The Dohha Debbates on BBC-Take that Veil off

[Khayr]

Salams,

 

 

 

THE LATEST DEBATE

 

 

The face veil is a barrier to Muslim integration in the West

 

The latest Doha Debate on February 19 joined in the bitter European debate about Muslims who wear the niqab or face veil, branding it "a barrier to integration" in the West.

 

In a surprise vote, fifty-seven per cent of the audience, said the niqab hindered integration in the West, appearing to support comments from western leaders such as Britain's Tony Blair, who has termed the veil "a mark of separation."

 

British Muslim Peer, Lord Ahmed of Rotherham, and Reem Maghribi, founder of Sharq magazine, argued that they didn't want the face veil to become a symbol of Muslims and Islam.

 

"People can wear whatever they like.....(but) my worry is that a person wearing the niqab will become a symbol of Islam and will exclude me and many others from representing my point of view," said Lord Ahmed.

 

UK school teacher Ayshah Ismail, who wears the niqab, told the 300-strong audience that she is fully integrated into British society. She blamed ignorance for the lack of acceptance the West has towards the veil. Her co-speaker against the motion: 'This House believes the face veil is a barrier to integration in the West', was Ahmed Younis, the former National Director of the Muslim Public Affairs Council in the US.

 

Source

 

Dubbed as Qatar's form of Free Speechin the Arab World

 

I wonder what Think Tank brough about this idea :rolleyes:

 

SubhanaAllah,

 

Walahi the xawa of people is being feed through such mediums.

 

This was my first time being exposed to this and what a Shaytan it truely is.

 

They were debating on the issue of Niqaab and whether a Muslimah should wear it and that it prevents them from becoming 'Assimilated'.

 

As I watched the debate all I could remember was the ayat of the Quran stating that "they" will not accept you until you become one of them.

 

Could you believe that people who were claiming to be Muslims (fattt bbaasstard Lord Ahmed of Rotherham, and Reem Maghribi (who was fighting hard for Muslims not to be MUSLIM))

were sitting comfortably and doing the dirty deed of the gaalo. Walahi, waa caajib!

 

Lord Ahmed kinda reminded me of Ngonge

I was waiting for him to yell out 'You lack Comprehension you niqaabis'.

 

Ahmed Younis was a bit of a slick talker but you can't be advocated for Niqaab when you look whiter than the next ale drinking brit. Laakin, he is a pretty good debater.

 

The one niqabit sister in the panel was drilled and she didn't answer q's the right way.

 

'Niqaab is my personal choice' wrong answer.

 

Its a mandate of the deen (according to some schools of fiqh) and no one can say that it is not Halal or part of the deen or can crap about it. (That is what she should have said).

 

One niqaabi sister in the audience tore a whole in fattt *******d Lord Ahmed of Rotherham, and Reem Maghribi.

MashAllah, she was to the point-Islam is Islam, it doesn't have to be tailored to anyone to appease anyone. Point Blank!

 

Ahmed Younis made a good point about how much do you want muslims to assimiliate-do you want them to cut down their salat, through their hijab off-is their a cut off line?

 

At the end of it all, the Victory was to the Army of the Shaytan.

The one thing that the show wants to achieve was accomplished-The VOTE.

 

The largerly muslim audience made a POPULAR VOTE on an issue on the DEEN. :rolleyes:

 

No Niqaab-57%

Yes Niqaab-43%

 

Whats next tomorrow-a Vote on which Part of the Quran to EDIT OUT???

 

Allah yahdeena

[NGONGE]

What part of the word debate don't you understand, saaxib?

 

Why are you wasting your time and writing all of this if it's not a debate you are after?

 

True: Allah yahdeena

[nuune]

Kheyr doodiisa dhan maxaa ka wada dhigey waxey dumarka xirtaan iyo madhabaha(math-habaha) kala duwan, laga yaabo labadan mawduuc iney yihiin kuwa kaliya ee dhaliya shucuurta kala duwan iyo doodaha xasaasiga ah kuwaas oo intooda badan aan laheen ula jeedo kaamil ah iyo meel loo raaco toona, ugu danbeentiina wareeriya dadka intooda badan ee ku cussub mawduucyadaas ama diinta aan wax saas ah ka aqoonin.

