LayZie G: Putting the Burka issue to bed

[Ibtisam]

Lool Naden I love the way you say things. Aside from fulfilling the basic criteria, you can do what you like extra and top of that; be it cover your face or eyes or carry your shopping on your head and underneath your Hijab.

 

On this one i agree with Layzie, because as i understand it, she is taking Islam out of the Burka and not the other way around, hence she is right on the money as we know the Burka Islamic connotation that is shoved down the throats of many Somali girls who'd think , without it , they'd be 'gaal'.

Why i do disagree with Ibti, is that in my understanding she is gluing the Burka to Islam and wholly for the ehem ehem "wrong" motives, namely , that it is no-Muslims that (mostly) criticize it so i STICK to my sisters.

No Johnny, Somali Muslims girls are not as ****** as you’d like to think, they do not think they will be gaal without niqab or Burka. In fact lack of hijab cannot take you out of Islam; let alone the type of hijab you wear. Stop making shid up and you are insulting the very people you claim to be defending. Muslim women are smart enough to know that they can cover the basic minimum and be an obedient servant.

And no, I am not gluing the Burka to Islam for the wrong motive (i.e. So can oppose none-Muslims) I support it because they who wear it freely do so either because they just feel like it or because they think it brings the closer to Allah because they have gone the extra mile.

 

Indeed the hijab, niqab and jilbaab are all clothing that go a little beyond the conditions. We can all wear the same thing, and we like to have options and choice in what and how we meet those Islamic requirements. I certainly don't want a man or women trying to tell me what is best for me or how I should fulfil my deen.

[LayZie G.]

Ibti, good evening to you sister.

 

"two side of the same coin" card is the only one you have left to play, which really doesn't surprise me sister but play I say.

 

You do not object to my call for 'banning' of this said garment because it demeans women's worth but that the call to banishment is the very thing you object to. A woman is limited in her ability to juggle children and household chores at the same time while also hanging on to the Burka. Unable to drive her children to school because she can't drive with the said garment while behind the wheel. She may not compete in a the corporate latter for her dream job because of discrimination or even look for suitable employment in certain industries. Ordinarily, it is nearly impossible to walk the same way as she would if she didn't have the extra weight, never mind that she has a child on her hips and grocery bag on the other side and holding on to the burka in fear of falling.

 

Nevermind that she can not protect herself from a would be attacker in the middle of the night beacuse she can't see who is attacking her from behind nor can she identify her assailant from a police line up because the said garment prevented her from recognizing the culprit, and so on and so on.

 

Instead of calling for its banishment or even making an argument against banishment, you are stuck with "no one can tell me what to do", you would rather that women go on believing that it is a choice they personally made when infact thats further from the truth.

 

Ibti, you believe that it is not a religious obligation for a woman to wear a Burka, as say someone who just limits herself to the head cover or one who doesn't wear anything to conceal her hair. Instead of addressing the grievances that arise from horrific scene of a woman juggling Burka on the one hand and her weight on the other among other things, you insist that its a choice and no one should have the right to look after her interest, much less a government authority. If thats the case, why should we applaud the government authority for coming with legislation of banning drinking (or smoking thats hazardous to the public) while driving if we won't listen to what they dictate to us citizens? Because, they know that someone who drives while under the influence of alcohol is danger to self and others and that person is not safe to drive in fear of crashing and causing an accident that would not only be harmful to him/herself but to others, thereby, outlawing drinking while driving but if we said, the heck with the government, we won't allow them to dictate what we should and shouldnt do, isn't it the same thing observing a garment and making it as a religious observance, when in fact it is neither an obligation nor a requirement for a Muslimah to wear it and instead, opt for personal choice? If every law that bans something is opposed, we wouldn't be civilized, would we now?

 

Ladies, lets take emotion out of the equation, I know you are dying to agree with me, you just can't stand being told what to do and thats where all of your objections to this ban lies, ee admit it already and lets get a move on.

 

I ask you again, why do women wear the burka? I dont want to hear that its a personal choice because it means you are not being honest with us or yourselves.

