Let me break this little party up. UnderDog, since you’re all for getting personal, let me ask you this (without assuming like you would ) Have you ever gone to a party? (those Somali raves? Even if its just to see whats it like and realize how unsuitable it is) Have you ever danced in a wedding with some1? (could be relatives) Have you ever heard the strange rumour making the rounds that you liked some1 you didn’t really like? Have you ever liked a girl and went out for coffee with her, took her out? If the answer to any of these questions is YES, then my dear… my point is clear. These are not things to hold against some1. Although against the Islamic belief, it’s a fact that most people in their late teens, early 20ties indulge in these things at one point or the other. If you want to level some1 as an undercover compulsive raver, it would mean that you were at every party too and that since you are friends with the person in question and he has no qualms with ur morality, he prolly wont hers too. Some things are difficult to hide and if the sister was a compulsive raver, then its either 1. You friend will find out soon enough or already knows. 2. The sister is making conscious efforts to be better since she wants to settle for your high-morale friend. In which case, you would be messing things up unnecessarily. Forgiveness is from Allah, not you or your friend and you shouldn’t stand in the way of those trying to get it. Its so much more easier to tarnish the image of some1 than it is to understand them and hide their personal ceeb. Human relationships are dynamic and different situations call for different judgments. Mentioning any of the above is gossiping because you’re concerning yourself with the socializing and social relationships of another person which is really NON OF YOUR BUSINESS to begin with. Unless you’re trailing them 24/7, seeing them in an awkward place does not say much about their morality. Otherwise half the Somali youth would be considered immoral sub-humans unworthy of marriage which is a gross simplification. Lastly, it would serve your purpose if you didn’t reply to people with “if you don’t like cooking, you prolly cant†and “if you’re not condemning gossiping about people’s lives, you prolly have something in your closet†mentality every single instance. Singing the same tune gets monotonous. This personally makes me annoyed and more often than not makes the discussion useless. No1 is going to reply to you honestly if keep making snide ( and witty to the non-addressees) remarks at every opportunity. Not everyone speaks of every topic on a personal level, most people want to bring balance, multi dimensional view to the debate and those are the underlining success factors in any exchange.

^ Absolutely love your list

I just got this feeling that I'm trying to prove the evils of interest and usury to a bunch of bankers... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: There is absolutely zero point in conversing with some1 who makes quick assumptions.

I don’t think there is anything wrong in “sharing information†as long as you’re not out to disrepute the person wilfully and at your own gains/ego. While its not only crucial but quite beyond the pale to withhold information about illness’, addictions (past or present), any crime, etc. it’s a different matter all together when your “information†entails “who so n so was seeing previously†and the “places so n so was seen dancing†or “the parties so and so attends†or the “friends so n so keepsâ€. These are not an indication of some1’s real persona or how they will behave with the new person. Fun is the folly of the young and its just very narrow minded of any1 to want to spread something to that effect.

Soomaalidu gumeeysi jeclaa, Alloow ceebta noo astur It’s a lot easier to shout foul than to be in my position and resist the temptation to reply in kind to offending arguments. While I realize some might take pride in their knowledge of Islam, a good Muslim always knows his boundaries and limitations in it just as well. As a moderator, its my responsibility to ensure that topics don’t deter into an “embarrassing exchange†or belittlement of members. This is just to safeguard the basic principles on which the site is run. I like to think I’m a reasonable and approachable person and that when some1 feels they are being wronged or has a problem with me or other members, they can just PM me assured in the knowledge that I’ll be as fair as possible. On that same note, when I feel some1 is sending contradictory and ambiguous notes in the pretext of teaching the rest of us about Islam, I have every right to call them out. No matter what any1 says, a lot of hadith needs to be accompanied by a logical and time lined explanation. In this regard, I’ve never questioned whether Allah could/would turn people into animals. Neither have I invalidated the hadeeths as false. I took an issue with the presentation of facts. That said, this topic has outlived its usefulness 10 replies back and has failed to get back on track despite my efforts (prolly not good enough on my part – I agree) and shows promising signs of continuing in the same vain from the looks of it and on that account will be locked. Under no circumstance is it acceptable to disrespect me, or each other.

^ I'm NOT american, you nits. UD, there haven’t been many contenders for the coveted Mr. Caveman Title. Looks like its gonna be yours for the taking. Aren’t you a little worried that you’re regressing? Mr.Caveman is only matched by the lifetime achievement award at the CFW Men to avoid at all costs Ceremony.