 

 

Kheyr, bro, maadaama aad aragtidaada iyo fakkirkaaga ka baxsatey barnaamijkaas ka baxey talafishinkaas, waxaan ku weydiin rabaa, haddaad jeceshahay in aad dadka wacyi galiso ood wax u sheegto maad si qumaati ah oo toosan wax ugu sheegtid ood topigyo noo furtid oo aan kaa faaiideesano waxaad taqaano, taas waa fikradeyda, waana ka baxey!

[Khayr]

Originally posted by nuune:

Kheyr doodiisa dhan maxaa ka wada dhigey waxey dumarka xirtaan iyo madhabaha(math-habaha) kala duwan, laga yaabo labadan mawduuc iney yihiin kuwa kaliya ee dhaliya shucuurta kala duwan iyo doodaha xasaasiga ah kuwaas oo intooda badan aan laheen ula jeedo kaamil ah iyo meel loo raaco toona, ugu danbeentiina wareeriya dadka intooda badan ee ku cussub mawduucyadaas ama diinta aan wax saas ah ka aqoonin.

 

 

Kheyr, bro, maadaama aad aragtidaada iyo fakkirkaaga ka baxsatey barnaamijkaas ka baxey talafishinkaas, waxaan ku weydiin rabaa, haddaad jeceshahay in aad dadka wacyi galiso ood wax u sheegto maad si qumaati ah oo toosan wax ugu sheegtid ood topigyo noo furtid oo aan kaa faaiideesano waxaad taqaano, taas waa fikradeyda, waana ka baxey!

Its not about 'Niqaab/Hijaab' per say, but the medium that was used and the particular message i.e. YOU CAN VOTE ON YOUR DEEN

 

The Devil lays in the DETAILS saxib.

 

This show is nothing but pure VENOM, amid at making middle eastern muslims-western value centered pupils.

 

Why else is trying to get muslims to 'vote' such a hotbed issue?

 

Its really not about NIQAAB but as the confused muslim sister on the panel said "It is about PERSONAL CHOICE" :rolleyes:

 

Like heck its a Personal Choice, if that was and is the case, then there is not need for FIQH in islam. Personal Choice would be the rule of law in islam.

 

Fi Amanillah

[Miriam1]

It was actually a very interesting debate. Amazing that those who opposed the niqab won! lol Things are changing, and I guess its just logic finally taking over.

After all the niqab isnt prescribed by our diin, its a personal choice. Never was a fan of the niqab, I find it just stands in the way of what real hijab is.

The argument Ms. Reema made about how there is a tendancy to instill notions of women as only sexual objects that need to be guarded to that extereme degree in a young children was very interesting actual.

I never thought to consider the logical process that a young girl of 12 had, when she deemed absolutly important for her face to be covered from one male teacher in a all female school, how does she exactly see herself afterall?

 

Hiding women's faces does nothing to increase their modesty, if perverted men are going to stare..they are just going to do it regardless of how much you cover your face.

 

The fella on the side of the motion that was for, seemed a little like a preacher, he had a very interesting way of using words, and I am sure if I heard his argument long enough lol I would have been convinced...but anyway, he has no say on this matter, tis strictly a topic for women to discuss.

After all as he was saying, he was completely integrated into the American society, and ofcourse he was..everything he was wearing was MAINSTREAM..so how could he really identify with the issue?

 

Interesting debate...but as always the main problem with the Doha Debates are that the auidence tend to ask the same questions over and over..

 

Still a great watch!

[Miriam1]

The show is great, I love how it puts allows people to discuss and debate...

 

 

Hey Khayr, interesting point..the niqab is a personal choice..and the ability to exercise your personal choices are basic in a democracy as long as they do not impede or harm other people's ability be free within a given society...