 

If Islam doesnt require a woman to go through the trouble of wearing such an awful material, why does she do it? The obvious one here is that popular believe, but if silent majority agrees with me, who is to say the few that wear the burka do it from the goodness of their hearts instead of social conformity or requirement from the male figure in the family. Whichever way you look at it, she is forced to because if she doesnt, she remains an outcast and if she doesnt obey her the man of the house, she is beaten, worse, she dies from the wounds.

[Ibtisam]

Originally posted by LayZie G.:

Ibti, good evening to you sister.

 

"two side of the same coin" card is the only one you have left to play, which really doesn't surprise me sister but play I say.

 

You do not object to my call for 'banning' of this said garment because it demeans women's worth but that the call to banishment is the very thing you object to. Nevermind that the said garment diminishes the worth of the woman in the social sphere or that it prevents her from taking on daily activities, such as juggling children and household chores. Unable to drive her children to school because she can't drive with the said garment while behind the wheel. She may not compete in a the corporate latter for her dream job because of discrimination. Ordinarily, it is nearly impossible to walk the same way as she would if she didn't have the extra weight, never mind that she has a child on her hips and grocery bag on the other side and holding on to the burka in fear of falling.

 

Nevermind that she can not protect herself from a would be attacker in the middle of the night beacuse she can't see who is attacking her from behind nor can she identity her assailant from a police line up before the said garment prevents her, and so on and so on.

 

Instead of calling for its banishment or even making an argument against banishment, you are stuck with "no one can tell me what to do", you would rather that women go on believing that it is a choice they personally made when infact thats further from the truth.

 

Ibti believe that it is not a religious obligation for her to wear one, as say someone who just limits herself to the head cover. Instead of addressing the grievances that arise from horrific scene of a woman juggling Burka on the one hand and her weight on the other among other things, you insist that its a choice and no one should have the right to look after her interest, much less a government authority. If thats the case, why should we applaud the government authority for coming with legislation of banning drinking while driving if we won't listen to what they dictate to us citizens? Because, they know that someone who drives while under the influence of alcohol is danger to self and others and that person is not safe to drive in fear of crashing and causing an accident that would not only be harmful to him/herself but to others, thereby, outlawing drinking while driving but if we said, the heck with the government, we won't allow them to dictate what we should and shouldnt do, isn't it the same thing observing a garment and making it as a religious observance, when in fact it is neither an obligation nor a requirement for a Muslimah to wear it and instead, opt for personal choice? If every law that bans something is opposed, we wouldn't be civilized, would we now?

 

Ladies, lets take emotion out of the equation, I know you are dying to agree with me, you just can't stand being told what to do and thats where all of your objections to this ban lies, ee admit it already and lets get a move on.

Loool @ LAzy. Sister I would love to agree with you but the fact you think so little of these women really bothers me, the fact that you would put them on the same capcity as someone under the influence is beyond me walahi. I cannot decide if you are serious or just pulling my leg.

 

Burka wearing women in the west are not as demented, stup*id or ignorant. The fact that you think a garment can automatically make someone sub-human is mind blogging.

When I Ibtisam wear a Burka and a niqab do I suddenly become stu*pid and unable to make my own decisions.

 

Your comments remind of ignorant folks who are surprise I speak English without an accent or that I have education or that I hold a position of authority. Often when I meet my patient, after having spoken to them on the phone or e-mail, the first comment they say to me is “Oh you are not at all as I imagined” is it because your own bias views won’t let you see the individual behind the garment? Have we advance so much that we associate intelligence with what they wear.

 

As for attackers and carrying stuff, again I already mentioned it is perfectly practical, I still advise you try it for a day. I have worn it, carried my shopping, taken tube, bus and taxi. I will try to carry a child next time too. But in case I don’t buy your concern for their well being- particularly as it centres on you knowing better than them what is suitable for their practical life.

A Burka wearing sister would not need to be walking about in the middle of night in hostile situation. Even I take precautions to get from A2B at night let alone a Burka wearing sister.

