever land are but branches of the great SOMALI TREE. Don't ever sell yourself short by denying your heritage, your history, and your past.

 

Punt was called the aromatic land, the land of myrrh and frankincense, our so-called uunsi. Just that fact alone tells where it's real location was at.

 

Besides I've heard Eritrea and Ethiopia included with Somalia, if Somalia was not by itself, but I've never seen a historian taking Somalia out of the picture and placing Sudan with it. :eek:

[Liqaye]

South of the tana any person chanced upon was an ethiopian once upon a time, whilst the land of punt streached from zeila to alula.

 

But what does that have to do with abdullahis feifdom and its policies?

[wind talker]

LANDER -

 

In all of honesty, when the Autonomous Puntland State of Somalia was created in the August of 1998, all it really did was unite all the brotherly Somali people in the regions of the Northeast. The idea was to have a functioning government that provided for the wellbeing of the governed. To that end, the Puntland administration did take a few measures to in the name of public works. I've seen a tape sent directly from Garoowe showing the operations of the government offices (this was in 1999 or 2000) and the different schools, hospitals, roads and other projects undercarried by the Nugaal Regional government. And the same can be said for Bari Region, Mudug Region, etc.

 

However, in the post-2001 era, the image of Puntland has been greatly challenged by the sole leader, Col Abdullahi Yusuf, who seeks to dictate what's right and what's wrong in the area under his control.

 

As far as your reference to websites that continue to propagate false news, such as AllPuntland.com, you have to recognize they're funded by interest. Same can be said for websites that support the defunct Arta TNG based out of 2 hotels in a Mogadishu neighborhood or any other kind of politically-driven site on the Net (there's plenty!). If it pleases you, start your own website which will dissiminate news AS YOU SEE IT! That's the power of the Information Age.

 

P.S. I really don't see the need to bring up Somaliland issues and compare/contrast when the question simply asks the origins and goals of Puntland State!

 

~Sidaa iyo Nabadgelyo~

[BN]

wind talker,

 

Very well said. The image of PL has been overshadowed by C/Yusuf since 2001. Btw, can u send me a copy of that video?

 

 

Originally posted by LANDER:

But If I remember correctly Abdulahi Yusuf murdered the very people he was suppose to share power with, or am I wrong?

You'll have to elaborate.

 

As my impression of Puntland in those early days, I have to say it was very favourable even though I wasn't knowledgeable on exactly what their intentions were politically,

The intentions have not changed sxb

 

 

The website you reffered gives alot of historical information on Waqoyii Bari during the war and the years immediatelly after the war when they installed the parliamentary reforms, however almost no information on 1998-to the present

For that info I would suggest Rebuilding Somalia: Issues and Possibilities for Puntland. Written by the same people(WSP) post 1998(PL). Although I think there might be too much information. Dont forget Amazon has a 30 day return policy

 

 

or more importantly Yusuf seizure of Power.

Yusuf was deputy SSDF leader at the time (Abshir was leader?) and was chosen as the President for the period of 1998-2001. In 2001 the PL parliament extended the mandate for another 3 years. I dont know if they had that ability in the charter, maybe Samurai or others can elaborate. Some elders and political rivals refused to accept the extention. Yusuf refused to hold another conference. What a receipe for disaster

 

What I'm also interested in is what were the intentions of that early government that came before Yusuf.

What governments? The regional(like Bari)? or SSDF/Isimo governments of the early/mid 1990's?

 

Peace,

BN

[Liqaye]

Bari nomad, i see you understand were people are coming from, a grass roots movement for peace and democracy in the areas of nugaal and bari have been usurped and overshadowed by abdullahi, does the present war-mongering in sool have the support and approbation of nomads such as your self?

Or does puntland feel that expansion takes precedence over the establishemnt of social amenities and services.

You might agree and describe the later as more important then surely you are a boon to puntland, but those that believe there is any casus belli for violence in sool, should remove the cloak that they wear of being punites and should declare and announce their political position, that being under the thumb of yusuf and his henchmen.