 

but here's the question as muslims in the west, and muslims who were either born there or decided to conciously move there from whereever, being fully aware of the current tide of popular opinion that is very much against muslims...dont we have far greater matters of concern...we are being attacked daily, our position within these socities being more marginalized, and increasing changes in people's preceptions of Muslims as an invading force to be feared..dont we need to aferall focus on these concerns, these lands are our homes, should we not put our energies into looking into ways to change these popular preceptions and encourage that our people integrate..rather than focus on a non-issues, that are brought up like court fights to wear a piece of material that has little to do with Islam and prescribes more to far off eastern culture?

 

By focusing on these matters and making them central to the Muslims Identity in the west we belittle ourselves, Shouldnt our concern be to progress the position of Muslims in the West as productive members of society?

[N.O.R.F]

Arabs are Arabs. Just take a walk down central london in the summer and spot how many (who are on holiday from ME) have dropped the niqaab/hijaab to 'fit-in'. Not surprised at all at the result of the vote.

[Khayr]

Originally posted by Hayam:

By focusing on these matters and making them central to the Muslims Identity in the west we belittle ourselves, Shouldnt our concern be to progress the position of Muslims in the West as productive members of society?

You sound like that Magribi panelist, non-hijab wearing, Islam is in my heart (not outside)journalist.

 

Its not an issue of Niqaab really but an issue of Muslim Identity. What is being asked is-IF a part of your Religion "bothers us" then chuck it away and become like us "Progressive thinking".

 

What does being a "productive member of society" mean?

 

Muslims aren't capitalist machines but slaves of Allah, first and foremost. So who are we to answer to at the end of the day, when our own qiyamahs can come any second for each and everyone of us.

 

and what is this notion of Progressive?

 

Hello...we are headed towards the Qiyamah. Why else is Islam stamped as the 'last revelation'. Verily, by time, man is in a state of loss... not in a state of Progress.

 

Northerner,

 

How the hell can a Muslim "VOTE OUT" something that is in the deen?

The question of the debate was really about is NIQAAB a part of the Deen.

 

No debate about that and certainely no voting on that.

 

This is very dangerous because now all kinds of other islamic principles and symbols will come under the "VOTE".

[N.O.R.F]

How the hell can a Muslim "VOTE OUT" something that is in the deen?

Saxib, lets look at things in perspective. I didnt see this particular debate but i can guess the audience was made up of mainly college kids. I can also guess not much in the way of religious opinion on the subject was discussed. Therefore, making it a question of 'integration' rather than whether the niqaab is wajib/recommended etc and wether one should compromise in order to 'fit-in'.

 

I was just highlighting the mentality of some Arabs/Muslims when they are in non-Muslim lands. They do compromise the niqaab/hijaab in order to fit in and not look out of place whereas those who reside there may think twice. I think this should be explored.

 

The niqaab issue has been discussed in previous threads on SOL.

[-Serenity-]

Khayr, this one was even better. The result i.e.

[Caano Geel]

Serenity, i think too long away from your niqaab has got to your head.

[Miriam1]

You sound like that Magribi panelist, non-hijab wearing, Islam is in my heart (not outside)journalist.

 

Its not an issue of Niqaab really but an issue of Muslim Identity. What is being asked is-IF a part of your Religion "bothers us" then chuck it away and become like us "Progressive thinking".

Quite simple really. I dont believe the Niqab is a part of our religion..so as you so eloquently put it. I have no problems "chucking it" away.

 

Why do people want to constantly complicate a rather simple and beautiful faith..with non issues..

 

Hijab is a beautiful concept, you can be covered in a thousand ways..even including the all black middle-eastern style...and some people choose it and then decide to immulate that specific culture and go a step further and wear the niqab, with ofcourse the different variations.. the one that covers the eyes or the one that doesnt

 

The point is that its a personal choice really..like deciding to wear bright red shoes with a green hijab...