 

Lastly sis, you are not smarter than this sisters who have made a different choice to you, nor are you more enlighten, nor do you know what is suitable or safe for them in their own individual life. Only they as individuals can make that decision. Now I understand if you bang you feet and make noise about women in Somalia or Taliban or any other country were they are forced to wear certain things, and I will support you. But I won’t agree or support you in “we know better” and will tell you how to dress. Or buy into, their dress sense is so dangerous for their safety like alcohol and must be banned. How can you compare it to drink driving :eek: Do you know how many deaths drink driving is responsible for in the west? I have yet to see a case where Burka was responsible for someones death in the west? :confused:

 

No Sir, imam marasey siiadsu, so waxab ha istalin. I won't agree with you even if the cows come home unless you gave me a different reason to your objection. Yala sis, dig up another reason.

[LayZie G.]

^We agree that Burka is not a religious requirement. Even more, you said burka is a choice for women to wear and at the same time its a vehicle for them to be closer to Allah.

 

What is wrong with that picture? Not a requirement but its almost means of observing or fulfilling a religious requirement when we just concluded that it was not a requirement that a Muslim woman had to fulfill, so what is left? We can't make a proposal for what we deem as being harmful to women, whether they be men or women making the proposal? How can we stand by and not recommend means to banning this garment if all we witness is beatdowns and oppression, which this garment is associated with? Everytime we hear burka, we think dark thoughts, so how can we just stand by and not do anything?

 

You show me the figure that backs up this claim that women wear Burka out of freewill and in fact it is not a tool to pressure them to wear it or sometimes forces through violence as carrying this awful garment on their body. Its the only thing left, as soon as you show me the proof of how many women wear on their own freewill, I will give you hundreds of scenarios why the darn thing is harmful and it goes against the interest of the majority, not the few you have seen or come across and in fact Burka is a threat to our way of living.

[Naden]

^ Layzie, you realize that the practice of muslim faith is not really a do-or-don't kind of thing? It is more of a gradation, a system that rewards more effort. Most muslims fast during Ramadan, a few fast every Monday and Thursday. See what I mean?

 

Is it the compulsion to wear the burka that bothers you? If yes, any sort of compulsion in religion is decidedly un-islamic, so it should bother you. It doesn't strike me as such, though, even in Afghanistan. It seems to be the traditional garb of those folks, worn to ward of the environment. Afghani women in the cities had all but abandoned till the Taliban silliness came to town.

[LayZie G.]

^ what does fasting and prayer or fulfilling your religious duties have anything to do with a garment that we just concluded was never prescribed by Islam nor is Burka prerequisite to being a Muslimah? (let us not drag this discussion back and make it about religion ya Naden, unless you disagree with us(ibti and I) about the basics of the outer garment?)

 

Ibti, I didn't read that last part you wrote earlier but I have to say, you are missing the point in a big way when you start to look for an excuse to change the course of this discussion and speaking of things I never once uttered.(i.e having more aqli than all the women put together or how much naive or even ****** some might be when infact it is not in their power to make a decision, which is why I said they are coerced or atleast appear to be co-erced in terms of pressure from the community to either belong to the click or face isolation. Ofcourse, I didn't discuss the women's intellect because thats a whole new topic... and yes IQ test is doable)

 

But thats beside the point. You are saying women are not coerced, I'm saying they are and the evidence is there for anyone who is looking for it but you obviously want to believe what you want to believe, which is fine, but we are wasting time here, so, are we going to debate the merits here or point fingers and throw accusations of what I think of these women?

 

So far the following is known of Ibti's position:

 

Yes, yes and yes to Burka as a middle east phenomena

 

Yes, yes and yes to Burka as a material that could be worn by women on their freewill but has not proven as just that.