Then undoubtedly there would be a clear separation between puntland and yusuf, consequently there would be no need for a topic such as this one.

[LANDER]

Originally posted by HornAfrique: Lander "Somaliland", "Puntland", what ever land are but branches of the great SOMALI TREE. Don't ever sell yourself short by denying your heritage, your history, and your past.

 

Punt was called the aromatic land, the land of myrrh and frankincense, our so-called uunsi. Just that fact alone tells where it's real location was at.

I am aware that some modern day somali regions most likely where part of what was known to the Ancient Egyptians as the land of PUNT, however history would indicate that there was no such thing as a Somali in those ancient days. It is too far back to try to relate it to the somali race which could be said to have converged with several different ethnicities over the centuries. It could be compared to calling some small province in Iraq MESOPOTAMIA, which would be rather foolish. That being said, it can lead one to presume that name of Puntland was probably choosen out of historical ignorance, it doesn't demark any borders that previously existed and if it does or ever did, I assume Yusuf plans on annexing Ethiopia and Eritrea too. Nevertheless this is the choosen name of a region and we can get back to discussing its political goals.

 

Bari,

for the book your recommend "Rebuilding Somalia: Issues and Possibilities for Puntland." I'll try to look into it and I hope it is impartial and sheds light on the events that took place when Yusuf took power. Hopefully the book will elaborate on the intentions of the early regional governments too, rather than just siting events like their website does.

 

Windtalker,

P.S. I really don't see the need to bring up Somaliland issues and compare/contrast when the question simply asks the origins and goals of Puntland State!

True the topic asks the goals of the Puntland province or State which ever you like, however we all know that history is intertwined and we cannot ignore the influence of one event on another. Sort of like conditional probabilities, meaning the probability of an event happening given that another has already taken place P(Y|X).

To illustrate, would modern day Somaliland exist if Siad Barre hadn't come to power and oppressed the people of our region? my guess is most likely NOT. Would Puntland region exist if Somaliland hadn't declared independance? the best guess is most likely NOT. Could these "guesses" have a biased? The answer is YES, however slight they might be, it still depends on the individuals degree of objectivity and since we are all human we are bond to make mistakes. Can we eliminate these bias however slight they might be, the answer is NO than we wouldn't be guessing on probabilities anymore, it would be a certainty.

[BN]

Originally posted by LANDER:

Would Puntland region exist if Somaliland hadn't declared independance? the best guess is most likely NOT.

LOL. Can you please get off your high horse? :rolleyes: It was the people in the North East which campaigned for a system of governance. Their politicians were busy taking part in numerous talks with southern warlords and doing very little to build institutions in the region. There were issues of security, regulations, standardization of laws, etc. Or do you think that we(somalis) dont deserve a functioning government? Or are you upset that this puts another hole in your quest to differentiate Somaliland from Somalia? Tell me what would you expect the ppl in the North East to do after seven(7) of no government and no prospects/signs of peace in the south? Alhamdulillah, they didnt wait around for the mogadishu warlords. Honestly, I am surprised it took as long as it did.

 

 

CeelBuur,

 

Dont confuse my thoughts on the internal politiks of Puntland with disloyalty. Contrary to what you believe, PL is made up of Six(6) regions:

 

1)Bari

2)Nuugaal

3)N. Mudug

4)Sool

5)Sanaag

6)Cayn/Hawd

 

I dont view actions taken in any of those regions(such as Sool) as 'expansionist' in any way. Puntland forces have been in LA since at least 1999, so this is nothing new.

 

But it is also very disheartening to see this waste of money in changing the status quo in Sool region. The money which is being used to conduct these operations(or any future conflict) would be better spent on:

 

1)Improving the dire health situation of Somalis

2)Improving access to clean sources of water

3)Creating affordable housing for the urban destitute in cities

4)Compensation for rural nomads affected by the continued banned on Somali beef

5)Investing in job creation to establish economic prosperity

 

And the list goes on. Sadly, the political elite in Somalia dont seem to care about those issues. Most regular somalis back home are disengaged with the politics and distrustful of politicians. I dont blame them.

 

Peace,

BN