 

But then to turn around and frown upon others who dont like that style and claim that it is a prescribed in Islam for women to wear the Niqab, which by logic would entail that all women should then wear it or they aren't really being proper muslimahs....now thats just pushing it.

 

I said that we should "Progress" our position as muslims in the west, not sure where all this talk of progressive thinking on the fudamentals of our faith came from...

 

What does being a "productive member of society" mean?

 

Muslims aren't capitalist machines but slaves of Allah, first and foremost. So who are we to answer to at the end of the day, when our own qiyamahs can come any second for each and everyone of us.

 

and what is this notion of Progressive?

 

Hello...we are headed towards the Qiyamah. Why else is Islam stamped as the 'last revelation'. Verily, by time, man is in a state of loss... not in a state of Progress.

So what do you suggest, that we lay about behaving in a selfish manner and worrying about our own fate in the day of judgement?

 

What strange thinking....as long as we keep ourselves in check and remember our religion, we then should carry on living in this world hear and now as proper muslims contributing to the existence of everyone in a positive manner, and if you decided to live in a western country than thats where you ought to do it, if not go where you feel most comfortable.

 

How would anything come about in this world if all we thought was the qiyamah, how depressing.

[roobleh]

The wives of the Prophet (peace be upon him) were required to wear niqab.

However, they were not similar to other Muslim women as Allah says:

 

O Wives of the Prophet! You are not like any of the other women(al-Ahzab, 33.32).

 

Most Muslim scholars believe that wearing niqab is optional as the following hadith appears to support their argument:

 

Abdullah bin Abbas reports that the Prophet(peace be upon him)was riding a camel with Al-Fadhl, Abdullah's brother, behind him. A beautiful woman came to ask the Prophet about the Hajj of her father. Al Fadhl began to stare at her; her beauty impressed him a lot. The Prophet (peace be upon him) having noticed this while Al Fadhl was busy looking, put his hand behind and turned his face away from her hither and thither as she went along with them. Al Abbas said to the Prophet, "you are twisting the neck of your nephew!" The Prophet replied, "I noticed that both the boy and the girl were young; and I feared that Satan may intervene". Tirmidhi and Bukhari

 

This clearly shows that the Prophet was aware of the uncovered face of the woman, but was silent about it. Well, we know the Prophet was never silent anything that he disapproved. The fact that the Prophet said nothing about it implies that niqab is not obligatory.

[Miriam1]

^ Well said.

[NGONGE]

Khayr,

 

After seeing you panic and scream about the end being nigh, I really had to watch this debate and see what is it that got your goat.

 

It was an interesting debate. I enjoyed hearing the views of all sides and didn't find myself agreeing with any. Never mind, I may go into more details later. But first let me talk about your LACK OF COMPREHINSION (you asked for it, saaxib and I’m only here to help).

 

 

The title of the debate was: The face veil is a barrier to Muslim integration in the West.

 

 

Now, Mr "The largerly muslim audience made a POPULAR VOTE on an issue on the DEEN". Do you want me to walk you through the meaning of this motion or can you work it out for yourself?

 

 

The motion asks if the face veil is a barrier to Muslim INTEGRATION in the West! It does not ask people to ban it, curtail it or ditch it. It's a simple question about integration. You either agree that the veil hinders integration or you don't. Those that voted for the motion agreed and those that voted against the motion, disagreed. Everyone that was part of that audience or watched the debate on TV (or on the net) knew (hopefully) that this VOTE that seems to irk you that much has no particular bearing on the veil or real life.

 

The ironic thing about all of this is that I think you would have voted for the motion (i.e. yes the veil is a barrier, etc). Your argument, if I may hazard a not-too-difficult guess, would have been: YES the veil is a barrier to Muslim integration in the West and we, as Muslims, are happy to have such barriers in place because we don’t compromise in our deen and such areas of our faith are not open for discussion. We also don't agree with integration because that's just Moral relativism, etc.

 

Ps

I know you're dying to know my position on that debate. Well, if I were in the audience I would have voted No. The veil is not much of a barrier, people are.