Ends DO NOT justify means

[underdog]

I can assume we know what that statement means. Your goal or what you want to accomplish does not validate how you get there. I'm bringing this up because it seems we can easily avoid seeing the whole picture by focusing on a positive out come.

 

Example:

1) End: Comedic entertainment, cultural religious education.

Means: touring around establishments that primarily sell alcohol and performing for intoxicated audience.

 

2) End: Provide for your family and make sure the don't go cold or hungry.

Means: Sell Crack and weed

 

3) End: Writing a book to help research misconceptions and contradictions about your faith.

Means: Breaking one of the biggest rules of your faith and publishing through and for outsiders that can't relate and are quick to shun.

 

 

I need some help here. Can I get some more examples?

[Reality Check]

Originally posted by underdog:

 

3) End: Writing a book to help research misconceptions and contradictions about your faith.

Means: Breaking one of the biggest rules of your faith and publishing through and for outsiders that can't relate and are quick to shun.

 

 

I need some help here. Can I get some more examples? [/QB]

are you kidding me? Why can't someone publish your novel from a non-muslim company and sell to non-muslims? If we can't sell anything to non-muslims..none of us would be here

[underdog]

so when you have problems with your family you go talk to joe schmoe on the street?

[Abdinuur]

I'm probably confused with the topic but I disagree with your statement playa: "Your goal or what you want to accomplish does not validate how you get there."

 

If this doesnt, then what validates your accomplishments and your goals?

 

Also, who says put an end to all of this? Just cuz society says it so doesnt mean we have to accept it.

 

Maybe eloborate on this little bit more and we might get an little bit more understanding of the topic.

 

Aight playa

[Inquisitive_Chick]

Kaafi..what the brotha is referrin to is the old sayin 'the ends justify the means'..which essentially means that it doesn't matter what steps u take or methods you use to get to ur desired goals as long as those goals are attained...

for ex. if my objective is to become CEO of a major corporation, and instead of using my business savvy, intelligence, and hard work, i sleep around with some important ppl...it wouldn't matter cuz my desired goal..i.e. becoming CEO..has been gained...

[Abdinuur]

Inquisitive_Chick, okay. It works for some people. I mean if they choose to run their lifestyle that way, then they will get whatever their intentions are.

 

But it depends though. It's how you live your life. For instance, providing for your family and making sure they're healthy, doesnt mean you go and sell crack. There are always alternatives that one can pursue. What happened to going to school and earning a degree that pays?

 

What happened to xalaal choices and Islamic ways of living?

 

This is off the topic: There are so many people who became too lazy and totally different. People were hardworkers in the old days and all of the sudden you notice how everything evolved into negative and abnormal conditions.

[Haashim]

"The ends justify the Means" is a wrong rule in Islam and meant in Arabic "AL-QAAYATU TUBARRIRU AL-WASIILA" the right rule is "AL-QAAYATU LAA TUBARRIRU AL-WASIILA" The ends DO NOT justify the Means. However, there are many disbuted areas which some uluma are saying they're HARAAM while others saying they're PERMISSIBLE.

 

For example to be a member of parliment in Egypt, saudi arabia, Jordan Yemen etc. some uluma say these governments do not rule according ALLAH and his MESSNGERS will. therefore it is HARAAM to be a member of their parliment etc. in addition, they argue, when you're entering their parliment etc. you've to accept their constitution (which is man-made constitution) and to obbey the king, president etc (who doesn't rule according Quran and Sunnah), while others are saying although they're doing many wrong and sinfull things, it is permissble to be a member of their cabinet with the intention of reforming what they've damaged. these Uluma ae arguing that these rulers, desbite their crimes, are Muslim so we have to work with them to achieve our ends since there is no evidence prohibiting us to work with them. they argue that we can work with non-muslims in order to help muslims, therefore no problem at all to work with them to help muslims.

 

Therefore, this rule is only valid when there's no disbute over the MEANS.

 

there are many examples about this issue but i think this one is enough.

[Reality Check]

Originally posted by underdog:

so when you have problems with your family you go talk to joe schmoe on the street?