 

Burka and Islam are two separate issues, therefore should be discussed apart from one another. Since burka is not a requirement, religion and mention of religion should not be discussed when arguing for or against banishment of the said garment.(because we have established that religion does not require a woman to wear a burka)

 

Therefore, Burka as a personal choice is left, which Ibti has yet to defend, except the example of the day she wore it herself and never to speak of it again and the few occasiosn she interacts with fellow Burka wearers who insist on telling her that it is a personal choice. Ofcourse thats what they will tell Ibti, they are not fools who are just itching to be lashed thousand times by their hubbies, instead they would tell Ibti what she wants to hear. Ofcourse, ibti comes back to report that Burka is indeed a choice that the woman alone makes, especially living in the west.

 

 

And of Naden, we know the following:

 

She equates fasting with Burka, therefore she disagrees with Ibti and I on the basics of the outer garment. She insist that choice be left to the woman and that it should not be up-to others to decide what a woman wears.(ifts about personal choice, why bring religion into it? I think abti johnny brought up the question)

 

And of C&H, you need not look further than my signature, she agrees with me wholeheartly.

 

And of Cara, she is itching to say yes but fears Johnny...(for reasons that are unknown to us all)

 

So far so good ladies....but again, objecting to my position to have the darn thing banned is not an argument for Burka. Ofcourse without mentioning religion, that would be sufficient as we just established the position religion takes on matters that concern women's garments.

[Naden]

^ Layzie, you can't see that for those in the West, at least, the wearing of a burka is religious observance (whether you agree with its requirement/fard/sunnah/fadl)? My bad, then.

[Ibtisam]

Hello Lazy;

 

This is not going no where because:

1) You have never interacted with Burka wearing women

2) You refuse to try their lifestyle for a while (walk a mile in their shoes as it wore)

3) You think they are all forced, lashed by their partners or brothers/ father

4) You question their intentions (despite the fact you can never know someone’s intention)

5) You feel they are too oppressed to speak up for themselves and even when asked directly, they will lie out of fear

6) You think the Burka is on the same level as drink driving and therefore it is for their benefit to ban it, since they don’t really want to wear it anyway.

 

All I can say if you have created a imaginary world in your mind, where all Burka wearing women are forced or don’t know any better or lack the free will. You refuse to carry any research out in this area, instead your evidence is based on what YOU think, or the limits of your mind, that you cannot imagin for the life of you why any women will otherwise wear such garment.

 

1) I have and do interact with Burka wearing women, they are in my family and I went to Islamic school for 10yrs (In the UK) so many of my childhood friends wear a Niqab or Burka.

 

2) I go out with them as I am, we went to university together and few of them have established themselves in careers such as primary school teaching, working for external labs and data analysis.

 

3) They are not forced or lashed, some of them don’t even have male relatives here.

 

4) You have no way of knowing their intentions

 

5) They have a bigger mouth than you because they spend more time fighting for things they want to do because of people like you. They work that much harder than me and you because they have to proof themselves. They won’t get anywhere by being Burka wearing and timid at the same time.

 

6) As Burka and Drinking driving, although this obviously too ridiculous and does not need me to defend or even comment on, I will give you another example;

High heels Every girl in the west has a pair, even if she never wears it, just in case. I could make the same argument as you did above for their ban, and my claim will have more credibility, medical research to back it up and few cases too. So let’s ban it because according to recent research (you can find it in many sources as it was widely published)

 

1) A third of women suffer permanent problems as a result of their prolonged wearing of 'killer heels', ranging from hammer toes and bunions to irreversible damage to leg tendons.

 

2) High heels make you raise your heel and as soon as you do that your centre of gravity is pushed forward. What happens then is you bend your lower back to compensate for this and that changes the position of your spine, putting pressure on nerves in the back.

 

3) This can cause sciatica, a painful condition where nerves become trapped, triggering pain and numbness as far down as the feet. Another common problem is that the Achilles tendon - which runs up the back of the leg from the heel - becomes permanently damaged.

 

4) Since heels shift your centre of gravity, if attacked, from behind or up front, you have more chance of losing your balance. In addition running away is difficult as you would not get far.

 

5) There are also basic researches about kidney problems etc, but it is not yet proven, just a small correlation.