This discussion is over. You're NOT deserving of an answer.

I wonder why you’re so furious and spitting holy-swathed insults my way all day (prolly because I'm right on every instance! ). I said I’ll get home and get back to you? And here you are going off at half cock. Could it be that I caught you by the short and curlies? I’ve completely lost any respect for you Rahima. And I didn’t insult you, I gave you sound advice. If you keep up this little shameless parody without making an ounce of sense, I’ll quit replying to you and lock this topic. Find somewhere else to vent your frustrations.

So we were so effortlessly supposed to connect the dots miya? Must be me. :rolleyes: Rahima, your unpaid research was weak. Now you have blatantly said that the Quran (the complete book) just mentioned ONE tribe (and specified the animals regarding the same tribe) of the jews in the sura while conveniently leaving out the rest so that the “hadith†can reveal the rest. I’m not home but I’A when I do get there, I’ll show you proof that there weren’t a tonne of Bani’esreal tribes that were transformed at different times into different animals which is exactly what ur feedings us! About the rest of ur blah blah… this lil charade of righteousness is tedious. I’ll let you have the last word, Walaahi I could barely read all that drivel, let alone respond to the number of inconsistencies in your entire argument. At that point, I was under the impression I was conversing with my sister in Islam who was curious about the existence of a particular issue, not an impending argument to discredit me or the hadiths as ambiguous.

Hibo, Hibo You’re fighting a loosing battle sweets. UD is the winner of the prestigious and quite honourable (among his ilk) titles of Mr. Chauvinist (2003) and Mr. Misogynist (2004). He is a one track mind fellow and there is no changing that… do don’t be spending too much of your energy here.

Originally posted by Psycho_Sue: Kaleidoscope & Legend of Zu (There’s your Chinese bloke ) close enough?) Thanks. Atleast I know that was sincere. LOZ is one of my favourite Nomads. ...adigana waxaan ku siiyey ka is kibrinaya aka Xoogsade.

Zumurrud, It was out of awkwardness. I was actually happy to see him and wanted to prep him up for the interview and welcome him ... but then I remembered how Faarax's take every kind gesture as a 'come on' and the thought I might have to work with him crept it.... .... I decided silence is golden indeed. Time will tell. If would be nice if he got the job. LOL@the rejected faaraxs Afromali n Sky. (what a lovely Story Sky )

No traits of Somaliness. She cautiously answered my question looking at me with scary eyes and totally not anything like a Maali. What Somali trait? Which Somali ‘trait’ tells you to smile and be nice to strangers at that time of the night, being a woman? Brother, you need to look at the situation from her side. This is really not a questions of Somalinimo or Somali hospitality. Its a matter of being cautious. p.s. The reaction might have been more courteous if you were a woman.

What were you expecting? Perhaps a ‘welcome to the country hug’? Maybe in sheekada laguu dheereeyo, long enough to find out her history and personal links…and if you’re super lucky – how you could possibly be related! You asked for direction, you were given directions. Just ‘cause you’re a Somali doesn’t mean you’re family nor does it warrant any special treatment. You’re a stranger, she treated you like one. Basics of protection mate. Be grateful she even spoke to you and move along Geel-Jire. p.s. I went to get my lunch 2hrs ago and saw a Somali guy waiting for an interview. He seemed anxious and I felt, he expected me to approach him and say something…but I just couldn’t. Although Somali, it feels awkward.

