Economic Apartheid in America (and the world)

[xiinfaniin]

Castro, you’re indicting capitalism because America bi’isay soow maaha? Regulation is a must but don’t be mistaken there is a world of difference between regulating a system so it can function well and owning and laying claim on the entire resource of the nation and assuming the role of dispenser.

 

Liban, I agree.

[SeeKer]

Castro:

black marketeers and grafters will come to dominate your system.Black markets always thrive in an atmosphere of imposed economic dictates that run contrary to the basic instincts of humankind. Despite the rhetoric and selfless idealism of those who support such "pie-in-the-sky" goals as total equality of wealth and an egletarian society, individuals with brains, cunning and cleverness will always garner a larger piece of the pie for themselves. It is human nature. In Orwell's animal farm these were the pigs who ultimately deemed themselves "more equal than the others." In the end all became their slaves.

 

Now I wonder if you agree with such summations as these?

[Castro]

^ For the most part, I do. But I will counter that by saying: equally "clever and cunning" people with brains would work hard to see that the earlier group does not dominate and subjugate the rest for their own selfish reasons. Being clever, cunning and greedy does not mean you will not face resistence from clever, cunning and compassionate folk. Like me!

 

It's an eternal struggle.

[Cara.]

Castro,

 

Black markets can be combatted with law enforcement...

Who'll watch the watchers?

 

Castro, you are too good a man to realize that

 

1) You are limited in your actions by your compassion, but greedy SOB have no such compunctions. They will always win, from creating false documents that show non-existent children so they can get more milk, to bribing law enforcement, to any number of clever tricks to acquire wealth/status.

 

2)You are presuming you will live forever as the compassionate king, when in reality your 11 sons are waiting impatiently for you to die so they can make the economy "efficient" (ie, line their pockets). Maybe you are thinking that you will select the best of them as heir?

[Legend of Zu]

^^^LoL not to mention..that some may mix the milk with water to maximize volumes and then sell it in the black market...

 

Cheers

[Castro]

^ It's not as hopeless as you guys think. If you look at Cuba as an example, you will see that despite a crippling 45 year trade embargo from the giant to the north, it has a lower infant mortality rate, a comparable if not higher literacy rate and a much more comprehensive health care system than the "capitalist" haven, the US. Wealth is not the size of your economy but how many people are impoverished in your country.

 

These scenarios you're bringing up, though legitimate, can all be dealt with via proper planning and strategic use of violence against the aggressors. Compassion, my friends, does not mean lack of courage in the face of evil. And greed is evil.

[SeeKer]

Castro:

Yes indeed, let take a look at good old Cuba. Cuba is a mix of Communism/Socialism state theoretically. Starting with communism. I assume you know what communism stands for since you seem to be waving its flag.Communism depends on tyranny, as in all command-and control state centered system must. Conservative and libertarian

philosophical principles place the preservation of individual liberty and personal responsibility at the top of any legitimate state agenda.

Even though we may fall short of our objective, a system that strives for individual liberty and freedom is inexorably superior to any of the dictatorial tyrannies that typify much of mankind's history.

You bring to head the fact that Cuba touts the best education and health system in the world. I agree but what two things in a sea of improvished services. Cubans these days live on less that $10/day (in Cuban pesos). They have no freedom of speech and receive rationing of food from the government. They actually get a bucket of food and have to get marked off in a red book.

Socialism kills individual incentive and invention, depresses productivity and is never going to change.What kind of system are you vying for when a waitress/maid tips are more than a monthly salary of a degree holders. Castro, if you believe in this system so much dear would you be willing to live in it at this moment. Ask for a visa from the state department and live in Cuba. Sorry to draw this comparison but its almost like slavery. The more you work instead of being rewarded you end up being given more work. Should the "slave" be grateful because you feed, cloth and house him? Should he not seek freedom because their lot in life is better than the "poor" americans?

 

**Just a thought**

[Castro]

^ Sounding like a south Florida Cuban dissident, are we now? I should remind you that the state of Cuba, in the absence of the embargo, would certainly have been different than it is now. It would not have near the difficult economic issues that it needlessly faces now. Your claim that communism stifles 'individual incentive and invention' is a weak one at best. It's weak because it implies that the only reason for humans to invent is to get wealth out of it. That's not true and you know it. Be that as it may, would it be possible that such an embargo (as the one imposed on Cuba) is motivated, in part, by ensuring that socialist-communism is shown to not be a viable alternative to capitalism? Think about that for a moment.