If joe schmo is a therapist with a degree, why not? You still didn't answer the question.

[wind talker]

Joe Schmo or Joe the Cracker, whether he has a Ph.D in clinical therapy or not, is not always the solution to family problems. Explain why there's a remarkably high rate of suicide among dentists! Western folk can't understand the simplest of all idealogies: money and wealth don't earn you happiness. That's why they write endless ethnographies trynta decipher what makes rigid cultures that face the harshest conditions and realities but the people are still HAPPY! While a married dentist with a $100,000+ yearly income is committing suicide.

 

MURAAD -

 

You had excellent points. I do agree with the Ulema who say that being a member of the Egyptian, Saudi, etc governments constitutes an act that is considered HARAM for this simple reason: not only are they ruling un-Islamically, but they're tryants at that! The aforementioned nations are by tradition Muslim nations but the leaders aren't expressing the will of the governed. In my opinion, Arab leaders don't have the balls to face the people who own 80%+ of their economy! Malaysia's leader made a speech last year about relations between Islamic states and the West and his views were passionate and honest. The Islamic world needs more leaders of this nature!

[Reality Check]

Originally posted by wind talker:

Joe Schmo or Joe the Cracker, whether he has a Ph.D in clinical therapy or not, is not always the solution to family problems. Explain why there's a remarkably high rate of suicide among dentists! Western folk can't understand the simplest of all idealogies: money and wealth don't earn you happiness. That's why they write endless ethnographies trynta decipher what makes rigid cultures that face the harshest conditions and realities but the people are still HAPPY! While a married dentist with a $100,000+ yearly income is committing suicide.

Ok? What's this got to do with the topic at hand?

[underdog]

Originally posted by Opinionated:

If we can't sell anything to non-muslims..none of us would be here

Does that not depend on WHAT you're selling? If I published a book on Somali tribes, detailing how tribe A is a bunch of theiving murdering low-lifes and Tribe B can never be trusted because they'll sell you out to the highest bidder and kill you in your sleep and Tribe C is known for having homosexuals and prostitutes. If I wrote that book and mass produced it through Goldstein and Walberg for Cash, you're saying that fine because it's just a means to an end, right?

[wind talker]

EXPLANATION -

 

I believe someone had a comment in regards to seeing a Joe Schmo with a degree in therapy. My idea was to show that therapy doesn't always revolve around the degrees. Can't believe people are so materialistic nowadays! In the Islamic world, the Qur'an is read on a person who experiences mental breakdowns or disorders. Throughout history, there have been therapists and psychologists who didn't graduate from college or even necessarily knew how to read. While I do support the idea of therapy for the mentally ill, I don't see what having a diploma has to do with treatment.

 

A majority of the dentists who were studied during the suicide rate dilemma were actually seeing therapists on a regular basis. It's either false therapy or shitty therapists. You choose. But a piece of paper has little to do wit the practice! Peace.

[Reality Check]

Originally posted by wind talker:

EXPLANATION -

 

Can't believe people are so materialistic nowadays! In the Islamic world, the Qur'an is read on a person who experiences mental breakdowns or disorders.

lol are you kidding? Please say you are! So if I have cancer, I should call my local Imam to have him read the Koran over me? Therapists are SPECIALISTS in their fields and therapy has EVOLVED during the ages, as did medicince and technology. The way people treated illness during the Islamic era is not the same way we practice now. As with dentists committing suicide, Therapists aren't Gods and when a person's time is up ...its up!

[wind talker]

^^^

 

Lissen lady, I ain't here to tell you what you should do when you're ill. But don't disrespect the power of the Qur'an. Whether we're in the 'Islamic era' or in the 'Information n Technology era,' the Qur'an is always the Qur'an - and it's the best source of medicine. That's only if you have FAITH!

 

Good luck sis!

[Reality Check]

lol I never said anything about the power of ALLAH. If He wants you to be healed, then so it shall be. In the meantime, how would you treat illness such as schizophernia (?sp) or Clinical depression?