Rahima, suck it up. I’m bored of your repetitive and meaningless posts. The discussion has ceased to be meaningful. I have said everything I wanted to say in my 1st post. I don’t need to continue this because unlike you, I actually have better things to occupy my time with than a nonsensical argument. You went and searched for a hadith to justify something ridiculous. Found some irrelevant hadiths, some unauthentic ones and some ambiguous ones. Since they clear to you, you might want to explain then, ok?. But, for my own part, it was Greek to me. Lets leave the snide remarks there and get back to the hadith, shall we? Here goes… 3. Rasûlullâh sallallâhu ‘alayhi wa sallam said that at such a time, expect the following punishments: a red hurricane will come and some people will be drawn into the ground. Stones will rain down from the skies. The appearance of people will be transformed, i.e. they will be turned into pigs and dogs. Many other calamities will follow one after the other in quick succession just as when a string of beads breaks up and the beads begin falling off in quick succession. I asked you politely to explain this hadith since you brought it on …. You reply, As for the third, inshallah i shall try to find the exact source. I remember studying it years ago, i just googled to find it based on my recollection. I'll get back to you as soon as i can As for people being trasnformed at the time of Rasuallah i do not know, but like i said Bukhari and Muslim are as about authentic as the hadiths get. 1. You never explained or went back to it. 2. Evidently from your OWN statement, you didn’t know about the issue, YET just to win the argument, you give us more ambiguous hadith to justify that same point you admitted to NOT KNOWING. Then you gimme this Surah which is the only explicitly clear one and it specifically refers to a certain time in history: Say (O Muhammad to the people of the Scripture): "Shall I inform you of something worse than that, regarding the recompense from Allah: those (Jews) who incurred the Curse of Allah and His Wrath, those of whom (some) He transformed into monkeys and swines, those who worshipped Taghut (false deities); such are worse in rank (on the Day of Resurrection in the Hellfire), and far more astray from the Right Path And then: Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "A group of Israelites were lost. Nobody knows what they did. But I do not see them except that they were cursed and changed into rats, for if you put the milk of a she-camel in front of a rat, it will not drink it, but if the milk of a sheep is put in front of it, it will drink it." I told this to Ka'b who asked me, "Did you hear it from the Prophet?" I said, "Yes." Ka'b asked me the same question several times; I said to Ka'b. "Do I read the Torah? (i.e. I tell you this from the Prophet.)" Bukhari This hadith conflicts with the above verse for the jews in the Sura were turned into monkey and swines(pigs NOT rats) and then the hadith says Rats. The hadith was posted NEXT TO THE verse, yet seems to contractict it. And this my dear, constitutes MIS-QUOTING and MISUNDERSTANDING in my books! This is why THE CONTEXT is important. Something I subtlety tried to tell you in my 1st post…. ! Also the hadith seems illogical in context: The prophet scw says he DOESN’T KNOW what the jews did and HE DOESN’T SEE THEM but he is SURE they were changed into rats? HOW? And the rest of the stuff about milk and rats…. Not a clue here! Like I said to you Rahima, there are benefits one can gain from reading the hadith on their own… but you cant understand it all unless you not only speak the language and understand Arabic (which I assume you don’t), but read other literature concerning hadith and preferably have a teacher. Hadith complements the Quran, not the other way around. And every sura was revealed at a certain time and the hadith must also be time lined. And as authentic as Al bukhari and Muslim are, they still not 100% accurate or infallible like the Quran. Again this hadith is even more unclear! Abu Sa'id reported that an Arab of the desert came to God's Messenger1 and said: I live in a low land abounding in lizards, and these are the common diet of my family, but he (the Holy Prophet) did not make any reply. We said to him: Repeat it (your problem) and so he repeated it, but he did not make any reply. (It was repeated thrice ) Then God's Messenger1 called him out at the third time saying: O man of the desert, verily God cursed or showed wrath to a tribe of Bani Isra'il and distorted them to beasts which move on the earth. I do not know, perhaps this (lizard) may be one of them. So I do not eat it, nor do I prohibit the eating of it. Muslim This hadith conflicts with the verse in the Sura AGAIN for it says beasts. Also, does this mean the fact that they were turned into lizards is clear and the specific lizards have no identifying ways or whether they turned at all is unclear? Does it refer to the same time as the Sura? Am I the only one who feels these hadith do an injustice to the prophet scw when put here like Rahima did? And more: Narrated Abu 'Amir or Abu Malik Al-Ash'ari: that he heard the Prophet saying, "From among my followers there will be some people who will consider illegal sexual intercourse, the wearing of silk, the drinking of alcoholic drinks and the use of musical instruments, as lawful. And there will be some people who will stay near the side of a mountain and in the evening their shepherd will come to them with their sheep and ask them for something, but they will say to him, 'Return to us tomorrow.' Allah will destroy them during the night and will let the mountain fall on them, and He will transform the rest of them into monkeys and pigs and they will remain so till the Day of Resurrection." Bukhari I personally do not follow this entire hadith. The 1st part seems general, while the second part specific. Care to elaborate? Lastly, Narrated Abu Amir or Abu Malik: AbdurRahman ibn Ghanam al-Ash'ari said: Abu Amir or Abu Malik told me--I swear by Allah another oath that he did not believe me that he heard the Apostle of Allah say: There will be among my community people who will make lawful (the use of) khazz and silk. Some of them will be transformed into apes and swine. Abu Dawud This isn’t authentic, so no need to go into it. The authentic ones are ambiguous enough. Final note, NONE of these hadith prove anything. No1 questioned IF Allah swt could turn people into animals for that’s a ludicrous thing to say. There have been instances were whole tribes were cursed – im sure every muslim who reads the Quran is aware of this. Since then, there have been no reported and proven instances of this happening (unless you have prove of this as I haven’t heard!). I think its rude and quite disrespectful the way you address people in religious matters Rahima and quite contradictory to Islamic mannerism. All I asked was for you to clarify the hadith that you brought forth and you started to foam at the mouth instead and ask me to get the books! Either you know and you’re willing to share dear, or you don’t and in which case you aught to put a sock in it. Like you said, this is turning into a "humiliation session", so turn this around and dont adress me, exclusively address the hadith!