 

6) As tax payers, when they seek treatment (long term, for long term problems) this puts a strain on the NHS, which we pay for (so yes its affects us)

 

Considering the first 3 facts, and that variety of conditions from corns and calluses to hammertoes, arthritis, chronic knee pain, sprained ankles and back problems are caused by high heels, should heels be banned, or at least regulated so that women do not wear more than 2inches thick heels?

 

Source if you to read more: Healthlink & British medical journal.

 

P.s.

 

You seem to have missed my early point; In islam everything is considered lawful, unless it is made unlawful If you want to make the Burka unlawful you will have to do better than these poor women are beaten in the west and need me to advocate on their behalf.

 

Secondly you also seem to keep ignoring me when I tell you that the Burka is just someone who in their view is going the extra mile.

 

Finally please answer this sincerely:

Can you honestly say that if they wear it for religious reasons (i.e. they sincerely believe that Allah will reward them for going the extra mile and it takes them closer to Allah) that Allah will NOT accept it from them?? Remember in Islam, the precondition of any action is intention.

 

You say Burka is NOT Islam: I keep saying to you that It is Islam if the individual thinks it takes them closer to Allah, it is Islam because it fulfils the basic 7conditions of Hijab. You agreed with me that it fulfill the characteristics of Hijab, but goes beyond and above what it is needed; Fine so be it, but since there are no laws against doing extra curriculum activities to get closer to your lord, then they are free to wear Burka, Niqab, three hijabs and gloves too.

 

Tomorrow, today and the day after till I die I will tell you the same thing;

 

You are going to convince anyone because you seem to think you speak for people you are so far from both physically and in ideology. Furthermore you are willing to experiment with their life, just because you seem think you know their life better than them.

 

If you really want to see things from the other side, follow the basic line of:

1) Neutralize your position, put your ego aside

2) Consider the evidence from both sides

3) Segregate the position of those who are forced and those who make the choice on their own

4) Consider them as human beings who are intelligent and able to make their own decisions

5) Look at the options and support services they have in the west to help victims

6) Accept that there are people who out of their own decision wear the Burka/ niqab

7) Decide if you respect their position or you want to impose your own way.

 

Follow step 1-7, waxab yaan la istaalin, at the end of it you would come to either one of:

• There are some people who wear it out of choice and we’ll leave them to it

• There are people who made that choice but really we know what is better for them and we’ll enforce it

• These women are forced, so let’s help them break the shackles

[NinBrown]

thank you Ibti

[NGONGE]

Better to draw a veil over this daft idea, Nigel Farage

 

UKIP says it hasn’t fully thought through how a burka ban might work. Too right

 

Robert Crampton

 

I’ve a soft spot for Nigel Farage, the former leader of the UK Independence Party. Partly because we were, unbelievably to me, both born in 1964. Yet while I — I trust — on a good day, with the wind in the right direction, look about the age I actually am (younger if my byline picture is to be believed, which it isn’t) Nigel doesn’t look a day under 60.

And partly I like Nigel because he appears to be such a wonderfully English stereotype, a good chap in the Dog and Duck, paying for his G&T with a tenner folded lengthways, have one for yourself, Linda, Jag parked outside, political correctness gone mad, the old health and safety brigade’ll have something to say about that, what about this weather, eh, bring back global warming, I say, hah, hah, hah, etc, etc.

But mostly I like Nigel because just when you might be stuck for something to write about, up he pops on The Andrew Marr Show and says something ******.

 

Put a lid on it

 

What Nigel told Andrew was that his party approves of a ban on “covering of the face in public places and public buildings”. “I can’t go into a bank with a motorcycle helmet on,” he told Marr, “I can’t wear a balaclava going round the District and Circle line.” Therefore, he reasons, veils should be made illegal.

Leaving aside the unsettling image of our hero, clearly a bankrobber manqué, stalking the streets of the capital in a ski mask or skidlid, regretfully having to remove either to get on the Tube or pay in a cheque, and leaving aside also that (along with almost everybody else) I don’t like husbands telling their wives that they can go outdoors only if they wear a black sheet, there’s always trouble when the Government tries to tell citizens what to wear. Things tend to get very silly very quickly.