 

Now back to your feeble liberty/freedom issue. It is true that the US (as the symbol of modern day capitalism) boasts of individual freedoms and liberties. It is also true that such things as freedom of the press (though one could argue media consolidation in the hands of a few reneges on the freedom promise) and other forms freedoms do exist as well. Your (flawed) conclusion then is that all these freedoms must have led to this incredible wealth the US is enjoying at the moment. That is a very faulty cause and effect relationship for you are ignoring many facts. That over centuries of free labor (during slavery) and modern day economic (using currency, subsidies, the IMF, world bank, etc..) and military (invasion and occupation of resource-rich areas e.g. Saudi Arabia and Iraq) hegemony, the created (or robbed) wealth is maintained.

 

But even with all that ill-gotten wealth, 45 million Americans (1 in 6) are without any health care or are under insured. The number of people living in poverty is constantly on the rise. The real wages of workers have been shrinking for decades and worker unions are virtually non existent. Of course, the natural outcome to all of this is GM announcing, just this week, lay offs of 30,000 manufacturing workers the week of Thanksgiving. Imagine that. Workers who had no input into the design, marketing or sale of the vehicles but will pay for the mistakes of the ruling elite who cannot and will not loose their livelihoods. That's just one example. Another about innovation is pharmaceuticals who continually charge exorbitant amounts of money for new medications (while they're conveniently under patent) claiming much went into researching them. Well, if the people who need these meds can't afford them, WTF was the point of discovering them in the first place? Of course, Canada (right next door) has affordable and universal health care and medication programs. Why? Because they've put limits on what corporations and individuals can do to affect the lives of their citizens. Though with continuous pressure from the US, Canada is slowly losing its people-centric system. We'll see.

 

When there is a race for wealth accumulation, humanity gets into a race to the bottom. Individuals become consumers. Corporations (and their elite owners) become the producers. Though a predator and prey relationship is more accurate.

 

I've said enough for today. A domani.

 

P.S. I'd love to live in Cuba. And if I'm fortunate, insha Allah, I will.

[SeeKer]

Originally posted by Castro:

I should remind you that the state of Cuba, in the absence of the embargo, would certainly have been different than it is now. It would not have near the difficult economic issues that it needlessly faces now.

Here I am assuming that you are speaking of the US embargo? Fallacy in the arguement is that doesn't that mean that your -ism depends on the economic "freedom"/capitalism of US?

 

would it be possible that such an embargo (as the one imposed on Cuba) is motivated, in part, by ensuring that socialist-communism is shown to

not

be a viable alternative to capitalism?

Maybe that is the case but we are talking about merits of your system and looking at history you can not but see that it has failed in the past.

 

 

As to everything else I never said the system was perfect but I think it is better (my opinion) than socio/commi system.

 

Si cela était une tentative à français, j'aimerais dire que j'espère que votre espagnol est meilleur

[Castro]

^ Unfortunately, my spanish needs a lot of work.

 

If capitalism with all this wealth is not head and shoulders above a puny economy (with an embargo no less) such as Cuba, then capitalism is inherently flawed as a system. That's what I've been trying to drive home.

 

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

you’re indicting capitalism because America bi’isay soow maaha?

Yes, this is my indictment. If the very best example of capitalism is the United States, if all that is good about capitalism can be seen in the US, then capitalism is a rotten and unsustainable system.

[LANDER]

Originally posted by Castro:

^

 

 

Black markets can be combatted with law enforcement and removing the

demand for them.

 

how? and won't there always be an incentive to cheat in a market where quotas exist?

 

It's an interesting topic though Castro I don't know if you've taken a course in International Political Economy (or GPE), but I'm sure they offer something along those lines @ UBC. If not you can read up on Susan Strange and Robert Cox, I think Cox would be geared more to your views.

[Castro]

^ The incentive to cheat is always there. Curbing corruption is a never ending battle and some corruption will go undetected. The goal is not to have it as the standard operating procedure.

 

I did math at UBC and took comparative religion and anthropolgy as electives. The economics of power and hegemony is a recent passion of mine.