deleted.

LOL @ Rahima. That last reply was seriously disappointing. Its not the 1st time I've come across an amateur-hadeeth-waver and I reckon it wont be the last... but hey, Summary: Kale: Don’t quote hadeeth if you cant explain the context. Except for one, all the rest of the hadeeth quoted is ambigious. Rahima: I’ll quote random hadeeth as I see fit. Its your job to find the context if you don’t blv or understand it. Kale: Since you brought it on...share the knowledge. Its better way to have an islamic discourse.

Rahima, It seems to me like you’ve completely ignored the underlying message in my earlier reply. You’ve also mastered the art of selective response. I’ll quote myself earlier In other words, there are benefits the ordinary Muslim can expect from personally reading hadeeth, and benefits that he cannot, unless he is both trained and uses other literature, particularly the classical commentaries that explain the hadeeth meanings and their relation to Islam as a whole My post was not about the authenticity of Bukhari and Muslim or even if Allah swt could turn people into animals, but who should quote hadeeth. Simple. I see from the way you post, that you do not qualify! I felt the hadeeth you quoted needed to be put in a context to make sense or make your point clearer as it was said in a specific time to a specific person (this does not mean it cant apply for all times, but it just means that the accompanying circumstances form a important part in relaying the point) . If you cant explain and expand on a hadeeth, I sincerely blv you shouldnt be quoting it as you only muddy the waters further. Infact, looking at the string of hadeeth you linked me to… no person without sound knowledge will make a head or tail of them! A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Ok, so the question was, does Allah turn people into animals? No. I never asked this question. Perhaps ur confusing me with Sky. Rahima, I say what I’ve to say and I leave it at that. I don’t like going on and on about the same point as I easily reach saturation point with any topic. So re-read the 1st post on this page again, reflect and be careful about quoting hadeeth if you're not learned in the science of quoting hadeeth and making sense of them. This is our religion and its not about proving your point by hook or by crook. p.s. I have made some general points, but I blv they serve the overall purpose of my argument.