It isn’t just (a minority of) Muslim women who wear the veil. What about weddings? Lovely summer Saturday, happy bride arrives at the church, ding, dong, over here for the photos please, hold on, here’s PC Plod, what’s he up to? No, surely not, oh I say, that’s outrageous, he’s ripping off the bridal veil, he’s jumping up and down on it. Groom rushes out to intervene, inevitable fracas, would-be Mr and Mrs So-and-so spend their big day in the cells.

What about grieving widows? That could get messy. What about beekeepers? There’ll be some nasty stings. What about actresses filming Edwardian costume dramas? The manicured lawn, the basket of cut flowers, the straw hat, the decorous turn-of-the- century silk tulle, these images are part of the fabric of mid-evening British telly. All gone. Rent asunder.

 

Take it on the chin

 

Nige isn’t just talking about veils, though, he’s gunning for anything that covers the face, hence his motorbike and balaclava references. There’ll be an exemption for protective headgear, but what is protective? In the recent cold, a balaclava was legitimate protection against frostbite of the chin, mouth and nose.

Will it be OK to wear a balaclava if the temperature drops below a certain level? How will we know? Will Nigel make an announcement? On Twitter? “Chilly enough 2 muffle up this morning, ladies and gents. Must B removed by lunchtime, 4cast is it’s warming up!!!” Some scarves, worn high and tightly wound, can obscure pretty much the entire face, indeed that being the idea. How will Nige distinguish?

What about those masks some cyclists wear? Surgeons doing operations? Groucho Marx disguises you buy in the joke shop? Face paint? Tattoos? How about rugby players who like to dress as nurses? Extrovert types in fancy dress at parades, carnivals, fetes? How about Hallowe’en? What to do about those fine upstanding law-abiding Englishmen and women whose favoured leisure activities necessitate the use of a gimp mask? And, perhaps of most interest and importance, where would Nige’s ban leave the Stig?

How about long fringes? Heavy make-up? Sunglasses? Furry animal suits as worn by mascots at football matches? Cricketers facing fast bowling (but not the spinners)? Am-drams putting on Equus? Pantomime horses? People who run the London Marathon dressed as medieval knights? Who’s under that helmet? Is she oppressed? Has she got a bomb?

 

Getting a bit hairy

 

A couple of miles north of my house is Stamford Hill, an area of North London popular with orthodox Jews. Big bushy beards, thick specs, oversized black hats, plus the women are fond of wigs. I have to tell you Nige, their faces are pretty well covered, it’s hard to say who’s who under all that gear, all that hair. What shall we do? Ban the big hats? The specs? Best be on the safe side, best chop those big beards off as well, like the Nazis did with the rabbis on Kristallnacht.

Nige admits that the razor-sharp minds staffing UKIP’s policy unit haven’t yet fully thought through how such a ban might work in practice. Too right.

 

 

Source

[Thierry.]

If Layzie can come back from that, I will take off my kufi and roll down my trousers below the ankles.

 

nice article Ngonge

[N.O.R.F]

A couple of miles north of my house is Stamford Hill, an area of North London popular with orthodox Jews. Big bushy beards, thick specs, oversized black hats, plus the women are fond of wigs. I have to tell you Nige, their faces are pretty well covered, it’s hard to say who’s who under all that gear, all that hair. What shall we do? Ban the big hats? The specs? Best be on the safe side, best chop those big beards off as well, like the Nazis did with the rabbis on Kristallnacht.

[Abtigiis]

Thanks Ngonge. kkkkkkkkkkkkkk. I am already a fan of This Robert Crampton. How often does he post his stuff! Hilarious.

 

who is under that helmet? Is she oppressed? Has she got a bomb?

 

ilmaa iga socota qosol dartii! Collegues are worried!

[Oz]

In Eastleigh,Nairobi they are those who wear half (top) hijaab with indho shareer and dirac underneath lifted from the ground. when asked why wear this? she said this means " Abow ilasoco". till now am still figuring out what it meant.

 

enough SOL dose for the day.

[Sherban Shabeel]

Good form Ibti!