Rahima, In my experience, when a learned person/sheikh quotes a hadeeth, they mention the precise time, the circumstances under which the prophet said so and explain the context of the hadeeth. (and if it was an academic discussion, include the chain of reporters!). So YES, the hadeeth are STRAY for you have failed to accompany it with any of the above! I’m not in the habit of quoting hadeeth or the Quran, for you simply cannot quote a text without providing the context or atleast having some knowledge of when it was said and under what context. I agree that some of the hadeeth are quite clear, but the ones you have quoted ARE NOT and I’m sure 90% of the people reading them have some or the other misunderstaning of either the applicability or the context! Any Muslim can benefit from reading hadeeth from al-Bukhari and Muslim, whether on his own or with others. As for studying hadeeth, the science of hadeeth deals with a vast and complex literature, a tremendous sea of information that requires a pilot to help one navigate, without which one is bound to run up on the rocks. In this context, "Whoever doesn't have a sheikh, the Devil is his sheikh, in any Islamic discipline." Without a guiding hand, the untrained reader will misunderstand many of the hadiths he reads, and these mistakes, if assimilated and left uncorrected, may pile up until he can never find his way out of them, let alone become a scholar. In other words, there are benefits the ordinary Muslim can expect from personally reading hadeeth, and benefits that one cannot, unless one is both trained and uses other literature, particularly the classical commentaries that explain the hadeeth meanings and their relation to Islam as a whole. The benefits one can derive from reading al-Bukhari and Muslim are many: general knowledge of such fundamentals as the belief in Allah, the messengerhood of the Prophet scw, the Last Day and so on; as well as the general moral prescriptions of Islam to do good, avoid evil, perform the prayer, fast Ramadan, and so forth. The hadeeth collections also contain many other interesting points, such as the great rewards for acts of worship like the midmorning prayer (duha), the night vigil prayer (tahajjud), fasting on Mondays and Thursdays, giving voluntary charity, and so on. Anyone who reads these and puts them into practice in his life has an enormous return for reading hadeeth, even more so if he aims at perfecting himself by attaining the noble character traits of the Prophet scw, mentioned in hadeeth. Whoever learns and follows the prophetic example in these matters has triumphed in this world and the next. What I’m saying is reading and quoting hadeeth from Al-Bukhari and Muslim on your own at any given opportunity is not advised. From your discussions, I have noted that this is the case and you, like myself are a student of Islam and not in a position to quote hadeeth in any discussion you feel it applies. You and others on this board, have a habit of decidedly quoting hadeeth and then presenting it as ‘this is it and there is nothing more or less to it’, all the while using a patronising tone of 'its clear' and 'obvious' and 'I cant make you understand more'. I find this approach dangerous and quite misleading. Those hadeeths make no sense, unless you substantiate them with a context and an explanation. Also, unless you’re claiming to have learned the hadeeth science and Islam in an academic context, I don’t think you should be presenting hadeeths here and there to support an argument that’s completely unrelated. This is commonsense! While I believe your intentions are good, I have seen your arrogance take over sometimes. It would also be of some benefit, if you included links in your quotes so people can further look into it (and check your source if it’s the internet for various sites are purposely misleading albeit genuine looking to some1 who doesn’t really have the Islamic text or some1 to verify it otherwise). Otherwise, Illahay qofna kama xigtid, and I don’t have to believe what you write. Allah swt is a loving God and he forgives and doesn’t punish his people unnecessarily. The Quran is full of examples of the power God possesses and ill-fate that has befallen those who have gone stray. So there is nothing new here and nothing related to this discussion. Furthermore, it was you who questioned the hadeeth I posted with: quote: Are you sure deformity referred to transformation into animals Rahima? Cuz I thought it meant deformation in physical features due to illness and other genetic and natural defects. So I elaborated and gave more specific hadiths and proof from the Quran! Nothing more dear . In future perhaps you should be following the sequence of the posts more closely- it would make more sense See my sister, when I questioned that hadeeth, you didn’t explain it and you went on to gimme more stray hadeeth (and then even retracted one as you couldnt elucidate it nor verify the authenticity). This comes across as deflecting my question and bombarding me with a lot of hadeeth that are STRAY and not interconnected. A person of cilm would easily support the above statement and provide details of the same hadeeth and then only substantiate it with further hadeeth. I personally found your quotes out of context. I simply dont have the time to find the context at the moment but since its you who quotes them, this should be your exercise I’m not in anyway trying to discredit you. This has been a good exercise for me for I had to once again go and re-read the science of hadeeth and other related articles.(some of which have been quoted but not referenced). p.s. Just incase the word stray was misunderstood... I meant random, not stray as in out of the scope of Islam.

BOB.. Nice Story. Cant wait to see who wins the awards. * , nudge* I know you've intentionally portrayed me as 'threatening'... be scared boy...be very scared.

Any recording must be authentic and sufficiently intelligible for it to be used as an evidence What makes you think it isnt? Brother, whichever way you look at it, you cant argue whats on video and infront of ur eyes.

^ On what grounds Stoic?

^What are you defending? 1. The footage was clear on CCTV. 2. He was seen attacking some1 out of the blue and attempting to rape her. 3. A level of damage was incurred by the victim as evident in the footage. 4. A bypasser stopped him from completely committing the crime. Evident: Intention + Partial crime.

^^ Sad people. 09:30 - Left the house 10:00 - Still at bus stop waiting for the damn bus. 10:05 - Returned home in desperation n called for a cab. 10:30 - Got into work. 12:30 - Went out for friday lunch and baking in the sun. 15:00 - Got back into the office 2 shades darker n in good spirits. 17:00 - Left the office. 18:00 - Home. 19:00 - (now) Trying to avoid the family n discussions about moving!

Rahima, please stop quoting stray hadeeths and the Quran. This story is a hoax. No1 is questioning the infinite capibilities of Allah swt. We dont need to blv in these kind of stories (there r far better examples of natural calamities and human suffering right infront of us)or to prove them right by quoting hadeeth. We can just about support anything these days with hadeeth. But Hadeeth is contextual and has various levels of application and you cannot just quote a little snip here and there.